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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderator: Cuts Crooked)  |  Topic: Question about ffg vs fffg in a 45 colt 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Question about ffg vs fffg in a 45 colt  (Read 2663 times)
Wagon Box Willy
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« on: March 15, 2009, 08:42:34 pm »


Howdy Pards,

I will be loading some 45 colts for use in my R&D 1858 and I was wondering which size will produce less recoil for the same load by volume?  I would have to run to the store to get the ffg but that's no big deal.  Which would be best?  No rifle or shotgun at this time.

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   Willy
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Silver Creek Slim
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 09:10:08 pm »

FFg will produce less velocity. Hence, less recoil.

Slim
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 07:44:41 am »

Howdy Willy,

Silver Creek Slim knows.  He just don't say much, so I'll ask the obvious.  Are you talking Genuine Powder, Holy Black, the Original Gunpowder called Black Powder here, or a sub/replica.  It does make a difference.  Some act differently by granulation.

Now, if you are asking about black powder here, Slim's answer is right and it also holds true for most sub/replicas also.  The 45 Caliber is more or less the traditional transition point between FFFg and FFg.  Smaller than 45 Cal does better with FFFg and larger than 45 Caliber is usually better off with FFg.  Your 45 Caliber gun can go either way.

If you want a snappier load with more oomph, go with FFFg.  If mild recoil is desired, FFg will do your work.  Both are "correct", neither is wrong and both have different external ballistics.  Now, if you're thoroughly confused, start with what you have on hand, take notes and enjoy the smoke.  I prefer FFFg in the 45 "Long" Colt for my own loads, but then that's for my Warthog moods.

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Wagon Box Willy
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 08:29:25 am »

Right now I'm shooting Goex fffg in the cap and ball cylinder of my lone gun, a Pietta NMA.  I bought some reloading equipment and have loaded a few rounds with Trail Boss.  I intend on using smokeless for indoor shooting mostly.  So now I want to load the BP and I was just looking for an excuse to buy new powder Smiley

I'm a real noob at this and while I'd order a set of guns for making smoke at CAS tomorrow my wife is major anti gun so I'm not sure I'll ever own more than one Sad

Thanks
   Willy
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 06:26:26 pm »

I'd start out with ffg in the 45 Colt Long cartridge.  It has a lot of volume and a full load off ffg is more than enough for a stout load.  If you want to excersise your wrist, by all means stuff it with fffg and prepare for a rigorous recoil from the handgun.

Just my $.02 worth
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 06:59:53 pm »

Ho Dog,

Ya gonna shoot at the Rock River Regulators opener?  I heard that RRR can't get there, but let's us, you and me, smoke up the stages.  I'll bring my ROAs and shoot Warthog 45 Colts and my 10ga SxS.  Let's serve notice!  No mosquitoes need apply!!

DD-DLoS
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john boy
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 07:16:58 pm »

Quote
If you want to excersise your wrist, by all means stuff it with fffg and prepare for a rigorous recoil from the handgun.
+1 for Pukin Dog!  Scrool down to the table ...  http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/st_0301_blackpowder/ - and this is with FFg!
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Wagon Box Willy
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 07:51:53 pm »

Thanks for that article.  I will pick up some ffg.  The R&D instructions would have the muzzle velocity limited to 600-700fps but other Pards say the gun should handle a full cartridge which by that article is 900+fps

I tend to believe that R&D has quite a bit of safety margin built in.  What do you folks say?

   Willy



 
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Adirondack Jack
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 10:43:49 pm »

A lighter load will mean less wear and tear on the gun.  Lighter bullets would help in that regard as well.
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 11:01:35 pm »

R&D and Kirst both have sufficient safety margin to be rated for smokeless powder, so don't worry about fffg being to much for the gun, it's up to your tolerance for recoil.
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Driftwood Johnson
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 11:37:29 pm »

Howdy

I don't know why R&D puts that limit for Black Powder in their cylinders because they can take a cowboy load of smokeless, which will generate more pressure than any amount of Black Powder you can stuff in the case.

I have two Remmies equiped with R&D cylinders, one is a fairly modern Uberti, the other is an old EuroArms Remmie I bought way back around 1975. Long before R&D cylinders existed. The Uberti is noticeably bigger than the old EuroArms gun. The EuroArms gun is more like the actual size of the original Remmies, the Uberti is a tad oversized. Actually, although the cylinder will take it, I don't much like shooting a 45 Colt case full of BP in my old EuroArms Remmie. The recoil is a bit uncomfortable. I can shoot that load in my Colts all day long, but it seems to kick a bit more in the Remmie, to the point of being uncomfortable. The other thing is, I don't much like stressing the frame of my old Remmie. If you think about it, when fired as a C&B gun, the Remmies don't see anywhere near as much pounding as they do with cartridges. A 44 cal ball only weighs around 150 or 160 grains, about as much as a 38 bullet. Bullet weight is a major component of recoil. A 200 or 250 grain bullet is going to develop more recoil and more pounding of the gun. With a percussion clyinder you will seldom put more than 30 grains of powder in the chamber. 30 grains of powder with a 160 grain ball generated much less recoil and pounding of the mechanism than a 250 grain bullet and 35 grains of powder. I particularly don't like stressing the portion of the frame where the loading lever pierces the frame. The cross section of metal is very thin there. While I'm sure the frame will stand up to a C&B load forever, I just think it's a different story with a 250 grain bullet generating a whole lot more recoil.

Which is exactly why Wild Bill Peterson and I invented the J/P 45-200 grain Big Lube bullet. I was looking for something lighter than the then available 250 grain PRS bullet, and Wild Bill wanted a bit less recoil in his pistols too. I had my R&D cylinders altered to accept the 45 Schofield cartridge, with its larger rim. Your cylinder may accept it without any alteration. My normal load for my old EuroArms Remmie is about 28 grains of FFg behind the J/P 45-200 bullet in a 45 Schofield case. Very mild load, I can shoot it all day.

You might want to try it.
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 11:56:23 pm »

  The only time I bothered to chrono black powder loads in my five and one half inch SAA clones I showed a whopping thirty fps increase with the fffg over the ffg. I could not feel the difference in recoil. Doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that the difference was slight. This was full, heavily compressed stuff.

 On a cloudy day you get a bigger flame with more sparks with ffg. While the shootin' iron will take a full load there is no particular reason to go through all the trouble to load 37 (or more) grains of BP and a 250 grain bullet. After all, the Army dropped it's load to 28 grains behind a 230 grain bullet, I believe with a cork wad to take up the extra space. I have loaded that 28 grains with a little scoop of dry grits because I'm fresh out of .45 caliber cork wads. Oddly, the same folks complaining that full charge black powder loads are "too powerful" say the same thing about the 28 grain loads. Oh well, some folks like pop-time, I like BOOM-CLANG.
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Paladin UK
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 02:59:58 pm »

Just ta add...........

FFg and my squdged DD ROA gives a 1/2in tighter 5 rd group at 25 mtrs (From the shoulder) in my .45LC Rossi than FFFG, Ned noticed that it wuz LESS smokey too  Roll Eyes Now I dont know iffn thats good or bad, bein a Soot Lord `n all!!


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Wagon Box Willy
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 03:40:56 pm »

Thanks Pards,

First, I made the ill informed assumption that because the R&D instructions talked about Cowboy loads and 600-700fps that I could assume that BP loads which exceed 600-700fps were unsafe.  I think what I just read was they were really talking about that velocity achieved by smokeless pressures and that does not correlate to BP.

That being said, I now see that I made yet another newbie mistake and purchased 250grain bullets.  I guess I'll have to shoot them up before I get some lighter, BP bullets like the J/P 45-200.

I did load the starting load of Trail Boss with the 250 grain and it was really light.  As a matter of fact both my reload and my factory Winchester Cowboy w/250 grain bullets felt lighter than my 25 grain Goex fffg C&B loads but that could all be in my head....but is why I selected the 250 grain bullet because it was the only one I had any experience with.

Thankfully my mistakes haven't been too costly yet  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2009, 11:04:23 am »

The biggest difference, I noticed was the heat. Shooting loads with Goex FFg vs., Goex FFFg the guns were much hotter. Even after the first six shots, you could feel the difference in temperature. Same was true of Graf and Sons FFg. Iím guessing itís from the extra air (oxygen) in the case due to the larger grains: but, thatís just speculation.

I did not notice a temperature change between FFFg, Cowboy and Cartridge.

Bruce
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