Welcome ta the Grassy Knoll--a not so stoopid thread 'bout con speer a see

[Leo Tanner]

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This started somewhere else but is kinda innerestin.  The gubberment should love it   Not everybody likes ta be fed with a spoon, some of us like ta dig in with a fork an knife

     This one may be hard ta take, but research shows the Japs were ready ta surrender after the relenless fire bombing of Tokyo.  The papers were already drafted before either of the A-bombs dropped.  The Enola Gaye's mission was ta show the rest of the werld what we could do even though it was unnecessary.  I aint sayin they didn't deserve it, but most have been told a differnt story as ta how we avoided a costly Marine invasion.  We sure skeered the piss outta a lot of countries, but the napalm and phospherous had already done the job as far as the war went.


Leo

[Texas Lawdog]

The military was afraid of the amount of casualities that would occur if the US had to invade Japan. They felt that the Japanese would fight in every part of the country. The A bombs were used instead of the invasion and they saved the lives of thousands of miltary people that would be wounded or killed in a full-scale invasion of Japan.

[Delmonico]

I've heard they wanted terms, took the rest to get rid of the terms.  If they were really ready to surrender why did they not do it, why did it take so dern long?  Just a rumor started by the "Americans are Bad" groups that like to make the whole US look bad. 

[Leo Tanner]

Well, based on those two replies we can call that one debunked.

     Personally I don't believe there ever would have been a land invasion.  The air attacks had become a turkey shoot by that time.  Folks weren't sayin America was bad back then, we'd saved too many butts.  I see credibility in the idea that we had ta make a statment that said "NOBODY EVEN GET THE IDEA OF PULLING THIS CRAP AGAIN".  Think about it.  Hirohito was really starting to question his advisors once he realized that there were no gods that would forever thwart invasion of any sort on their little island.  The devine wind of the Mongolian attempt was a fluke of weather, and we had made that apparent.


Leo

[Delmonico]

One must also remember, we knew Japan and Germany both had nucler projecs too, we new we had Germany's taken care of, we also knew Germany had transfered some to Japan.  How much and how far along they were was a crap shoot.  For everyone who thinks what we did was wrong, should think about what would have happened if either of them had got it first.

For that reason alone we would have had to invade.

And one must remember, after the first one it took a second three days later to get them to give up.  Never heard anything that said they got on the air waves, and said, "We Give Up, Don't Drop Another One."

[Digger]

Hi Y'all,

During those last few days in Japan there were coups and counter-coups, failed overtures, in other words, the very picture of a govt in free fall.

One of my favorite conspiracies is that Truman told Stalin at Potsdam we had an A-bomb that worked, but Stalin refused to believe him.  So, Truman arranged a practical demonstration.  Why not invite the Rooskies to Los Alamos?  1.  You don't invite your next potential adversary to your most secret base where the demo may or may not work.  2.  The conspiracy doesn't work if you do.


Thanks,
Digger

[Ozark Tracker]

but then along came Korea,  and instead of droppin anything big,  they drew a line in the sand, 38th paralle,  every thing since that time has come at the price of drawing the line, everybody keeps trying to push our line a little further back, Russia with the missle crisis in early 60's, we were a heartbeat away from both sides goin at it. several times through the last 60 years, should we have won something instead of just being satisfied with what we got.
I ain't sayin it wasn't the right thing to do at the time, but,   will it end with our new President  or maybe not him but another on down the line  just giving things away without the line  in the sand being drawn.

seems like we've come a long way on the wrong street.

[Leo Tanner]

Keep in mind, I didn't say we did anything wrong.  All I'm saying is that it is a world leader's job ta look inta the future upon every decision.  Germany didn't get the hammer, plenty of men were sacrificed on the way there,  a string of islands way out in the south Pacific did.  Good way ta study the after effects without destroying an international center of commerce.  Japan had kept themselves isolated from western dealings to this point (other than the business with hitler).

     I guess you could say I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I'm certainly no hippie, I just like hearing what you all have to say on matters that have been bounced around throughout history.


Leo   

[Digger]

Hi Y'all,

Concerning Korea, we now know that after he was elected Eisenhower, you know, the guy who put Hitler in his grave, sent Mao a personal note instructing him that this war was over or he, Eisenhower, would personally come kick his, Mao's, ass with atomic weapons.  The Chinese were at the bargaining table before Eisenhower was sworn in.


Digger

[Texas Lawdog]

The Japanese needed oil to run their war machine. There was a large amount of oil in the Indonesia and Micronesia and they decided to take it. They had to get the American Pacific Fleet out of the way to accomplish this. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a plan to destroy the entire Pacific Fleet. The carriers were not in Pearl Harbor which was lucky. The Japanese had assumed that the carriers would be there.  The battleships weren't the threat to them like the carriers were. They had planned to destroy the US carriers in order to have complete control of the Pacific ocean.

[Leo Tanner]

Wich leads ta another widely bounced around theory.  The one that says FDR knew about the Pearl invasion well in advance an let it happen ta get us out of the Depression and give us a reason ta declare war on Germany shortly after.  The folks behind this one site the carrier menuvers on that day as evidence that it was not a surprise.  They say it's too much of a cooincidence.

     I don't buy it cause even if Roosevelt had ulterior motives he and the joint cheifs would have found ways to have the rest of the fleet more prepared and still been able to say, "hey, they attacted us" with much fewer casualties.  He didn't keep this country going fer 4 terms by doing things like allowing the destruction of men who had sworn to protect it as well as the ships we needed to go to war.  Still, there is a large contingancy of folks who believe it.


Leo

[Texas Lawdog]

Roosevelt was well aware of the coun try still being in a Depression. The US had been helping England indirectly with the Lend-Lease policy of lending them  old surplus WW1 destroyers to supplement the British Navy. They also allowed US pilots to fly for the RAF during the Battle of Britan. I don't the US diplomats really believed that Japan would attack the US. The attack on Pearl Harbor enraged the people in America that war was declared against Japan the next day. The US concentrated on the Pacific theater at first because the Pacific Fleet was almost wiped out and the west coast was a prime candidate for invasion. The Japanese had agents operating inHawaii prior to the attack and had made detailed plans of Pearl Harbor. The Japanese believed that the Aircraft Carrier was the main Naval weapon and not the Battleship. The attack on Pearl Harbor proved how vunerable the Battleship was to aerial bombardment and torpedo attacks.

[Arcey]

Don’t think the Japs did the job well enough. After several successful engagements, the repaired West Virginia would be in Tokyo Bay when the surrender was accepted aboard the Missouri. Why in the blue hell they didn’t conduct the business of surrender aboard WV is way outtah my pay grade. I’d ah rubbed their collective noses slam in it.

She was scraped. The bastards. She was livin’ history.

Ain’t goin’ on a rant as I did with Washington. ‘Nuff said.

[Leo Tanner]

That certainly would've made the moment more special Arcey.  Us lazy Americans patched up quite a few warships which went on ta fight successfuly.  Did a job fer an old guy once who had the walls of one room covered with maps an pitchers.  They were of the ship he served on an the maps showed all the engagements.  Can't remember the name of the boat, but at one point the entire bow had been blown off.  They built a makeshift one outta wood and sailed her home.  I wouln'ta balieved it if I hadn't seen the old photos.  I think it was a destroyer, but I could be wrong.


Leo

[Texas Lawdog]

They moved the Missouri back to Pearl and now it's part of the Pearl Harbor Museum.  I know that the North Carolina is moored at Wilmingon and the Alabama is at Mobile. We have the Texas at Houston. The Texas was in WW1 as well as WW2.  It's a shame that more of these great ships weren't preserved as museums.

[Leo Tanner]

They scrapped the mothball fleet recently.  It's strange ta drive 680 over the bridge inta the bay area and not see em there anymore.


Leo

[Arcey]

The people of the state bought Carolina. Not a penny of tax money in her. Been on board several times. New Jersey is in Camden. Iowa is in limbo.

Arizona ‘n Utah are in Pearl.

Wisconsin is here, downtown. The area of deck, teak, from Missouri where the papers were signed is on display in the MacArthur Memorial a couple blocks away. Many a chili dog from sidewalk vendors found their reward, me, in the court yard at MacArthur or by the Wisconsin.

Been on Iowa ‘n Wisconsin. Been on the Stennis before she left for the west coast. Stennis is awesome but it’s apples ‘n oranges.

There aren’t goin’ to be anymore battleships. Sad we couldn’t have kept a few more. Especially ones with the war records of West Virginia ‘n Washington.

No disrespect intended towards those I didn’t mention.

[Leo Tanner]

I toured the Enerprise when I was a kid.  Have no idea when it was commisioned.  It were in active duty an set up fer jets.  Had an E-2 Hawkeye radar spinnin round above the bridge.  We got ta walk the flight deck an then go below.  Good show, but bein a little guy I had expected ta see what I knew from the pitchers Dad had shown me.  They had some Corsaire II's on deck an I wanted ta see the REAL ones. 


Leo

[Texas Lawdog]

That Enterprise was commissioned in 1944.

[Leo Tanner]

Thanks.  I'll remember that.
     Another field triip we got ta go ta Nasa's Aimes Reserch Center in Sunnyvale er there abouts.  I was a lucky kid when it got ta seein them things.  Little girl in our class' daddy worked there.  Saw the prototype fer the Harrier an a bunch of other neat stuff.  Testing facillities fer astronauts an such.  Had lunch with the guys in jump suits, I was in Heaven I tell ya


Leo

[Texas Lawdog]

Moose and I toured the NASA facility south of Houston one time and I toured the NASA outfit in Huntsville, Ala. I got to take a tour inside of one the Shuttles which was interesting.  I wanna go to Charleston SC and tour the ships anchored in the harbor and tour Ft. Sumpter. I don't know which ships or how many are there other than the Yorktown.

[Ozark Tracker]

went to Charleston in about 92 on a bail bond jumper,  had a few hours to kill so I went on the harbor tour,  the little boat we were on went around the harbor and ships and out by Ft. Sumpter.  took the tour on land of the land side of the harbor, was really fun.  wisht I'd had more time to take the induvidual tours.

have a friend, went through all of school with him, including college,   that works for NASA down at Cape Canaveral,  hopin one of these days to be able to go down there and take the tour, 

here's a link to him,  Dennis Chamberland, his latest underwater project is set, right now to begin in 2011 or 2012, to set a record underwater,  He has invited Jackie and I to come down to Florida, if at all possible and take the dive to the habitat and spend a night with him and his wife in the habitat.  it would be the chance of a lifetime to do something like that, hope we're able at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Chamberland

[Texas Lawdog]

Leo, I got my Carriers mixed up the Enterprise was commissioned in 38 instead of 44. The 2nd Lexington was commissoned in 44. The first Lexington was sunk in the Battle of the Coral Sea in 42. The 2nd Lexingon was made into a Museum in Corpus Chrisit, Texas. The Hornet, the carrier that carried the 16 B 25s to bomb Tokyo was also sunk in 42 during the battle of Santa Cruz.

[Texas Lawdog]

A second USS Hornet was commisoned in 43 and was decommissoned in 70. It is anchored at Alameda, Calif. as a Museum.

[Leo Tanner]

I remeber seeing footage of the 25s taking off from the carrier for the first time.  It was somethin.  I think they used a lot of that real footage in 30 Seconds Over Tokyo.  I'll have ta find it and look at it again.


Leo