Range Report on New Lightning and SA's

[Blackpowder Burn]

Well, I got my new USFA battery into action yesterday.  I received the new Lightning I found on Gunbroker, and took it with the new SA's (all in 44-40) to the range to see if they lived up to all the praise I've heard about USFA products.  I'm happy to say that they all did. 

The SA's shot to point of aim.  When shooting duelist at 10 yards, both shot about 2-inch groups with my warthog loads.  Can't ask for anything better than that!

I was a bit nervous about the Lightning, after all the negative comments I'd heard about the generic design from all the local "experts".  I'm very happy to report that the experts were dead wrong - At least as far as the USFA Lightning is concerned!  I put about 150 rounds through it, and it functioned flawlessly.  Contrary to what I was told, you do not have to stroke these rifles "hard and fast" to get them to function.  As long as you simply cycle the action completely to the end of the stroke, they run beautifully.

The only negative about the rifle is that is shoots about 4" high at 25 yards, even with the rear sight at its lowest setting.  I'll fix that by installing a Marbles tang sight.  I've already got that on order from Buffalo Arms.  The only remaining issue is to find a lighter mainspring, or get a good gunsmith to lighten the one in the rifle - the trigger pull is extremely heavy, although quite smooth.  Both small things that are easily fixed.

Overall opinion - all three guns are outstanding examples of craftmanship.  They are beautiful, function flawlessly and are very accurate.  Again - what else could you possible ask for?

By the way, I'll throw in a plug here for the two dealers who supplied my battery.
1. Long Hunter Shooters Supply.  I purchased the SA's from him.  Very nice, extremely professional, and first class work.
2.  Frank Delaney at Frank's Vintage Firearms.  He put the lightning up for bid on Gunbroker and was a pleasure to deal with.

Now - off to the local SASS match this weekend!

[Doc Sunrise]

Thanks for the range report.  I know you will be happy.  Let me know how you end up lightening the main spring or trigger pull.

Doc

[Blackpowder Burn]

I spoke to Banjoman this afternoon, and he knows of no aftermarket springs.  I'll have to take it to our local "cowboy" gunsmith and get him to grind down the spring to lighten it.  I think I'll purchase a couple of spares to have on hand just in case there is a problem.

From what Banjoman said, there were only about 400 Lightnings produced by USFA commercially.  I feel very fortunate to have acquired one at a "reasonable" price.  Now I just have to convince my wife of the definition of reasonable............    She wants me to hang it on the wall and look at it so it won't get scratched.  Now what good is a gun you can't shoot? 

[Advertising]

[August]

I warned you that those Longhunter pistols would be as close to perfect as humans could produce.

[Willie Dixon]

She wants me to hang it on the wall and look at it so it won't get scratched.  Now what good is a gun you can't shoot? 

LOL
my girlfriend fell in love with this one:

she was like "oooh, pretty! It's beautiful and can burrow your head like a canoe!"
hehe, I got lucky, she actually wanted me to get the custom buntline first, I told her if I did, that's all I could get... no coach gun, no Marlin lever, no pair... her response... "So?  You'd have the best looking one!"
I gotta admit, that model SAA in buntline size, cowboy heaven.

[Scott Yancey]

Dang, that's some serious girlfriend support. You are a very lucky man! And that buntline you've described here and on the other thread sounds great. Good luck.

[Willie Dixon]

yeah, I can thank Tombstone for probably forking over more money for that .45 than my Bronco and El Camino when I first bought them combined!  I want it to look like that gun above, with embossed letters on either side.  one side, WD in honor of my third great uncle, and the other side PM, for me. 
Gold trim and master engraver's level 1 in Old Armory Blue Case finish and a star carved on the hilt.  I'll purchase that one when I'm sworn in as a gift to myself for a job well done on my first chapter in law enforcment.  The star will be whatever star I earn.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Doc,

I finally got the Lightning mainspring lightened.  It was a simple matter of grinding a bit off the mainspring.  The rifle is really slick now.  I got the Marbles installed at the same time.  It took me this long to get it all done because I didn't want to take a chance on taking too much off the spring without a spare in hand - so I had to wait until I got my extras delivered from USFA. 

The action of the rifle is much slicker and the trigger pull noticeably lighter now.  The Marbles is also much easier for these aging eyes to use than the factory sight.  It still shoots a bit high (about 3 inches at 25 yards) with the sight at it's lowest setting, so I need to order the short barrel for it, rather than the mid-height one that Marbles states is correct.

I'm looking forward to next months match.  The Lightning will never be as fast as a slicked up '73, but it is way cool!

[Blackpowder Burn]

I just had to post a photo of my USFA battery - a Lightning carbine in 44-40 with rifle buttstock and Marbles tang peep sight, and 2 Premium SAA's in 44-40.  I love going to a match and hearing comments about how that Lightning won't feed and will cause a train wreck for me - and then have it "shuck and jive" without a bobble.  It may not be real fast, but then neither an I - and it is cool!  The SAA's are USFA and from Long Hunter - what more needs to be said?!

[Pettifogger]

Have a .44-40 carbine just like yours.  Won't feed two rounds in a row without jamming.  As much as I love them, that's the big problem with Lightnings.  It is a real crap shot as to whether they will work and if they do work, they tend to go out of time much quicker than some other rifles.

[Willie Dixon]

How is the 44-40 round? I've heard that isn't such a great round to use supposedly... now mind you that was either from these forums or the Cowboy Chronicle, but that's what I've heard!

[Grogan]

How is the 44-40 round? I've heard that isn't such a great round to use supposedly... now mind you that was either from these forums or the Cowboy Chronicle, but that's what I've heard!

How "is" it?!!

I'd say that after 135 years, it's doing quite well for itself!

By the mid-1970s it had almost totally disappeared from the scene and ammo for it was pretty difficult to locate.

When I started shooting in CAS matches in the early 1990s, I had my original Winchester '92 SRC that was in .44 WCF and I had a tough time finding newly made brass for loading for it.

Thanks to CAS, today it's probably somewhere like the 3rd or 4th most common round used.

FYI these days there are multiple rifles and carbines chambered in .45 Colt.

The reason this didn't happen 135 years ago, as we have today was because back then the RIM on the .45 Colt cases was different than it is today.  Back then it had so much of a smaller diameter, just enough to keep it from falling into the cylinder, and it didn't have enough "meat" for a rifle's extractor to grab hold of it.

That's WHAT the .44-40 was for!  Designed AS a rifle cartridge by Winchester with Colt's and others picking up on it for use in their rifles and revolvers as a useful afterthought.

What you're probably referring to is the fact that some reloaders probably have some problems loading it due to its thin walled neck.  It was designed that way and is still made that way today.

Conversely Blackpowder shooters often have just the opposite problem with their .45 Colt cases.  In their case they don't seal very well using Blackpowder.  That's because the .45 Colts now have thick necks on them.

Part of this problem is due to many new firearms, chambered for .44-40s use LARGER dimension barrels and bullets than the original firearms, while Reloading Dies still maintain original dimensions.  Trying to stuff a larger bullet (than what it was designed for) into a smaller neck, especially a thin one, can lead to problems with necks buckling or splitting.

[Willie Dixon]

cool! thanks for that info, I figured since it was an "older" round it had some merit to it since people are still using it, but I had no idea overall.

it's like my friends all used to firing the 40 s&w and I'm used to 45 ACP, it is definitely different.  Thanks for that info, because somewhere I read "to use a 44 - you have to be sadisitic" probably meaning reloading or something!  So is the 44-40 better than the 45 LC for blackpowder use?  That's what I'm going into, and for right now my revolver will be c&b so the rifle is all that matters, but when I order my peacemakers (USFA) and Remington 75's I was wondering which size for them, so that the rifle is right on, and I don't waste anything for "round mix-ups"

[Grogan]

cool! thanks for that info, I figured since it was an "older" round it had some merit to it since people are still using it, but I had no idea overall.

it's like my friends all used to firing the 40 s&w and I'm used to 45 ACP, it is definitely different.  Thanks for that info, because somewhere I read "to use a 44 - you have to be sadisitic" probably meaning reloading or something!  So is the 44-40 better than the 45 LC for blackpowder use?  That's what I'm going into, and for right now my revolver will be c&b so the rifle is all that matters, but when I order my peacemakers (USFA) and Remington 75's I was wondering which size for them, so that the rifle is right on, and I don't waste anything for "round mix-ups"

Hmm...well it's a little difficult to say.

BOTH the .44-40 AND the .45 Colt are "Older" rounds, both having been introduced in 1873.

I've never (personally) had any difficulties loading the .44-40 and shooting it either with Blackpowder or Smokeless.

But having shot Frontiersman a fair amount, plus loving to shoot my Long Range BPCRs, I'd say Rifles and Revolvers are worlds apart in cleanup (and I'd keep this in mind).

My experiences say that cleaning a Single Shot BPCR is one of the EASIEST cleaning tasks that's out there.  You'd spend "years" more time cleaning up an AR after a big match than you ever would a Blackpowder Single Shot.

Conversely having to clean up a Cap 'n Ball revolver is one of the most labor intensive chores (to get them REALLY Clean) there is!

A SAA wouldn't be too far behind this.  Because my SAAs are all either Colts or USFAs, I elect NOT to load/shoot BP in them.

The Toggle Link Lever rifles are actually somewhere "in-between" on the cleaning.  It's not really that much different than the BPCR as long as you place it in a cradle, facing upside down, so that the dirty patches and wet gunky BP residue falls out the ejection port and NOT into the rifle's action.

Here, a big part of the difference is that you have excellent sealing on the BPCR and then you're cleaning it from the BREACH towards the muzzle.  All the residue falls out on the ground from the muzzle.

Just cycling your lever gun is going to get some BP Residue into your rifle's action.

Because revolvers have so many nooks and crannies, and because revolvers have so much blow by at the cylinder gap, that BP residue just coats EVERYTHING, and you have to take everything apart and SCRUB it to get it squeaky clean.  Smokeless, who cares?  Just slap some prevervative oil over the top and you're good to go!

I haven't loaded or shot BP in the .45 Colt (all my "BP Cartridge" guns are in .44-40 ) so I really can't say.

[Willie Dixon]

thanks for that in-depth info!
I really don't mind cleaning and up-keeping my guns, I guess you could say I'm a sadist at heart when it comes to that, lol... i even enjoy sanding when I'm building cabinets and furniture out of wood!

Now when you talk about how you don't shoot bp in the USFA SAAs, and that it's because that's how you feel, is there a reason behind that b/c of the gun, or just personal preference?  I really like shooting "holy" black and I don't like Subs that much... and I want to continue shooting bp when I "upgrade" to cartridge rounds with the SAA.  Basically I was wondering because of USFA's tight tolerances, do you not recommend shooting bp, or just that you, personally don't care to?

make any sense? LOL sorry, this is why I enjoy range reports and technical aspects of the "game"  I'm a mad scientist by heart so... yeah, I like to mess around, but I want to make sure I do everything right before I jump in.

[Grogan]

thanks for that in-depth info!
I really don't mind cleaning and up-keeping my guns, I guess you could say I'm a sadist at heart when it comes to that, lol... i even enjoy sanding when I'm building cabinets and furniture out of wood!

Now when you talk about how you don't shoot bp in the USFA SAAs, and that it's because that's how you feel, is there a reason behind that b/c of the gun, or just personal preference?  I really like shooting "holy" black and I don't like Subs that much... and I want to continue shooting bp when I "upgrade" to cartridge rounds with the SAA.  Basically I was wondering because of USFA's tight tolerances, do you not recommend shooting bp, or just that you, personally don't care to?

make any sense? LOL sorry, this is why I enjoy range reports and technical aspects of the "game"  I'm a mad scientist by heart so... yeah, I like to mess around, but I want to make sure I do everything right before I jump in.

Hmm...again I can't accurately report on this as it pertains just to USFA revolvers (because I've NEVER shot any BP in mine).

They do have "close" tolerances I'd say, but I can't address how fast they'd bind up.

Again remember that today's cartridges are going to be loaded with what powders you have available (which will prolly be 90% GOEX, I'd imagine?).

Perhaps some of the powders that commercial ammunition was loaded with from the 1870s until ~1910 might have been less fouling than what we have today?  All I know is that shooting BP in the Cap 'n Ball replicas will gum them up in a couple/few stages. 

This, of course, is overcome by having some Moose Milk (10% Ballistol/90% water) in a spray bottle handy and your revolver will work smoothly again as you dirty up your hand and stain your handsome Wyatt Earp shirtsleeve!

I'm guessing that this would hold true shooting any quality SAA as well.

It's just that, for me, I'm content shooting  moderate Smokeless loads in my SAAs.

IF I shot BP through them and planned to store them for any length of time, I'm guessing that I'd clean them up as well as I could, then come back in 6 months and reinspect them closely with an eye towards maybe having to reclean parts of them I discovered needed it.

All I can say is there have been times at multi-day matches (in the past now) that I missed some great SASS evening social activities because I was at home, going over my Cap 'n Ball revolvers, trying to get them cleaned up so they could sing at the next day's matches.

[Willie Dixon]

hmm, good point about the evening activities! 
wow, haven't heard about the moose milk concoction to clean the guns... I've used a combo of crisco and whole cream for my flintlocks and my friend uses that on his rotating flint.  Basically a pirate's revolver, it doesn't have a rotating cylinder, just a bunch of rotating barrels.  Great looking piece, looks like a mini gatling gun!

[Blackpowder Burn]

Willie,

According to everything I've read, the original bottleneck cartridges introduced (32 WCF, 38 WCF and 44WCF - otherwise knows as the 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40) were originally designed for the lever rifles of the day deliberately with thin walled bottleneck cases so that they would expand more (due to the thin wall) and the bottlenect would seal more effectively in the rifles breech, preventing blowback of the black powder residue into the rifles action and the shooters face.  That's why straight walled cartridges such as the 45 Long Colt, 41 Colt, 44 Russian, etc. werent' chambered for the lever rifles.  That's just as true today when shooting black powder and some of the substitutes (such as Pyrodex).  If you watch people shooting lightly loaded straight walled cartridges at a match, you'll see that the brass is frequently blackened down the sides - this is due to incomplete sealing to the chamber wall and some degree of blowback.  This will be much less evident on fired bottleneck cartridge cases.

Another part of the equation is that the bottleneck cases chamber more easily from the angled feed ramp of rifles such ans the Colt Lightning, and Marlins and Models 86 (albeit large rifle calibers) and 92 Winchesters than do straight walled cases.  For rifles such as the Henry, Models 66 and Model 73 Winchesters which have the cartridges inserted straight into the breech due to the design of the lifter mechanism, either a straight walled or bottleneck case will feed equally well.  That's why most top CAS competitors now use these rifles - much less prone to jams.

I've been loading the 44-40 for several years on a progressive press (Dillon Square Deal and Dillon 650), and have no problems in the reloading process.  Using a small amount of spray lubricant on the case is quick and simple, and I rarely damage a case.  I, too, am starting to load black powder, and am using the 44-40 specifically to provide better case sealing.  I plan to expand my battery in the future with the 32-20 cartridge - again for these reasons.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Pettifogger,

It'll be interesting to see what happens over an extended period of time.  I've disassembled the rifle, and overall it seems pretty simple and the action relatively robust.  I've only put about 300 rounds through it to date, but the only feeding issues I've had were when initially learning to stroke the action smoothly and consistently.  After that, it has been problem free.  I did make sure to use a bullet of similar contours to factory ammunition and with proper cartridge OAL, since the clearances are tight in the action.

[Willie Dixon]

sweet! thanks for the help.

I'm a huge peacemaker fan, but also a Remmie fan, and right now Remmies are easier to afford... lol funny how that works.

also, I'm more of a Marlin and 92 Winchester fan anyways, just always liked the look of those, but maybe also because I like to be different... that and Duke, can't forget the Duke. Sweet, thanks, 44-40 it is!