Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => CAS FAQ => Topic started by: Marshal Halloway on December 27, 2005, 11:12:17 AM
-
Many newcomers to our sport or wannabe shooters have doubts when looking for guns and the total price tag to get started.
Through marketing, advertising and articles the potential new shooters can get the impression that having a set of guns out of the box is the same as being halfway through to get started. Many are in fact believing they are not ready to start in CAS unless the guns have gone through some gunsmithing, have some parts changed and otherwise done what may be considered a mandatory internal modification.
A set of CAS firearms (2 revolvers, 1 rifle and 1 shotgun) will cost a lot more than the price tags on the guns itself.
This has for many become a hesitating factor to join.
What is your advise to those on the doorstep to CAS and being afraid of the total cost?
-
Marshal,
The only work I have had done on my CAS firearms (2 Uberti 1873 Cattleman revolvers, 1894 Marlin lever rifle, 1930's vintage Ithaca double shotgun) was to have the shotgun checked for safety and the barrels shortened to 24 inches from 30.
That's it. No action jobs, no refinishing, nothing. I just take them out and shoot them, bring them home and clean them.
The only spring that was replaced was the bolt/trigger spring in one of the revolvers. The original spring broke and I replaced it with another flat spring.
For me this game is more about authenticity and fun then competition.
Sincerely,
Prof. A. Wickwire
-
I detail-strip any new or new-to-me gun that I get - regardless of whence it came.
I look for any burring or high point that needs relieving and thoroughly clean the weapon.
I'll then use 'Pro-Gold' for a grease on any bearing surface and 'Break-Free' for a general lube, since I like both products and am familiar with their properties.
That's it.
Those articles are written to sell spring kits and action jobs.
Better to spend that money on ammunition and develop a feel for the weapon and its accuracy, as most guns will easily out-shoot their owners.
Fantasies aside - most shooters will never rise to the upper levels due largely in part to the fact that they won't devote the ammunition/range time, so a tricked-out piece is wasted until their skills improve to the point to where they can actually gain from the work done on the weapon.
Spend the initial money on a shooting battery that feels natural - the rest on ammunition - and practice, practice, practice...
Good Luck.
Scouts Out!
-
There are some "out of the box" guns that are pretty close to being "smithed" guns. The Great Westerns and Charles Daly's come to mind first. Most of my revolvers have only had a spring change to make them easier to cock Duelist and not much more than that.
Rifles and shotguns can be more of a problem, IE: shotguns that don't stay completely open to reload. Or rifles that stove pipe or won't feed smoothly......Buck 8) ::) ;)
-
I agree with St George. Though I haven't shot CAS yet I have certainly shot my share of Police and IPSC. Spend the money first on ammo. If or when you get good enough, you will know what smithing you want. I must have put 50,000 rounds through 1911's before I started messing with them, and then it was sights and a trigger job. Could I shoot IPSC with a stock 1911? Yes and did. That was before the sport went to hell in a hand basket with trick leather, comp guns, optics and so on.
-
Good advice to not jump too much into action work at the beginning. There are a lot of things you can have done that really aren't much benefit unless you're one of the top shooters. Here's my $.02:
My Cimarron Evil Roys are ready for action right out of the box. Of course, they cost more than your standard pistol, but they're really ready to go.
Everything else I have has had lighter springs and little else needed. Springs are easy to work down if you don't want to buy them already done.
The amount spend on action work isn't too much if you go to the right 'smith. Usually ±$100 per gun. Just consider that part of the initial purchase price and it doesn't hurt any. If you can do it yourself, figure a couple hours of your time to do the work.
-
Well when I first started getting interested in CAS. I started pricing guns. Yes they are expensive even stock. But I am also an avid hunter and shooter. So guns to me are multipurpose. I dont wanna be out deer hunting with one of my .45's and have it go off too soon because I have to light of a trigger pull. I havent shot my first match yet. I highly doubt I will do anything to the actions of any of my guns. Atleast for the time being. My advice to all new comers like me is shoot the guns in practice and matches till your used to them before you go changing things. And for pete's sake have fun aint that what this sport is all about.
-
Depending on the quality of arm you buy, they might just be good enough "out of the box". When I starting cowboy action shooting, I used the guns I had. At that time, you only needed three, revolver, rifle/carbine, & shotgun. I showed up with my Colt SAA .45, Winch. .30-30, and 1919 Riverside SxS shotgun. They were all "box stock", well except that old side-by-side, it'd been repaired so many times, I don't think anything on the gun was original except the frame and barrels. My only disappointment was that I couldn't use my .30-30. Borrowed a friends '92 until I found and bought one of my own.
My new friends in CAS (now known as the "Wild Bunch") regularly advised everyone that practicing and competition would hone your skills more than action jobs. If you ain't got the muscle memory, no amount of "race gun" is going to make up for it. I still think that spending the money on practice ammo will be of more immediate benefit to your shooting prowess than action jobs, or whiz-bang go-fast parts. When I shot all the time, (2-3 times a month) I generally finished in the top 10% of any match I entered. All the top shooters will tell you, practice, practice, and then practice some more. They may have different opinions on what constitutes "practice", but any practice is better than none.
However, all that said, the foremost reason most new shooters are attracted to this "game" is that it looks like fun! That it appears so is so deceptively simple that few folks actually understand how it came to appear to be so much fun. 1st, and foremost; it appears "fun", 'cause it IS. Each and every contestant determines the level of expectation on any number of levels within the framework of the competition for him/herself. Simply taking time to learn the different aspects of the game in order to determine where you wish to place your competitive emphasis will enable you to better define the goals you set for yourself and make a plan of action to fulfill those goals.
For example: I know a new shooter, who doesn't own any guns to play this game. When asked for my advise on what to buy, here's how I advised him. Meet me at the next match, I'll bring some extra guns so you can get a feel for what several different models feel like. These won't be my "race guns", as they're a little finicky (read touchy). I'll introduce you to some friends that compete in different classes so you can get a grasp of what they're about. Don't worry about buying anything until you've been to a couple of matches, narrowed down the areas that feed your fantasies, then shop away.
That usually snags a lifelong convert to the cowboy way.
Some of these friends have gone on to win major matches while others just plug away at targets, trying for that "clean match" self-award. Some have spent far more time and money on their costumes than their guns.
This is still why I dislike the concept of 2 sixguns for the main matches. It is a deterrent to increasing the ranks of cowboy action shooters. And why I just love the "Working Cowboy" class. Heck, I'd still rather shoot my 10 handgun shots outta the same gun, reloading under the clock. Yea, it's tricky, but... heck even Gene and Hoppy had to do it sometime... even if was "off camera!" ;D ;D ;D ;D
But, I deviate from the original question. Simple answer? Yes, "out of the box" CAS guns are good enough. Some are better than others. You pays yer money and takes yer chances.
-
When I started CAS I bit the bullet and got a complete action job after my first season of shooting my new guns. The result, two slick guns that will outlast me and probably my daughters too. I eventually put in Wolfe main springs for reliability in ignition. My shot gun and my rifle have all benefitted from stoning and the rifle has The Smith Shop springs.
My advice to new shooters. Shoot your guns first. Have someone teach you how to dissasemble your firearms. Learn EXACTLY how they operate internally. Learn what is available for action jobs. Shoot other peoples guns to see what an action job will accomplish. Then decide what you want to do. Only modifiy if you want and to the extent you want.
-
When I started . i bought used guns that I could afford. I traded a french tulle that i had built for a 1866 yellowboy, the guy also had a uBerti millinuem that I bought for 200.00 I bought another one one for 225.00 and a friend sold me a 12 ga. double for 200.00. I tore the uberti's a part and honed every thing and put a leather spaacer in the main springs. The double you had to break open over you knee to get it open. I took it apart and shorten the spring and polished all the places the were rubbing, and polished the cylinders. My point being that you don't have to spend a lot of money to get into CAS shooting if you are handy with your hands and look around before buying a gun. Just my thoughts on this
-
Most traditional (flat main spring) SAAs will benefit from a "reduced power" main spring by being easier to cock.
-
My NA Schofield are out of the box and work fine for me, shotgun and rifle are stock also and I'm happy with them. ;) Could they be smoother, sure but I get along fine as is. ;D I'm the slowest part in the equation.
SR
-
Frankly, if you're afraid of the cost, then shop around and get some used guns. CAS is a pretty inexpensive hobby. I've had others that are more mainstream and a LOT more expensive.
-
Tell them not to worry..most of the spring work is simple and can be easily demonstrated even to the novice, any short stroke work comes with excellent installation instructions and with a little club member support is also not rocket science. So if they want to spend 200$ extra and receive club mentoring it`s not that expensive to have a slicked up trio of weapons. I gleaned as much info off the wire as I could and then slowly and cautiously did the work myself. For anything of an advanced nature I would send to a smith. Doc
-
Look, the most common theme in Cowboy Action Shooting is "HAVE FUN". Many who have posted before me had bottom lined this simple fact.
The best advise given over and over again is buy the guns that suit you, use them Out of Box for awhile and see how they handle for you. The most common work done on many of the pistols is a lighter hammer spring for ease of cocking. Unless you are entering CAS as a competition foremost there is nothing you need to do to new guns. My favorite statement for many months after becoming active in my local SASS group was "I'm still at the bottom of the list" with a big smile because I had more fun that day than an old man should have...LOL
Now I watch the list and each month I gradually climb up from the bottom, so my real competition is with myself, I am getting better than me and the only thing I have done is have the springs changed out in my pistols and clean the devil out of every gun after every match.
Have fun,,,that is the Primary Goal for all of us.
Coop
-
Well I have to say that I am so glad I read this post, because I was, as I suppose every new commer, is under the impression that you HAVE to get action work done on all your firearms... "Whew" What a relief, now I can make a better choice on the guns I want. I was bassing the future purchase on having to spend more money on action work. I as most, want to get into it for the fun of it not the competition. The only question that I have now is all the SxS's I have looked at have a tight break open action. What as a newbie, can I do to remedy this when I do buy a SxS.
-
I carry my Cattleman when I hunt on my friends ranch near Jacksboro, TX. I use it and my other rifles/shotguns as tools so I want them dependable. I sure don't want that Cattleman to go off usless I have cocked it and pointing down range. If I can afford it I may set a pistol up for just CAS and nothing else.
LazyK Pejay
-
Well, here I am, on the doorstep, and I want to shoot! When I bought my SASS gun set I didn't realize it was 2-6-guns. Heck, The Duke only had 1-one six shooter. But know I know, and it's okay. I have the second one on order. So, I've spent about $1,700.00 on the three so far. Now, about $350.00 for leather and, yes, I guess a cart to carry it all in. So, when I'm done I guess I'll be "in" about 3 grand, or close to it. I want to shoot. I haven't shot a stage yet, but I'm getting close. The local club meets on 1-21 and you bet I'll be there! I want to shoot.
The draw, for me, to SASS or CAS, is to have fun. In the past I was a very accomplished shooter. I plan to be the same now. I have owned and shot many different weapons, both for fun and competition. I've never slicked them up, just kept them clean. I don't plan to slick these guns up either. So, I guess I'll be in the 90% bracket of the people just looking for fun, fun and more fun. So, for me, Out of The Box will be good enough. I don't want to be in the top 1% of the pack. It's to much work for me.
-
Don't even buy a gun that you do not shoot well. That alone should save you lots of grief. Buy a good gun, one that already functions well. By used, but not abused, guns.
My shotguns were bought for hunting. That means that if they do not handle and shoot well for me, I don't buy them. My favorite ones have had almost nothing done to them, other than carefull cleaning and some refurbishing of old ones.
My Rugers have been extensively slicked by me and the stocks and sights fitted to me. Cost in dollars was zilch. Be especially careful in choosing revolver -- they are the most difficult of the CAS guns to shoot well.
My Rossi 92 was extensively slicked by me and years later sent to Steve Young for his treatment, which was done while he was putting new sights on it. The sights were a real improvement. He did make it slicker than I had. Buy a rifle that you shoot well, NOT one of the popular ones that you will "learn to shoot well".
In addition, now that the Rugers and Rossi 92 are nice and smooth, I only use powdered grafite as lube. Much slicker than the usual oils.
Lars
-
Well I have to say that I am so glad I read this post, because I was, as I suppose every new commer, is under the impression that you HAVE to get action work done on all your firearms... "Whew" What a relief, now I can make a better choice on the guns I want. I was bassing the future purchase on having to spend more money on action work. I as most, want to get into it for the fun of it not the competition. The only question that I have now is all the SxS's I have looked at have a tight break open action. What as a newbie, can I do to remedy this when I do buy a SxS.
go to the gunsmith forum (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?board=5.0) here at CasCity....lots of good stuff on shotguns there....Has helped me tremendously and I cant even spell Gun Smith ;D
-
Well I have to say that I am so glad I read this post, because I was, as I suppose every new commer, is under the impression that you HAVE to get action work done on all your firearms... "Whew" What a relief, now I can make a better choice on the guns I want. I was bassing the future purchase on having to spend more money on action work. I as most, want to get into it for the fun of it not the competition. The only question that I have now is all the SxS's I have looked at have a tight break open action. What as a newbie, can I do to remedy this when I do buy a SxS.
The shotgun that is CAS legal and opens fully right out of the box is the IGA/Stoeger Coachgun. You don't have to do anything to it.
I carry my Cattleman when I hunt on my friends ranch near Jacksboro, TX. I use it and my other rifles/shotguns as tools so I want them dependable. I sure don't want that Cattleman man to go off usless I have cocked it and pointing down range. If I can afford it I may set a pistol up for just CAS and nothing else.
LazyK Pejay
My Colt SAAs will probably not pass an armorer's inspection at any major department because they are light. But, I have shot them and qualified with them when I was a Sheriff's Deputy as off-duty guns. the point is, that I've shot them thousands of rounds since they have been worked on, and I'm comfortable with the action and function. They are safe in my hands, a newcomers'? Let me put this way, I ain't loanin' any gun out without first ensuring myself that the person is knowledgeable and comfortable with SAs and has handled the gun in question prior to any live amo being put in their hands.
-
I do not know squat about SASS / CAS shooting but I have been thinking about it for some time I own several single action revolvers mostly 44 magnums but no rifle or shotgun I am also timid about going to an event to watch because thats my nature. Its easy to reply to a group of faceless people but just showing up at a match and not knowing anyone is hard for me.
-
I do not know squat about SASS / CAS shooting but I have been thinking about it for some time I own several single action revolvers mostly 44 magnums but no rifle or shotgun I am also timid about going to an event to watch because thats my nature. Its easy to reply to a group of faceless people but just showing up at a match and not knowing anyone is hard for me.
As soon as you show up you will know someone 'cause they will come over and introduce themself and welcome you. ;D
-
That's how I started in it, called the closest range that had Cowboy shooting, called the person in charge, said I was interesed and asked what did I need. He said I needed to show up, and have fun! Figuring out what firearms and clothing I needed could come later, that there would be plenty of people glad to help me get started.
-
I agree with LG. I called a range and went over, had to borrow a holster, and my shotgun belt was a bit small and didn't reallly work too well, but there were plenty of folks to help out and fun was had by all.
-
I've recently obtained an original Winchester '97 takedown pump shotgun (manufactured in 1914) which has been thoroughly checked by a professional as safe to shoot. Here's my question. There was some white paint on the stock that I carefully removed with quadruple "0" steel wool, (wrapped the rest of the gun in a plastic bag which was taped shut to keep out debris). I don't believe the wood was originally varnished and it sure has lots of dings in it. Should I oil the wood to protect it and if so, what should I use? I've used Murphy's Oil Soap to clean it some. This isn't a beautiful shotgun, but shoots well and has lots of character.
Thanks for your help.
-
Boiled linseed oil is what I use. You can get it from Brownells or Midway under the name, Lin-Speed oil.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=8004&title=GUNSTOCK+OIL (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=8004&title=GUNSTOCK+OIL)
-
Thanks, Marshall, I do that. Appreciate the advice.
-
I do not know squat about SASS / CAS shooting but I have been thinking about it for some time I own several single action revolvers mostly 44 magnums but no rifle or shotgun I am also timid about going to an event to watch because thats my nature. Its easy to reply to a group of faceless people but just showing up at a match and not knowing anyone is hard for me.
Maddog, just get out and do it. I saw a guy at my local target range with an EOT t-shirt in 1985, went up and asked where he got it, we talked for several hours, and I now consider him one of my closest friends. We live way far apart and haven't seen each other in years, but stay in touch via the 'net. Yep, he invited me to their next shoot, and I've been having fun ever since! ;D
-
As for getting action jobs, Me and Old Top sorta feel that the old time cowboys shot 'em outta the box, and that should be good enough for us. I have an old Dakota that is really heavy in the hammer/trigger pull, but I have shot it so much over the last 25 years (in fact I could probalby tell you which of my guns I was holding blindfolded) I am used to the feel. MY GW2's feel smooth outta the box, so long story, I like to learn to use the gun as i get it....that's just me, and I aint tryin to be top dawg anyways...just shoot clean.
cc
-
We (for the most part) do our own gunsmithin'.
We dang-neart ALWAYS put lighter hammer & SOMETIMES lighter trigger springs for ease of operation in rifles & revolvers. Not as much on the SxS's. ::)
We also smooth up (deburr edges on some slidin' & rotatin' guts) on some brand new guns. And lube them ('zactly like St George said) with Break Free & good gun grease.
Many used guns we have are much smoother jus' from years of use.
Mustang Gregg
-
I do not know squat about SASS / CAS shooting but I have been thinking about it for some time I own several single action revolvers mostly 44 magnums but no rifle or shotgun I am also timid about going to an event to watch because thats my nature. Its easy to reply to a group of faceless people but just showing up at a match and not knowing anyone is hard for me.
We all were new he first time we turned up. I went for a look, asked a few questions, next thing I know they had scrounged around, I had shotshells in my shirt pocket, a passel of borrowed guns, a too small gunbelt tied up with a bit of rope, a borrowed set of eye protectors, disposable ear plugs and I was shooting cowboy in my baseball cap!
I just got back from a three day shoot and the only ugly scene I witnessed was two friends arguing over who was going to lend me a spare rifle after mine broke (actually rattled apart, still ok when I can get it back together).
You'll get a heaping helping of hospitality!
-
There are a number of gun dealers around the country that specialize in cowboy action guns. They often have stocks of used, tuned firearms available for purchase at fair prices.
Ask around at your local matches and see if there is one in your area or one that folks in your area suggest. I know of at least one such dealer that will let you work out payments to get what you want. (If you want to know, PM me.)
There is also the SASS classifieds as well as classifieds on various club sites. That will help you perhaps find what you are looking for without breaking the bank. Post a Want To Buy ad if there is something you are looking for specifically. Often it turns out that someone has been thinking of selling that extra (whatever you are after) and just needed the push of someone asking to go ahead and sell it.
You can buy off the shelf guns and play also, if that is what you want to do. You may not win any speed side matches with what you are shooting, but most of them will work out of the box.
For leather, you can again ask around at your local matches. There may be someone that has a rig that they haven't used in a while that would be perfect for you. There may also be a largely unknown small local maker that can make you quite nice custom gear for a good starter price, also.
Just for Pete's sake, go to a match BEFORE you buy all your gear. It will save you time and grief. Most of the time there is someone (or several someones) that will let you try out their gear. Guns, what have you. You can avoid wasting money and making it more expensive by going to a match and asking around.
Take care!
Jack Lee
-
Best advice I can give is to find out about your SASS/CAS club. Make contact with the club's Territorial Govenor or POC. Whether you are a novice or veteran shooter, most clubs will have extra guns, ammo, and the necessary equipment to get you started. When I started, I had only one pistol. (CA has strict rules on how many guns you can purchase in a one month period.) But, club members loaned me the firearms that I needed to compete. I supplied my own ammunition and offered up my spent brass and shotgun shells to the kind members that let me use their guns. I offered to clean the loaner weapons I used during the shoots. Using loaner guns, is a good way to get an idea of what your options are in purchasing firearms.
I bought guns that I like; they are stock, right out of the box. No modifications. I use my forearms for other things besides CAS shooting, so I purposely bought firearms that I could use for more than one purpose. I will never be a top 10% shooter, but I have a lot of fun shooting. For me it is shhoting as fast as I feel comfortable, while always aiming for that "Clean Match" designation, all while dressing as authenticly as possible. For me it is another way to connect to western history and my families history. I keep track of my shooting times and scores and try to improve at each mew match.
The bottom line: Be safe and HAVE FUN!
-
I shot cowboy for about two years before I messed with action jobs with guns.
As SP already mentioned early in this thread - after two years - I knew the guns well - their point of aim and their internals.
Then I could pick and choose what I wanted worked on and understood better what various action job things would do for my guns.
as far as leather - if you are patient and do some searching on the internet and at local clubs - you can alwasy find used leather and or people who do great local work for less than what the bigger names are charging.
My two cents
PR
-
Frankly, if you're afraid of the cost, then shop around and get some used guns. CAS is a pretty inexpensive hobby. I've had others that are more mainstream and a LOT more expensive.
This is all relative...
IDPA runs me:
$40 annual membership
$500 cost of Springfield 1911
$30 belt
$30 holster
Total $600 give or take before fees, range, ammo, etc.
CAS
$55 SASS membership
$1,000 for 2 SAA type guns on average (be it Californians, Great Westerns, Smoke Wagons, etc... give or take $200)
$500 for a shotgun
$500 for a rifle (cheapest being the Rossi 92, otherwise you're looking at north of $1k for your '66s, '73s, etc)
$200 for a dual gun leather rig
$100 make or buy your cart
$100 for shotgun cartridge belt, and other access.
$200 minimum for your "costume" and that price is just boots, britches, shirt, hat that's just "basic"
Average total $2,655.
I don't know about you but $2,655 is a far cry from $600 and no where near the neighborhood of "inexpensive". Now if you're talking a golf habit or bass fishing with a boat, etc... I can see your point.
-
To weigh in on the actual out-of-box (OOB) question, it depends.
I've got 3 of 4 single action pistols that could have gone to the range untouched. The fourth is out of time, gouges the cylinder and locks up. So some may or may not be able to truly get an out of box that'll work. That being said... my story will make my point for me.
I started IDPA a couple of years ago believing as always that I should fight like I train and that means training like I fight. I won't go into the M9, but I'll tell you that for my concealed carry I wanted to be more proficient with it than just a day or two a year at the range.
I started IDPA with my carry De Santis holster, my Glock 23, and the only thing I had to buy was a magazine holster. I learned a lot about the manual of arms in situations with my Glock that pure range time doesn't get you. I was never the slowest, but also never the fastest. Towards the end of the first year I was the upper faster half of the club. That's with a shorter barrel, without a trigger job, fiber optic sights, or fancy holsters. So yes, you can start CAS, IDPA or whatever (not IPSC though..) with just an OOB piece.
I finally succumbed though when I tried my friend's fiber optic sighted Glock 19 and cut 3 seconds off my time with the "fancy" sights and 1 inch longer barrel! That's when my hobby gun, the 1911, came out of the safe and started being used in IDPA. So I got corrupted and started... gasp, "gaming". A trigger job, fancy sights, and a Kydex rig later I'm a perversion of who I was when I started IDPA. I'm so ashamed.
-
Interesting thread..., an old thread, but interesting never-the-less.
I haven't attended a match yet, however, I have bought two new, Cimarron rifles. I'm a old gun nut, so I know what I'm doing, when it comes to firearms.
Just with the Two Cimmaron rifles, one is an 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 38-40, the other is another 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 44-40, I am in this, up to now, at about $2700.00, just for the rifles.
I wanted the rifles, despite the cost...! I asked Cimarron to hand picked them from their stock, and I got a couple of beauties.
I want one more 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle, this one will be in 32-20. And, I want a Cimarron 1876 in 45-75, if the 1876 is made by Uberti.
I bought the Cimarrons because of the extra, original barrel stamping that Cimarron puts on them. It makes them look a liittle more original.
CZ just came out with a 12 GA, SXS Coach gun, and it is a beauty. I wanted the CZ because of the beauty, and the quality, of the firearm. That was $800.00 and change for the new CZ.
I already had a TOZ (Russian) 12 GA, SXS coach gun in good unfired condition. The problem with the TOZ is that the finish is so utilitarian, and it has strong hammer springs, which I call the hammer springs from hell. I will eventually sell the TOZ to some lucky person.
I want several Cimarron SAA's, two in each caliber, to match the three Cimarron 1873 rifles. However, since I live in the state of granola, (California, the land of the fruits, flakes and nuts) I will only be able to purchase one handgun a month. So, unless I can get a FTF deal from somebody, It is going to take quiet a while to acquire the SAA's I want.
I'm not wealthy; I live on a fixed income. However, I know how to save for what I want.
Bill
-
Rugers will be out of the box reliable over built and darn near indestructable.
Baikal now Remmington Spartan shot guns will be reliable, very stiff and will need chambers honed to shuck shells quickly but the least expensive.
Just about any rifle will do. They slick up over time with normal wear and if one can take them apart, debur that probably will help a lot.
for 99.9 percent of the new shooters out there if you put away $ 2 per week you will have enough money to buy slicked up race guns long before your skills exceed the capabilities of the guns and the guns are the only thing keeping you from winning EOT or winter range.
Get what feels good, shoots good enough and will be semi reliable and have fun. Winning will come a long time later and is not necessary to enjoy the sport. I am still timed with and Hour Glass with rifles and pistols and a Calendar with the Shot gun, but I doubt if any one has any more fun.
-
Interesting thread..., an old thread, but interesting never-the-less.
I haven't attended a match yet, however, I have bought two new, Cimarron rifles. I'm a old gun nut, so I know what I'm doing, when it comes to firearms.
Just with the Two Cimmaron rifles, one is an 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 38-40, the other is another 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 44-40, I am in this, up to now, at about $2700.00, just for the rifles.
I wanted the rifles, despite the cost...! I asked Cimarron to hand picked them from their stock, and I got a couple of beauties.
I want one more 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle, this one will be in 32-20. And, I want a Cimarron 1876 in 45-75, if the 1876 is made by Uberti.
I bought the Cimarrons because of the extra, original barrel stamping that Cimarron puts on them. It makes them look a liittle more original.
CZ just came out with a 12 GA, SXS Coach gun, and it is a beauty. I wanted the CZ because of the beauty, and the quality, of the firearm. That was $800.00 and change for the new CZ.
I already had a TOZ (Russian) 12 GA, SXS coach gun in good unfired condition. The problem with the TOZ is that the finish is so utilitarian, and it has strong hammer springs, which I call the hammer springs from hell. I will eventually sell the TOZ to some lucky person.
I want several Cimarron SAA's, two in each caliber, to match the three Cimarron 1873 rifles. However, since I live in the state of granola, (California, the land of the fruits, flakes and nuts) I will only be able to purchase one handgun a month. So, unless I can get a FTF deal from somebody, It is going to take quiet a while to acquire the SAA's I want.
I'm not wealthy; I live on a fixed income. However, I know how to save for what I want.
Bill
As for the CZ shotgun look for a Liberty I or II it is the same shotgun. I have one I got for a bit over $300 used and a fine shotgun. Now mine is in 24" barrel but the 20" are out there all over the place. They run in the $400 range from what I've seen. Oh and they are made in Turkey by the way.
-
Biggest thing for me was finding calibers I liked. I'm meeting half way by getting the cylinders rebored for what I want, and is easy to find ammo or reload it. So if you don't like .38 or .45LC don't give up, they have ways of making what you want!!! ;)
-
I bought a pair of Taylor's Smoke Wagons in .38 Special a while back. They are very smooth and worked great right out of the box. I shoot em' bone stock and they have definitely improved my pistol shooting. I like the feel of the checkered grips.
-
For new shooters, the first couple of years or maybe more the limiting factor is learning the ins and outs of the matches. Learning to shoot quickly and accurately, learning to reload the shotgun quickly and things like that. There are alot of things to work on. A half a second saved because your legs are strong and you can run a little bit faster to make the next station is the same as a half a second gained because you spent $500.00 having your lever action short stroked and slicked up.The guns can be made faster, but it's folly to think that you can slick up you guns enough to overcome poor technique and teqnique comes with pratice and learning. Remember that the search for great technique does not always lead to great speed, but the search for great speed does always lead to great technique.
-
I like them Smoke Wagons, Johnny. A pard I shoot with has a pair, and with the slimmer grips, they have a good 'Colt' feel to them.
Deadwood
-
This is my some what limited experience.
Ruger Vaqueros Original and New generally shot when (work right out of the box) and where you point them.
Baikal shotguns can be frustrating out of the box. Shells will not shuck without being pulled and when you open the action the default opening is about 3/4 open with the lower portion of the chambers still blocked by the breach. If you push the barrels all the way open and push the locking lever to the left the barrels will stay completely open. If you do not touch the loading lever they will return to the 3/4 open position if you let them. This can be rather frustrationg.
I was able to polish my chambers enough that the shells now shuck easily makes no difference if slick sided Win AA or Ribbed Federals. Used a long cleaning jag and about 3 inch wide swath of green scotch bright pad bought in packets from Sams or Walmart (cut across short axis) Chucked it up in my drill press, was difficult to get into chambers intially. Turned on the drill press and raised and lowered the barrels slowly until they got warm. Shut off drill press and changed to other barrel. Repeated process numerous times. Periodically reassembled shotgun and checked shucking with fired shells. Chambers start to get pretty shiney. Quit when I thought it was ok.
Fired a match and found still did not shuck reliably but much better than before.
Cleaned gun and honed somemore. Ended up doing about 30 - 45 seconds per barrel with a little headlight renewal polishing compound. Work great now.
I have an old circa 1995 rossi 1892 that is pretty stiff and somewhat frustrationg as It slowes me down. Slciking one of these may be money well spent.
If you are in it just for fun and don't really care what the closck says out of box guns even the Rossi will work. I have heard the newer guns are a lot slicker out of the box than older ones.
-
Shoot them out of the box, no slicking or short stroking.
They didn't do it in the old days so we shouldn't either. I love hearing people talking about short stroking their rifles and saying "If they could have done it back then they would have" my reply is always "Well hell, mount a laser on there as well cause if they could have done that they would have"
-
Does steak sauce make a steak good or does it cover the inadequacies of the chef and taste of poorly prepared meat?
You can sprinkle powdered sugar on a turd and call it a donut. But, at the end of the day it is still a POS.
To a point, modifications can make any gun better. But no amount of customizing will make a crap gun great.
I am not in the business of promoting certain brand names but I will tell you that some manufacturers are better than others. I also know that just because a gun is more expensive than others, does not make it better. In some cases, the high price one pays is for the name of the manufacturer on the gun, not for the quality of the gun.
In general, Rugers are thought by many, to be the best all around 6-shooter to have. But, as good as they may be, you will quickly notice that there are plenty of ways to improve them.... which is true for any gun, no matter who's name is stamped on it.
Is it good enough? Yes.
Could it be better? Yes
-
The New Vaqueros are the best Ruger SA ever made. I have quite a few Rugers, and while they are all good, they all tolerated a bit of polishing and spring changing here and there to make them better.
I bought a couple of New Vaqueros last year. Having been down this road with Ruger SA's before, I was all set to slick them up. All the normal places that can stand some help were already helped by the factory. I didn't mess with them, I just started shooting them.
Shotgun, I got a couple of Double Trigger Stoeger Supreme coach guns (S.S. receivers). I polished the chambers and put in aftermarket firing pins (never had a trouble with the original pins however). The reason I have two of them is sort of a long story. I would suggest that unless you do your research first, stick with the double trigger. I also replaced the factory screw-in chokes with a set of aftermarket stainless I.C. chokes so that both barrels would pattern the same.
Rifle, wanted a .45 to match the revolvers. I looked for a Rossi 92... couldn't find one (long back order at the time). I looked for a Marlin in 45..couldn't find one. Factory told me they dropped that caliber when they moved out of CT. Wound up with an HRA Big Boy. I had some feeding issues with it that the factory fixed no charge, no grief. It works flawlessly now and I didn't have to pay anything to slick it up.
So, the only one I spent any after-out-of-the-box money on was the shotgun - maybe $200 in parts and the chamber hone to do two shotguns. No gunsmith need to do any of the work... it is all pretty simple.
Rick
-
Forgive me, but I'm sure you meant to say
The New Vaqueros are the best Ruger SA ever made....
Rick
Except for the 3-screw Blackhawks! ;D ;D ;D
-
I was able to polish my [SxS shotgun] chambers enough that the shells now shuck easily makes no difference if slick sided Win AA or Ribbed Federals. Used a long cleaning jag and about 3 inch wide swath of green scotch bright pad bought in packets from Sams or Walmart (cut across short axis) Chucked it up in my drill press, was difficult to get into chambers intially. Turned on the drill press and raised and lowered the barrels slowly until they got warm. Shut off drill press and changed to other barrel. Repeated process numerous times. Periodically reassembled shotgun and checked shucking with fired shells. Chambers start to get pretty shiney. Quit when I thought it was ok.
Fired a match and found still did not shuck reliably but much better than before.
Cleaned gun and honed somemore. Ended up doing about 30 - 45 seconds per barrel with a little headlight renewal polishing compound. Work great now.
Something that worked for me on a brand-new SxS that already had halfway decent chambers -- an oversized bore mop chucked into an electric drill using the end of an old cleaning rod. Liberally coat the bore mop with Colgate Toothpaste (the old fashioned, plain-white kind).
Turn on the drill motor, work the bore mop repeatedly up and down the chamber. Alternate chambers. Remove. Clean out all the toothpaste and oil the shotgun appropriately. Shoot a match.
For me, one application was enough to make the chambers able to shuck out the empties slicker'n -- um -- never mind. I repeat it every now and then, just to keep the naturally-forming residue under some kind of control.
Plain ol' Colgate Toothpaste is just about the finest cleaning/rubbing/honing compound there is, and heck knows its cheap enough...
-
Forgive me, but I'm sure you meant to say Except for the 3-screw Blackhawks! ;D ;D ;D
I will agree with you on that...!
Bill
-
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/Bibbyman/IMG_20130923_083521_zpsc3f7a0aa.jpg)
I bought these matched Uberti Cattleman 45 Colts through Gunbroker. I've been reading stories about all makes and brands of guns that were defective right out of the box or needing a lot of attention. I got the impression new guns automatically needed to be sent off for professional help. I was pleased to find both Cattleman to be very good in every way. They even shoot point of aim.
I decided to do nothing but shot and clean them. But... you know how it is. I had an order in to MidwayUSA so I added a set of Wolff springs. Just one set. I installed the set in one gun. The results were underwhelming. You could make yourself believe the Wolff spring gun was had a litte lighter hammer and trigger pull but I would have to have measuring gages to trll for sure. I had Mary try both guns and tell me what gun had the lighter action. She couldn't tell. For the small improvement, if any, I just have spare springs.
-
To me, it completely depends on the gun. I have had some that out of the box needed an action job because they were out of time, mainly less expensive revolvers. Others, I just did a detial strip and cleaning, reassembled and have shot ever since. Then there is my 1897 which is still not good to go, but it was a box of parts when I got it for half of a song ;D.
I actually had an action job done one time that made my Rossi soooo smooooooth, but it didn't last 2 more years of regular CAS competition. This taught me to follow the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Now, My Norinco 1887 needed some work to make it function reliably, but that has proven to be the exception, not the rule.
On the other hand, knowing that your equipment is capable of being extremely accurate, smooth, and reliable gives you a great deal of confidence. Again, this is from experience. ;)
-
I don't know why I haven't been here before. Strange that. However, I'd like to throw a couple of opinions out there from the standpoint
of a long term Gunsmith, working on and tuning CAS guns.
When this topic first started way back in the way back, most CAS guns weren't all that wonderful. But ........ for the most part, they at
least worked.
Today, there have been great improvements in the guns available to CAS players. Some things have not changed however. Most CAS guns
are very "over sprung." Most of the difficulty in operation stems from those springs. Springs changes are something almost every CAS
player can do at home. AFTER BUYING A GOOD SET OF GUN SCREWDRIVERS. Simply changing out the springs can make a very good
improvement in the usability of out of the box guns.
There is, of course, a litany of things to do to make CAS guns competitive. Most of that is a waste of money for a newbie. Swap out the
springs and then play with em for a while. Have Fun.
Coffinmaker