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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: The test: smokeless loads in an original 45-75 1876 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The test: smokeless loads in an original 45-75 1876  (Read 1860 times)
daxbax
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« on: April 28, 2009, 08:52:07 pm »


Hello guys, anybody remembere my experience with the original 45-75 1876? http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24676.0.html

...so it's time to make some serious load and shoots.

I made some shoots by use of smokeless Vithavuori N133 powder.

The configuration of the shoots was identically in primer, brass and bullet, for every shoot,  and these are:

magnum CCI primer, 300 grain bullet flat head,chaparral brass http://www.chaparralarms.com/specs/technicalspecs.htm.

the only thing that I ganged was the amount of powder, by increasing the weight of this.

Here the shoots that I made:

1 magnum CCI primer, 300 grains bullet flat head, 27 grains Vithavuori N133;
2 magnum CCI primer, 300 grains bullet flat head, 30 grains Vithavuori N133;
3 magnum CCI primer, 300 grains bullet flat head, 35 grains Vithavuori N133;
4 magnum CCI primer, 300 grains bullet flat head, 40 grains Vithavuori N133;
5 magnum CCI primer, 300 grains bullet flat head, 45 grains Vithavuori N133;

The proof:
I positioned a cilindrical steel empty gas tank that we in italy call "bombola" (the ones used in the home kitcens), at about 30 meeters. This is my empiric meter: If a hole it's made in this thing at this distance, you can kill someting like a Hog from Zero to about 70 metrs;

the first tree shoots was very powerless, no hole in the "bombola", no unburned powder and sounds like toys

the change happened when I overcam the weight of 39 grain in powder:

here a hole was made in one side and nothing in the other, no unburned, sounds good but not too much strong

4 was near the precedent, with some powder unburned
5 was the best result:
the shoot was very good, a hole in the first side and a hard dent in the other, but some amount of powder was unburned,more than the precedent shoot.

The rifle, that was ever positioned in a bracket for all the duration of the test to be safe, at the end, was "fresh" like a mountain rose, no weakenes, no meccanical yokes, nothing of nothing

This is the maximum load I ever used.
You can say that I'm crasy if I use, first smokeless and second this kind of load, but in real I used a simple empiric reasoning to be safe, that I show you for completeness

listen to me:

FFg or FFFg Black powder is more faster respect the N133 and it burns almost in totally when the bullet is near the point of start and the growing chamber (spaces between bullet and brass) is little, giving an higher start pressure than a slower rate and much progressive smokeless powder, altought smokeless have more strength than BP, but I don't have any kind of pressure mesure so the method I used is empiric and for correctness I can't tell that this is the real phisycs dynamics of the event, but it seems to be true;
after, this rifle was used for killing animals like grizzly bear and buffalo, that are mach stronger than a hog(this is story and Teddy Roosevelt teachs us),
so this rifle can support the power to do this, namely the sufficient load and the heavy bullets (I used the lighter one bullet to be safe);
So, if I start to make loads with a powder that has a slow burn rate respect Black powder (to be safe) and I stop wen I recognize that I can kill a hog (much weak than a buffalo or a grizzly, to be safe) , I'm soure that I'm still in safe.

So this was my thought that guided me to made this loads

So guys wat's about of you?

I think this was no dangerous, and effectively no damages was in the rifle, but I like to listen some free reflexion about, it's helpful to me,
so I'm gratefull if you all unleash yours thought

thank you
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Joe Lansing
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 10:52:07 pm »

Nice post. But what caliber are you loading?

                                J.L.
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daxbax
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 06:39:52 am »

Sorry... you right, the caliber is 45-75, and I added this in the previous post,

thank you
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daxbax
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2009, 05:47:05 am »

Ehi guys,

nobody has nothing to say?

no one has similar experiences to share?  anybody uses BP in this gun?

I don't belive that!

...SO COME ON  place your experiences!

these are very important for me! to understand the stregth of this gun by using smokeless.
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ndnchf
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2009, 09:29:16 am »

Patience my friend, not everyone checks this board daily.

Some of us shoot only the powder for which the rifle was designed.  And some shoot other cartridges besides the .45-75.
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Trailrider
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 10:28:28 am »

Howdy, Pard,
Yes, I have used smokeless powder in an original M1876.  I don't shoot any of the original guns very much, simply out of respect for their age and collector's value.  But it can be done, IF the right powder and charges are done.  I have not used Vhitavorhi powders for this.  In the first place, the rifle I shot was a .45-60, so any data I have won't translate directly to .45-75, but my recommendations are to use the slowest smokeless powder that will burn consistantly and keep the loads in the 400 m/sec (1320 ft/sec) range with a 350 grain bullet. I shot IMR4198 and IMR3031.  The IMR4198 loads utilized an over-powder filler consisting of single-ply toilet paper 2-inches (.78 cm) square poked GENTLY into the case, allowing the bullet to do whatever compressing it would.  Do NOT pack the paper down on top of the powder!  You may need to decrease the charge weight of the powder accordingly.

Of course, you need to be sure the gun is in good condition, with special attention paid to the toggle links, to be certain they are not cracked.

[As usual, I cannot assume responsibility for accidents or incidents resulting from the use of the above information.]

Ride careful, Pard!
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 12:22:35 pm »

I just checked a powder BURNING RATE CHART, from HANDLOADER, issue 183, p. 78.

N133 Vihtavuori is between IMR 4198 and H 4198 on the slow side, and N200 on the faster side.  Just something for a relative comparison.
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daxbax
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2009, 03:12:02 pm »

You rigth,
I used the N133 powder because is burnig rate it's near at the IMR4198 (N133 little bit lowest from this) and I know the IMR4198 is used in this rifle, but I used more powder than the charge used with the 4198 and empirically I obtain the load of 45 grain of N133 because the damage of the soot obtained is similar at the damage( from the same distance) caused of an 12 gauge charged with slug gualandi bullet
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john boy
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 05:14:48 pm »

Daxbax, I don't know if you have IMR XMP5744 in Europe.   But it is accurate.  23grs traveling at 1145fps in a 45-75,  using a 340gr bullet is 990.02 foot pounds of energy.  That is not too shabby and 23grs of this powder is on the low end of load chart
Here's a 100 yd target ...
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Regards
SHOTS Master John Boy

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MannitheGerman
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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 05:22:52 pm »

Ciao daxbax,
be very careful with your loads exeeding 43 grains of VV 133!!!  The QuickLoad program says, 43 grains is already too much! Preasure limit is 24.000 psi and 43 grains give 24.741 psi!! In an antique gun, I would at least reduce to 40 grains.
Iīd say, switch to VV 110 and use 20 to 25 grains. Those are a pleasure to shoot, very precise (22 grains, 300 grains soft lead bullet), donīt cost much and are safe.
Have fun.
Manni
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daxbax
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 03:03:40 pm »

Thank you Manny,
nice program, can you do the calculations with 75 grain of FFg BP, how many PSI  gives?
I can decres the charge to 43 grains, it's quite different for the effects.


thank you bye
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MannitheGerman
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2009, 04:41:48 pm »

Hi daxbax,
I am sorry, my QuickLoad doesnīt show black powder loads or preasures, only nitro powder.
Ciao
Manni
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john boy
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2009, 10:38:43 pm »

Quote
nice program, can you do the calculations with 75 grain of FFg BP, how many PSI  gives?
Daxbax, an $800 US instrument that is not a common purchase to measure PSI is called a Strain Gauge

And trying to pour 75gr of FFg into a 45-75 case without doing a double compression is impossible.  Voice of experience, having tried it.  And remember that a '76 is just a bigger '73 ... toggle links are are the weakest part of both rifles

Here is some recommended loading data for original gunpowder, including the 1876 ... http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html
Give velocity but no CUP or PSI

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Regards
SHOTS Master John Boy

WartHog ...
Brevet 1st Lt, Scout Company, Department of the Atlantic
SASS  ~  SCORRS ~ OGB with Star

Devote Convert to BPCR
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: The test: smokeless loads in an original 45-75 1876 « previous next »
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