Single Acton Kit

[Banjoman]

Just wondering if there's any interest in a single action kit.  We'd do the barrel and cylinder fit and the action work.  You'd do the rest.   All parts would be included and with  your choice of hard rubber or one piece walnut.  Because the kit would include the frame, it would have to be transfered through an FFL dealer.
Banjoman

[SAAJim]

Banjoman,
I'd definitely be interested. I'm assuming there would be a price break. I have a question - if you're fitting the barrel/cylinder and doing the action work, what's left for us to do besides just assembling the gun?? Is the gun finished or left in the white?

Thanks,
Jim

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Boy!  I think that's a bad idea on so many levels that I don't know where to start.  First word that comes to mind is "liability."   You can pretty much figure that one out for yourselves.
Second word is "reputation."  USFA has, in the span of a little over 12 years, gone from being just another importer of Uberti guns to the U.S. manufacturers of some of the finest single actions ever seen.  Your guns are now accepted as being the equal to, and quite often better than, Colt.  Is USFA going to allow their name to be placed on a gun that someone polishes on a grinding wheel and then puts on a spray paint finish?  Don't laugh.  Some knucklehead will do it.  I can hear him now, "Geez, this Krylon flat black paint looks just like the Rodeo finish.  How do you like my new USFA gun?"  
Martin Guitar Company used to (and may still) sell guitar "Kits."  Same wood, tuners, inlay, etc., that they use at the factory.  All pre-cut and ready to assemble and finish.  You got everything you needed except the Martin name.  They won't allow their name to be used on their kit guitars.  Why?  Protecting their hard earned reputation from some chowderhead with a tube of Elmer's glue and a spray can of varnish.
Back in the late '50's, Great Western Arms Co. sold kit guns (just before their demise).  Today you can't give those guns away.  Kit guns seem to have a stigma attached to them.
If I was King of the World, the farthest I would let USFA go down this road would be to sell guns completely finished but "in the white" (not unlike their China Camp models) thus allowing the customer to, hopefully, get it blued or nickel plated themselves (I say "hopefully" because I still have visions in my head of that clown with the spray can).  And even then, I would assigned a recognizable serial number to those guns - how about "W" for white, as in W0001 - so that future buyers would be aware that they are not buying a factory finished gun.
USFA is currently THE manufacturer of single action revolvers.  You don't see Colt selling kit guns so why should USFA?  Don't sully the marque by offering bargain basement guns.
Sorry if I've rained on any one's parade.  I'll sit down now and be quiet.  Please don't throw anything at me.    

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[RRio]

I would have to agree with Capt. John about this.
The old Great Westerns did this and I feel it hurt the values of the factory builts and hurt the overall impression of Great Westerns. Just my 2 cents. (Apologies to Capt. John, did not see his part about the GWs.)

I'd rather they think about a Remington O/U Derringer.

RRio

[Doc Sunrise]

I personally would not be interested.  For kits to even have a chance at working, parts must be exact and interchangeable, and every USFA SAA I own is not immediately interchangeable with each other.  Hand fitting is always neccessary whether or not a person thinks so or not.  Kit guns would be finished at so many varying levels, from ruined to possibly good, that USFA's reputation would greatly suffer.  When USFA's crafstman consistently hand fit and finish guns to the standards of Colt's 1st Generation quality, those small fitting adjustments are done so that each USFA gun is a unique fit to itself, but the USFA finished product is very much consistent with another USFA finished product.  Guns in the white should only be released for special projects or to those Specialists, like Doug Turnbull, who will finish the gun to USFA specs at a minimum, but usually will take the time to slightly enhance the gun so that the finished product is something USFA would be proud of saying is USFA.  Enhancements & embelishments by professionals will increase values of USFA guns, not hurt them.  Kit guns would lower the average values for USFA guns.  Shooters and collectors like myself, especially now that I own 10 USFA guns, will not be real pleased to see USFA's average base values begin to go down after so much time and effort has been spent on establishing solid values with solid guns that show great promise with the potential in appreciating in value, not depreciating.  

If someone wishes to have a "cheaper" gun, there is a long list of importers selling Italian made SAA's, which USFA used to be a part of.  For my endeavors in buying American Quality, I'll go back to collecting Colt 1st & 2nd Generations and shooting Freedom Arms & Rugers.  Also, do not forget, people like us USFA fans have been willing to wait long periods to receive our little USFA treasures because they are WORTH it, and I know I would be personally ticked off thinking about those long waits for guns that are now losing value so they now could be had faster.  

In summary, I hope to God that USFA remains vigilant in producing fine American made guns with old American "Quality" and refrains from just pumping out units sold.  While we impatiently wait for our little USFA treasures to arrive our USFA discussions of how they are worth it will contimue.  I just wanted a simple USFA T-shirt to brag that I am a USFA owner and that I was willing to defend my position and wait long periods for a gun that nobody can match!  

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

No need to apologize, Rawhide.  As a matter of fact, you managed to sum up my main concern in eight simple words;

"...it hurt the values of the factory builts."

[Doc Sunrise]

I am sorry, I was airing my concerns! = 8

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Keep "airing," Doc!  And I like your idea even better than my own;

" Guns in the white should only be released for special projects or to those Specialists, like Doug Turnbull, who will finish the gun to USFA specs at a minimum, but usually will take the time to slightly enhance the gun so that the finished product is something USFA would be proud of saying is USFA."

I have to admit that it was with a bit of  reluctance that I  even mentioned the "in the white" idea at all.

A note to anyone that may be for this idea:  Please feel free to join in here and express your opinions.  We are a friendly lot here at USFA CSS and none of our members are going to "flame" you here on this board.  Just because some of us are down on this idea doesn't mean that we don't welcome your opinions as well.

[SAAJim]

I'm old enough I vaguely remember kit guns from late 50's and 60's. Dixie gun works offered them too as I remember; mostly muzzleloaders. I never had one and really dont' remember what was involved in going from kit to shooting but as I read what you guys have written I doubt that I would be interested in a kit either. My experience with guns refects my experience with cars. I'm a mechanic not an auto body guy and my working with guns is limited to working on the innards - not top end gunsmith work but smoothing actions, replacing/fitting some parts. I really don't have the tools or skills to deal with properly polishing/finishing a SAA. More details from Banjoman about exactly what's involved would be helpful.

I do love my USFA guns - I have two China Camps and a Rodeo and they are sweet.

Jim

[Beans]

Nope. IMHO it won't sell more guns and will hurt the value of the factory built guns,

What I mean by won't sell more guns, it may in the short run, but then the long run shows up and ? 

Bubba:  "Wanta buy a USFA Kit gun, I sell it to you cheap"

"Why sure its as good the factory made ones."

Warranty?  WEEEELLLL  I lost the warranty papers but the factory don't care.

"No its done that way to make it look like the real guns the cowboys used."

"The sight is pointed that direction, so when you shoot the gun and are holding it sideways the front sight is on top!"

"The finish, you can redo the finish if it starts to peel, used rusolem so it can't rust on you.  What! nope this is as good as stainless steel."


CAS  2015!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Starship cowboy and Galaxey far far away rider talking at the World CAS match

You remember a gun company 7-8 years ago call USFA?

"USFA weren''t they the gun company that used to make one of the finest single action produced?

Yup,  If you can find one made before the kit guns came out you will have a good one.  but be careful some people are taking the kit guns and faking  them to look like the good ones from the factory.

No it not worth taking the chance. I understand someone producing a clone, you know something like they did with the High standard target guns.  Looks the same and some of the parts fit. But it not as good!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

No I'll pass, Well your up next!

Sure hope that above is a fantasy and not a future event.

[Banjoman]

OK.  Your opinions are noted and appreciated.  As I mentined, it was something  that came up in a meeting.   

[Kinda Sudden]

Lots of good points made here. The idea is doable (I know thats not a word) they have done this with AR-15's and got around the problem of fake or assembled rifles being passed off for original box rifles by having special laser marks to ID them. On these sixguns a special roll mark could be used. I think it is a bad idea for two reasons. First it would take away from your top end line by having the poorly finished bad work (and you know this will happen) showing up with your name on it or being associated with you. Second it will be a nightmare for your company with the less then mechanical types and the problems and questions they will have.

                                       P.S.
                                       Yes! yes! please a derringer!!!!!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I agree that the kit could hurt the value of the factory guns. Consistency and quality will be out of your control. The only way I could imagine it not hurting anything is if you release them under a completely different name that has no connection to USFA. After all, the reason USFA is successful is the reputation for quality and finish. You really don't want USFA on anything that is lesser quality than your factory guns. Either way, I wouldn't be interested in a kit. I agree with Rawhide Rio, start thinking about a Remington Derringer. I will be picking up a couple (at least) of the NMA and 1875 Remingtons when they are in production. That decision is already made with confidence that they will be as good as they can be based on the USFA reputation. Don't do anything that may compromise your reputation in any way.

[Buffalow Red]

dixie still sells brass framed remy kits
i would be interested in a steel framed 58 remy kit

[Deadeye Don]

In my opinion as a consumer of USFA guns, I think the best thing they could would be to offer factory completed weapons in the highest quality they can for the lowest price they can and still stay in buisiness.  The recent price increase and now decrease in stock guns should be very good for business.  I think USFA will always need to price their SAAs, Rodeos, etc.  lower than one can buy a so called 4th generation colt today to keep a fair share of the market.  I think it is great Banjoman askes our opinions on these questions that come up at internal meetings.  It continues to show how much USFA cares about us, the consumer.

Regards.  Deadeye.

[Major 2]

Nope. IMHO it won't sell more guns and will hurt the value of the factory built guns,

What I mean by won't sell more guns, it may in the short run, but then the long run shows up and ?  

Bubba:  "Wanta buy a USFA Kit gun, I sell it to you cheap"

"Why sure its as good the factory made ones."

Warranty?  WEEEELLLL  I lost the warranty papers but the factory don't care.

"No its done that way to make it look like the real guns the cowboys used."

"The sight is pointed that direction, so when you shoot the gun and are holding it sideways the front sight is on top!"

"The finish, you can redo the finish if it starts to peel, used rusolem so it can't rust on you.  What! nope this is as good as stainless steel."


CAS  2015!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Starship cowboy and Galaxey far far away rider talking at the World CAS match

You remember a gun company 7-8 years ago call USFA?

"USFA weren''t they the gun company that used to make one of the finest single action produced?

Yup,  If you can find one made before the kit guns came out you will have a good one.  but be careful some people are taking the kit guns and faking  them to look like the good ones from the factory.

No it not worth taking the chance. I understand someone producing a clone, you know something like they did with the High standard target guns.  Looks the same and some of the parts fit. But it not as good!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

No I'll pass, Well your up next!

Sure hope that above is a fantasy and not a future event.

WOW ! nine years ago,  this fellow "Beans  waxed poetic....  was a visionary of things to come,  

"CAS  2015!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Starship cowboy and Galaxey far far away rider talking at the World CAS match

You remember a gun company 7-8 years ago call USFA?

"USFA weren''t they the gun company that used to make one of the finest single action produced?.........

..... "Sure hope that above is a fantasy and not a future event."        no kit , but he foretold the future  

sorta gives new meaning to ...." doesn't know Beans "