BP Rifle Cartridge Question

[Standpat Steve]

Howdy,

In the historic section, there is a thread on buffalo hunting. In it they reprint part of an old buffalo hunter talking about reloading for his rifle. He talks about filling the cartridge to about 1/2" from the top with black powder, compressing the load, inserting the wad, ADDING A LITTLE POWDER UNDER THE BULLET, and then seating the bullet. I've never heard of adding the powder under the bullet and over the wad. Any of you black powder demons know what the advantage of this practice would be?

Thanks.

[Uncle Eph]

I have read several different reasons for that practice; a little BP against the base would "seal" the bullet in the bore, paper patch would burn away cleaner so that it would not cling to the bullet in flight, kept the barrel from fouling as quickly.

many years ago when I first started reloading "Buffalo" rifles the old boy that taught me did that litle trick with the powder and when I asked why he told me "because that was the way I was taught, now shutup and pass me that bottle."

I know I have heard other reasons but I am drawing a black right now.

[Delmonico]

Check out my post on the subject, Uncle I think we are close on the reason.  The Paper patch should never burn, so that ain't the reason.  I don't know how to prove it but I even doubt the powder on top of the wad would light.  Any one got one of those fancy high speed cameras handy?  I could tell anyone who doubts it why I don't think it would light, but the post would be a fairly large one and I might have to dig a couple of days to find the tech information.  To put it in simple terms, it ain't gonna be hot enough between the bullet and the wad to light it's fuse.

Just cause thats the way it was always done don't mean it's right.  Remember doctors used ta bleed ya for most everything.  If that wasn't right they gave you mercury.

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[Tangle Eye]

I wonder how their (the old orginal buffalo hunter's) loads compare with ours in accuracy, consistency, etc.  I like that "about a half inch from the top".  One reason I started messing with black powder years ago was to get away from weighing powder down to the tenth of a grain with smokeless rifle cartridges.  Black is a little more forgiving in my opinion -- not that you don't have to pay attention and be specific.

[Uncle Eph]

I know what you mean Tangle Eye, I always use to fill my cases up to where I could seat the bullet with just a tad of compression, then I bought one of those new-fangle electronic scales and the next thing you know I was counting tenths.

the sad part is now that I weigh each charge, weight the bullet, and fuss with the case, my accuracy is greatly improved.

Del, I agree with you about the paper not burning off, but I am just as sure that I have read somewhere that that was the reason it was done.

great subject, lets keep it up.

[T.J. McSuds]

 Perhaps the reason for adding a little powder between the wad and bullet was to keep the wad from sticking to the base of the bullet. If part of the wad stuck to the bullet it could effect the accuracy. I have read somewhere that a wad or card should never be used  with a hollow base bullet.

[Delmonico]

Ok someone with the Lee hollow based mould we have a spearmint fer ya.  Try accuracy with and without the powder on top of the wad and give us back a report.  That might make sense.  I added a grease wad to my load a few years ago, well the only problem was once in a while there were bullets that did not go as steared and then I found grease wads over 100 yards down range.   A second milk carton wad between the bullet and the base cured it. 

With the hollow based bullet and the carbine load, with it's wads, might that be a reason ya often read about the carbine being inaccurate.

[Uncle Eph]

Eureka!! I knew there was another reason and a sticky wad was it.  I know that I read something about the wad effecting the flight of the bullet and whatever modern shooter I was reading claimed that the wad could not have a negitive effect on the bullet.

who knows.

[Tangle Eye]

That business about the wad, card, whatever getting up into the hollow base and causing accuracy problems makes sense. That could be exactly the reason they put powder on top of it.  I've wondered about that with my own loads too.  That is I put a paper card on top of the powder, then the grease cookie, then the bullet.  I've wondered if sometimes some of the grease cookie might stick to the bullet base.

[Delmonico]

The base of the bullet is the most important part.  Thats why folks like Harry Pope made Nose pour bullets.  I would bet if you put a thin dry card wad between yer bullet and grease cookie unexplainded flyers would lessen.  And a wad sticking in the base of a hollow base bullet for even a few feet would ruin any chance at bein accurate.

[Silver Creek Slim]

I have some HB 405's that I think are from the Lee mould. I didn't cast them. I might have to do some spearminting. 

Slim

[Tangle Eye]

Sounds like I may try putting a card over the grease cookie too.  I suppose all the compression when the powder goes boom will sqeeze the cookie lube out as normal.  I may have to change the compression die a bit though to make allowances for the additional card. I've got the bullet seated far enough out that it is in the rifling already. I guess another .025 compression shouldn't change stuff much - I'm already compressing the daylights out of it to get 60 gr in the case anyhow (.45-70).  The compression may not be quite as accurate as the old guys who whopped it with a hammer though. 

[Uncle Eph]

Tangle Eye, have you ever thought about doing away with that grease cookie?  I have pulled cartridges apart and have found that the grease has been compressed past the wad and on to the powder its self.  I know that gooey powder is not a good thing.

when I first started loading for something besides 45-70, I had a New York Shiloh Sharps in 45-90 and wanting to get my money's worth  I filled those cases to the brim and rammed that bullet down, needless to say I ruined some cases and that was back in the day of Basic Brass and trim dies, so I belled the mouth of the case so I could seat the bullet and that caused the grease cookie and wad to be a tad small and it was a mess, plus the chunks of half burned powder would set the grass on fire about ten feet in front of me.

[Delmonico]

I use a felt wad stamped out a that stuff from the craft store that is bout 29 cents a sheet.  Can get in a variety of colors if desired.   I dip the wads in my lube mix of 50/50 beeswax/deer tallow.

I use the RCBS-500-BPS bullet, Remington cases full sized, Fed 215 spark plugs, 2 milk carton wads and one felt wad and 60 grs Goex CTG.  This is about touching the lands in My Petersoli Sharps.

61 grains would creep a bit and not seat all the time.  This will shoot better than my Petersoli tang and globe sights will let me.  Any that I  have pulled don't ooze lube at all. 

I sent 40 of these bullets ta Slim last weekend, we will await his report.

[Tangle Eye]

Eph - I've sure thought about losing the cookie.  I usually wipe the barrel after every 5 or so shots anyway and that big bullet holds a fair amount of lube too.  I've never had a problem without the cookie when I've tried that so I may take your idea up and simplify things a bit.  I've also thought about the felt stuff Delmonico was talkin about to hold more lube than the bullet does but I'd be afraid it would run out and contaminate the powder in hot weather down South.

[Delmonico]

Tangle Eye, If you are worried about heat, try my recipe for lube.  A freind left a box of bullets in his truck, closed up in July, the weather was a 100 degrees and the lube stayed in place.  That is the reason for the deer tallow it is soft but has a higher meltin' point than lard or beef tallow (ok, the cosie in me is comin' out) veg oils are already liquid. 

[Tangle Eye]

I guess I'd like to know if the old time buffalo hunters used grease cookies - I'll bet not because of the trouble to make and load with 'em.  Of course that's probably a hysterical I mean historical question.

[Delmonico]

Most used paper patched bullets, some dipped the base in lube.  Somewhere I read that those who used lubed bullets, used buffalo tallow beeswax mix.  I think long range shooters used a grease wad, I bet buffalow hunters did two.  The felt wad dipped is much easier.

[Uncle Eph]

a lot of big time shooters hand seated the bullets and wiped between every shot, the wad was there mainly to hold the powder in place and not as any kind of "self-luber".

from what I have read (including my g-grandfathers letter from the buffalo range) most buffalo runners were not expert marksman, Billy Dixon is the exception that proves the rule, I would thik that there loading practices were fast and dirty.

[Delmonico]

Most lilkey you are right, most worked from 2-300 yards from the buff.  That is really a big target, since they shot for the lungs.