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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  SCORRS (Moderator: Bull Schmitt)  |  Topic: .44 Remington centerfire 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: .44 Remington centerfire  (Read 22234 times)
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Michael Tatham


« on: March 29, 2007, 01:40:04 pm »


Accoding to Flayderman's most 1875 Remingtons were chambered for .44 Remington Centerfire.

Does anyone have the dimesions of this round?

How does it compare to .44 Russian or .44 Colt?

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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2007, 02:54:25 pm »

Cartridges of the World shows no .44 Remington, other than .44 Remington Magnum, but says that .44 Colt was used in the 1875 Remington.
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2007, 02:59:11 pm »

Didn't it use a heeled base bullet? Or was that just for the '58 .44 Conversions?
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2007, 03:06:23 pm »

Halfway Creek Charlie is THE man 'round here for this question as he shoots a '58 with a Kirst cylinder chambered for the original .44 Remington (heel based). Charlie?
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2007, 04:12:25 pm »

The original rimfire cartridge that Remington utilized, was actually a .46 cal bullet.  These were conversions utilizing a 5 shot cylinder.  The original cylinder was too small in diameter to allow the use of .45 cartridges.  The .46 was a heel type bullet, and the case very much resembled the .44 Henry rimfire.  After the .44 Colt was developed, it was used with a heel type bullet.  More modern loadings use a hollow base bullet much like a Minie ball, unless the bore has been sleeved to allow the use of standard .44 bullets.  Modern repros such as the Cimarron Opentop chambered in .44 Colt, have the smaller diameter cylinder chambers and smaller bore ( nominal .44 ), to use standard .44 bullets.
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2007, 06:26:00 pm »

Thank ye FCK,

Yes the 44 Remington/Colt C.F. is a heeled bullet.

Both Kirst and R& D make 44 Rem/Colt C.F. cylinders. (I didn't know that until I found a couple for sale). I called R &D and was assured that they have them in stock too.

The FIRST 1875 Remy's were chambered for the 44 Rem/Colt C.F. NOT the 44 Colt, later chambered for 44-40. Do not know about 44 Colt.

While it is correct that 44 Colt brass is used for the 44 Rem/Colt C.F., the bullet is heeled solid base (hollow based are used for 38 LC). 248 Grn. .451 dia 3 band 2 groove, outside lubed bullet available from Old West Moulds.

44 Colt is NOTthe same as 44 Rem/Colt C.F. by above dimensions. 44 Colt bullet is .429 dia. and will bounce out the bbl.
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2007, 08:18:13 pm »

   Half-Way Creek:

   Where can I find contact information for Old West Moulds? I have a F.Wesson 2-Trigger rifle in
.44RF/CF that could use a OL bullet mould!

   Thanks Mucho & Be Well!

              M.T.Marfield:.
                 3-29-07
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Halfway Creek Charlie
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2007, 10:38:13 pm »

Bernie Knowles owns Old West Moulds
he doesn't have a website, but you can email him here.

allisonmonument@aol.com

Tell him Charlie in Acton California  sent ya.
Bernie is a good guy and will steer you right. I get all my 44 Rem/Colt C.F bullets, crimper Sizer dies and such from him. He also has several moulds and components.
No I don't get a break and I don't owe him any favors, nor am I on the payroll. He just has good stuff.
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Shooting History (original), Remy NMA Conversions, 1863 New Model Pocket Model C.F. Conversion, Remy Model 1889 12Ga. Coach Gun
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1860 Civilian Henry 45LC (soon to be 44 Henry Flat C.F.(Uberti)
Remingon Creedmore Rolling Block 45-70 (Pedersoli)

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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2007, 11:34:37 pm »

   Greetings!

   Thanks Mucho for the information! I'll drop him a line. Acton... I think that I go past you on the 14 on the way to the Range; I'm in Orange Co.
   Thanks; I'll drop your name when I eMail him!

   Be Well!

                M.T.Marfield:.
                   3-29-07
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Halfway Creek Charlie
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2007, 11:19:08 am »

You mean the Desert Marksmen Range on Angeles Forst Hiway?
Well then Yep that is Acton.
I'm about 2 1/2 miles south of the McDonald's at Crown Valley Rd.
I shoot with the Cowboy bunch at Desert Marksmen.
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Shooting History (original), Remy NMA Conversions, 1863 New Model Pocket Model C.F. Conversion, Remy Model 1889 12Ga. Coach Gun
2nd. Gen. "C" Series Colt 1851 Navies
Centennial Arms/Centaur 1860 Armies
1860 Civilian Henry 45LC (soon to be 44 Henry Flat C.F.(Uberti)
Remingon Creedmore Rolling Block 45-70 (Pedersoli)

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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2007, 11:41:20 am »

The original 44Colt and 44 Remington were basically identical, they were both 45 cal heel type bullets.  The 44Colt as produced today has a .429 bullet inside the case, and is just .06 shorter than the 44 Special, but has a slightly smaller rim.  The 44 Remington was never made in .429 caliber, and remains a 45 caliber heel type bullet.

An antique Colt 44 will require a black powder loaded heel type bullet.  Modern production (reproduction) guns use 429 bullets, and function very well with 44Colt or 44Russian ammo.  A 44Special can use all 3, and a 44Magnum can use all 4.
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Michael Tatham


« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2007, 12:22:16 pm »

Mean while back at the ranch:

I refered to Remington Handguns by Karr & Karr.  They state that .44 Colt will not chamber in an 1875 Remington chambered for .44 Remington Center fire.  Apparently the .44 Remington Center Fire is a very slightly smaller diameter.
 Undecided Huh

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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2007, 03:36:59 pm »

   Greetings, Halfway Creek!

   Well! I'm a member of DM, too. I decided to join after the shooting areas were closed. I'll have to make myself available the next time that a CowBoy shoot is scheduled. I've never been to one, and this may be fun.
   I contacted Bernie, and he's offered to send me some sample bullets; I believe that they'll work. If I buy his mould, I may even take my Evans Carbine out of mothballs! I'll let you know if I do, so we can see how it shoots.

   Thanks Again & Be Well!

              M.T.Marfield:.
                3-30-07
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Michael Tatham


« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2007, 04:17:24 pm »

  Modern production (reproduction) guns use 429 bullets, and function very well with 44Colt or 44Russian ammo.  A 44Special can use all 3, and a 44Magnum can use all 4.

That's what I'm looking for.  But apparently the original .44 Remington Center fire, is just a little smaller.

Thanks;

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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2007, 04:33:20 pm »

MTM,
Cowboy shoots at DM are third Sunday of each month. Next one will be the 15th of April. Hope to see you there. I'll be the guy what looks like my Avatar.

I used to own an Evans, Wyatt Emp wanted it back so I traded it back, for a Winchester. That old Evans shot really well. I used 44 Mag cases bevelled the bases and the 44 Colt hollowbase bullet that Dixie sells the mould for. I used some .431 Bear Creek Moly's too.
Both were a tad or more short, so I had to drop the frontend down to lever it to work smoothly, but once I stoned the innards she worked great. 
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Shooting History (original), Remy NMA Conversions, 1863 New Model Pocket Model C.F. Conversion, Remy Model 1889 12Ga. Coach Gun
2nd. Gen. "C" Series Colt 1851 Navies
Centennial Arms/Centaur 1860 Armies
1860 Civilian Henry 45LC (soon to be 44 Henry Flat C.F.(Uberti)
Remingon Creedmore Rolling Block 45-70 (Pedersoli)

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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2007, 05:43:59 am »

Actually the Remington conversions were chambered for three distinctly different cartridges:  The .46 rimfire which was the earliest in 1868, made up on the NMA with a 5 shot cylinder.  The .44 Centerfire Martin, which had a 6 shot cylinder, and the .45 caliber centerfire cartridge which also had a 6 shot cylinder.  Dimensions were different for all of these.  These are the offerings of the factory.  I am sure that aftermarket or blacksmith conversions may have utilized different cartridges in some instances.

It is also the MARTIN -- not Marlin cartridge.  It is not the same as the .44 Colt, as the date was 1869, and Colt had not gotten past the Theur Conversions at that time.  When the 1875 was brought out, it utilized the .44 WCF and .45 Colt. 
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2007, 10:27:56 pm »

FJ,
The Armory 44 Chambering would chamber the 44 Martin, the 44 S & W Russian, and the 44 Remington. The 46 RF chambering also accepted the 44 RF. This come from pages 61 and 62 in Bruce McDowell's book, and I have found also that the 46 RF also chambers 44 Rem./Colt C.F.

The longer 46 Rf carbine cartridge was used in the 46 R.F. was also used in the 46 R.F.factory and non factory conversions.

I have An Armory 46 RF conversion (later converted to C.F.) here that I'm making a recoil plate for and the cylinder will chamber 44 Rem/Colt C.F. and 44 Rem. Mag brass.(the latter being almost a perfect fit due to the larger Rim dia. I believe it to be the same Dia as the old 46 RF, if not Dead on, then mightily close). The 44 Rem/Colt (44 Colt brass)chambers fine and doesn't wobble in the chamber, but the rim dia is smaller.

The first 1873 Remingtons were chambered in the 44 Rem/Colt C.F.

My Armory conversion in 44 Rem. is s/n between the two pictured on page 63 of McDowell's book. Mine is of the type of the top picture.
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Shooting History (original), Remy NMA Conversions, 1863 New Model Pocket Model C.F. Conversion, Remy Model 1889 12Ga. Coach Gun
2nd. Gen. "C" Series Colt 1851 Navies
Centennial Arms/Centaur 1860 Armies
1860 Civilian Henry 45LC (soon to be 44 Henry Flat C.F.(Uberti)
Remingon Creedmore Rolling Block 45-70 (Pedersoli)

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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2007, 11:05:08 pm »

FWIW, production of the Martin primed .44 cartridges was terminated in December of 1871 by the gov't.
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2007, 11:40:55 pm »

Mc Dowell states in his book that the 44 Remington and 44 Colt were developed in 1870-1871, And that There are boxes of 44 Remington/Colt Frankford Arsenal, marked 1871. He states in all likelihood, there were 44 Rem/Colt conversions in the hands of the Army before that April 1871 date.

This may be the cause of the demise of the 44 Martin.
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Shooting History (original), Remy NMA Conversions, 1863 New Model Pocket Model C.F. Conversion, Remy Model 1889 12Ga. Coach Gun
2nd. Gen. "C" Series Colt 1851 Navies
Centennial Arms/Centaur 1860 Armies
1860 Civilian Henry 45LC (soon to be 44 Henry Flat C.F.(Uberti)
Remingon Creedmore Rolling Block 45-70 (Pedersoli)

"Cut his ears off and send them to that Marshall in Sheridan" Prentice Ritter

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« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2007, 01:20:15 am »

Quote
This may be the cause of the demise of the 44 Martin.

Nope. The cause was a high failure rate.  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2017, 10:40:08 am »

 Undecided The44 Uberti Remington 1858 conversion uses 45 Colt cartridges. Is the bore of the 1875 Remington in 44 Rem. the same bore dimensions as the 1858? IF SO, could a 44 Remington Cylinder be re-chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge? I have 150 smokeless 44 Rem cartridges coming from CAD , a company specializing in obsolete cartridges. They use 4 gr of Bullseye instead of BP. I can order lead from them but can't find dies or instructions on a heeled reloading setup. It would be MUCH easier if the cylinder were re-chambered, Where would I find info on the barrel dimensions, The cylinder dimensions are such that this re-chambering is feasible. Any help appreciated. Dorty Doc
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2017, 02:26:20 pm »

Don't make the mistake of comparing originals with replica's....
Replica's are built for (more or less) commercial ammo and for originals you have to be creative sometimes...
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2017, 03:55:25 pm »

Undecided The44 Uberti Remington 1858 conversion uses 45 Colt cartridges. Is the bore of the 1875 Remington in 44 Rem. the same bore dimensions as the 1858? IF SO, could a 44 Remington Cylinder be re-chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge? I have 150 smokeless 44 Rem cartridges coming from CAD , a company specializing in obsolete cartridges. They use 4 gr of Bullseye instead of BP. I can order lead from them but can't find dies or instructions on a heeled reloading setup. It would be MUCH easier if the cylinder were re-chambered, Where would I find info on the barrel dimensions, The cylinder dimensions are such that this re-chambering is feasible. Any help appreciated. Dorty Doc

Greetings My Good Doc -
your post is a little confusing -
I see you have already ordered "150 smokeless 44 Rem cartridges coming from CAD"
can you post a link to those?
also, what do you intend to shoot them out of, you mentioned both
    "Uberti Remington 1858 conversion"
and
    "1875 Remington in 44 Rem"

more details will help us help you :-)
best regards
yhs
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2017, 10:43:22 pm »

The first 1858 conversions were 5 shot in .46 "French" rimfire.  Remington paid royalties to S&W to be able to do it.  They were predominantly for the Army.  After that, they made them in .44 Martin.  Generally the .44 Martin was interchangeable.  The .44 Remington and Colt labeled cartridges were mostly interchangeable.  Sometimes batches run for Remington or Colt would not interchange one for the other, but they were nominally the same. Early 1875s were chambered in .44 Martin/Remington.  McDowell covers it well in his book, as does Venturino in his.
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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2017, 03:14:48 pm »

Grin  I found an original 1975 in 44REMc.f.. I spent months trying to figger how to shoot it. Re-chambering to 45 Colt would mess with a VALUABLE original and bore needs to be slugged to determine choices. In CAS, I use Uberti 1858s with R&D 45 Colt cylinders; Faster to switch cylinders than to load them. With help, I found GAD Custom Cartridges and Old West Bullet Moulds. If you have an original, contact the gentlemen listed below and forget about alterations. Roll yer own. Dirty Doc

   From my  SASS thread "I Had a nice technical talk with Bernie at Old West Bullet Moulds. He's sending me a box of cartridges made on his equipment with his brass, lead and Trailboss or Clays (I forget which, but these are the 2 powders I use for everything). If these test loads drop in, far and hit the inside of the barn I will then order the needed supplies to roll my own. If they do NOT, I will polish the chambers or SLIGHTLY relieve them if too tight for 44REMc.f.. I got a wealth of information from Bernie https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/ and from bernold at GAD  Custom Cartridges http://gadcustomcartridges.com/ , from which I have 3 boxes of different weight bullets using BULLSEYE. powder. I will know after Christmas vacation. MERRY CHRISTMAS! DOC"
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