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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderator: Cuts Crooked)  |  Topic: New Wad for 12ga BP loads 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: New Wad for 12ga BP loads  (Read 4361 times)
Mako
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« on: May 13, 2007, 01:18:20 am »


I apologize if ya'll already know about this wad but I haven't read anything about it on any of the forums. I have used Ballistic Products Inc. components for years but a couple of months ago I noticed they carry short plastic wads designed for shorter European style 2 ¼  to 2 ½  inch shells.  This is ideal for black powder in 2 ¾ shells because we need that space this shorter wad won’t occupy to hold our bulkier BP charge.  A lot of us use traditional fiber wad stacks but I have found they don’t work as well with the 3” chamber and long lead on my TTN ’78 double.  This is true with a lot of modern chambers and an incomplete seal gives inconsistent pressures and a lot of gas blow-by which destroys patterns. Plastic wads with their gas sealing skirts give the best performance in most modern shotguns.

The wads can be found in this online catalog page:

http://shop2.mailordercentral.com/bpicart/prodinfo.asp?number=072SSW

The wad works best with a 1 ounce shot load, but a 1⅛ load will fit with a bit more wad pressure.  Using a MEC press the following works well:

•   4.3cc charge of FFg Goex
•   BPI  072SSW  “Short Shell Wad”
•   40 lbs wad pressure on the MEC press
•   1 oz of shot
•   Standard 209 primer (Winchester in their hulls and Remington in theirs)
•   Win AA or Rem STS hulls

If you use 1 ⅛  ozs of shot then you need to increase your wad seating pressure to 60 to 80 lbs.  Even with this pressure you need to use fresh or once shot hulls or you will get a poor crimp.

The wads are currently a very light transparent green even though the picture in the catalog shows an uncolored wad.  They have petal tie bars which will separate upon the wad leaving the barrel, this wad gives great pattern control and with the 4.3cc charge of powder you get a dense pattern at CAS ranges which easily topple knock down targets. More powder tends to blow holes in the center of the pattern and charges slightly less than “square load” ratios tend to clump and maintain a dense column. While this is not desirable for upland birds it is the perfect recipe for putting mass on steel at close ranges. This is a pleasant and milder recoiling load than the 1oz  Winchester loads many of our smokeless brethren shoot, but it has a tighter pattern.

For you 20ga shooters there is a wad, 
http://shop2.mailordercentral.com/bpicart/prodinfo.asp?number=072SG20S
you may wish to investigate.
 
Has anyone else used these short wads?

~Mako
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 06:07:20 am »

   Mako, that's just what I am looking for...Thank you...My '87 prefers AA hulls and the pattern is less than desireable.
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 07:29:25 am »

If you still get melted plastic inside your barrels, you can put a .135 Nitro card under it and still have enough room for a good crimp.  Good report sir, and thanks.

DD-DLoS
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 12:48:56 pm »

About 10 years ago I shot in one of my favorite two day annual shoots and only had 4 misses two of which were shotgun fallers that failed to go down. At a second annual I could not bring any of the fallers down on the first stage with repeated hits and an 80 gr BP  1 1/8oz load. Fortunately, we were the first posse and I was one of the first to shoot it and the RO reset the fallers to a lighter setting but that was intimidating to me to not blow them over. Lots of smoke and noise but no "umph".  This was before much standardization of target size & distance; they were heavy and out there a ways.  So I went on a quest to improve the patterns in my cut down (cyl/cyl) Stevens 311. BlackJack Traven on the old CAS-L (earliest CAS Email bulletin board I know of) suggested STEEL SHOT CUPS as he related a similar story. I tried them with extensive patterning tests and have not had problems with knockdowns since. Ballistics Products is my source for the wads.

First of all, the WAA12R (AA Red Wad or Claybusters generic equivalent CB 1138-12) is a very versitile wad for CHOKED guns. You can adapt any AA wad and several other types of plastic one piece wads to 2 or 3 heights by merely slicing out the "legs":
-Cut them out entirely (shortest wad column i.e. over powder seal & shot cup)
-Cutting the "legs" across the middle and rotating the wad 90 degrees and pressing the parts together for a medium high wad
-leave it intact for the tallest wad column.
There you go: a "3 sizes fits all" wad for light or heavy loads in the same or different hulls.

In order to get tighter patterns from my 311 and my TTN, I use 3 different Ballistic Products wads:
LBC-50 trimmed with tin snips to 30mm and slit twice full length. (I use a utility knife/box cutter)
CSD 118 also trimmed & slit twice
BP12 TUFF steel shot cup slit twice over any kind of salvaged over powder plastic gas seal wad

I tried not slitting the wads but they tumbled and threw elongated irregular patterns with about 1/3 of the shot load traveling backwards still inside the cup. I used 4 slits half length without improvement in the patterns. I used 75-80 grs FFg and 1 1/8oz shot as my load. My patterning board was an IPSC target or a large cardboard box with a sheet of freezer paper stapled to it at about 20 yards. Mark an aiming point on the paper. You can use 10 or 15 yards distance too. I think a full choke pattern is 10 inches in diameter at 10 yards but check a shotgun reloading manual for the various widths of patterns expected at various yardages for the equivalent choke. I cannot overestimate the importance of this simple patterning. You may find your gun shoots high, low, or God knows where til you see where the center of that pattern hits compared to where your aimed. I found that I was having some misses on stationary targets with an IGA Coachgun because the barrels were "walleyed" (left barrel hit low & left, right barrel hit high & right).

Results: all 3 above wads threw nice, even MODIFIED CHOKE patterns from my cylinder bores.

I now have essentially two loads. A light "gamer" load equivalent to a 20 ga of 55grs BP (or ANY sub other than 777) with 7/8oz of #8 or #9 shot using any wad column that allows a decent crimp. I usually try to use a plastic gas seal (PGS) OP wad and after that, anything goes: fiber, plastic, cards etc. The light load is for those ever increasing stationary  targets and swingers, or fallers so close that any reasonable hit will take them down. I load the light loads in green hulls. My heavier, steel shot cup load is put into red hulls. I can essentially change chokes by changing ammo.

Now, as DGB#29 (that's Dirty Gamey Bastard #29) I also will load custom loads for specific conditions. A big load of wide pattern (no shot cup at all but a PGS+Filler) with 80grs powder and 1 1/8os shot comes in handy. I'll use #9s for the pop up soda cans and briquets and #6s for the times when I think I can get more than one faller per shot when they're placed closer together. I've occasionally gotten 3 down with one shot. This usually happens with the full intent of the stage writer to let shooters "game it" by leaning over or doing whatever to see if they can get some doubles. It's a major fun factor.
So, you've got a hard little knockdown that throws up a can of pop. Left barrel gets a red round and the right gets the wide #9s. Just as if I had chokes, I shoot the tight load first to drop the faller and the open bore for the flyer. It's just like hunting, you have different loads for different critters close or far.

Keep in mind that BP doesn't throw shot as fast as smokeless powder. The short coach guns throw out a lot of unburned powder compared to a 30" gun. The slower to burn BP likes a long barrel to burn it all for maximum velocity. With smokeless, the powder is all burned in the first 18-20" of barrel. So, you are shooting softer loads to begin with. Just to get the equivalent of a standard 3 dram 1 1/8oz trap load you need to go to 82 grs of black. A lot of folks are shooting 55-60grs BP in a 12 ga. That's slow. In order to make up for the velocity lack you need a tight pattern. That's why I like the steel shot cups to put choke where it's needed to blow down the big steel.
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Mako
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 02:15:31 pm »

Hellgate,
I have used PGS seals and BP12 wads for years in buckshot, heavy shot and steel loads, but they are a lot of work (all of that cutting and slitting).  The same is true for the Win Red or the Claybusters replacement wads.  For practice and competition quantities cutting, rotating, shortening or anything else got to be a chore.  I have been using Claybusters, but the BPI SSW appears to meet my needs perfectly.  This is why I posted about it, I have found many shooters consider BP too much trouble and a bit mystifying.  If you consult a common shot shell loading manual it makes it appear you have to have a very rigid and specific component combination to even be safe.  Many shot shell loaders might consider BP loads if there was a simple combo that worked.  That is what I was offering.

You might consider the possibility that your 1 1/8 loads on top of 80grs of BP might have been throwing doughnut shaped patterns, did you ever pattern one of those loads that failed you?  1oz of shot with 90% or more of the pellets has more moment than 75% of a pattern of 1 1/8 oz 100 fps faster. Moving steel requires momentum not kinetic energy.  Too much energy is lost in projectile deformation when a slower moving higher mass will transfer more moment to that piece of steel setting at rest.

DD,
I'm not sure if there is room for a .135" nitrocard with a 1 1/8 load but there should be with the 1oz load.  The wad seating pressure would probably need to be increased to set the column height and you would have the same issue with crimps as the 1 1/8oz loads have. I don't have much problem removing the plastic "snake skin" from my bores, a moose milk spray and half a paper towel pushed down the bore with a cleaning rod pushes them right out.  Or you can do what our pard Bronco Birnbaum does after he finishes a match.  He sprays the bores down and lets them sit while he cleans his pistols and rifle, then he goes over to a range that is still designated as “hot” and puts a round of smokeless down each tube and the plastic is stripped out by the shot.  I’m not insinuating Bronco is lazy Wink…he just finally found a use for smokeless powder. Roll Eyes

~Mako
 
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2007, 05:56:38 pm »

If you still get melted plastic inside your barrels, you can put a .135 Nitro card under it and still have enough room for a good crimp.  Good report sir, and thanks.

DD-DLoS


 With some trial and errors, I cut off the base of some of the Clays 1138, leaving  stubs for legs with a nitro card over a 1 oz by volume dipper of goex.  The wads were seated and shot was added. I had to back off the shot a tad to get a good crimp. Next I tried it with the legs completely removed over the nitro card.  This seem to work better, and the pattern seemed better.   However I still haven't patterned it on paper.   I guess the nitro card is why I have no plastic residue. 
  All this cutting and fiddlin' is time consuming.  I have used fiber wads in the AA's they a lot of fiddlin'.   I still use brass in my SxS's.  They both shoot fine with fiber wads.  Occassional I get gamey and use plastic in them but not too often...<They shuck out faster.  I get thru these Clay's I'll try the BPI's ....I'll try anything once. 
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2007, 07:13:40 pm »

Mako,
I do get your point about the tedium of wad prep. I do it while watching a movie on the VCR/CD or when catching some TV show. The wife quilts and I trim wads. The time flies with a movie. Besides, I only shoot 1 or 2 matches a month so an occasional marathon of trimming works for me.
I remember shooting my prior load at the paper and it was just real broad. No donuts. I have gotten the donuts while working up a load for my muzzleloading 12ga. Backing off on powder worked. With other one piece wads I got more defined patterns in my 311 due to less shot deformation from the barrel but the basic pattern was almost as broad as without a shot cup. I did find the 1 1/4oz Remington Power Piston that is slit half way threw Improved Cylinder patterns as did the Alcan Flite Max wad. You are right that a center dense pattern is best for KDs whatever the velocity.

DD,
Ditto what Mako says about Broncho's cleaning method, only I will use a sub like Clearshot/cleanshot/777 and make up "cleanout blanks" of about 40 grs (vol) of powder and the rest is a stack of card & filler wads packed tightly. It's a nice excuse to touch a few more rounds down range. Get the MDs OK before proceeding though. Spray the bores, let it soak, BOOM!BOOM! and they're pretty clean needing only an oil swab. Once in a while it takes more spray and two more cleanout blanks. But what the hey, it's still more fun.
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 09:15:01 pm »

You pards guessed me rite.  I'm paranoid about melted plastic in my bores.  Took two weeks to clean up one gun.  Guess that's why I use only "natural" wads with BP.

All that said, there is sometimes need for a pattern tightening plastic wad.  My slicked up 311 with the cut off barrels is one gun that could benefit from 'em.  That gun is a genuine hall sweeper.

DD-DLoS
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 07:19:29 am »

Can I mention my shotgun load here ??

I use a AA hull and a Claybuster Orange Wad.

I think it takes about 25 to 30 grains of FFFG and I fill the shot cup.

I get good patterns in all my Scatter guns. I shoot an SKB and a Stoger both doubles and an 87

Clean up is  after I shoo the last stage I turn the gun upside down and spray heavily with Windex down the barrel. After the posse has finished shooting I go to the line and shoot 2 AA Smokeless rounds and the barrel is clean as a whistle. Don't get no easer than that.

There the secret is out. LOL


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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 10:43:23 am »

DD: to get the plastic out use a Tornado spiral brush. A regular bristle brush just terars up the plastic and makes a mess.
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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2008, 09:19:28 pm »

I'm gonna give this thread a bump even though it's a year old. I do believe this is the wad I've been looking for. The most frustrating thing for me since switching to BP has been finding wads that fit my loads. I have a light 7/8oz load for Heather, 47gr ffg with Federal 12SO wad thats tough to fit in a STS hull. For my 1 1/8oz load I use Rem SP wad with better results, however I just orderd some Down Range Orange to try. I like using plastic wads, they're quick, easy to load, throw a great pattern and are very easy to clean up. I wish the mfgs. would list their wad dimensions, it would make cyphering your favorite load a snap. Yes I'm to lazy to trim petels or cut legs. For clean up I spray a bunch Murphy's mix down the tubes, then push a piece of paper towel through. Finish up with a liberal spray down with Ballistol and Lou's bore snake dance.
http://shop2.mailordercentral.com/bpicart/prodinfo.asp?number=072SSW

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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2008, 11:40:07 am »

'Round these parts we use KD's for most shotgun work. Light loads won't take em' down.
FYI, I'm using 2 1/2 drams of FF + 1 1/8 oz shot with card/fiber wads.

Regards,
Slim
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Mako
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2008, 05:04:15 pm »

'Round these parts we use KD's for most shotgun work. Light loads won't take em' down.
FYI, I'm using 2 1/2 drams of FF + 1 1/8 oz shot with card/fiber wads.

Regards,
Slim

Slim,
I started this thread a year ago and I use the load listed on the first post.  We use knock downs or rockers for every shotgun target and I have yet to not have one go down (in fact it rocks the pivoting targets better than most shooting standard 1 1/8 oz loads.  If you try the load you will find it has a dense, tight pattern at the ranges we all typically shoot CAS shotgun targets.  You increase the powder charge and you will get more pattern spread which is great if you're hunting birds but you may not get all of the pellets you need on the steel to assure a knock down or exposing the painted base on a rocking target.  You can drop the velocity and watch the pattern get tighter and tighter.  Try it sometime on butcher paper as your target.  Depending upon the range you may finally get one ragged hole with even the wad still containing pellets passing through it.

It's a simple matter of momentum and it takes lead on steel to move it.  Momentum isn't like the kinetic energy numbers most people evaluate or speak of when talking about firearms loads.  It is simply Mass times Velocity (velocity doesn't have the significant advantage in the equation as it does with K.E.) and at some point the moment becomes sufficiently large enough to overcome the inertia of the stationary steel and cause it to move.  It is much more efficient to use a tighter pattern with less mass and velocity (which translates into recoil and cost) than to have to add 12% more shot and at a higher velocity to make up for the pellets that miss the plate.

When serving as a spotter on the posse I sometimes notice the number of pellets that hit the background around the target when you can tell it was a good center hit.  I also notice that the shooters that seem to have consistently better knock downs, or swing those rockers the most (if shooting the heathen powders) are using the Winchester  1 oz Low Recoil and Report loads or a reload of their own that attempts to duplicate it.  I will admit it may be that the low recoiling loads are more pleasant to shoot and the shooter tends to bear down more on the target, or it may even be that people who are shooting the low cost 1 1/8 field loads they pick up at a discount are not as competitive as those who go to the trouble to get the specialty 1 oz. loads. But, it is something I have noticed.

You should experiment with your loads and patterns and find out what really works the best.  Sometimes it is counter-intuitive because we think “more shot, higher velocity, better knock down.”  But remember we are pretty much using these shotguns as close range rifles and the pattern shotgunners normally strive for can work against us.

Regards,
Mako
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2008, 08:14:10 pm »

Hey Mako, thanks for finding this wad, I can't believe I missed it, I even had BPI saved in my favorites. My 7/8oz load handles the KDs with no problem, plus it will dust the clay birds on poppers. BPI also has another wad (Helix 21) that should replace the Rem wad I use for 1 1/8oz. The Helix is about 1/4'' shorter than the Rem. which should be perfect for WinAA hulls. The WinAA leaves a little hole in the crimp, it's no big deal I cut small pieces of orange juice cartons for a loose overcard. The STS hull's crimp looks like factory with the same loads. At least BPI lists most of their wads dimensions. I've  ordered 200 of both to give em a try.

      Jefro,  Relax-Enjoy
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