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[Ace Lungger]

  Hody Pards,
I sure could use some advice? I know that a lot of you guys shoot full loads and i wished i could, but i can't and there isn't anything i can do about it!
If you don't mind, could you stae what bullet you are shooting and what distances, and what type of groups?
Why doesn't anyone use a spiral pointed bullet? Is it because it isn't periord correct?
Be honest here, If a person wasn't going to shoot over 200 rounds a year, and poured slow, could you get buy with the Lee moulds, or should a person say his bucks and by Lyman or RCBS?
I bought a used Master Caster last year, not knowing what I had bought (didn't know it took special moulds) when I found out when I got home, I shopped around and bought all the moulds I needed in RCBS, I have a friend that is to mod them for me, and he can do it, if you get him in the mood!!!!!
I am not going to mould 45-70 with the Master Caster!

Help me out guys, I have my heart set on spiral bullets, but I would like to know the facts!!

As allways, any and all advice will be greatly appreicated!!!
ACE

[Cyrille]

Ok, You say you're not going to mould .45/70 bullets, what calibre bullets are you going to mould?
 By spril bullets do you mean spire-point?
 I am unfamiliar with the "Master caster" so I can't help you there.
 I use a Lee mould for my .45 calibre long Colt bullets and they come out near perfect everytime after the mould heats to casting temperature. However all the moulds mentioned in your post are fine.
 Spire point bullets, to the best of my knowledge, can be used in BPCRs; I assume that is what you're casting bullets for.
If you are planning to shoot a BPCR I suggest that you get one in the calibre in which you can use a full load in as that would be the safest route to go because there should be no air space between the powder and bullet. If you must download use  as many fiber wads as it takes to fill the air space between the powder and bullet. I caution you against useing grits or some other type of filler.
 Hope this helps a little.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

LEE moulds are OK for that number of bullets.  They are not hard to use.  If the top of the blocks start to score, I burnish the top of the block AND the sprue plate with something hard & smooth.  (The flat of a chisel, or something similar.)  Do it lightly, just enough to prevent further damage.

Their big advantage is that they are widely available, and cheap.  You might find what you want at the Lee Precision page for surplus items. If not just navigate to the mould chart. I do find that the lube-grooves are a bit shallow for BP lubes in rifles.  This is irrelevant for smokeless, and is only a bit better with iron moulds from RCBS & Lyman.

http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/surplus.html

LEE don't make the most durable moulds, but they have their uses, and might work for you.  I find that I will start with the LEE, just to make some noise; QUICK, but will later add other moulds as special needs arise.

Our regular posters will no doubt chime in with a wide variety of opinions!

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[Ace Lungger]

 :)Sir Cyrille , I do cast my own, (A master caster could be called a bullet making machine) don't give that any thought! My spelling isn't good, so want I mean is a pointed bullet. I am not going to shoot any type of competion! I just know what type of rifle bullet I like!(pointed).

Sir Charles, I went to Montana bullet co, and they don't have the 405gr hollow base bullet to buy and try! I do think that would be the way to finf out what bullet works for your rifle! What mould and what bullet do you use for Long Range shooting, If you shoot a 45-70.
 I am going to post to see if anyone uses the Lee Mould #363401/ 459-405-HB, If I can find someone that has that mould I will see if they will sell me some to try!
 Sir Charles what would you suggest for me to use?
Thanks Greg

[Cyrille]

Yes pointed bullets were used in BPCRs of 1800s vintage and are used today in BPCR matches.
 may I suggest that you check with various sites on the internet that specialize in casting and selling BPCR match bullets.
 SouthWest Accuracy makes a superior product in diffrent calibres. as do many other casting outfits. I have no stock nor am I connected in anyway with Southwest Accuracy CO. other than being a satisfied customer. I listed them by name because they have pictures on their website of the diffrent bullets they produce Sagebrush is another company that comes to mind. You can also look on the sites of custom mould manufacters such as Paul Jones and others as they also post pictures of the type of bullets their moulds cast.
  Perhaps you can find a picture of the kind of bullet you are looking for and go from there.
 
 

[French Jack]

There are several options available for anyone wishing to use spitzer style bullets in their .45 cal. rifle.  There are both custom mould makers, as well as two offerings from Lyman. 

http://www.lymanproducts.com , http://www.neihandtools.com , http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com, http://hochmoulds.com  --

there are pictures on these sites to view their offerings. 

As to 'full loads', I am at loss to your intent here.  Are you wishing to use 'reduced loads' due to recoil/physical issues, or lack of opportunity to use 'full power' loads.  With cast bullets, velocity is limited to much less than is achievable with jacketed bullets, and form such as round nose or spire point have little real effect on performance.  I have read several studies and ballistic test results on such bullets, and basically the GROOVES on the bullet cause much more drag than a nose design -- at working velocities.

I would caution you against trying reduced loads with black powder, unless you are prepared to fill up the excess space with wad, which does present its own problems with accuracy.  Reduced loads is readily achievable with smokeless powders, several loads are to be found in most reloading manuals.  Case capacity may require a filler, and be cautious with what you use, as a ringed chamber or barrel can result in a hurry.  In Scheutzen, where the sole object is to get a cast bullet through a paper target at 200 meters with accuracy, there have been numerous examples of shooters ringing their chambers.  I would suggest that such would persuade one to use a smaller capacity cartridge if lesser power loads are required, and use capacity loads of black powder in larger cases.
JMHO. 

Have a good day.

[Ace Lungger]

 :)FJ,
 I appreciate the info, and I havn't done done the reading research that you have. All my talking is only by very little reading and based on my field experence. And I don't don't you on the stating that the grease grooves would slow the bullet down. But on a jacketed bullet you have no grooves and a blunt nose bullet will never travel as far as starait as a pointed nose bullets. I am sorrt that i don't have any searching for you to study, it is just 32 years of shooting in my head.
 As far as light light loads, I havn't even opened any of my reloading books! All I have done is looked at the gun, bought my tang sites, my dies and shell holded and getting a few cases.
 I have never shoot a round a black powder in my life! I do know that a B.P. has to be compacteded, with no air gap a tall!
So as I have stated this is all new to me. And I will start off with a smokeless round and work up, I do plan to shoot some B.P. and convert to that only in time! And I won't shoot over 250 round a year if that.
 Thanks for all the help, be glad for more comments>
Thanks
ACE

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Ace!

Since we talked over the phone, I know of your situation better than what is explained here.  I hope it's all right for me to add some information about YOU so these fine & knowledgeable pards will know where you're comin' from.

#1 - Ace has severe back problems; therefore the need for reduced loads.

#2 - It is unlikely that he'll ever shoot over 200 yds.  (I didn't say NEVER, however  )

#3 - We have determined that in addition to reduced powder charges, he needs lighter bullets - to go along with reduced powder charges.  I suggested 250 - 350 gr. bullets, but I don't know if ANY bullets of that weight range are available as Spitzer (pointed) or Postell (semi-Spitzer) shapes.

#4 - He is hoping to use BP, if possible.  We talked a bit about adding fillers and/or wads to make up for reduced BP loads.


Hopefully this will allow the regulars here to help ya, pard.

Jeff  "Steel Horse Bailey"

[French Jack]

For a lighter weight bullet for the .45, a good one to try is the 330 gr. Gould hollowpoint from Lyman.  This is an original design that has remained in production due to it's performance.  You should be able to get a sample of them to try from Buffalo Arms.

Lyman also has an original 'schmitzer' style bullet, (spitzer), but it is heavier, 470 gr. or so.

If I were to try smokeless in the .45-70, I would not go with loads using IMR 3031.  Not that they don't work well, you will definitely notice the heavy recoil.  AA5744 is probably a better choice, if it will shoot well in your rifle.  The rifle I tried it in did not do well with it, so I have never used anything except BP since.

[Ace Lungger]

FJ,
 You might of read that i used IMR 3031 as a reference in what I loaded in my 243-20 years ago. I am not going to shoot smokeless in my 45-70, I am going to use BP.
 I thank you for the advice and trying to help!
 Because of my back, i am so limited to going out to shoot is slim. I allways wanted a Sharps, I got the chance to trade and trade good, I have a new toy that i plan on keeping for a long time, I havn't eben shot any of my 44 C & B pistols>
I am, when the time is right.
Thanks
ACE

[Grogan]

Hody Pards,

Why doesn't anyone use a spiral pointed bullet? Is it because it isn't periord correct?
Be honest here,

Help me out guys, I have my heart set on spiral bullets, but I would like to know the facts!!

As allways, any and all advice will be greatly appreicated!!!
ACE

O.k., I think I can shed some light on this one.

The reason many shooters DON'T shoot (Spire) "Pointed" bullets in their BP Cartridge Rifles is because of the velocity/s.

For the most part most BP cartridge rifles shoot subsonic or slightly above and "close to" the speed of sound (at the muzzle) but then the velocity rapidly falls off.

It was discovered way back when (what, in the 1850s and into the 1870s) by both our Government and others that the "best" design for bullets flying at these speeds was those big Round Nosed bullets like the ones listed as "Gov't Bullet" and similar.

This holds true with .22 Rimfire bullets as well including those shot in Olympic and other shooting competitions. 

It's not until the bullet spends a good deal of its time at Supersonic speeds that the various "pointed" shaped bullets fly better, and are more efficient, etc.

Also along these same lines there are a couple of other factors that are worth knowing about. 

One is that any time the bullet goes supersonic (which happens IN the firearm's barrel on acceleration) it's subject to a great deal of turbulence.

Since this happens IN the barrel it's not subject to turbulence going UP in speed.  But when it slows down, and has to cross back into the realm of subsonic flight, it once again encounters this turbulence, and must go through a period where that can affect the accuracy. 

This is why .22RF "Match" ammunition is Subsonic.  They don't want any transitions affecting the accuracy of the bullet's flight.

Another thing to understand is that when a bullet is flying at supersonic speeds it's pushing a shock wave in front of it that acts as a "wake" (similar to a boat's).  This creates something called a "virtual bullet" which gives the bullet's cross section something like 3X the area for wind to act on it.

So again, it's "good" for a bullet to fly either REALLY Fast (and this is where the "pointy" shaped bullets come into their own) or else BELOW the speed of sound. 

Speeds just above the speed of sound probably aren't so hot, you're better off staying just below the speed of sound.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Grogan;  That is a very understandable explanation of a very complicated phenomenon.  Good on ya.

Ace;  I didn't respond to one of your earlier posts as others have done so well . Stay with a bullet in the 330 - 420 grain range for lesser recoil.  These bullets do quite well up to 200 - 300 yard ranges, and have enough power to knock over steel at those ranges.  They are also very good hunting bullets, especially the Gould HP.  I have thought of using Dastardly Dicks ROA bullet in my NWMP .45-75, for an even lighter bullet that is close to the right diameter.

Sticking to FF powder will also lower recoil a bit without excessive use of fillers.  I see nothing wrong with using wads cut from paper-pulp egg cartons.  Sometimes I use a wax card milk carton wad on top of the powder and at the base of the bullet.  I have sometimes used a stack of about 1/4 inch, or a bit more.

Good Shooting.

[Cyrille]

Just an add-on to what ^ said--- I favor the plup-egg carton non-waxed/greased wad at the base/over the powder because it will not contanminate the powder if the rounds are to be stored for a period of time. I see no problem if they are to be used that day or in a day or two unless the weather is very hot and the storage place is not tempurture controled.

[Ace Lungger]

 :)Howdy Pards,
 I want to thank all of you for the GREAT info you have gave me! And it all makes since to me! I have a good friend who shoot 45-70, but I had not been able to get a hold of him, but i finaly did and he loaned me some books! I am reading Black Powder Pig Lead and Stell Silhouettes by Paul Mathews. He seems to have a great deal of knowledge in this field !
 Gorgan, i would like to thank you so much for your explaintion of the pointed bullet vs round nose bullet. I still have a lot of learning to do. I made a but cover for my Sharps and inside it there is a 11/2 thick peice of high denisty foam! I believe this will take alot of the recoil out I hope! If it does it will allow me to shoot a larger faster bullet!
 Everything in my life revolves around my stupid back problems!! Because I got hurt on the job nothing gets done in a hury and maybe nothing gets done a tall, if i was RICH I most likely could go some where and have some work done to it to help with the pain! They claim it isn't going to get any better, with that in mind, If I am still able to walk next OCT. a find of mind and myself are going to go to Wyoming to do some long range Coyote hunting! in my youger days I went 6 years in a row got there to antelope hunt. My plans are to build my self up to beable to shoot my 500gr Postell bullets , I plan on using my electronic caller with a 300 yard cord on my speaker, and we are going to have a blind set up, one guy spot and the other shoot.
 Back when fur prices was good, I made a fair amount of money hunting the Wiley Coyote!! But to say that you killed a coyote with a Buffalo Gun at 400 yards would be awesome ! Of cousre that isn't any big deal with a flat shooting rifle and a big scope!
Thanks again for all the info, I am very great full to all!
ACE