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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  BROW (Moderator: Delmonico)  |  Topic: IAB Sharps 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: IAB Sharps  (Read 42371 times)
IE300
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IT AIN'T A BIG .50 - IT'S JUST A LITTLE 45-70


« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2011, 06:49:03 pm »

Yeah, I was real happy to get my hands on that H&R Officers Model. I remember back in the 70's when I first saw them in a gun magazine, I thought "Boy. Wish I could afford one of them!" And I was nothin' like a single shot guy back than, but I just thought it really looked like history. I was only 17 years old, but my parents had just moved from New York to Phoeniz Arizona and I was in Gun Heaven! I remember the first time a police officer asked me why I was wearing a handgun, and I told him I was going to show it to a friend. He said "OK Sir. Have a nice day" New York and the Sullivan Act were 2000 miles away and I was a real cowboy for the first time in my life. Felt like home. The gun was a Ruger Single Six Convertable and I was carrying it in a Hunter holster, and they were both Christmas presents from my parents. I had asked for a Colt .22 SA, but my Dad said the Ruger was a better gun. The year before for Christmas I had wanted a Winchester 9422, and my Dad gave me a Marlin model 39M saying it was a better gun. My Dad was right about both guns, but I guess in the long run the Colt would have been a better investment than the Ruger. Anyway, I digress. I wanted the H&R Trapdoor, but couldn't afford it. So my first big bore (by my standards back than) ended up being a SMLE in pretty nice shape after the cosmonline was gone. Got it for $40. and that included 10 rounds of surplus ammo, from Mandalls Shooters Supply in Scottsdale. From up in the hills I could shoot at something a good half mile away, and it sure looked like I was comming pretty close to hitting it. So it wasn't a Trapdoor or a 45-70, but in the hills of Arizona I had my own personal .303 caliber Creedmore Match going as a 17 year old. Long as I didn't run out of ammo or food and water, I was pretty much in heaven. I doubt I'll ever feel so happy again. When I went up to the same hill with my Marlin 39 and a brick of .22's I could be John Wayne all day long. Than I had to go and grow up. Damn! Cry
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« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2011, 08:54:36 pm »

Back in the day we used to shoot from the north side of the hills near 51st ave and the 101.  Shooting south with a 3006 had we missed the mountain the bullet would have hit empty desert.
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« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2011, 09:01:12 am »

When we first moved out to Phoenix we rented a house on 67th Ave. built by John F. Long who built about 20,000 other houses just like it. You could buy 'em for about $12,000. but ours was right across the street from about a million acres of cabbage. You know what a million acres of cabbage smells like growing in the desert at 110 degrees? Let's just say it aint something you get used to very easy. Anyway, my parents only rented that house for a few months before we moved away from the cabbage and closer into Phoenix. I used to go shooting up in the hills West of Phoenix in an area where they built and tested Catapliiar tractors, some of 'em big as buildings. I'd go up in the hills and look down. If the tractors were West of me, I'd shoot toward the East. I could see for miles, and there was never any danger of my bullets going astray. That was pretty nice out there, but my favorite place to shoot was called Pinnicle Peak which was North of Scottsdale. Beautiful place. Again, up on the hills a full view of the area around you so you always knew you were shooting in a safe direction away from anybody who might happen along. Mostly just other shooters and a few dirt bikes and doon buggys. You would hear 'em from a long way off, and just take a break from your shootin' until they passed and it was empty desert again. The Pinnicle Peak General Store wasn't too far, so you could get whatever drinks or snacks you needed. End of the day you pack up and head back. Stop at Rawhyde Village for dinner and a cold beer, and if you timed it right you would finish dinner in time to go out to the street for the gunfight and maybe see a bad guy get hanged. I'd let sombody cut off my little finger to have one of those days again. I know Rawhyde Village is still there, but I hear they built condos out in Pinnicle Peak. I guess thats what passes as progress to some people. The people who sell the condos anyway. Undecided
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« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2011, 05:01:39 pm »

There's a heck of a lot more than condos up there now. But Greasewood Flats is still there. Right in Rietta Pass. WM
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« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2011, 05:39:31 pm »

Well now I went an' dun sumpthin' never thought I'd do. When I was a kid with my Marlin 39M with the 3x7 Tasco knockin' beer cans in the Arizona desert 100 yards away, I just couldn't believe when I heard some people were puttin' scopes on rifles that cost more than the rifles! I mean, if my $10. Tasco was hittin' cans at 100 yards, why the heck would anybody spend more? I guess I knew that a scope for a centerfire would cost a little more cause' it has to be a little stronger. But the glass costin' more than the gun?  Heck, I'd rather buy another gun and make due with a Tasco.
Well, I guess I've grown up. It aint quite cost more than the gun (an IAB Sharps that I got for $550.) , but I just spent about $467. on a Leatherwood Malcolm scope and accessories. Got the 6x 32" scope with a 3" extension tube to fit my 28.5" barrel, fine adjustment set (just the one that upgrades the adjustable mount that the scope comes with, not the real nice $235. precission adjustable mount (thats another day maybe), and a couple of extra tube locking clamps. Buffalo Arms listing says that the scope package comes with one of the clamps standard, but I saved about $40. buying from somebody else, and this sombody else doesn't say in their description if the scope comes with a locking clamp or not. The reason I got 2 was because I had read that sombody found their install was a lot more secure by putting a clamp on both sides of the rear base instead of only on the front side. And I figure if the seller does include a clamp so I have 3, I'll put 2 on the rear base, and maybe 1 on the front base. Or maybe not, we'll see when I start fooling around with the setup.
Now I've read horror stories about these setups, and also read that some people think they are great. I guess I'll see. I know that some people have done the install themselves and had no problems, but a lot of the sellers state strongly that install should be by a gunsmith. Well I aint a gunsmith, but I've done some hobby machine work and I have a decent drill press. I've done some pretty fine drilling and tapping, and my experience has been that when you take your time and measure twice, cut once, you can do OK. In fact, my policy has always been to measure 63 times, and cut once. I figure I'll read as much as I can before I even start, than get the right stuff from Brownell's, and see if I can pull it off. I'm not adverse to paying a gunsmith some money ($50. - $100.?) to do the job, but here on Long Island gun shops are scarce and gunsmiths don't even seem to exist. I suppose if I found one, he would probably have an 18 month waiting list. I have successfully mounted scopes before, but never anything that required drilling and tapping. As long as I had the right rings and mounts it hasn't been a problem.
Now maybe some of you could make some suggestions, either as far as doing it myself or having somebody else do it for me. I sure hope so, because spending that kind of money on a scope setup is hard, but ruining my gun and scope would be a lot harder. Hope to hear from you all, and many thanks in advance!
Yippi Kiyo Kiyay! (Hope I spelled that right!)


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« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2011, 05:50:51 pm »

The scope you bought is a good piece of optics, but the mounts that it comes with are pure junk. Well the front mount is ok if it doesn't break, but the rear mount is .....
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« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2011, 05:58:04 pm »

There's a heck of a lot more than condos up there now. But Greasewood Flats is still there. Right is n Rietta Pass. WM
Well I don't remember Greaswood Flats, but I remember the Rietta Pass Steakhouse. You go in there and there were thousands of neckties hanging from the ceiling. The deal was that if you went in there wearing a necktie, a pretty Cowgirl would come out and welcome you by cutting off your tie with the biggest pair of shears you ever saw, than your tie would get nailed to the ceiling with the rest of em'. Never went to the Rietta Pass Steakhouse without wearing a necktie, cause who would want to miss all that attention from a pretty Cowgirl with a big pair of shears! It was really fun to watch when sombody came in wearing a tie who didn't know the rules and weren't expecting all that attention. It was kind of a tradition to bring out of towners there for dinner, telling them beforehand that even though the place was kind of informal, they required ment to wear a tie to come in. It was a lot of fun, but I think you were OK if you wore a Bolo tie with a nice turquoise clasp. I miss going there with my parents more than I can say. You never know how great times are until your looking back on 'em. Maybe I'll get to be with my parents again at Rietta Pass after the sun sets. I sure do hope so. Wink
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« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2011, 06:26:33 pm »

The scope you bought is a good piece of optics, but the mounts that it comes with are pure junk. Well the front mount is ok if it doesn't break, but the rear mount is .....
Yeah, that seems to be the consensis. Good optics, bad mounts. What do you think about the $235. precission mount they offer? I am kind of resigned to the fact that I may well have to upgrade, but they don't give you any upgrade option when you buy the scope. Anyway, when the time comes, do you think the Leatherwood Malcolm precission rear mount will do justice to the optics, or should I think about looking at a different brand of mount to use with the scope? The people who seem to be happy with the setups, do you think they just lucked out and happened to get a mount that was put together when all the planets were properly alligned? Or do they just not understand the equipment they are using and don't know any better? What exactly am I going to find lacking in this equipment? I am far from an expert, but I understand concepts like not being able to hold position in order to be able to repeat hitting the same point shot after shot. I guess my biggest concern would be if the rear mount was unable to set firmly in position in order to repeat shot placement. I would be happy if I could get the scope to zero and lock its settings so they would maintain position. Being able to adjust settings after initial sighting in wouldn't be that important to me, at least not initially. So you tell me, will I not even be able to set it and forget it, so that if I shoot at 200 yards consistantly I will be able to hit the same point, assuming I do my part? Or will it not even give me that? And like I asked above, will I be able to set up this scope with a mount that you know of and be able to get satisfactory results? Or should I just send the thing back and start over? Somebody somewhere is making these rifles shoot what they are aiming at with these scopes. And while I can accept the fact that it won't be cheap, I have a hard time believing that you have to spend well over $1,000. to make it happen. I'm not looking to win Creedmore, just have some fun shooting my rifle and hitting what I aim at. Is a $100. rimfire rifle with a $20. scope the only way I can do that?
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« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2011, 06:32:47 pm »

They usually end up getting a set of MVA mounts to get the scope to working properly.
You could also get a set of the DZ Arms unertl type mounts but you won't have a lot of elevation adjustment. I have a set of those with a 6x18 leatherwood malcolm scope.
 You might want to visit with Dan Zimmerman, to see what he might suggest.

Also you can contact Jerry at Powder Inc. and visit with him about your scope, they are a major supplier of those scopes.
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« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2011, 09:57:24 am »

I'm affraid I just cant afford to upgrade tha mounts to the MVA or similar. It's just not even possable with the funds I have available. About the best I can do would be to upgrade to the Leatherwood Malcolm Precision Long Range Mount with Fine Windage & Elevation. The company I purchased from advised me that if I wanted to I could cancel the Fine Elevation Adjustment upgrade I had ordered for the base that comes with the scope, and that they would sell me the Precision Long Range Mount at a pretty substantial discount. Now I realize that anybody can say anything, but for what it's worth here is what Hi-Lux says in their description of this mount;
<I>Designed for the discriminating BPCR shooter who demands the utmost in precision sight adjustment. And when installed on our “Wm Malcolm” scope, the combination will blow all others away when it comes to precision adjustment…precision sighting…and precision shooting. These superbly crafted mounts have been designed to reliably give shooter ¼” MOA windage and elevation adjustments when needed, while totally eliminating unwanted movement due to “slop” or “slap” from recoil. Thanks to the solid “Unertl” type steel base, the precision mount allows the scope to be totally removed from the rifle then replaced without any changes to adjustment</I>
From what I see regarding the Leatherwood Malcolm Scope products line, this is their best scope coupled with their best mount. Within their product line, I don't think they offer anything of higher quality. The only other option I can see within their product line is their Unertle type mount, but I get the impression that this mount is meant to use with their shorter tube scopes.
So here is what it comes down to: either I figure out a way to make this setup work with the upgraded Leatherwood Precision Long Distance Mount, or I wait for the stuff to be delivered and send it back unopened for a refund and live without a scope setup. The shipping to me is free, so I would only be out the cost of return shipping and whatever delay there might be in getting a refund.
I am really hoping to hear from someone who has actually bought and used this scope with this mount. Again, I thank you all in advance for your help and advice.
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« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2011, 05:40:16 pm »

Well do what you think you must, but the difference in price between the upgraded Leatherwood mounts and the MVA mounts is not that large .
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« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2011, 08:53:30 pm »

Well Ranch 13,

I certainly do appreciate your input. I've read a lot of your posts and no doubt you are a man who has had some experience in this field, and your opinions about the Leatherwood Malcome mounts are pretty consistant with other knowledgable posters on this subject. Since I've already got the stuff on the way, I'll see what I get. I did get the upgraded "Precission" mount at a cost of an additional $175. only because after speaking with Jerry at Powder Inc. he said it was better than the standard mount even with the "Fine" elevation adjustment kit. I have to admit though that Jerry didn't seem to have a lot of enthusiasm in his voice when he said it was better. I did confirm with the company I bought this stuff from that I can return it for a refund if I want. Since the shipping was free, I'd only be out the cost of return shipping and the hassle of having to do that.  One thing I also got was the sliding mount set up since I thought allowing the scope to slide on recoil might minimize some of the impact and potential dammage to the dovetails. Since I will be mostly using this setup for shooting at ranges probably not exceeding 500 yards, maybe my requirements won't be so demanding and I will be satisfied with it. I don't plan on adjusting for every couple of shots, but I do want to hit what I aim at. So we will see. I'll give it a try, unless it just looks so bad that I won't even bother installing these mounts. All that being said, I wouldn't be all that surprized if I ended up keeping the scope, returning all the other stuff, and buying the mounts guys like you are recomending. I'll just make sure I keep everything in returnable condition so there is no problem with that.
One thing I am really having a hard time understanding though. The consensis is pretty consistant that the scope itself is really a pretty good piece of equipment, so why has a company with a good reputation like Leatherwood matching up this good scope with substandard mounts? I mean, say what you want about Chinese products, but the fact is that they are capable of manufacturing some pretty good precission machined items. And usually at a very competative price. I mean, I just got a $20. micrometer from them with a rated accuracy of .0001" and I bet if I checked it I would find it lives up to that claim. So the Chinese have the capability as long as the customer demands the quality. My point is that if Leatherwood had one of their QC people go over there with a sample of a mount that was a well made precission piece, the Chinese could produce it. They would have to charge a little more for it, and Leatherwood would have to go to the trouble of sourcing the manufacturers who could deliver. But it could be done. So the question is why isn't Leatherwood going to the trouble of assuring that this otherwise good scope is sold with mounts that will be up to their customers expectations. And just so you know, I have been to both Hong Kong and Taiwan as a buyer of products for a company that I had in the 1980's, and I have experienced this situation first hand. You go over, meet with manufacturers, tour their facilities, show them what you want. If you meet the right manufacturer, you can easily have prototypes of your product available within a week. And as long as they know you aren't just kicking tires, they will deliver. The quality is just a matter of negotiation and price, but they can do it. So really, it's Leatherwood who needs to step up to the plate and demand the products that their customers want. I honestly don't know why they haven't done it yet. Maybe some other American company should go over there and do what Leatherwood won't. If I was in the position to do it at this point of my life, I guarantee you I could get it done. I could have good usable mounts for these scopes over here in quantity within a few months. And this is an ideal product from an importers perspective. Small, light, and inexpensive to ship by air. Have 'em air freighted over here a few hundred at a time. Keep your initial quantities small so you can inspect each and every piece, and make it clear that they will be getting returns of anything not to spec. I would love to do it, and it would be very easily done. OK, I'm done. I'll tell you what happens when I get my Leatherwood stuff. Thanks again!
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« Reply #87 on: November 01, 2011, 10:09:54 pm »

Looking forward to your report .
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« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2011, 10:38:05 pm »

Looking forward to your report .

I hope it is shorter than his other posts.  I get tired before I even get into them Grin Huh
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« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2011, 10:40:18 pm »

 Grin
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« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2011, 09:49:48 am »

IE300;  I apologize if I came across as a curmudgeon.  I hope I can be more constructive.  I was tired and had a a headache and I just couldn`t get into reading your posts.  I knew you had something interesting to say as Pards were responding, but for the life of me, all I saw was a series of concrete bricks before my eyes.

Please use paragraphs, or even point form, so tired old Pharts like me can pick out what is important.

Please don`t take it personal, as this forum prides itself on being helpful and friendly

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« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2011, 03:51:47 pm »

No apology needed. I know I tend to get verbose and use more words than I need to. I will try to stay on point and break my thoughts into paragraphs.
Part of my problem is that I live alone in a part of the country where there aren't a lot of gun people, so I try to make up for my lack of social life here in this forum.  Guns have always been my main passion, and my only regular interaction with others who share my interest is my once a month Northeast Arms Collector Association meeting, and my participation in this forum. And for the record, I'm an old fart too, or I'd probably have better things to do with my time.
Anybody got any ideas about my thoughts as to why Leatherwood doesn't put the pressure on to their suppliers to provide mounts worthy of their Malcolm scopes? Hope that was short enough.
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« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2011, 03:54:39 pm »

The $12,000 john f long home was some what of a clue to your phart status - ya know kinda old like the rest of us discussing shooting where houses now are.
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« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2011, 05:44:06 pm »

IE300, if learn ta type with 2 fingers like me ya probably would shorten it up a little.  Roll Eyes WM  PS no disrespect intended, I gotta go rest my fingers now.
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« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2011, 06:25:54 pm »

IE300, as you've seen already, Sir Chas was being a bit facetious, but he means NO disrespect.  As to me, write as much or as little as you feel.  I have been verbose myself.  Once, anyway.

 Shocked

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 Grin

Actually, I'm only verbose when I'm alone or with somebody.

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« Reply #95 on: November 04, 2011, 11:05:23 am »

I do type with 2 fingers and it don't go fast. But I get cought up in my thoughts and can't seem to make myself stop writing until I've said my fill. Probably why I live alone. Fortunately my cat likes it when I talk to him. He's a good listener and agrees with everything I say. I prefer dogs, but I can't have one in my apartment, so I had to settle for rescuing a kitten that somebody dropped off at a dumpster where I was building a medical facility. Anyway, I named my cat "Dog" so I can have a dog even though it's a cat. Next cat I rescue is going to be real big so I can ride him and name him "Horse".
Now look at me. I'm getting long winded and I'm not even talking about guns! Guess I'll put a cork in it until I have something more to contribute. Well, as Walter Brennin once said,"Boney Notches!"
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« Reply #96 on: November 04, 2011, 12:02:47 pm »

 Grin WM
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« Reply #97 on: November 04, 2011, 04:59:35 pm »

Well, bones and notches to you, too!
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IT AIN'T A BIG .50 - IT'S JUST A LITTLE 45-70


« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2011, 10:32:49 am »

The adventure begins. Got my Malcom and accessories and after looking at it and getting totally confused by the instructions, I decided that the best way to familiarize myself with the setup was to start as if I had just gotten the basic setup with the standard rear mount that comes with the scope. Being unfamiliar with scopes and mounts in general, this turned out to be a good idea, as it allowed me to become familiar with the different components of the rear mount.
The front mount was a very simple install, and assuming it doesn't break as a result of recoil shouldn't present any difficulties other than maybe fine tuning it to get it in the exact center of the barrel dovetail. I moved on to the rear mount, and as I said, after looking at the instructions I decided to install the basic mount that comes with the scope. When I change it out for the precission mount that I got I will be familiar with the basic setup and will just be doing an upgrade, or so the theory goes.
Got the rear mount installed, minus the extra mounting screws which require drilling and tapping. I wont be shooting until these screws are installed, so this is really kind of a "dry run" to check everything for position. Since I can't locally  find the 8-40 bottom tap I need for the secure install, I will be ordering the tap and a Taprite Tap Guide from Brownells. The 8-40 bottoming tap I am going to order is Brownell's "Perfect Cut" 3 flute tap. Regarding the drill for the mounting hole to be tapped, Brownell's has a chart showing the size drill used for a given tap. It shows a #28 Tap Drill Size, and a #16 Clearance Drill Size. In machine shop practice I've always seen just one size drill matched to a specific tap on the drill/tap charts I've used in the past. Maybe if someone can explaine this to me I would know if I should buy both sizes of drill.
Anyway, I have the scope temperarily mounted on the rifle. First thing I noticed is that in order for the hammer to clear the scope, the rear mount has to be set in a very high position. At the front mount the scope is about .60" above the top of the barrel, but above the chamber the scope is 1.30 above the top of the barrel. To lower the rear of the scope would cause the hammer to hit the scope. Looks like the only cure for this problem would be to offset the scope to the left side of the barrel substantially, or the alter the shape of the hammer or replace it with a hammer which had a much lower thumb spur, or spur which was canted off to the side away from the scope. I could just cut and file a notch in the left side of the hammer spur and that would do the trick, but it wouldn't look too good. My preference would be to have the spur lowered and extended toward the rear. I think that would still provide good purchase for thumbing back the hammer, but provide the clearance I need for the scope. I wouldn't mind even notching the side of the hammer spur as long as I could find an unaltered one to keep with the gun so it could be made original again.
I'm thinking that this must be a somewhat common problem, as the scope tube would be in the same position regardless of manufacturer. And from appearances, it looks like most Sharps rifles have similar looking hammers that don't appear to be offset to the right. Any suggestions or similar experiences would be appreciated. Sorry for another long post, but I couldn't get the needed info in a shorter one. Thanks!
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IT AIN'T A BIG .50 - IT'S JUST A LITTLE 45-70


« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2011, 08:14:33 pm »

As you might expect, looks like the guys who have been around the block a few times know what they are talking about. I'll spare you the details, but the Leatherwood Malcolm "precission" mount leaves something to be desired as far as I can see so far. I haven't even mounted it, but just playing with it I get a few impressions.
First, as I have sometimes seen with some machine tools that come out of China, the components seem to be fairly well designed, and even fairly well machined but not to the point of being a finished product. Some machining faults that would have not passed inspection if ther were any QC to speak of, and lots of rough surfaces which go well beyond being visually unattractive. No chance of smooth operation between bearing surfaces as the unit comes to you.
Second, the components are obviously asssembled by people who are basically taught that part number one gets screwed to part number two with two part number three screws. The components are put together, probably in correct order, but with no understanding as to how the parts are supposed to interact with each other. I once had a small Chinese lathe which, once I took it apart, cleaned the surfaces, and reassembled it with some care, was actually a pretty good machine tool. But it took a lot of time and effort, and everything had to be recalibrated and tightened down on a regular basis. When I did that, I had the time and actually enjoyed the challange. I basically looked at it as a preassembled kit. And that's how I see this mount, as more or less a preassembled kit. But I don't really waant to spend the time or effort to make it right. And if I did, I'm not so sure that it would stand up to the forces of recoil and be able to maintain it's calibration. In fact, I seriously doubt it. And I think it would be an excercise in frustration to try to get some consistancy out of it.
So on to plan B.
I'm going to send everything back, including the scope, which I like. I am than going to reorder the 18" 6 power scope with the Sharps style side mount and DZ Arms Unertl mounts. At least thats my plan right now. Buffalo Arms has this as a package only without the Sharps side mount. The side mount looked like a good solid mount since it gets bolted to the side of the frame in 2 places, using two of the original threaded bolt holes. How tightly the mount gets installed to the top of the side base I have to look into more carefully. As usual, suggestions are invited and welcomed.
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