Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => The Dark Arts => Topic started by: Cuts Crooked on June 01, 2006, 11:55:07 AM
-
First thing first, componants....I've loaded plastic and paper hulls but never brass with black powder. The principle remains the same no matter what type of hull one uses. You have to have a primed hull, powder, a way to seal the powder off from the rest of the componants, some kind of cushion to protect the shot, and some way to retain all these things inside the hull. The method I use most is the old card & cushion wad system. With this type of loading one measures powder into a primed empty hull, followed by a heavy card wad that is usually called an over powder wad, then a 1/2" cushion wad is added followed by shot, and the whole thing is crimped in a normal manner with a star crimp.
The other most common method is to use modern componants instead of the card and cushion wads. Most folks find the Winchester red wads are pretty good for loading over black powder. Pretty much the same scenerio, load a primed hull with black powder, seat a plastic wad, add shot, and crimp. The plastic wad acts both as a gas seal and a cushion. These will work fine in most guns! However they will leave copious amonts of melted plastic in your bore. No big deal though, at clean up time simply squirt windex down the tubes, let it set for a few minutes, and then push a heavy paper towel or wad of news print down the bore. The plastic will come out in a stringy mess, but it will come out!
Other aspects: I have found that older scatterguns, say pre 1960s, tend to work quite well with the tradtional card & cushion wads system. They have very short forcing cones, which is what these type of wads were designed for originally. Later guns tend to have longer forcing cones and sometimes are even back bored. This type of gun is intended for modern shot shells using plastic wads and they don't usually pattern very good when loaded with the old card & cushion wads. This seems to be because the longer forcing cones allow powder gasses to get into the shot column as it passes through the long forcing cone. Combine that with the lack of chokes in most "coach guns" and you have disasterous patterns. I have found that a combination of technology is the best solution in these guns, using a heavy over powder card wad in combination with a plastic shot cup with the cushion cut off! This keeps the gasses from disrupting the shot charge and also cuts down on the plastic fouling building up in the bore!
Roll crimping: I don't do roll crimps, but they are a very authentic method of loading paper hulls, and can even be done to plastic hulls. This utilizes a thin card wad on top of the shot and the sides of the shell are "rolled" down to secure it. Orginal roll crimping tools are often seen for sale at gun shows and on e-bay. If you are into that sort of thing go for it! They are cool looking when folks can see ya popping them into the chambers, and they work just as well as any star crimp!
Brass hulls: As previously noted I have never messed with brass hulls. The Cool Factor with them is MAJOR! But the expense has always put me off my stride when it comes to investing in them. I HATE the idea of stepping on one and ruining it during a stage! Nevertheless lots of pards use them, for the cool factor if nothing else. Loading them is not much differnt than loading any other hull, powder, then wads, then shot, topped off with a thin overshot wad glued in the top of the hull. Some pards use authentic watergless to seal the overshot wad, but hot glue seems just about as prevelant as anything, with plain old Elmers white glue near the top of ythe list too.
Loads: The ancient rule of thumb is to load with the same volume of shot as powder. Ergo a measure that throws a given amount of shot such as 1 1/8 oz is the same volume that you want to use to throw your powder charges with. This is not a hard fast rule but is always a good starting point. I've noticed that if I want to make changes it is best to go in the direction of more shot than powder, in order to maintain a good pattern. When I have tried it the other way, more powder than shot, I always end up with really crappy patterns. I can't explain it, but that's the way it works.
Finally: You are going to have to experiment with your loads and gun to find what works best for you. I started loading black powder in an ancient Crescent 12 bore and got fabulous patterns with the old card & cushion wads. This gun was designed for them and its chokes throw thier very best patterns with them. Your gun is different than mine and what works in mine may or may not work for you, particularly in an unchoked gun. But the above information should get you started in the right direction to find happiness with black powder and scattergunz! ;)
Pards, please feel free to add information that you have discovered! This is a topic that needs all the input we can get!
-
Just a word on plastic.
I mixed Claybuster wads with Pyrodex. They didn’t like one another in my Stoeger. After five stages, my 12 turned into a 20.
Between me ‘n another BP shooter, we tried different solvents without a bit of luck at the end of the day. Finally got the crap out with Ed’s Red with a heavy acetone content and a bronze brush. The barrels ain’t been the same since.
Usin’ Goex now but I don’t mix it with plastic unless I stick a card wad twix the powder ‘n the plastic. Just ain’t no sense in havin’ ta scrape plastic out yer barrels. Wads suitable for BP are just too easy ta come by. Grits makes a good filler ta get the column height proper for a solid fold crimp.
-
I use Goex FFg, 1/8" card wad, 1/2" fiber wad, shot, overshot card. Sometimes I roll crimp. Sometimes I star crimp. And, sometimes I glue an overshot card in. I found that when ya don't crimp, ya can get more powder and shot in the shell. For instance, my current load for 12ga Magtech brass shells hold 1 3/8oz of shot and FFg Goex. ;D
For brass shells, some people say ya need ta use one gauge bigger wads ta make a good gas seal. For instance, with 12 ga shells you would use 11 ga wads. I would agree with that if you are using the shells for hunting, but at CAS ranges I have not had a problem moving/knocking down any shotgun targets with the same gauge wads.
-
Problem I've seen with that is the overshot wad comin' undone.
Wanna make it plain I ain't loaded them brass thingys. I do shoot regular with someone who does (Slim, I still hate ya didn't meet him). Watched while he worked 'em up in the Mag Tech stuff. He couldn't keep the 12 ga. overshot wads glued in. He'd load two, drop the hammer on the right barrel 'n the shot would pour out the left barrel.
Went to 11 ga. o/s/w stuff, made sure the mouth of the shell was clean ah lube before 'e glued 'em in, problem solved.
-
Problem I've seen with that is the overshot wad comin' undone.
Wanna make it plain I ain't loaded them brass thingys. I do shoot regular with someone who does (Slim, I still hate ya didn't meet him). Watched while he worked 'em up in the Mag Tech stuff. He couldn't keep the 12 ga. overshot wads glued in. He'd load two, drop the hammer on the right barrel 'n the shot would pour out the left barrel.
Went to 11 ga. o/s/w stuff, made sure the mouth of the shell was clean ah lube before 'e glued 'em in, problem solved.
Arcey, I have had 11 gauge wad cards do the same thing.......Till I know better I am blaming heat(from the barrel) travel and the glue. I have cut some new cards that are a bit bigger and am going to try them next load session
-
I am the fella who shot many blanks with the brass shot shells Arcey was talking about. What I have found works with the Magtech shells is #11 over powder (1/8") and pre-lubed cushions (1/2") and then a #10 over shot wad glued in with Elmers white.
After cleaning and putting in the primer, I pour 75 gns of FF (Goex) manually and put in the overshot wad. I then manually compress the load with a 7/8" dowel. Then the pre-lubed cushion goes in. Because of the oversize of the cushion it leaves bits and pieces so that gets wiped off with a dry cleaning patch. Next I use 70% rubbing alcohol on a cleanning patch and wipe down the inside of each shell twice. The second time the patch looks pretty clean. Then I scoop 1 1/8 oz of #8 shot. I cap it off with the #10 over shot wad and compress with the dowel again. Then comes the Elmers white glue. I run a bead around the edges of the wad and then put a gob on top to completely cover the wad.
With new shells I found I needed to rough them up with the brass brush to have something for the glue to grab onto.
I have not had a bad shot since I started this ritual. Some of what I do may be a bit of overkill, but I put out some good smoke and fire and I have not found a knockdown I can not take down 10 -15 yards. I have not tried to check the pattern on paper but it works at match and looks and sounds great.
As for the concern with getting shells that get stepped on I have had a couple but I have always been able to reshape by hand enough to get them into the SxS and then they get resized nicely after firing.
-
I load both Metalic, Steel and Brass, as well as Plastic Hulls, and some Paper Hulls.
1. Metalic: I bought a case of Russian 12 Gage copper plated shot shells about 10 years ago. After experimenting with them over the past few years I ended up pulling out their guts and reloading them with Black Powder, Pyrodex, and 777. Most of the hulls were restuffed with their original felt fibre cushion wads and a charge of 1 1/8 oz of #7 shot. The shot was kept in place by the original plastic plug that held the old shot charge in place.
Once the berdan primer was popped, I drilled out the primer pocket with a 15/64th drill bit and seated a Winchester # 209 primer. Next came a 4.0cc or two 2.5 cc dippers of FFg, Pyrodex RS or FFg 777. They were followed by Circle Fly Wads and a shot charge as above topped with an 11 Gage over shot card glued in place with Elmer's Glue. I have also squirted a bead of Blue and Gray revolver grease or Bore Butter over the cushion wad prior to dropping the shot charge on top of it. This keeps the crud down in the barrel.
The brass hulls are loaded the same way, except that a Large Rifle Primer is used. The primer Pocket was deepened with a special primer pocket cleaner/reamer and the flash hole opened to 3/32nd inch.
The Plastic Hulls are picked special. I like to use high brass hulls that had been used for slug rounds. I prefer the LightField Hybrd Hull, but Winchester and Remington will work as well. In lieu of those I have also used Breneke hulls with the translucient hulls. Kind of neat to see all your components through the walls of the hull. I have to use a MEC collet style sizer to squeeze the brass head down to fit into the chambers of my double barrels. The standard sizing die on the MEC 600 Jr doesn't allow the brass head to clear the die on the up stroke. The primer decaping pin doesn't push the hull clear when using the high brass hulls.
Although these are my prefered hulls, I have also used Remington Gun Club and Active Hulls with good results. On all the Plastic Hulled loads, I find that 4.0cc's of Powder, BP, Pyrodex RS or 777 will work equally well. Again, Circle Fly 12 Gage components are used and a MEC 600 Jr is used to drop the shot charge and crimp the hulls with a six point fold with all Slug Hulls. Any hull that originally crimped with an eight point fold requires me to switch crimp starters. No big deal.
I recently came into a windfall of old Alcan Wads that seem to work well with my old Federal Paper Hulls. They are loaded as described above with the plastic hulls. I am looking forward to trying these out ASAP.
-
One thing to add about roll crimps. If you are using paper hulls, the older hand-cranked crimpers work fine but give mixed results with plastic hulls. If you want to use plastic hulls, my experience is that the roll crimpers powered by a drill worked better for me.
Doctor Bill
-
I just returned from the NCOWS Nationals in Kentucky. The match had a lot of shotgun knockdown
targets. The first day I was using AA hulls with 65 grs. of Pyrodex RS and an ounce of 9 shot. I had no problem knocking down the targets. The second day I was running low on the double As so I switched to the brass hulls which were loaded with the same load. In both cases I was using felt cushion wad, paper over shot and no plastic cup. I had trouble knocking down the targets with the brass hull loads. Now I admit I have never patterned this load and will soon. But the shot was hitting the targets fairly hard but the targets just wouldn't go down. needless to say since these were must knock down targets I lost a lot of time and I was extremely embarrassed.
Any ideas what the problem might be? ???
Will Ketchum
-
Did you have shot cups in the AAs, Will?
-
What kind of chokes do you have on your scattergun? I've experienced a problem with knockdowns using the metalic Shotshells when I wasn't using shot cups. I had been cutting off the cups of 12 gauge claybuster wads but that was a chore I didn't want to start doing on a regular basis. When I wasn't using shotcups I had to increase my shot charge by an eighth of an ounce to knock over the targets.
I've been experimenting using aluminum foil as a shot cup in the metalic shotshells. Just wrap a double thick cylinder around a mandrell and glue the edge to the cylinder and fold over one end like you would a roll of dimes and push it up against the cushion wad and fill with your shot load. Any excess just fold over the top of the shot column and seat an 11 gage overshot card wad over that and glue in place. Works well for me.
-
Here's the difference:
Pyrodex is actually a smokeless powder, designed to work somewhat similar to black powder. As a smokeless powder, it wants to have a certain amount of pressure to burn efficently.
In an AA hull, with a crimp, it had that pressure.
In the brass hull, the wads are looser, and you just have the overshot wad holding things in. The Pyrodex couldn't produce enough pressure to burn as well as it should have.
If you chronographed the two different shells, I think you would find a large difference in velocity.
The cure, and I know you don't want to hear this, is to use real black powder.
In the CBC 12 guage brass shells, I use 90 grains of FFg, a cushion wad dipped, but not soaked in lube, 1 oz of shot, and a 10 guage overshot card, pounded in with a dowel nearly the size of the inside of the brass shell.
They make a lovely boom, a fine cloud of smoke, knock down anything I have encountered, and get out there fast enough to break clay pigeons.
Grizzle Bear
-
FWIW I found that my old double (cylinder bore choke) patterned very poorly with a square load of BP and shot without a shot cup using Magtech hulls. Big wide patterns with huge holes. If you don't want to use a shot cup there are a couple of ways to tighten the pattern. 1) Use a larger shot size or 2) use 1/3 more shot than powder. Either will tighten the pattern somewhat but doing both tightens the pattern the most. If you want or need a really tight pattern a shot cup is probably needed.
I now only use the Magtechs in my 1887 Winchester and use AAs in my SxS. I found that the SxS chambers experienced extensive fouling that made extraction difficult after 4 to 6 rounds with the brass hulls. I aslo load with a shot cup over the fiber wads and use a Universal shot cup that a pard gave me. They are a 2 part wad column so I just discard the base. Soon I will have to find a source for these wads.
-
Thanks for the replies. Arcey, didn't use a cup in either. Heck I don't even know how to use one ???
Rob, I am using Pyrodex because I was given 4 pounds. Thought I might as well use it up in the shotguns. They have a very satisfying BOOM and I did compress the powder before I put the over powder wad in.
Grapeshot, I am using a TTN shotgun. I believe they have cylinder bore or IC chokes. Thing is I have never failed to knock down the targets at my home range even with the brass hulls.
Will Ketchum
-
Oh I agree with you Griz. The wads need to be TIGHT, and at least 100 pounds of pressure to seat the wads on top of the powder so it will compress the powder somewhat. Then, everything else being equal, you'll get a big bang with plenty of punch.
-
I'm going to chime in here also, what Griz says sounds like most likely the problem, but "Will pattern that durn thing, not pattering a shotgun is like trying to shoot a rifle that ain't sighted in, a mistake made by almost all bird hunters and even trap shooters."
-
I have had some decent luck with using powder, a nitro over powder card then AA wads in Magtechs. I think the over powder card heips give a better seal than the AA wad alone.
-
I have had some decent luck with using powder, a nitro over powder card then AA wads in Magtechs. I think the over powder card heips give a better seal than the AA wad alone.
So what size AA wad to you use?
Will Ketchum
-
What I usually do is to shoot at a gallon mile jug at about 15 to 20 yards. If it hits it good and solid I figure it's good to go. Guess I'll have to rethink that. :(
I am going to our cabin this weekend and I'll pattern it then. Any suggestions as to the distance? Certainly not the standard 40 yards ???
Will Ketchum
-
I always pattern a shotgun at the distance it will be used. My little 28 gauge skeet gun has been patterned at from 10 to 40 yards, the distance it will be used in the field. By doing that I know with my 7/8's oz of very hard #7's it will kill pheasant out to close to forty yards, but the pattern is to thin for quail at much more than 30. And maybe 20 on doves. By going to #8's I can extend the range it's used on quail and dove, but the penatration is less than desired on pheasants at any distance. I use this as an example because I've done so much work with this gun in the almost 30 years I've used it.
What I strive for is a pattern that is even as much as possible from the center to the edge. A tight center does you little good if you are off a bit and catch the target with a ragged edge.
I mention this because you may not like what I sugest you also do. Put it on the bags and see if it really shoots where it looks, this is not an uncommon problem with double guns or sometimes even single barrel guns. This should be done esp if you have screw in chokes, they are often not threaded straight. One should also do this with each choke tube.
I used to work part time at a friends gunshop that specialized in shotguns. Both guys who ran it took me under their wing and taught me a lot about shotguns and chocks, loads and such when I started reloding in 1979. There are lots of little tricks one can do to change the pattern, they will work with both nitro and black loads. If you don't like what you find patterning it, let me know what is wrong and I'll pass on what I know to improve it.
Since I learned to make my loads work for me, I've seldom felt under gunned with that little gun, that skeet barrel is right there in between cylinder and improved cylinder in choke. I only use the modified barrel on doves and pass shooting.
-
Mr. Ketchum,
I figure your load must have blown a hole down the centerof your pattern....those KDs where some of the easiest to put-down (& reset) as I've encountered.
I suggest increasing the shot to 1 1/8 oz, using the same amount of powder. This will increase the resistance upon ignition (better pressure / velocity) fill-out your pattern & put more goodness downrange. To pattern, how about some cardboard cut to approximate the size of typical KD targets and place at 15-25 yds.
I don't believe you "missed" the target by not aiming correctly, but I'll share for the benefit of pards reading along & might need some additional tips:
You also may want to find the POI of your shotgun vs. your aim. Do this with a larger piece of cardboard or sheet of paper. Make a center mark on the target stand 10 yds back & fire standard commercial birdshot loads. The wad will hit the target & make a hole (repeat for the other barrel....this is the POI for each barrel. Try this several times to see if it is the repeatable & on-target. This is similar to finding out whether your rifle/pistol are "zeroed"...Consistently shouldering the shotgun, head placement, etc are key to shotgun shooting as your dominant eye is the rear sight.
I know your not a big fan of the shotgun, bit shooting it will help your score.
Slim
-
Here's a trick I learned from hard hitting duck and phesant loads. I took apart some of the shells just to see why they patterned so tight. What I found is that the shot was buffered. So, I tried some of that same buffer, Ballistic Products has it, and my patterns really got religeon.
Since I roll crimp all my bp shotshell ammo I can write on the over shot card. I simply put a "B" on the buffered ones. From my lil 20ga, they're a death ray out to 40 yards. Last weekend at Hang um High I consistantly took down knockdowns that many others had trouble with. I was shootn' a lil 20ga and others were shootn' 12 ga.
DD-DLoS
-
Buffering is a wonderful thing, it dates to at least the middle 19th century, of course they used ground bone meal instead of that plastic sawdust we use today. One caution, it does raise pressures a bit so use caution when working with this and Nitro loads, never bed a load that is close to maxiumum pressure.
Another item I picked up that helps patterens is to take a bit of 220 grit wet and dry sand paper and right at the end of the muzzle put this in and turn it enough to put a few spirals at the end of the muzzle, but not enough to remove any metat. The wads will hit this and slow down a fraction, this keeps the wad from hitting the back of the shot string. The shot flies truer because of this.
Shot with higher antiomony will also help, the best shot one can buy is the high antimony shot that is nickel plated, this comes from Italy and can be bought through Ballistic Products. It is a bit expensive for CAS?WAS but is worth every penny in the hunting fields.
One other note, the high antimony shot will also have more of a chance to bounce off of steel targets.
-
Almost forgot, Will are you using the same wad in the brass shells as the plastic ones? If so the larger id brass shell might not be sealing as well as gas may be leaking past the was and disrupting the shot column a bit.
-
Sunwapta Haze ........
Use a larger shot size or 2) use 1/3 more shot than powder. Either will tighten the pattern somewhat but doing both tightens the pattern the most
I could not agree more my little ol 16g (Sarah to her friends ;)), wuz givin my terrible patterns till I added more shot and that cured my little prob!!
Paladin (What lurvs his scatterguns ;D) UK
-
Almost forgot, Will are you using the same wad in the brass shells as the plastic ones? If so the larger id brass shell might not be sealing as well as gas may be leaking past the was and disrupting the shot column a bit.
No I'm not. I use 12 gauge Alcan wads in my plastic hulls but 11 gauge over powder and cushion wads and 10 gauge over shot cards in the brass. I am going to try more shot.
Will Ketchum
-
Ho the fire,
It's the number of pellets on the steel that pushes it over. No matter what, ya gots to put a lot of pellets on the steel to make it die. I jest shot "Hang um High" and there were a couple of tough poppers. My lil 20ga laid 'em down pronto. Many big testostrone twelves couldn't get the job done. So, I'm tellin' ya, it's the total mass of lead on the target that makes it tip over.
DD-DLoS
-
I agree with DD. I never understood the facination in CAS for sawed-off's. Better to keep it full length, and use it often, like hunting or on clay bird ranges. Actually, the one club match I won top overall, was the one I used a 1953 vintage mod 97 with 30" full choke.
-
I pulled the over shot cards and added as many 7 1/2s as I could fit in and still seat the card. Most of them took a full Lee 1.3cc dipper.
Last weekend I usd them and I knocked every knock down shotgun target offered. I even got 4 out of 5 on the shotgun poppers ;D (which I normally miss) I must admit one was a "volunteer" in that it broke off the tosser. ;)
Thanks for your help. Next time I'll use more shot from the start.
Will Ketchum
-
Will, I may have missed it some where. Are you lubing the fiber wads? If so you may want to place a card over the wad before loading shot. However a shot cup would do the same thing. I found on a couple of occassions the wad was blowing thru the shot. I would agree with the others extra shot. One other thing I found on Knock downs, I aim for the center downwards towards the base on the target. This seems to get them for me.
-
Hi there. I'm new to The Dark Side and completely green when it comes to blackpowder loading. I saw a blackpowder shooting exhibition and would like to know more. I have a Winchester Model 1901 10 gauge that I would like to load brass shells for and I'm looking for any advice you can give me. I do know how to reload regular smokeless pistol and rifle shells, but I have never loaded shotgun shells. I don't know anything about blackpowder loading so any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. For instance, is there anything I should stay away from? Thanks so much.
-
Hi there. I'm new to The Dark Side and completely green when it comes to blackpowder loading. I saw a blackpowder shooting exhibition and would like to know more. I have a Winchester Model 1901 10 gauge that I would like to load brass shells for and I'm looking for any advice you can give me. I do know how to reload regular smokeless pistol and rifle shells, but I have never loaded shotgun shells. I don't know anything about blackpowder loading so any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. For instance, is there anything I should stay away from? Thanks so much.
Howdy Friend,
Well the collective wisdom of CAS City concerning scattergun shells is right here in this thread. Read it through carefully and you SHOULD be able to muddle your way around reloading them. One thing that comes to mind to avoid is that one normally doesn't
resize brass hulls.
Anyone else got some avoidance reccomendations for our new pard?
-
S'pearimint with some of them new fangled plastic hulls for that .87 win also... The brass hulls are nice and doesn't take alot of $$$$ to get started loading and can be used over and over again. Not to mention they look really good ejecting from a soot burner.
-
Hi there. I'm new to The Dark Side and completely green when it comes to blackpowder loading. I saw a blackpowder shooting exhibition and would like to know more. I have a Winchester Model 1901 10 gauge that I would like to load brass shells for and I'm looking for any advice you can give me. I do know how to reload regular smokeless pistol and rifle shells, but I have never loaded shotgun shells. I don't know anything about blackpowder loading so any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. For instance, is there anything I should stay away from? Thanks so much.
The only advice that I can give, outside all the other suggestions in this thread, is when you load those brass 10 gauge hulls, use 9 gage nitro wads over the powder, 9 gauge fibre wads, and an 8 gauge over shot wad glude in place with Elmers or whatever glue/sealant of your choice.
The oversize wads will keep the gas from escaping and give enough resistance to give a good complete burn of the powder.
-
I am working up a BP/Pyrodex load (I know, but I have three pounds of Pyrodex RS I got for 7 bucks each left to use up) for my 12 gauge.
I will be loading on a MEC Sizemaster, though I will likely be loading the powder using my Lyman 55 BP measure. (Don't plan to run the Goex through the MEC, just the Pyro)
A call to Hodgdon netted me this suggestion:
1 1/8oz shot
claybusters red wad
50-65gr Pyrodex RS
I am not nuts about the idea of running plastic wads in my shotguns. (Even less so after reading through this thread.) My plan was to go with Circle Fly cards and wads instead.
I am loading into Winchester AA plastic hulls over Winchester primers.
Here's my questions:
I was looking at dropping to 1oz of shot. Stuff is pricey and I want to make it stretch if I can. Will that hurt me at around 60gr of 2f? (I know patterning will help answer that question, just wanted to get an idea before I start stuffing that spherical gold into hulls.)
Will the length attained with 60gr 2f assorted cards and wads (standard 12 gauge circle fly stuff) and 1oz of shot fill the shell (2 3/4 AA) enough to give me a good crimp?
If not, what is the easiest and most reliable way to take up the extra space?
Also, I have heard of folks spiking their shot charges with glitter and the like to give a little more "show" to their shots. Is there any reason to avoid doing this? Anything I should be concerned about as far as this altering the load or "show fillers" to avoid?
Thanks for the help in advance gang!
Jack Lee
-
Cuts Crooked
What's your load for a Vintage Turkey load . Have you had the opportunity to get your double ready for season ???
-
Here's my questions:
I was looking at dropping to 1oz of shot. Stuff is pricey and I want to make it stretch if I can. Will that hurt me at around 60gr of 2f? (I know patterning will help answer that question, just wanted to get an idea before I start stuffing that spherical gold into hull.
Jack Lee
Howdy Jackson Lee, load up a couple each of a few different loads and put em on a big piece of cardboard. 60gr may blow a hole, but you'll never know till you try. You can save some money and shoot tighter patterns by using plastic wads, clean up has never been a problem for me. I've been told it's worse in some older guns and if you exceed 60gr. My 1 1/8oz load is 57gr of 2f Schuetzen, I also have a 7/8oz load using 47gr. For 1oz I'd start around 53gr with a Win pink wad. As for the glitter, I've seen it and thongs with no problem ;D, but stay away from colored chaulks, they really choke you and others :(.
Jefro
-
Rowdy,
My SxS is an old Crecsent choked Mod x Mod. With those open chokes it's difficult to get a good tight pattern with my normal "square load". So I load 65 gr of Pyrodex RS, by volume, under an overpowder wad, NO CUSHION WAD, then I make a shot cup from heavy paper stock and fill the whole thing up with a little over 1 1/8 oz of #6 magnum shot, put an overhot wad on top and crimp. With this load I feel confident to 25 yards max, and prefer even closer if I can get the turkeys in there.
Note that I'm using pyro instead of BP in this load. That's because it crushes better than BP and I can get more in there and mash it down some for a bit more velocity.
Restricting my shots with this combo to 20 - 25 yards can be frustrating at times, I often get birds in to almost 30 and have them hang right there, but I don't feel like I can stretch it any further than that. If the season is getting short I get out my 97 Norchester and go with factory turkey loads :-X
-
Cuts
Thanks for the info . I have been loading Federal gold Medal paper hulls and they are doing a great job and the paper hulls have a beautiful crimp . The shotgun I hunt with is a TTN with a 20 inch barrel . I had it choked so could use it on Turkey. I hung a couple clay birds on a target stand and was able to break at 50 yards .
-
Well, a 'RULE OF THUMB" for muzzle loaders is equal amounts by volume of powder to shot. It does give one a nice quick load. It patterns well in my 10 and 16ga guns. I have also used that as a starting point for my cartrage guns with similar result. I don't use shot cups, I don't like that spider webby snot that is left in the bore as I am using BP or APP.
"Lubing" is just a bit of "Motor Mica" from Ballistic Products shake & bake style and a little trick I learnd by accident was the use of a "Tyvek" patch on the cusion wad. It keeps the pellets from imbedding in the shot cups on heavy steel goose loads,and they do a fine job in BP loads as well ;D
Most older guns were designed for the fiber wads, and pattern better with those. Oh for a touch of pizzaz, put a scoop of ceiling glitter in with the shot. :o It's a hoot.
Regards,
Knarley
-
I'm in the process of converting over to the dark arts and in rapid learning mode. I have my pistol and rifle loads down. Using DD big lube bullets with SPG. Absolutly perfect and no issues there.
However, I'm having a "challenge in discovery" with my shot shell. Heres what I have. TTN 12 guage model 1878 coach gun. I'm assuming no choke at all. I have magtech brass. I was given about a 1/2 case of pryodex RS. (Yeah I know, not really the real stuff, but its cheep, as in free) I've loaded a square load, using my Lee shot Dipper set at 1 1/8 oz for pryodex RS ( gauged out about 82 grains on my muzzler loader powder charger) 11 gauge Circle fly over powder wad, followed by a grease with bore butter 11 guage fiber wad from circle fly, 1 1/8 7 1/2 shot, 11 guage over shot card, and a tad of elmers white glue, and polished off by a very slight crimp in an RCBS 12 guage die. I get a lot of smoke, but was disappointed in that I didnt get the bang I was expecting, the recoil is anemic, and I cant seam to knock over the shot gun knock downs.
Heres what I suspect. I'm getting a lot of pressure release around the wads, or the pressure is blowing through the wads and scattering the shot, or both. I havnt had the opportunite to shot pattern it, but I suspect the pattern is something like a big donut. I've read a lot about using AA wads, but dont want to scrub lots of plastic out of the barrel. and read about making my own shot cups. I've had recommendations on using less powder, more powder, heavier shot, etc. So I'm open.....
Any suggestions?
-
I'm in the process of converting over to the dark arts and in rapid learning mode. I have my pistol and rifle loads down. Using DD big lube bullets with SPG. Absolutly perfect and no issues there.
However, I'm having a "challenge in discovery" with my shot shell. Heres what I have. TTN 12 guage model 1878 coach gun. I'm assuming no choke at all. I have magtech brass. I was given about a 1/2 case of pryodex RS. (Yeah I know, not really the real stuff, but its cheep, as in free) I've loaded a square load, using my Lee shot Dipper set at 1 1/8 oz for pryodex RS ( gauged out about 82 grains on my muzzler loader powder charger) 11 gauge Circle fly over powder wad, followed by a grease with bore butter 11 guage fiber wad from circle fly, 1 1/8 7 1/2 shot, 11 guage over shot card, and a tad of elmers white glue, and polished off by a very slight crimp in an RCBS 12 guage die. I get a lot of smoke, but was disappointed in that I didnt get the bang I was expecting, the recoil is anemic, and I cant seam to knock over the shot gun knock downs.
Heres what I suspect. I'm getting a lot of pressure release around the wads, or the pressure is blowing through the wads and scattering the shot, or both. I havnt had the opportunite to shot pattern it, but I suspect the pattern is something like a big donut. I've read a lot about using AA wads, but dont want to scrub lots of plastic out of the barrel. and read about making my own shot cups. I've had recommendations on using less powder, more powder, heavier shot, etc. So I'm open.....
Any suggestions?
Sounds like you need to increase the pressure when seating the wads
-
Try having your powder at about 70 percent of whatever your shot is it will tighten your pattern considerably. If ya want it tighter make yourself paper shot cups. WM
-
Try having your powder at about 70 percent of whatever your shot is it will tighten your pattern considerably. If ya want it tighter make yourself paper shot cups. WM
That is volume, of course. This advice is as old as wingshooting; - and works!
-
Yep on the list to try, less powder/ make shot cups.............
Thanks gents
-
That is volume, of course. This advice is as old as wingshooting; - and works!
And this Gentleman is where I got that information. WM
-
This is from THIS THREAD in 2006!
FWIW I found that my old double (cylinder bore choke) patterned very poorly with a square load of BP and shot without a shot cup using Magtech hulls. Big wide patterns with huge holes. If you don't want to use a shot cup there are a couple of ways to tighten the pattern. 1) Use a larger shot size or 2) use 1/3 more shot than powder. Either will tighten the pattern somewhat but doing both tightens the pattern the most. If you want or need a really tight pattern a shot cup is probably needed.
This is from three centuries ago;
http://www.archive.org/stream/pteryplegiaorart00mark#page/n3/mode/2up
-
I have been shooting brass hulls for a few years now - since about 2004.
I shoot 2 inch brass hulls, 2-1/2 inch brass hulls (both sets Magtechs) and just got my 2-5/8 10 gauge brass hulls from RMC last week
I am loading up 10 gauge for the first time this week and there are some tweaks to the brass hulls depending on whether you are using magtechs or RMC's.
RMC's are turned from solid brass - they are very thick walled. It is recommended with RMC's that you use same gauge components with the shells - ie over shot & over powder crads as well as the fiber wads.
For the Magtech hulls I highly recommend using at least one gauge size bigger for all components to get a good seal. I had my Magtechs converted for 209 primers - i know several folks show shoot them with rifle primers with no issues.
I used to use Elmer's but started to have issues in very cold or hot weather with my seals. Since late 2006 I have used a hot glue gun and I will not look back. The hot glue gun glue dries within about 30 minutes and retains a rubbery consistency when completely dry - I have never had it fail in cold or hot weather.
I do not use plastic cups - in my newer guns with modern barrels I was able to get plastic out very easy with not much fuss - but with my older guns it took more work - so I only use fiber wads.
Since I shoot mostly antique shotguns - they were all designed for fiber wads. I shoot a Stevens Riverside (12), a converted Martini-Henry (12), a remington 1883 (10) and a 1901 Winchester (10) - what can I say I am a sucker for antique steel barreled shotguns!
-
I just read the current Ballistic Products monthly catalog (c115-2012)and they recommend an 11ga maxi nitro card (.125), a 11ga fiber cushion (1/2 inch) and a 10ga overshot card (.030) for the 12ga Magtech brass shell, and use a large pistol primer. They leave the powder and shot up to you. They also list other gauges of brass shells with respective component sizes. They also have a new booket "Reloading Brass Shotshells". Just a heads up-I'm not connected any way with Ballistic Products. I just buy from them like anyone else. Most of this info has already been supplied by various other shooters. Good shooting!
Bob
-
I can't add anything to this thread... but it sure is helpful.
I have a old 12 gauge damascus double barrel, with exposed hammers, that I made into a coach gun...so I want to start loading up some BP paper shot shells over this winter.
I already bought one of those old fashion hand roll crimper tools and the hand tool that will squeeze/seat in the primers.
I still have to cut down about 250 once fired 3-3/4" paper hulls, to fit the gun's shorter chambers...then get to loading them up.
-
just getting in to loading some brass shells with pyrodex rs..i plan to just use a shot dipper and do square loads..does anybody know what the grains of pyro would be on a 7/8oz shot dip? 1oz? 1 1/8oz?
thanks...great site btw!
-
just getting in to loading some brass shells with pyrodex rs..i plan to just use a shot dipper and do square loads..does anybody know what the grains of pyro would be on a 7/8oz shot dip? 1oz? 1 1/8oz?
thanks...great site btw!
I'm loading using 1 1/8oz of #8 shot using Magtech 2.5" brass shells with large pistol primers and the Lee 2.2 cc dipper with two scoops of the powder. I've used the same for Pyrodex RS but now using some GOEX on the last batch.
-
Matt; I take it that you had read this post in its entirety.
When you are building your load work backwards from your desired shotload. 1 oz. is enough shot for CAS targets, and mv is NOT crucial. Getting a good pattern is.
Next is to decide on your powder load. These are the rules of thumb on the international sliding scale;
- measure both shot and powder by volume
- more powder than shot achieves nothing but smoke, flame, and blown patterns
- less powder means tighter patterns in almost all cases, up to about 30% less
If observance of the above tips doesn't get patterns of about 1 foot at CAS distances (about15 yards) try the following;
- try plastic wads, or at least the shot-protector part
- alternatively make heavy paper shot cups coin-wrapper fashion
- make sure the over-powder and over-shot wads fit tightly
You are trying Pyrodex, which is 70% of the weight of blackpowder. USE VOLUME, when comparing to black. Hodgdon used to post data for Pyrodex but I couldn't find it. However observing the above should give you manageable & effective loads.
-
so a 7/8oz scoop of powder and a 1oz scoop of shot would be a good starting point?
-
so a 7/8oz scoop of powder and a 1oz scoop of shot would be a good starting point?
Thats a very good place to start. Even a 3/4 oz scoop. Turn the co-relation around. Fill your 1 oz shot-scoop with your powder and weigh the powder. Now you have the freedom to calculate the amount of powder in grains, then find a LEE (or any other scoop;- even a homemade one) scoop to fit.
Experiment with wad columns and pattern test frequently
-
Thats a very good place to start. Even a 3/4 oz scoop. Turn the co-relation around. Fill your 1 oz shot-scoop with your powder and weigh the powder. now you have the freedom to calculate the amount of powder in grains, then find a LEE (or any other scoop;- even a homemade one) scoop to fit.
Experiment with wad columns and pattern test frequently
ok! thanks for the help!
-
I have suggested that one ounce of shot is enough for CAS and I will stick with that advice especially with the cost of lead. For hunting, more is sometimes called for. 1 1/8 oz and 1 1/4 oz just seem right for the field. The basic rules for building a load are as I set them out above within reason.
Don't make your load into a magnum. You are trying to re-create traditional loads afterall. Another limitation is "The Gunmakers Rule" of limiting the shot load to 1/96th of the guns weight. For example a 1 oz. load fits a six pound gun and 1 1/4 oz. fits a 7 1/2 lb gun. More would be safe in modern guns but exceeding this "rule" affects recoil and portability without adding anything to effectiveness.
Think pattern when building a load as it is lead that knocks 'em down, not powder. When the English gun makers were working with choke boring they experimented with variations in the amount of shot in a given bore. They concluded that the most even shot distribution occurred when the height of the shot column was equal to the diameter of the bore. Even patterns meant that there were the absolute minimum of holes in the pattern for the quarry to fly through. (Excessive powder also meant that patterns became even more uneven.)
This is a SQUARE LOAD. To save us having to sit down and actually measure this, the figure for a true square load in a 12 gauge is 1 1/16 ounce. The result of these calculations was the English "game gun" of 6 1/4 pounds using a 1 1/16 oz shot load. Americans generally used more shot resulting in the typical hunting gun weighing 7 1/2 pounds.
Oh! And one more thing. Cutting down barrels to make a coach gun leads to several problems. If you want a coachgun, buy a factory made gun as the factory has taken some steps to counter its limitations.
-
So, I have been shooting BP shotshells for some years now. I have a box full of brass hulls that look very cool in a cartridge belt for reenactments but I have never loaded them. Thinkin it is about time after reading the informative posts here. One stupid question, does one put a roll crimp on the brass hulls? Seems redundant if one uses hot/Elmers glue but maybe not. Thank you.
-
So, I have been shooting BP shotshells for some years now. I have a box full of brass hulls that look very cool in a cartridge belt for reenactments but I have never loaded them. Thinkin it is about time after reading the informative posts here. One stupid question, does one put a roll crimp on the brass hulls? Seems redundant if one uses hot/Elmers glue but maybe not. Thank you.
You are correct, Sir! There is no need to roll-crimp brass shotshells. A very slight crimp might help insert the shells in tight shell-loops.
-
Question for brass hull users, what are you using for dies? The brass hulls I have are old ones that I bought new 20 years ago and have the shotgun primers. I nearly stuck one in my MEC shotgun press and will not slide into my old SXS as they are. So they need to be sized down. Even if I get the new brass hulls with rifle primers, will they need to be sized down after being fired? Doesnt look like the RCBS dies size them. Is there a die set that will work in my RockChucker? Buffalo Arms lists a set that sounds like they would size but at $191 for the die set, a fellow really needs to be committed to the brass hulls. Or, maybe just committed period!!!
-
I have this one;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEC-SUPER-SIZER-RESIZER-12-GAUGE-SS77-/271151610037?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f21e538b5
It only sizes about an inch, so I turn the shell mouth-end-down and crank the lever again. I still doesn't get the middle.
-
Sir Charles, that is the first time I had heard of the "Gunmaker's Rule" regarding shot weight versus gun weight. Very interesting.
Harley, here is the sizing tool I use:
(http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/SizingTool.JPG)
I got it some years ago from Nate Kiowa Jones. It is a 1/2" thick steel bar, with the holes chamfered. I place the bar over the open jaws of a vice and pound the lubed hull down through the .795" hole with a rubber mallet. Then turn it over, insert a socket driver inside the hull (so the socket goes around the primer pocket and doesn't flatten it) and drive it back out. Rarely does a hull need to also go through the .790 hole.
From your description of your brass hulls (20 years old, 209 primer) it sounds like they might be the ones from Rocky Mtn. Cartridge Co. which are turned down from bar stock and are very heavy duty. These will be difficult to size, but once sized will probably never need it again.
Good luck.
-
Question for brass hull users, what are you using for dies? The brass hulls I have are old ones that I bought new 20 years ago and have the shotgun primers. I nearly stuck one in my MEC shotgun press and will not slide into my old SXS as they are. So they need to be sized down. Even if I get the new brass hulls with rifle primers, will they need to be sized down after being fired? Doesnt look like the RCBS dies size them. Is there a die set that will work in my RockChucker? Buffalo Arms lists a set that sounds like they would size but at $191 for the die set, a fellow really needs to be committed to the brass hulls. Or, maybe just committed period!!!
I'm using a pretty simple setup with RCBS Cowboy die as well as a wad/powder compress piece that I had made to fit through the center of the setup. It works real well for Black Powder loaded Magtech shells. The Press is the Lee Classic Cast (not Breech Lock one as that won't go to 1 1/4" die size).
-
From your description of your brass hulls (20 years old, 209 primer) it sounds like they might be the ones from Rocky Mtn. Cartridge Co. which are turned down from bar stock and are very heavy duty. These will be difficult to size, but once sized will probably never need it again.
Good luck.
Yeah, that was the outfit alright. They are indeed, very thick. I think a person could step on them with no effect. I will have to see if I can find one of those sizing tools you have. That might be the trick deal.
-
Ok, I've done a lot of reading. Time for you guys to check my homework.
I have two 12 ga SxS. One is an old Stevens 5110 with 30" F/M barrels. The other is a new Stoeger Uplander with 28" M/IC.
The old Stevens, although heavier, seems to kick harder than the Stoegar using the same shells. Could be longer forcing cones in the Stoeger?
If I wanted to load black in the Stevens, I should use less powder volume than shot - say 3/4 (volume) to 1 oz shot. Better to use fiber wads. But the same load in Stoeger would benefit from shot cup - either cut off plastic wad cup or homemade.
Mary and I recently handled a Stoeger coach gun. We still like the longer barreled Uplander better.
I've seen advertised reclaimed shot that has been washed, screened and coated with something. Would there be a problem using it if any were found local?
-
The variation in felt recoil could be due to differences in stock shape.
A common load for me is 1 oz of shot over about 60 grains of FFg. This is very close to your 25% less than equal volume load,
Go for shot cups if the pattern won't stay within a one foot circle at CAS ranges of ABOUT 15 yards.
Personally, I don't recommend sawdoffs,(Generally they will shoot high.) but think that if you want a shortgun, buy a factory made piece. When you get it, pattern it properly for effective pattern and that the POI is not too high. If you are going to miss with a scattergun it will usually shoot high as there is a tendency to improperly shoulder the gun when things get fast & furious, as well as not keeping a good cheek/stock weld. Both cause overshooting.
I've not had access to reclaimed shot, but hear good things about it, at at least at our short ranges.
-
I stopped in at the big gunshop yesterday and picked up plastic cup wads claybusters 7/8 oz size, primers Winchester 209, and 25 lbs of 7-1/2 unplated lead shot. They thought they had the over powder cardboard wads (12 gauge). Computer said they did but wasn't there. ( This kind of thing happens often to me all the time.)
I get home and check their online store and they have 11 guage over powder cards. I think I read to use the 11 guage anyway to insure they sealed tight?
I have enough Fg and FFg to make a test run. Should I go back for the 11 gauge over powder card? Go on without a card? Or continue to search for 12 guage over powder card? Or... plan C, D, or E.,?
-
Bibbyman,
Are you loading plastic or paper shot shells, or brass shells?
Brass shells are thinner than the plastic or paper. You should use slightly larger wads in the brass shells.
Using the 209 primers would suggest they are plastic or paper.
Also, if you are loading your shot shells with bp, I would suggest staying away from the plastic shot cup or power piston type wad combination.
My best,
Blair
-
The O/P said brass, Magtechs I think. If so, use 11gauge overpowder cards and overshot cards. 11 gauge is about .777 which is what my 3/4" hollow punch from a cheapo set I got from Tandy gives me. The cushion wads can be your regular 12 gauge as they will squish-up to size.
CIRCLE FLY is your source for all wadding. Until you get set up, you can use "whatever" for wadding. Here are my freebee sources;
Over powder; scrap picture backing from your neighbourhood frame shop. 1/16" thick, so use two.
Cushion wads; 1/8" cork gasket material from your auto supply store.
Felt from DUROFELT
1/4 sheet of kitchen towel wadded up & stuffed in on top of the O/P cards.
If you have problems with loose patterns, cut off the shot protection end of a plastic wad and use that, or heavy paper in a "coin roll" manner. BTW; the coin roll plan is usfull and traditional.
-
Not long after I poked post I realized I had left out I was planning to use Remington STS hulls and some Peters field load hulls that look to be identical except for color and headstamp.
The guy at the gunshop said not to use the Federal field load hulls. Something about tapered walls? Naturally, I have far more of them. But that's not a problem as I have plenty of the STS hulls and each match everyone that does not reload dumps their hulls in a bucket.
-
STS?
Sorry, I am kind of stupid about these pseudonyms.
What does this mean?
Blair
-
STS?
Sorry, I am kind of stupid about these pseudonyms.
What does this mean?
Blair
STS is a brand/model of Remington target loads.
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/target-loads/premier-sts-target-loads.aspx
-
Plastic hulled shot shells?
Is that correct?
Blair
-
Plastic hulled shot shells?
Is that correct?
Blair
Correct.
-
Thanks,
You all have a great Holliday Season
Blair
-
I find that most of the R-P shells seem to accept the same loads. STS, GunClub, Peters blue field hulls and the prizes are the gold NITRO hulls that look awfully like brassers. 8)
And all of them seem to slip out of the breach with a quick jerk where most others seem stickier. 8)
AND they LAST 8) 8)
-
Russian 12 Gauge Steel Shotgun Hulls, How to Modify Them for Use in the Reproduction Winchester 1887 Lever Action Shotguns or the Reproduction Winchester M1897 Pump Shotguns.
By: William C. Oxx
HISTORY:
The Model 1887 was the first truly successful repeating shotgun. Its lever-action design was chosen at the behest of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, best known at the time as manufacturers of lever-action firearms such as the Winchester model 1873. Designer John Browning suggested that a pump-action would be much more appropriate for a repeating shotgun, but Winchester management's position was that, at the time, the company was known as a "lever-action firearm company", and felt that their new shotgun must also be a lever-action for reasons of brand recognition. Browning responded by designing a breech-loading, rolling block lever-action.
Shotgun shells at the time used black powder as a propellant, and so the Model 1887 shotgun was designed and chambered for less powerful black powder shotgun shells. Both 10 and 12-gauge models were offered in the Model 1887. It was soon realized that the action on the M1887 was not strong enough to handle early smokeless powder shotgun shells, and so a redesign resulted in the stronger Winchester Model 1901, 10-gauge only, to handle the advent of the more powerful smokeless powder. No 12-gauge chambering was offered, as Winchester did not want the Model 1901 to compete with their successful 12-gauge Model 1897 pump-action shotgun. Other distinguishing characteristics of the Model 1901 are:
• a two piece lever
• the Winchester trademark stamp was moved to the upper tang, behind the hammer
• serial numbers between 64,856 and 79,455
Although a technically sound gun design, the market for lever-action shotguns waned considerably, as John Browning had predicted, after the introduction of the Winchester 1897 and other contemporary pump-action shotguns. Model 1887 production totaled 64,855 units between 1887 and 1901. Between 1901 and 1920, an additional 14,600 Model 1901 shotguns were manufactured before the Model 1887/1901 product line was discontinued. Serial numbers for the Model 1901 started where the serial numbers of the Model 1887 left off at 64,856 and ran through number 79,455. Thus, only 14,600 Model 1901s were produced indicating the declining demand for the lever action shotgun.
Reproduction:
Over the years, a number of gun companies tried to produce Model 1887/1901 shotguns that could chamber modern, smokeless shotgun shells—largely for the cowboy action shooting discipline—but with little commercial success. Recently however, three firearm companies have successfully produced viable models for the commercial firearms market:
• ADI Limited of Australia, produced a small trial run of modern Model 1887/1901 shotguns, chambered for modern smokeless 12-gauge shot gun shells. This was ostensibly to exploit a loophole in newer tighter gun laws in Australia which prohibited semi-automatic rifles and shotguns and pump action shotguns, amongst others, but still allowed bolt-action and lever-action rifles and shotguns. Commercial production on this firearm by ADI was anticipated for 2007, following several years of delays due to distribution issues, but this has not yet happened.
• Chinese arms manufacturer Norinco currently produces the Model 1887 shotgun chambered for modern smokeless 12-gauge shells, a version of which (featuring a 20" barrel) is manufactured for the American firearms firm Interstate Arms Corporation (IAC) and exported for sale in the United States, Canada, and Australia. As the only legal repeating shotgun (besides Mossberg bolt-action shotguns) for non-Primary Producer firearms owners in Australia, it has proven very popular with hunters and sporting shooters alike. U.S. and Canadian sales, however, have been largely focused on cowboy action shooting participants, owing to the ready availability of affordable pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns in most parts of the U.S. and Canada.
• The Italian firm Chiappa Firearms manufactures modern reproductions of the Winchester Model 1887 series shotguns. The shotguns appeared on the Australian and the European firearms markets in late 2008
Ever a get a line on a deal that was too good to pass up? Yeah, me to, mine was back in the mid 1990’s. I was working at Gunpowder Indoor Range, in Bel Air, MD and was perusing one of our trade flyers from Century Arms and found a deal on a case of Russian Bi-Metal 12 Gauge Shotgun Shells.
My co-worker and I bought a case and split it up. The shells worked great in my Rossi side-by-side, but wouldn’t function in his Mossberg pump. The nomenclature indicated that they were 2.75 inches shells and they did fit in both my Rossi’s three inch chambers and my 2.75 inch chambers of my Baikel SxS. They did have a serious drawback. Sometimes the primers were duds. These I would disassemble and put aside.
I used my metal hulls competing in Cowboy Action Shooting and collected lots of style points but they weren’t reloadable being Berdan primed, so I found the right size drill bit, fifteen-sixty fourths of an inch, and drilled out the old Berdan Primers, counter sunk the hole to insure that the # 209 shotgun primer would fit flush and reloaded several to see how they’d work.
I wasn’t impressed with the performance of my reloaded metal hulls. I did use Circle Fly wads and was able to snag a five gallon bucket of Alcan 12 gauge fiber wads, but I lost interest and put both the empties and loaded rounds in storage in my reloading shed.
Fast forward to 2000. I had decided to switch my shooting discipline from Traditional to Frontier Cartridge. I bought an 1866 “Yellowboy” from one of my shooting partners who had upgraded to a ’73, and started to reload my .45 Colt, .44WCF cartridges and Plastic 12 gauge hulls with Black Powder, Pyrodex, or 777 and more recently with Goex Pinnacle.
Then I remembered my stash of Russian shells. I disassembled all the Russian shells and separated the shot, wadding, and smokeless powder into separate containers. I was surprised to see the powder was a square flake and a pale green in color.
The shells that still had live primers I charged with 4.3cc’s of Pyrodex and reinstalled the heavy felt wads and replaced the #5 shot with 1.5 ounces of #7.5 shot. The Russians used a plastic cup that fit tight in the mouth of the hull that held the shot in place. I used those until I found about using white glue or Duco Cement to hold the over shot wad firmly in the hull.
Typical Black Powder clean-up procedures work well with these cases, but the copper plating does darken up very fast and green corrosion sometimes formed around the hull and had to be cleaned off before you could load or shoot them. I did try to shoot a few that had this verdigris around the case mouth and had to resort to using a cleaning rod to punch them out of the chambers of my double barreled shotgun. So from that point on I coated the hulls with Brasso, let them dry and threw them into my tumbler. They came out nice and shiny.
Out of all of this, I found that any #209 shot shell primer works with Black Powder or the subs.
So what does all this have to do with modifying these Russian hulls for use in repeaters? Well you had to get the background so you can see how much work I went thru to bring this information to my fellow shooters.
I’ve had a lot of time on my hands since I returned from Iraq and started hunting for a job, so as I was getting ready for the next Cowboy Shoot I thought I’d see what I could do with this stash of metal hulls because I wanted to use them in my IAC Lever Action 1887 12 gauge Shotgun..
In this photo you can see the original length of 2.75 inches of the Russian hulls and the tarnish that covers them. On the right are the modified hulls that were shortened to 60mm and cleaned up with Brasso. Above the hulls are the rings that were cut from the front of long hulls. I used a tube cutter which causes a slightly crimped look to the mouth of the shortened hulls. The next time I start shortening any more hulls, I plan to get a small chop saw from Harbor Freight.
Once I had 25 hulls shortened, I tried to see how well they fed thru my 1887 lever action shotgun. All but eight chambered. I attributed this to old hulls that were fired using smokeless powder and the pressure expanded the hulls so they only fit in my double barreled SG. I had to go through my stash and find eight that would chamber freely in my 1887.
Once I had all the hulls shortened, polished, and ready to be reloaded, I retreated to my reloading shed. I did not have the disposable funds to get the Chop Saw, so I bought an eighteen inch length of three-quarter inch PVC tubing and measured and cut a 60mm length off of it to act as a case length gage and used a hack saw to score a ring around the circumference of the hull and then used the pipe cutter to shorten the hull to the proper length. Once I had my old Lee Loader, pin block and wooden mallet out I proceeded to punch out the old primers. Once that was done I began re-priming using Fiocchi 209 primers. Again, the Lee Loader and some antique reloading tools I picked up some years ago came in handy.
The antique tools seen here are great for reloading brass hulls, but they did not work all that well with the Russian Steel hulls. I was real leery using the priming tool with the 209 primers, so I went with the Lee Loader’s priming tool/wad seater and the wooden mallet.
Once the primers were seated in the hulls, I used a Lee 4.0cc dipper to charge the hull with Goex Pinnacle 3Fg. I then seated a Circle Fly 11 gauge .125 inch over powder wad and applied pressure to compress the powder. I then seated a Circle Fly one half inch thick, 11 gauge fiber wad.
I then seated the shot cup I cut off from a smokeless12 gauge Federal wad. I then added a one and one-eighth ounce charge of #7.5 shot dropped from the dipper included in the Lee Loader Kit. After the shot was dumped into the hull I used a Circle Fly 10 gauge over shot card wad to secure the shot in the hull and put a bead of white glue around the inner perimeter of the hull to seal and secure the card in place.
I normally use either Federal paper hulls, or any of the various plastic hulls I pick up at the matches I go to for my Black Powder shot shell loadings. I wanted to try something else and since I did not have any brass hulls I decided to experiment with the old Russian hulls I had. I can see a sizing die in my future to bring these hulls down to the correct diameter and circumference so they will feed easy in my particular shotgun.
I do have a MEC collet sizer, but it does not size the full length of the case so I haven’t been able to get more of these hulls to chamber in the 1887 SG. I’m known to do things the hard way, but I don’t look at it like that. I see a problem that needs a solution. A quick call to CH 4D Tool and Die and I had a 12 Gauge sizing die in a few days.
Again I retreated to the reloading shed and, with a little effort, I removed the screw in bushing from my RCBS Rock Chucker and installed the 12 Gauge Sizing Die and an RCBS 12 Gauge shell holder in the press and ram. I removed the de-capping stem from the die body as it wouldn’t remove the No. 209 primers from the hulls.
After coating the hulls with RCBS’s case sizing lubricant I ran them up into the sizing die. Some were hard to push up into the die and some weren’t, but after a trip through the die then just dropped into the chamber of my 1887 shotgun. But not all of them would allow the breach block to fully close. It seems that the rims are not uniform in thickness on these hulls. So I had to take a needle file and take metal off the forward edge of the rim until the hull allowed the breach block to close completely. This would have been easy if I had a small hobby lathe, but it was time consuming having to file a bit, check the fit, and file some more until it fit, and was able to chamber, locking the breach, and eject using the lever and extractors…….. This is so much fun.
(I noticed some closing problems with my Double Barrel but chalked that up to the hulls needed to be resized.) This project was becoming a real chore. I can only offer this conjecture; the Russians make their shotguns with sloppy specs to match their ammunition’s sloppy specs.