45-60 Blackpowder Loads

[Grizzly Adams]

Ok guys, so what overall length seems to work best in the 45-60 guns out now. How much bullet can you have sticking out? I see all kinds of numbers on the net.

Hi, Slim.

The correct OAL for the 45-60 is 2.25.  That is also the length produced when you use the original Winchester reloading tool.  The resulting round, using the #457191 bullet, or a Win bullet from the original molds will be crimped above the crimp grove in order to give the correct OAL.  This works out very well for BP, but a Lee Factory Crimp die must be used when loading white powder.

Here is a family pic of the 1876 calibers.  Note the crimp location.

[Springfield Slim]

OK. So a bullet that sticks out .360 should be spot on if the brass length of 1.89(taken fro Cartridges of the World) is used.  I don't have a 45-60 myself but I cast some Big Lube(tm) bullets that I thought would work but I have been getting some different numbers from some guys and I can't test them myself.

[Grizzly Adams]

OK. So a bullet that sticks out .360 should be spot on if the brass length of 1.89(taken fro Cartridges of the World) is used.  I don't have a 45-60 myself but I cast some Big Lube(tm) bullets that I thought would work but I have been getting some different numbers from some guys and I can't test them myself.

Correct.   1.89 is the length of the original case that I have.  That big lube bullet looks pretty good.   Send me a pocketfull of those babies, and I will let you know how they work!  Har!

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[Springfield Slim]

Pm me your address and I will get 50 of 'em out to ya. You want .458 or .460?

[Grizzly Adams]

PM sent, Slim!

[Grizzly Adams]

Received the Big Lube bullets from Slim this afternoon.  Wow, I really like the looks of this bullet!   Can't wait to put a few on top of a casefull of Swiss and see how they shot.

[Grizzly Adams]

Well, finally got a chance to load up some of these 300 grain Big Lube bullets.  This is a really neat bullet, and it works perfectly with the cut down 45-70 cases.  Note that it allows the bullet to be crimped at the crimp grove, rather than above it, as is often required in order to get the proper 2.25 OAL that is best for this action.  I have shown it with an original factory round for comparison.  Note where the factory round is crimped.



I will try and get out and see how this bullet shoots in my Cimmie.

Hey, Slim, do you have one of these in 350 grain for the 45-75 yet?

[Springfield Slim]

No, but the original version of this bullet is 385 grains with 2 lube grooves.

[Grizzly Adams]

No, but the original version of this bullet is 385 grains with 2 lube grooves.

What are the possibilities of coming up with a big lube version?

[Springfield Slim]

What it would take is 24 other guys who are willing to buy the mould .Or enough guys so that splitting the 100 set up from LEE wouldn't hurt so much. Pretty simple plan, the moulds cost 52.00 each with 100.00 set up fee, which is waived with 25 or more moulds ordered. I did OK with my 44Slim mould, but I only had 10 others who wanted the 45Slim mould so I ate the 100 bucks. Which I knew could happen going in but I wanted the mould myself so I went for it. I don't have a 45-75 so I am not willing to eat the 100 bucks on this one. But if we on this board could get at least 10 guys who were willing to spend about 68.00 for a mould I would be more than willing to honcho the deal.

[Grizzly Adams]

What it would take is 24 other guys who are willing to buy the mould .Or enough guys so that splitting the 100 set up from LEE wouldn't hurt so much. Pretty simple plan, the moulds cost 52.00 each with 100.00 set up fee, which is waived with 25 or more moulds ordered. I did OK with my 44Slim mould, but I only had 10 others who wanted the 45Slim mould so I ate the 100 bucks. Which I knew could happen going in but I wanted the mould myself so I went for it. I don't have a 45-75 so I am not willing to eat the 100 bucks on this one. But if we on this board could get at least 10 guys who were willing to spend about 68.00 for a mould I would be more than willing to honcho the deal.

Well, ok then, lets run this up the pole and see how many salute!  I'm in!

[Jubal Wilson]

I have a Cimarron/Uberti 1876 in 45-60 with a 28 inch barrel.  I think the twist is 22 inches and the bore is .458 inches.  I managed to make it to the range today with my chrono and thought I would post some results.  The wind was gusting way too hard for any accuracy but I was more interested in the velocity anyway.  First my BP loading procedure.  I weigh out each charge then trickle it through a 30 inch drop tube.  Since I was using a gas check bullet I did not use a card wad.  Using Swiss 1 1/2 powder I first tried 60 grains but it did not fill the case enough to allow for compression.  I have found in my 20 years of BPCR shooting that most BP likes some compression with GOEX wanting the most and Swiss wanting less.  With 65 grains of Swiss I was able to get about .070 inches of compression which worked well.
 
Load details:  45-60 Winchester
W-W cases that had been shortened to 1.875 inches and the rim thickness reduced to less than .062 inches
65.0 gr Swiss 1 1/2 through 30 inch drop tube
Winchester WLR primers
321 gr RCBS GC  1:20 alloy  sized .459  SPG lube  crimped in crimping groove
Crimp after seating
OAL 2.295  will feed fine in my rifle
Average velocity 10 feet from muzzle:  1364 fps

Comparison velocity for heathen powder
Same case, primer, bullet and OAL
28.0 gr H4198 + Puff-Lon filler   velocity:  1342 fps

26.2 gr 5744 no filler  velocity:  1210 fps

These loads are safe in my new Uberti replica.  Your rifle may respond differently.   My suggestion is to always determine the velocity of your max BP load for a given bullet then stay below that velocity when using heathen powder with that bullet.

[Grizzly Adams]

I have a Cimarron/Uberti 1876 in 45-60 with a 28 inch barrel. 
 
Load details:  45-60 Winchester
W-W cases that had been shortened to 1.875 inches and the rim thickness reduced to less than .062 inches
65.0 gr Swiss 1 1/2 through 30 inch drop tube
Winchester WLR primers
321 gr RCBS GC  1:20 alloy  sized .459  SPG lube  crimped in crimping groove
Crimp after seating
OAL 2.295  will feed fine in my rifle
Average velocity 10 feet from muzzle:  1364 fps
Comparison velocity for heathen powder
Same case, primer, bullet and OAL
28.0 gr H4198 + Puff-Lon filler   velocity:  1342 fps

26.2 gr 5744 no filler  velocity:  1210 fps

These loads are safe in my new Uberti replica.  Your rifle may respond differently.   My suggestion is to always determine the velocity of your max BP load for a given bullet then stay below that velocity when using heathen powder with that bullet.

Thanks for posting your results, Jubal.  The numbers for the Swiss and the 4198 are really close in terms of velocity - much better IMHO that the 5744 data.  Can you post the SD and ES number for each of those loads?

[Jubal Wilson]

Griz
For the BP load the SD and ES were 16.9 and 39.9.  This is my first test of this load and I will have to tweek it  a little to get the SD down in the single digits like I do on my BPCR loads.  However I am out of Swiss so will have to use up my GOEX.  I wish the wind had not been blowing so hard so that I could have seen what kind of accuracy this load would give me.

The 28.0 gr of H4198 + Puff-Lon had a SD of 12.3 and an ES of 30.7.  This looks good on statistics but I think I will work down on the H 4198 to get around 1300 fps.  It depends on the accuracy.  I shoot my 1876 in Cowboy Silhouette so a 321 gr bullet at 1300 fps is plenty to knock down a 55 lb Ram at 200 meters.  I am more concerned with accuracy than velocity.

The 5744 load was a disappointment.  I used the load Kirk Durston listed in his article but I only got 1210 fps while he got 1301 fps.  However his rifle was an original and mine is a replica.  Anyway the SD was 7.9 and the ES was 19.0 which is extremely good for heathen powder.  Again I wish I could have seen what the accuracy was like.

Oh well there is always next time.  It was 64 degrees at the range yesterday and they are predicting snow here tonight.

[Grizzly Adams]

Griz
For the BP load the SD and ES were 16.9 and 39.9.  This is my first test of this load and I will have to tweek it  a little to get the SD down in the single digits like I do on my BPCR loads.  However I am out of Swiss so will have to use up my GOEX.  I wish the wind had not been blowing so hard so that I could have seen what kind of accuracy this load would give me.

The 28.0 gr of H4198 + Puff-Lon had a SD of 12.3 and an ES of 30.7.  This looks good on statistics but I think I will work down on the H 4198 to get around 1300 fps.  It depends on the accuracy.  I shoot my 1876 in Cowboy Silhouette so a 321 gr bullet at 1300 fps is plenty to knock down a 55 lb Ram at 200 meters.  I am more concerned with accuracy than velocity.

The 5744 load was a disappointment.  I used the load Kirk Durston listed in his article but I only got 1210 fps while he got 1301 fps.  However his rifle was an original and mine is a replica.  Anyway the SD was 7.9 and the ES was 19.0 which is extremely good for heathen powder.  Again I wish I could have seen what the accuracy was like.

Oh well there is always next time.  It was 64 degrees at the range yesterday and they are predicting snow here tonight.

Thanks, Jubal.

Wow, those numbers on the 5744 are extremely good.  If the accuracy is as good, that one is a keeper!   

Keep us posted on your results with the H4198 as well.

Oh, and 10-4 on that snow!  You folks are in for a good one!

[Springfield Slim]

Grizzly: You gonna shoot that Big Lube bullet? Might help mould sales if we know it works well.

[Grizzly Adams]

Grizzly: You gonna shoot that Big Lube bullet? Might help mould sales if we know it works well.

I am hoping to do that today!   We have had too much wind and a cold one to boot, but today should be decent.    I know, getting whimpy in my old age!

[Hell-Er High Water]

Slim,

Would the bullets from these new moulds be like the one that you pictured in your previous post and like the 100 that I just purchased from you?

Thanks.

HHW

[Grizzly Adams]

Ok, I finally had a chance to shoot the big lube bullets.   Turned out to be windy as hell, but temp was not too bad, so i did the best I could with the day I had.

I had two loads put together.  One with Swiss 1.5 and one with Goex Express.  Both shot  well, with the best being the Goex Express.  Even with the wind, I was able to hit the steel chicken at 150 yards with no problem.  As for the bullet, it works as advertised!  Lube with both powders was soft, and I got a nice lube star on the end of the muzzle.  I fired a 10 shot string with each  loading, and cleaned before starting the next string.  Cleanup was three patches with the Goex Express and 4 with Swiss. 

I really feel this bullet has promise.  It definitely does a good job of keeping the fouling soft.  As I indicated before,  it seems perfect for the 45-60, allowing the bullet to be crimped at the crimp grove, with the resulting 2.25 OAL that works best through this action.

When the weather improves and this dang wind stops, I will shot these for group.  Don't think I could have kept the targets in the same county today!

[Springfield Slim]

Hell-er: Yes and yes. thanks, grizzly. They work OK in my Trapdoor too. No point wasting 500 grains of lead when 300 will hit just fine at 200 yards. Don't have any real Looong range places around here.