Interesting Pocket Conversion

[Dusty Morningwood]

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I looked at this for a few days and then decided to pass.

http://www.antiqueguns.com/auction/item.cgi?robles/robles-37488

Kind of cool, though.

[Mako]

Dusty,
I've found the best deals to be had and on the pistols in the best condition are the '49s (we're speaking of Colt percussion revolvers).  There were more of those produced than any other model and they are in better condition because most of them were put in drawers at home, in a traveling bag or by the money till.  Conversions aren't uncommon, but you can probably find more percussion models in better condition. I've seen some that I don't think were ever shot once they left the factory, and they were owned by individuals not in collections.

Belt pistols and horse pistols were used, or more likely just carried a lot and they wore and got rusty.  But, Great Grandaddy's '49 was kept in an underwear drawer and years later inherited by his kids who in turn put it in a drawer.

This one is pitted, you can get one without pitting and even some of the original finish intact for less than $1,000, $750 if you're patient. There won't ever be anymore and you can't touch an 1851 or 1860 for twice to three times the price of a '49 in better condition.

Not a bad starting price, not GREAT either, but a well executed and complete conversion. I wonder what it will go for?

~Mako

[Dusty Morningwood]

Might go for the No Reserve price of $425.

[Matt Bastardson]

I believe that many of the purportedly 'original' 1849 pocket Colts (and variations) now for sale are actually fakes.  You have to be very careful when tempted to spend real money on 1849's, and make sure that you match the hallmarks and lettering to a 'T' to at least one well-documented original...and preferably more.  Especially on the 'London' versions.  The forgers usually make their mistakes in the lettering & hallmarks, because those are more difficult to reproduce /exactly/ and accurately.

They sure have the antiquing part down pat, though.

I'm not saying that this one is or isn't fake, as I haven't bothered to check it out.  But I'd approach every 1849 Colt as being fake, and then attempt to prove that it isn't, rather than vice-versa.

[Mako]

I believe that many of the purportedly 'original' 1849 pocket Colts (and variations) now for sale are actually fakes.  You have to be very careful when tempted to spend real money on 1849's, and make sure that you match the hallmarks and lettering to a 'T' to at least one well-documented original...and preferably more.  Especially on the 'London' versions.  The forgers usually make their mistakes in the lettering & hallmarks, because those are more difficult to reproduce /exactly/ and accurately.

They sure have the antiquing part down pat, though.

I'm not saying that this one is or isn't fake, as I haven't bothered to check it out.  But I'd approach every 1849 Colt as being fake, and then attempt to prove that it isn't, rather than vice-versa.

jc,
This is interesting, what are you basing this on?  I’ve never read a warning coming from the CCA that ‘49s were targets for counterfeiting.  They are too “common.”  Martial arms with high wear have been the targets.

'49s are the most common Colt percussion available to the collector.  They can be had in NRA Very Good to NRA  Excellent condition for very reasonable sums.   If you are a collector or an antiques dealer that has access to some reports that we are unaware of, it would be very helpful to us to know about these problems.

Documents from Colt are easy to obtain, all you have to do is supply them a serial number and pay the fee.  Because of that they are not suitable for authentication. For identification there are  guides for the collector with all of the markings well illustrated.

Regards,
Mako

[Matt Bastardson]

Well, take the above 1849 revolver for instance.  It's missing some of the "well illustrated" markings (serial numbers), and the barrel address is gone.  Now, why do you think that is? (missing serial number -- on frame).  Where's the conversion proof mark?  Do you mean to say that a private smith converted the gun with all of the work that that entails, and then didn't mark it?

So in this instance, you can't match the barrel address lettering against a known original for the exact structure of each letter.  And the finish on the grip looks awful shiny for a 160 year old gun to me.  The three screw ends in the frame aren't flush on the right side and the screw heads aren't set flush on the right side....why is that?  Do you mean to say that nobody knows enough to put the screws in all the way?.  The pitting on the cylinder and frame looks 'odd'.  How did that happen?  Are we to presume that blood was spattered on that area and left for years to pit it?  Who cleaned the rust off if that indeed happened, and when?  What's that black on the brass?  Have you ever seen brass get black patches like that while the rest is relatively clean?  And why isn't that cleaned off if the blood rust was cleaned off?  Old brass turns a golden color and then slowly gets duller and duller.  This brass just looks 'wrong'.

All in all, this gun looks rather suspicious to me.  Not that it's not a cool 1849.... it is.  And if you can get it for cheap, fake or not, it'd still be cool to own.  But an 'original' 1849 Colt?  I wouldn't bet on it.

As for the number of fakes....there has been talk for over 10 years that the 1849's are a prime fake market.  Ask yourself this....Where do these same dealers keep getting all of these 1849's from one after the other?  Great Grandma's panties drawer? One every once in a while is one thing.  A steady supply, one right after the other being offered by the same dealer is another thing entirely, and makes me believe that someone is producing them for them, i.e. they're fakes.

And what is the easiest item and most lucrative to fake?  Something that there is purportedly 'plenty' of, but they are pricey.  That means a steady influx won't raise suspicion, and there is good money to be made.

You're not thinking like a forger.  You've got to think like a forger to spot fakes.

(And are you aware that you can get unmarked parts and kits for 1849's from the Italian factories?)

Oh, and the absolutely hardest thing to fake is 160 years of wear, accurately.   You hope that the forgers get lazy or sloppy on the markings, but you look at the finish and wear for more clues if they don't.

[Mako]

jc,
Valid points, are you a collector or a dealer?
`Mako

[Matt Bastardson]

Scroll down on the above auction to almost the bottom of the page and read #3 pertaining to fakes and alterations.  #2 is also interesting, referring to "collectible" rather than 'antique'.

I'd also be interested in hearing theories from anyone on how purported 'blood spatter' can land on the cylinder, covering all around it, and on the lower left side of the frame too, and not cover the barrel also.

Take a look at the closeups of the grip.  The large area of discoloration/blackening (purportedly from gun oil) at the top of the grip is not consistent with wear (it's uneven and splotchy rather than evenly soaked into the wood from one direction, i.e. frame/grip junction), and it doesn't run down the back of the grip evenly where the grip touches the metal as is usually found on an actual old grip that has seen repeated cleaning/oiling of the gun over the years.  Instead there's a space with nothing, then a large splotch at the radius, and then virtually nothing again running down the entire back length of the grip.  It looks fishy.

[Matt Bastardson]

jc,
Valid points, are you a collector or a dealer?
`Mako

Nope, just someone quite familiar with firearms who doesn't like to get fooled   But mucho thanks for the compliment!  Not to say that I don't own several old guns....I do...but I'm not what I would call a 'collector'.  That takes the big bucks, usually

[Matt Bastardson]

Look at how clean some of those screw heads are, and how they don't match the surrounding metal wear and/or metal discoloration.  Take the screw at the bottom/butt of the gun for example.  Look at how dirty the grip is there (although rather shiny) and how beat up and dirty the brass is (although pretty clean in some areas), with the wood not nearly as beat up as the brass (?) and yet the screw head there looks like almost new bare metal.  Weird.  And not consistent with any wear that I can fathom.  In fact, when I clean old dirty guns the exact opposite happens, i.e. the metal stays dirty where it meets the grip because of the materials difference in height, not vice versa.

[Matt Bastardson]

Here's an example of an authenticated Civil War era 1849 Colt Pocket Model, complete with a 1920's authentication letter and verifiable history of ownership (although accompanied by a bogus family story of how it supposedly was used to shoot at John Wilkes Boothe on the night he shot Pres. Lincoln....which actually isn't uncommon i.e. 'bogus story' with these 'family owned' guns). 

Anyways, this a genuine article that we can look at...too bad there aren't more photos and closeups.  One thing that is noticed right away is the 5 digit serial number on the cylinder.  Another thing is the patina of the frame, cylinder and barrel....they all match.  Notice how although the gun is worn and old and the finish almost gone, there aren't all manner of beat marks all over it (just a few on the cylinder wedge as is appropriate).  Now, granted it's apparently been cased for a good portion of the intervening 160 years, as evidenced by the nice condition of the grips (as they should be), but this is a good example of an actual Civil War era gun that 'looks right' for where its purportedly been most of those years.

In other words, how can a non-cased gun be all pitted and beat to hell (or not) and still have a decent amount of finish on it, and yet a genuine and carefully cared for cased Colt 1849 pocket doesn't have any visible finish left?

The point is, these guns just don't magically appear, they have to have come from somewhere and to have been taken care of by somebody, and the people that have owned them usually have a story that goes with these old pieces to account for their existence.  Any supposed 'old' gun that can't be accounted for as to where its come from or been is immediately suspicious.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/200705A13.html

[Matt Bastardson]

And here's an example of an 1849 Colt Pocket Model that 'looks right' to me.  Yeah, somebody either reblued or replaced the screws, but so what....its the rest of the gun that matters, the replaced/reblued screws is just somebody 'fixing' it   I'd say this one is likely genuine.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=133576213

[Matt Bastardson]

Please don't take offense at this, but... some people just seem ripe for the picking for the forgers.  I've got some experience with both firearms and metal working over the past half-century, and I don't have to own a 1849 Pocket myself to know how to spot fakes and/or how relatively easy it is to fake old patinas on these pistols with the right equipment , chemicals, and motivation ($$$$), particularly if someone has been doing it for a long time.

I said that I wasn't a 'collector'.  I think my definition of 'collector' may be different than other people's.  I see a museum as a 'collector'.  And while my 'collection' might not impress some people, I'd certainly rather have it be called a 'collection' than an 'arsenal', and me a 'collector' rather than a 'gun nut'.

While there may have been lots of variations of the many many many Pocket Colts sold ...that just makes it all the easier (and lucrative) for the forgers.

The reason I see that some of these pistols don't sell for very much is because the 'collectors' generally see something that makes them doubt their authenticity.

I firmly believe that many many many of these purported 1849 Pockets are either Franken-Pistols (made up of parts of originals), reproductions that have been 'antiqued', and/or combinations of both the aforementioned.  Think about it....say your grandma pulls out a genuine 1849 Pocket from her undies drawer (unlikely) ...or finds a 1849 tucked up in the barn rafters (unlikely) ....do you mean to say that nobody inquires as to the history and origin of the pistol...and documents it before they try to sell it, knowing that that makes it all the more valuable, or do they just put it in an envelope and mail it to CashForAntiques.com and wait for their check?

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it that 'there are just tons of them out there'.  Approximately the same number of Peacemakers were made as Pocket Colts (although the Peacemakers were produced for 75 years vs. 22 years for the 1849 Pockets, and how often do you see original Peacemakers?  Not nearly as often as you see 1849's.  And it should be the reverse of that.

Anyways, I'm not trying to start a range war here, I'm just pointing out that a good portion of the time people who believe that they have 'original' anything -- don't, really.  And the ones that _do_ have the originals don't usually know what they're actually holding on to, as they've stumbled across it by accident or it's been passed down through the family.

How may people here know somebody who has discovered an old Colt Pocket Pistol hidden away somewhere?  Or a Peacemaker?  Not many I'll wager   So where do all of these 1849 Pocket Colts for sale come from?  (Not from collections, because the ones from collections mention what collection they're from.)

[Matt Bastardson]

By the by -- the reason that Colt sold so many 1849 Pocket Pistols in such a short time is because people carried them CCW, as even back then it was frowned on to be visibly packing heat, and illegal in many places to boot.  Even in the Wild West people didn't commonly go around town wearing sixguns in holsters like erroneously seen in the movies.  Instead they carried 1849 Pocket Pistols and other concealable arms.  So the thought that all of these 1849's have been idling away in a sock or underwear drawer for 160 years is false, and the reverse is true.  The 1849 Colts were everyday carry pistols, which makes it even less likely that there would be bunches of them around now in any worthwhile condition.

(Heck, back when the 1849's were being sold, 'holsters' for guns were relatively unheard of outside of the military, and it wasn't until later in the 1800's that holsters came into use, making it even _less_ likely that vast numbers of original 1849 Colts would have survived to the extent that they are being 'discovered' and sold now.)

[Matt Bastardson]

..... and I don't have to own a 1849 Pocket myself ......

I should clarify that.  I don't own any 'original' 1849's.  I do own a fake 1848 Baby Dragoon (the precursor to the 1849 Pocket) and a fake Colt Wells Fargo model (another variation of the 1849 pocket).

[Matt Bastardson]

Here's an interesting quote on the subject from (I presume) an expert on the subject:

"A typical value for a common variation in NRA antique good condition (see our links for definition) will run about $500, while one in fine may run $1200-1500. Modern made copies are widely available and often cost less than $300. Some have been sold as originals with or without any faking of markings, etc, so be very careful. Get a bill of sale from the seller stating that is an original made circa 1849-1872, and guaranteeing full refund if it is determined to be otherwise."

http://oldguns.net/q&a1_99.htm  (slightly more than halfway down the page)

These prices are from 1999 when the article was written.  I don't imagine its (fake market) gotten better in the intervening 10 years, since my recollection is that 1999 was right around the time the fake market for these 1849 Colts really began in earnest.

[Mako]

Ok jc, I guess you win...

Have a nice evening,
Mako

[Matt Bastardson]

LOL!  It isn't, or never was, about "winning" or "losing", but rather it was about the facts pertaining to the preponderance of fakes these days being passed off as 'original' old arms, and how 'buyer beware' is the rule rather than the exception in the used gun market, particularly when it comes to 1800's period guns.

And for the record, I knew mine were fakes when I got them, since I paid <$100 for each one, (and I in fact created my fake 1849 .31 Wells Fargo snubnose, complete with fake Wells Fargo markings).

[Matt Bastardson]

You misunderstand. We know who the fake is here.  And it's not the guy with the originals you think you have beaten.  I was laughing because it is so obvious even he just walked away from it. I've never seen him that, neither has anyone else. Now we know why you seem to know so much about fakes, you admit to making them.

The difference being that I make/made them for myself, and not for sale, to profit, or deceive.  And I use old beater replica guns that are ready for the trash can anyways, so it's not like I'm destroying actual collectible pieces (unless you happen to collect beater replica guns).

The point is, if I can do it, you can bet your bottom dollar that there are plenty of people out there with much more talent then I have who can do it even better than I can ever accomplish, and have no compunctions against profiting from their efforts at the expense of others.

I don't understand why that is such a hard concept for some to grasp.  But apparently it is.

[Matt Bastardson]

I don't understand why that is such a hard concept for some to grasp.  But apparently it is.

I take that back.  I believe I know what the problem is here.  Your own ego's apparently won't let you admit that you may, in fact, have been fooled into buying forgeries yourselves, and those treasured 'original' 1849 Pocket Model Colts that you believe you own ..... aren't.

[Matt Bastardson]

Here's my 1849 Colt Wells Fargo snubbie, complete with low-profile brass front sight and bobbed hammer.  Now, I'm not even that good.  Imagine what somebody can do who has some real talent.

[Dalton Masterson]

This is an interesting thread, but I wish the pics of the pistol in question were still on here.
The only real Colt I have is a Root model, and I dont doubt it is real in the least.
DM

Edit. Changed pic for better view of a faked antique.

[Matt Bastardson]

Except for the fact that there is no Colt Root Model revolver in the photo? 


(That's odd that the link that started this thread now points to a different gun.)

You're in luck though....as I still had a browser tab open to that web page.  Let me see if I can post the photos for you (and posterity).

[Matt Bastardson]

Does anybody know what this gun finally sold for?  Because fake or not, $425-$500 isn't a bad price.  I can't hardly make one for that price LOL!


More photos of that gun:

[Matt Bastardson]

Here's the description that went with it:

------------------------------------------------------
079-SALE-3543B, Colt Model 1849 Pocket Non-Factory Cartridge Conversion .32 CF, Revolver, Description: Made in 1853 and later converted for centerfire cartridges. Pin and notch sights, loading lever removed and plugged, ejector mounted to lower right side of barrel, no frame markings, Stagecoach cylinder scene, \"X\" on left trigger guard shoulder and smooth grips. No number on frame, partial on barrel, wedge stuck, all other numbers match. Condition: Good. The blue and casehardened parts have been cleaned to a flat gray, barrel address is gone, with patches of fine blood pitting and mild handling marks. 20% of the original silver is visible on the grip straps. Grips have been oiled, with mild dings and varnish loss. Action is very good. 81xxx matching on bottom of gun, cylinder and I could not pop wedge. Good overall.
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And more photos of the gun in question: