.45 Big Groove Bullets and accuracy??

[1860]

Hello,

I am wondering if anyone has shot the big groove bullets at ranges longer than CAS and what have their results been as far as accuracy??

I'm shooting an Uberti 73 std. rifle, it's very accurate with smokeless, using the carbine ladder sight I installed and a good rest it is capable of hitting a bowling pin @ 200 yards (It is capable, I'm not always..).   I have some lyman style 2 grease groove bullets that are also pretty accurate with 3F goex but they do foul the bbl rather quickly.  So, I've been trying to get these big grove bullets to group.  I have tried 2& 3F goex with them, changed compression, added filler, grease cookie, base wad, different crimps, different lubes and finally a different gun, I am lucky to get a group under 8" @ 100 yards from a clean blll. with these bullets.  I also tried all of the above on an original 92 in .44-40 with .429 big grooves and it litterly chucked them out of the bbl while pan lubed smokless bullets shoot fine..The big groove bullets do cut down on the fouling but I need them to shoot better.

Any suggestions would be welcome and appreciated.  I don't shoot CAS, I just like to shoot old style guns and would like to find an accurate load that also would not foul the bbl. so quickly.

Thanks

[Sunwapta Haze]

I can't speak to the accuracy of the 45 cal Big Lube (tm) bullets but can attest to the fact that I have hit steel targets at up to 300 yrds with the 357/38 cal Snakebite being pushed along by 20 grains of fffg Holy Black through my Marlin Cowboy Ltd with a 20" barrel.  Can't get enough elevation out of the Lyman tang sight to hit targets much beyond that. 

[hellgate]

I found that if I had grease cookies (beeswax discs) adhering to the bullet base that powder would stick to it and cook off as the bullet sailed down range. It did not contribute to accuracy. In the 357 I finally gave up trying to get an ACCURATE, NONFOULING load with BP. I could get one but not the other. I wanted to use the snakebite but it did not reliably feed through my Rossis. Your barrel twist might be too slow for the longer big lube bullet. I'm just guessing.  You might want to try a harder alloy like with the smokeless bullets. The only 45s I shoot are in the 45/70  TD carbine.

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[Fox Creek Kid]

I found that if I had grease cookies (beeswax discs) adhering to the bullet base that powder would stick to it and cook off as the bullet sailed down range.

It's worse than that: the cookies sticking to the bullet base will cause the bullet to "weather vane" and go all over the place, as much as a foot off at even close distances. I found that out once during an experiment shooting BP 44-40's.

No offense pardner, but the .45 Colt is not a good rifle round. Period. Mike Venturino did extensive testing years ago comparing 44-40 to .45 Colt and could never get the .45 Colt to group as well in an Uberti. Everyone I ever shot with who consistently shoots real BP uses a 44-40 anyway. Al that is except Cuts Crooked and he goes through more rituals "neck sizing" .45 Colt for a rifle than I do shooting paper patch bullets in a Sharps. 

[1860]

Thanks for the replys

I found out that grease cookies were not the way to go...LOL, I virtually had grease running out the end of the bbl but accuracy was terrible.  I've been thinking about dealing the .45 and picking up a .44-40 carbine, if for nothing else then to reduce the amount of blowback.  Of course, that would mean I'd need to get rid of my .45 revolver and replace it with a 44-40 as well, both are about 15 years old and I've never sold  a gun befor so they would be hard to part with.

One thing I have not tried is to shoot the big groove bullets with smokless, I'm currious to see if the BP fouling (there is not much) is the issue or is it just the bullets, like Hellgate said it might be the twist or my gun just might not like them.  Gonna try that today if I get time.

Doug

[1860]

S-Haze,

I also use the .38 snakebites in my conversion revolvers and they work great.  I have a Marlin carbine in .38 with a microgroove bbl.-(old one) and I shot them out of it once.  While I didn't really bench it for groups it seemed to do OK and with the shorter bbl I didn't get any heavy fouling out near the end of the bbl.  But, with those straight walled .38's I had considerable blowback and cleaning that Marlin action seemed a chore.

How does yours do with blowback and how do you clean the innards...

Thanks
60

[Howdy Doody]

I guess you are talking about rifle caliber stuff and I have never shot my PRS very far, but I do shoot the big one designed for 45-70 that I size at .458 and it shoots great to 200 yards and probably further, but that is as far as I have mine sighted in. I love to blast a steel buffalo with them. I have had my best luck with 777 powder so far. Even with 777 I use a BP type lube and no fouling and no gunk to speak of either. That has been my experience.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Thanks for the replys

I found out that grease cookies were not the way to go...LOL, I virtually had grease running out the end of the bbl but accuracy was terrible.  I've been thinking about dealing the .45 and picking up a .44-40 carbine, if for nothing else then to reduce the amount of blowback.  Of course, that would mean I'd need to get rid of my .45 revolver and replace it with a 44-40 as well, both are about 15 years old and I've never sold  a gun befor so they would be hard to part with.

One thing I have not tried is to shoot the big groove bullets with smokless, I'm currious to see if the BP fouling (there is not much) is the issue or is it just the bullets, like Hellgate said it might be the twist or my gun just might not like them.  Gonna try that today if I get time.

Doug

No need to sell yer .45 revolver if ya git a .44-40 carbine. I shoot a Henry in .44-40 and Rugers in .45 as my main guns.
I used ta shoot .45 Big Lube boolits with BP in a Marlin. Got too much blowback. That is the reason I bought the Henry in .44-40.

Slim

[1860]

Slim,

How hot does that Henry get after a couple of tubes of BP rounds, my 73 could turn and egg white.  I love their looks.  To be honest, I guess I don't need another revolver, I most often shoot the conversions in .38 anyways.

Howdy Doody,

I've used 777 in my 38-55, the bbl. stays real clean with it, and it stays accurate for longer periods.   I just like the sound, smoke and smell of regular BP.  I've tried the bullets in .452 and .454 with no difference in results.

60

[Howdy Doody]

Yup, the 38-55 is a great cartridge. I have a Marlin 336 Cowboy in 38-55. I had Old Scout do a number on it and I shoot a two grooved bullet that weighs 250gr and sized at .380 with 777 and it is clearly my most accurate rifle. I should shoot it more, but even though I shoot a good number of annuals I usually miss side match day to save using a vacation day up and just make main match on Fridays usually. If I could only shoot as good as that Marlin shoots.........oh, man.

Back to your 45 cal issue though. I size mine at .454 for Marlin. I realize all chambers aren't the same, but with the Lee factory taper crimp die, I hardly get any blowboy in the chamber, just on the case about 1/3 the way and it isn't bad. I shoot mostly Goex and lately Shuetzen. I know folks that have rifles that stated that the chambers were not even perfectly round on theirs. You might try and see if there is any issue along those lines before you give up on it. 

[Silver Creek Slim]

It all depends on the ambient temperature and if it's in the sun. If it is sunny and the temp is 80+. It is quite hot after one tube full. If it is kept in the sun from one stage to the next, which is about a half hour, it really doesn't cool down any.  Therefore, yer fingers kinda dance on the tube or ya wear a glove on that hand. I've gone ta wearing a glove on hot days.

Slim

[Cuts Crooked]

Ha!! Hark at Fox Creek there, makin' snide remarks about my .45s and wat I do to make em shoot good in rifle gunz! And him doing every thing short of having a priest bless his reloads fer that silly butt loadin thing wat wuz left over frum the "late unpleasantness" b'tween the Sates!

1860, have you ever slugged the barrel on that long gun? If not I b'lieve I'd check it 'n see what you come up with. My .45 Rossi shoots at longer ranges, about as good as I can see...which ain't the best I admit. But It's capable of keeping them in the best group I can manage with aging eyesight. All that aside, I'd suggest that you kinda treat yer long range loads sorta like the BPCR shooter do thiers and weigh each bullet b'fore loading em. Toss out any that are more than .5 grains lighter than yer heaviest ones. Consistancy is everything here, just like in Buff shootin' gunz! (I've found that the first hole in my PRS mold throws the best/heaviest boolits so I sort them out as I cast sometimes, jist fer my "accuracy loads")

[Fox Creek Kid]

I size mine at .454 for Marlin. I realize all chambers aren't the same, but with the Lee factory taper crimp die, I hardly get any blowboy in the chamber, just on the case about 1/3 the way and it isn't bad.

Tip: if you avoid the factory crimp die and don't resize you can eliminate more blow back. However, if you use this ammo in more than one gun try it for size. The factory crimp die does resize the cartridge via the inside carbide ring and will also size down the bullet as well. This can be bad. I shoot .44 Colt & .44 Russian and never resize nor use the factory crimp die and it has eliminated the blow by by at least 50%. 

[Howdy Doody]

FCK, I also should mention that I do not shoot anything like Starline or Top Brass neither. I like Winchester brass because it is softer and seals better. If I don't use my factory crimp die, then I would have to load in a groove and that would mean I could not kiss the lands and in my case not be as accurate.

Cuts, have you tried the procedure that calls for casting six really good boolits and then drilling them at the base and adding sheet metal screws. You then take the  cold Lee mold and wet a chamber add a light coating of Comet cleanser and hold the mold shut on the boolit and spin it slowly with a drill? That in moderation will help considerably in helping to polish up what the tool left and they drop like crazy wthout much more than a little smoking the cavities and I have found more uniformly from all six cavities too. There are other tricks too that I have only read about and not tried, like playing with the venting between halves and polishing the bottom of the sprue cutting plate., staking the pins that align the halves so they do not move. Just like pistolas you don't have to run them stock.    I have a couple snakebite molds and one of them always drops bullets a little smaller than the other. The best I can figure is that the cherry or whatever they call it was a little worn or smaller than the one that made the other mold. Weird huh? 

[Sunwapta Haze]

S-Haze,

I also use the .38 snakebites in my conversion revolvers and they work great.  I have a Marlin carbine in .38 with a microgroove bbl.-(old one) and I shot them out of it once.  While I didn't really bench it for groups it seemed to do OK and with the shorter bbl I didn't get any heavy fouling out near the end of the bbl.  But, with those straight walled .38's I had considerable blowback and cleaning that Marlin action seemed a chore.

How does yours do with blowback and how do you clean the innards...

I have to admit that I had horrible blow back problems once upon a time.      But not anymore!  . 

The solution for me was the crimp die.  I full length resize my brass (mixed cases but mostly Winchester), size the Snakebite to .358 (they basically drop from the mold at that diameter but I size 'em anyway just to finish the bullet after pan lubing), load 'em up using a RCBS Cowboy seating die to just set the  bullet depth and finish 'em off in a Redding crimp die.  Works real well for me.  Last year I shot a 10 stage match and side matches over two days without cleaning the rifle at all and the last round spit out just as easily as the first.

I tried neck sizing and using the standard Lee seating/crimp die, the Lee factory crimp die and the RCBS Cowboy seating/crimp die to no avail.  Now I have no more blowback issues using the Redding crimp die - it is basically a collet style crimp die that imparts a tapered roll crimp. 

As for cleaning I boil up some water, pour it down the barrel from the action end, chase the water with "moose-milk" (Ballistol and water mixture), run a bore snake through the barrel, wipe the exerior with rag and put her away.  In the past I almost always pulled the bolt and carrier out for clean up but not anymore.  I only pull the action apart but once a year for a major clean up before long term storage.

Your milage may vary ...

[Dick Dastardly]

None of the Pistol Caliber Big Lube™ bullets were designed for long range work.  That being said, I've shot some fine 200 and 300 yard groups with my Browning 92s in 44 Magnum with Big Lube™ Mav Dutchman bullets over FFFg Holy Black.

For the longer range stuff, beyond 100 yards, I strongly recommend the 38-55 or the 45-70 calibers.  I shoot both and have Big Lube™ designs for both.

The ballistic coefficient of the pistol caliber rifle bullets is very poor for long distance work.  You really want more sectional density.  If you do plan to shoot long range pistol caliber rifle matches, the 44 Caliber has the edge.  Many like the 44-40, but don't overlook some fine guns in 44 Magnum.  Two of my Browning 92s are 44 Magnums.  They will ride with the 44-40s any day for long range pistol caliber shooting.  Also, the 44 Magnum was designed for much taller pressures than the old 44-40.  As such it offers a LOT more versatility via heathen fad smokeyless loads.  I'm embarrassed to admit that I do carry some very stout smokeyless loads to the deer woods in my Browning 92 for those times when I'm hunting in heavy cover or driving deer.

DD-DLoS

[Cuts Crooked]

Howdy Doody,

I've not tried that one, but I have staked the pins on a Snakebite mold that belongs to a pard of mine. He had a lot of trouble with his and that seemed to cure the problems.

Regarding getting them to fall out, really never had that problem with a Big Lube mold. But that first hole seems to cast the best/most consistant weight wise. Perhaps it's my casting technique, I donno? But I never really have any thing I'd call problematic concerning accuracy, I jist find that one hole is the one I want them from if I'm loading for extreme accuracy in my lever gun.

[Doctor Bill]

Folks, I am no expert in long range shooting by any means, used to play the DCM/Highpower game but that’s about it.  Having said that, I think one of the limiting factors in this discussion is that the 0.45 Colt round has a ballistic coefficient only slightly better than a brick.  When you factor in soft lead that deforms on ignition, cast bullets that are not gyroscopically true, comparatively low muzzle velocity, etc. etc. you don’t have the optimum long-range target rifle.

Back when I could go out to the abandoned strip mines in East Tennessee we used to see who could hit a target at about 150 yards with a 0.45 ACP pistol but it was WAY more luck than anything else that determined who got the hits.  Lots of fun but not a precision target arm at that range.

Doctor Bill

[Wills Point Pete]

 I have shot some okay hundred yard groups with my Navy Arms '92 clone in .45. I had to jump through some hoops to do it. I used a 30-odd inch drop tube, like Buffalo gun boys do, for one thing, and stuck an .030 card wad under the bullet. By the time I figured out how to use the base of a .357 case and a short socket extension for a compression "die" I was getting two-two and a half inch groups at a hundred yards with a very compressed load of FFG Schuetzen. Since this is the same the rifle gets with a max load of H110 behind the Hornady 250 gr XTP I have to contend the Big Lube Boolit is just about as accurate as anything else.
 I have not tested the rifle at ranges over a hundred yards. Since it's main duty is to discourage coyotes and tractor thieves in our back lot and the terrain precludes a shot of much over seventy yards, I just haven't bothered.
 I did note that a barely compressed load of FFG was showing slightly oblong holes in the target. I suspect that the 250 gr PRS Big Lube Boolit may need top velocity to stabilize in that barrel's twist. I have not had any of that hot Swiss Powder to check out my suspicion.
 I quit fooling around , those "semilong range" Black Powder loads are a pain to mess with and my club doesn't ever bother with long rifle shots. So I just load 'em fast and dirty, come home and swamp it out, click the tang sight a couple of clicks and load it up with the heathen fad smokeless loads and stash her ahint the back door. Coyotes and tractor thieves should stay away. With a max load of H110 that XTP exits the muzzle of my 24 inch rifle at around 1900fps.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Boys

I too found out a few years ago that grease cookies tend to stick to the base of bullets and cause them to fly like arrows with lopsided feathers. No keyholing, but groups more like a shotgun pattern. I put a card wad between the cookie and the bullet, as well as one between the powder and the cookie, and things got better, but way too much work. Went to Big Lube bullets and haven't looked back. Can't comment about accuracy in a 45 Colt rifle, don't own one. Only 44-40 in my rifles.

Don't really know why changing over to 44-40 in a rifle would mean having to forsake 45 Colt in pistols. I've been shooting 44-40 in my rifle and 45 Colt in my pistols since day one in CAS. Just have to pay attention at the loading table. It helps to keep the rounds in different colored boxes and put a stripe across the case head with a Sharpie on one of them. This way I don't have to deal with the problems some manufacturers create when they mismatch chamber throat diameters with barrel groove diameters in 44-40.