Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Two Bit Charlie on March 02, 2018, 04:36:12 PM
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I was on another forum and the discussion of using APP or other subs came up. They were saying that if you used APP, had tight fitting balls, even if you did not use lubed wads or have grease over your balls, you didn't have to worry about chain fires. Why is that? Is it the powder, or is it the tight fitting balls seal the cylinder? If It's the fit of the balls, can you do without lubed wads or greased balls with real black powder?
I'm just getting into cap guns. I use APP in my cowboy guns and Swiss in my BPCR.
Two-Bit Charlie
PS -Try writing a post like this while keeping a straight face. :o
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:D Well .... Since you ask .. :D
There's really no need to grease yer balls ::) Or for that matter greasy anywhere. Actually. Don't need any grease on yer balls at all (snicker snicker snicker) ;D Don't need lubed Wads neither. Total waste of time and material. With APP or Black MZ.
There are several schools of thought concerning Chain Fire. Thought number one: Chain Fire is caused by poor fitting or missing caps. After all, there is a great ball of fire around yer nipples (Grin, snicker snicker) at ignition. Very possible to get "flash over" sufficient to cause Chain Fire because yer Nipples are unprotected :D So ... be sure to protect yer nipples :o If you have a stage with a reload, load all 6 chambers. Cap 5 at the loading table (that's all you can cap anyway) and at the Buzzard, cap your 6th nipple BEFORE you shoot that pistol. Keeps yer nipple ::) protected.
Thought number two: Poorly fitting Balls. If yer balls fit poorly :o you will have a problem (potentially). Correct size balls ;D will shave a tiny ring of lead all the way around the ball and the ball will seal the chamber completely. No Chain Fire. If your shooting Pietta .44s, always start with .451 balls.
Thought number three: Greasing your balls (ROFLMAO) is not real effective. Grease yer balls (falls off chair), fire a round, then look at the cylinder face. Grease be gone. Blown clean off except for a thin film of grease on the cylinder face. This thin film of grease will trap spilled powder (from a flask) and trail it (powder) from chamber to chamber (think "fuse") and perhaps sneak past yer other balls (choke) and in some circles it thought to be the prime criminal.
My suggestion. Load OFF THE GUN. Use a cylinder loading stand. Between stages, wipe the cylinder face clean, the barrel breach clean and the Arbor clean. Takes about 10 seconds. Use a small funnel (Possibles shop or other) with a scoop or flask. You always have a clean cylinder face. Gun runs as smooth and clean at stage six as stage one. I drop the APP, ram the projectile and DONE. Never had a Chain Fire. I am opinionated too.
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I've shot 44 with bare balls with BlackMZ and it not only worked fine but was a lot cleaner than with any lube. I did find BlackMZ to be much more powerful than real black. I cut the charge to the minimum and used a filler to take up space.
I had a Remington 58 when I was still in my teens and the mouths of the chambers were chamfered and the balls would swedge down on loading so there was no ring of lead.
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So what you're saying is, It's the fitting of the balls not the kind of propellant. Doesn't matter if it's APP, BlackMZ or true black powder a proper fitting ball will not let a chain fire happen from the business end of the cylinder.
Thank you
Two-Bit Charlie
I never had this much fun writing about cartridge guns ;D
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OK Two Bit.
Pay attention. I'm only gonna say this oncest. Suppository Shooters are BORING!! Really really BORING!! Nowhere near as much fun as Cap Guns. GOT IT?? OK .. Good.
Now, to elaborate. You should carry a small spray bottle of PAM. Hydrogen Peroxide (P) Denatured Alcohol (A) Murphy's Oil Soap (M). Spritz a rag with some PAM. Wipe the Cylinder Face down between stages. Gun will run much smoother.
YES!! Correctamundo!! The key here is proper fitting Balls :D Undersize, out of round, Pee poor balls :D will not be conducive to a truly Harmonious Outcome. If your balls :D fit the chambers properly (slightly oversize balls :o) and your Cylinder Face is clean, your not going to get Chain Fire. It is imperative a small ring of lead be shaved when yer balls are seated ;D How you seat yer balls is very important 8)
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A fellow I know shot a pair of Walkers. He never used lube over the chambers and never suffered chain fires. Same for his pair of Ruger Old Armys.
I tried it once with my Remingtons and had a chain fire and I got a ring of lead. I still lube the chamber mouths. Is it messy? - yes. I use baby wipes to clean the gun and hand cleaner on my hands.
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Simple solution. Load lube/sized EPP-UG or DD-ROA Big Lube®LLC bullets. Charge the chambers with Genuine powder & seat the bullets. Done, presto pronto. Never a chain fire from the exit end of the cylinders. Properly lube/sized bullets should be sized for an interference fit to the chambers. The rebated base of these bullets assures that they sit straight and proud for easy correct seating.
DD-MDA
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We still run the risk of caps being loose or falling off.
If it hasn't happened to you, you started shooting cap & ball yesterday.
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If you have a stage with a reload, load all 6 chambers. Cap 5 at the loading table (that's all you can cap anyway) and at the Buzzard, cap your 6th nipple BEFORE you shoot that pistol. Keeps yer nipple ::) protected.
I'm glad you clarified that. Back when I took my SASS RO class, the rule stated that you could cap the 6th chamber any time before the first or after the last shot.
Our people instantly replied - "Not at our club, you won't!"
The rule change came about shortly thereafter.
If you shoot a five shot revolver- cap the 5th chamber before your FIRST shot.
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HI HO SILVER AWAY (Stolen famous TV Show line)
All of my foregoing Noted Knowledge pertained primarily principally pertinent to Projectiles Projected from Percussion Pistols propelled in principal with .... APP ;D Now say that fast three times ::)
Returning to the question of "Lube" or Grease with yer Balls ;D ;D ;D and or Bullets. I actually don't shoot Ball anymore. Shoot bullets. I found in the .36s, the Beez Kneez to be the EPP UG - 36 as proffered by Dirty Dick Dastardly. Note: Shameless Plug for DDD. In most instances, a .36 Round Ball (Proper soft lead) is kind of "dead" on a steel target and lazy no good for nothing spotters complain they can't, don't or couldn't hear the Balls :P hit the steel. I find that somewhat annoying ??? So with infinite wisdom, I switched to the EPP UG - 36 in my righteous Navys. The EPP UG - 36 Weighs 90Gr as cast and as I shoot APP, I shoot the little suckers "as cast" ;D. They give a nice satisfying 38ish KLANG on the targets.
For the 44s, I have also gravitated to the EPP UG - 45. As proffered by Dirty Dick Dastardly (Another Shameless Plug for DDD) and "as cast" they weigh 150Gr =/- and also give a nice solid KLANG o target. However, I don't shoot them as cast. Too large for Pietta chambers so I run em the Luber/Sizer sans lube. Great bullets.
Now >>>> I also shoot these "Bullets" with Genuine Powder. With Genuine Powder, you have to have lube. The EPP UG Bullets have an enormous lube groove and carry a butt load of lube downa barrel. More than sufficient. In Both calibers. Makes no difference. The .36s and .45s carry plenty of lube. Seated square to the bore of the chamber, no grease over yer Balls (snicker snicker) is necessary.
PJ: YOU did something wrong :o ;)
PS: PJ, today in this century, if you shooting Slixshot nipples and Remington # 10 caps, your not having loose caps nor caps falling off. In the ages between original Colt nipples and caps (tight and water proof) and todays well made after-market nipples and Remington # 10 caps, there were problems with some caps. I'll go out on a limb here, also in those ages past, there were way too many Percussion shooters whom refused to use correct caps. "I have a thousand of "x" caps, so I'll just pinch em, they'll work." You can even get caps to fall off Slixshot nipples. Just buy the wrong cap and be hard headed. ;D
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Simple solution. Load lube/sized EPP-UG or DD-ROA Big Lube®LLC bullets....
DD-MDA
That’s the DD we know and love!
Good to see you nearly back to your old self My Dear Monsieur Dasterdly!
Yhs
Prof marvel
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To ad my $0.02, I never grease/lube independently. If I have them I will often use lubed wads, probably more habit than anything, but I do feel it helps keep the bore running smoother, without having to wipe down. I find using wads, I can shoot about 60 shots, with no noticeable fouling in the barrel. If no wads, I typically run a patch down the 1860 at about 40.
One and only chainfire was poor fitting caps. I saw in the igno-second before my brain told me to stop squeezing the trigger and the actual squeeze that a poor fitting cap had fallen off and it was the next chamber. In the ensuing pant wetting chaos, the correct chamber and two others went. Kudos to Col. Colt, as the gun was none the worse for wear. It surely gave my heart some palpitations to be certain and for sure.
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Like I said - if you haven't had this happen, you started shooting cap & ball yesterday. In this age of enlightenment where we have Slixshot nipples and proper fitting caps, cap & ball guns have become much more reliable.
But - if something can go wrong with a gun during a match, it will be with a cap & ball gun, particularly a Colt "wedgie". Part of their charm.
PJ: YOU did something wrong :o ;)
PS: PJ, today in this century, if you shooting Slixshot nipples and Remington # 10 caps, your not having loose caps nor caps falling off. In the ages between original Colt nipples and caps (tight and water proof) and todays well made after-market nipples and Remington # 10 caps, there were problems with some caps. I'll go out on a limb here, also in those ages past, there were way too many Percussion shooters whom refused to use correct caps. "I have a thousand of "x" caps, so I'll just pinch em, they'll work." You can even get caps to fall off Slixshot nipples. Just buy the wrong cap and be hard headed. ;D
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Well I must say; " Y'all sure have BALLS " !!!!! ;D ;D ;)
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BALLS .. said the Queen. For she hand NONE.
Had I but Two I'd be KING!!
Twouldent that be FUN!!
Burma Shave ;D ;D
Hey!! Lefty!! How ya B??
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http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html
Chance
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ALL,
If your going to shoot Cap Guns (Everybody should shoot Cap Guns .. No??) JeoJohn should be required reading. I don't agree with some of his stuff ..... however ...... His stuff is just SO GOOD!! He dispels many OLD WIVES TALES. Take some time out of your busy days and read his whole thing.
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Read it. Learned a few things. He took a scientific, hands on approach to his findings.
The bit about uncapped nipples not being an issue - I don't think SASS would approve, regardless of his findings.
As for the left over lube over the cylinder face - all it takes is a swipe with a rag or finger and it's gone. You ain't gonna come home with clean paws from shootin' cap & ball no how!
I like the idea of a slight chamfer on the chamber mouths. For one thing, it would lessen the chance of making them oval due to misalignment of the ball rammer over lengthy use. A friend has a pair of stainless Armi San Marco .44 Rems he wants to sell and the chamber mouths are so chamfered.
The idea of using a cut down rifle casing as a funnel has some merit - if you can't pour successfully otherwise. I admit to charging from a brass flask and have never had a problem to date. I trust that the time between firing my last shot and reloading is sufficient for any embers to die out.
You would think if anything is going to create smouldering embers, it would be paper cartridges. However, I've used every kind of paper - newsprint, paper towels, onion skin, etc. for paper cartridges for my '63 Sharps rifles and never had an issue as I blow in the chamber before inserting the next rd. Frequently there is a bit of paper left, usually where the glue was applied.
I has always been told that the idea of the lube was to keep the bore lubed and prevent leading. When shooting cap & ball in a match, I always clean the bores at lunch time. I was surprised to see that the lube only made it half way down the bore of my Rem .44s, dispelling that myth.
One thing I do is use a vent prick to clean the nipples after charging, before capping. This after suffering misfires due to plugged nipples.
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Greasy balls n such ..............
........Just when the dicscussion is gettin deep and meaningful ... along comes Coffinmaker and blast it all away with his humor - how we sposed ta concentrate after that eh!
Weeeel somebody gotta try so heres my take on misfires - some is logic n a little is experience
The rear end chainfire
1) stickin to my guns that the most likely cause (an the most easily fixed) is capped nipples impacting the recoil shield at the back end - if you have not checked yr capgun for safe clearance there - ya better go di it right now .......no use just eyballin the gun at rest either - dont firget the hand can be pushin the cylinder forwards - and - when she fires - that cylinder is going further to the rear than you can push it wid yer thumb ........over time the recoil shield / cylinder on some guns can wear in and reduce what was once safe clearance -- have seen some "clones" that didnt have any recoil ridge at all they just relied on the flats on the ratchet to locate the cylinder - if that is a brass gun an ya shoot it a bit those flats will burr into the face of the frame an ya loose clearance ---seen that one too ---- sooooo if a capped nipple can make contact (even the slightest touch) wid anythin other than the hammer - ya got a dangerous situation - FIX IT!!
2) crappy fitting caps - I bet most of us done that at some point - cap falls off nipple? this is a lot harder to achieve on my gunz than ya might imagine - it hasta happen as the cylinder rotates past the laoding port or the stock cutout notch on an 1860 army - if ya have the problem eluded to in 1) above then some fitting is needed to fix that -- no big deal shortening nipples a bit - I have a dremel wid a lil chuck on it - use it like a mini lathe to shorten the nipples to safe length - but then the cone may be too fat - so no big deal to spin it again and take the cone down to fit -----WHATEVER IT TAKES --- make the nipple / cap fit nice and give it some safe clearance under recoil ---so the rear end is fixed ?
front end ??
Lotsa dicscussion here - grease - no grease - balls - boolits - onion skin? - chamfers
I like to shoot balls - know nuthin about boolits in a capgun - seems like balls are the problem (balls is always a problem eh)
said in an earlier post I had a misfire once - and it was the only time I didnt use grease up the front so the guys sayin no grease is better are pushin it uphill wid a pointy stick tryin to convince me on that - anyway we need lube up there someplace so we can shoot more than a cylinder ful before we get fouled out . I started off usin waterpump grease - read that in a book someplace - man what a mess!!! pump grease all over the place - paper towells by the bucket load - couldnt hang onto the grip - yeah all that !
eventually common sense prevailed and we graduated to homemade lube - boolit lube like I use in my sharps rifle - 50/50 beeeswax n neatsfoot oil or variations on that theme - I have one brew a little softer for when its cool out n one stiffer brew for summer - use a wooden spatula / tongue depressor to trowell in on or sometimes we use little cookies of it we make cylinder size just squish em in with yr finger (no mess that way see) those cookies are about an eigth inch thick and they live in the fridgerator till we use em.
Heres some fun we had with lube cookies --- Somewhere my partner in crime (son) read this guru said you guys are nuts puttin the grease up front - should use it as a cookie under the ball - sounded like a good plan too - so I am in the workshop tinkering away and he hangs a target on the fence outside ---boom - boom - boom ..........hey dad! quick come look at this..... runs out side ..... mate yr target is onfire ???? yeah lookit this ....boom ....boom ....boom ....... hes shootin tracer rounds outa his 44 army - the lube cookie is stuck to tha ball and on fire - 15 yards of this flaming ball and it sheds the lit cookie onto the paper as it penetrates and sets it alight ....wow ....look what we did ... Didnt work in his walker tho - it had enough boondy to blow the lube cookie into liquid I guess
Wads ? we use lube soaked egg carton (cheep) wads - 2 or 3 of em - in that walker and just a smear of grease over the top - egg carton seemed to work and saved me cutting up a good hat to get felt - walker likes it too - I just drop the sheets of eggcarton in hot lub in a pan and stirr em round until the bubbles stop coming out - then cool em off and punch wads
One pistol had a chamfered cylinder - I liked the way it loaded - no shaved ring but the ball swaged in nice - might do that to the others
In short I believe the million guys tell me I need grease up front some place and ignore the few who say I dont - based mostly on that one misfire when I forgot the grease - coulda been a huge coincidence ??
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People on this forum have told me that my buddy who shot his Walkers and Old Armys with no grease up front was lucky he didn't have chain fires.
Maybe, but he did it for years with nary a problem. Maybe he should buy lottery tickets .....
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Hey Greyhawk :D
Glad to se your properly concerned :o about the care and feeding of yer Balls ::) Greasy or not, if ya don't pay attention to yer Balls it can get to be a real >>>>> Cock Up ::), er problem. Yes it can (Can is metal container fer yer Balls :o)
Unfortunately, there are more than just a few "Old Wives Tails" out there. :o And one must be particularly careful to take care of those Wives Tails 8)
Here is the basis of the problem. Way back inna Wabac (Sherman and the Perfesser), a fella was standing around wid a Cap Gun. Another fella asked him how to shoot that contraption ??? We can just about guess, the fella with the contraption really didn't know how either. Colt didn't provide (a what to do now that it's out of the box book) anymore than Uberti or Pietta do :P So we start the whole ball rolling with the blind leading the blind. Cap Guns were then and are now a learning experience. In many cases, Trial and Error. Whether the way a person gets their guns to work is correct or not, that method becomes "right" and is repeated as gospel. Bunch of time down the road, it gets real blurry, whom said what to whom and was it actually "right." So .... now we have a bunch of information, a goodly portion of which is crap, but has been repeated as gospel so long .. it must be right.
My suggestion is to do as I did when I started shooting Cap Guns. I asked questions of EVER Cap Gun shooter I could find. I asked what they did, and then Why they did that. If they couldn't explain "why" it means they didn't know any more than I did (ignore em). Then I read everything I could find on the subject. Some of that was crap too. Then I went shooting and tried all that I'd learned. Some of it even worked. I've saved and husbanded the things that work. I repeat (Parrot) nothing I hear or read until I do it myself and see if it works.
The bottom line here, Cap Guns are FUN. Much more interesting than Suppository Shooters. Cap Guns make ya really appreciate a good match and treasure a clean match. Let's get out there and SHOOT. If the Snow would just melt!!!
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Hey Coffinmaker
hows we sposed ta keep a straight face wen you keep writin this greasy balls stuff :-[
I dunno - ya got me all disytracted - was gonna write somethin clever too - saved me whole years quota of clever stuff to put in that one line an its gone .....pffffft
So -- I got lucky with my first capgun - a well used ASM 44 (one o the fake 1851 navys the experts like to dump on hereabouts)
I think the feller sold it knew what he was doin - trigger is real nice - innards work good - sights spot on - yeah somebody tuned that thing to shoot. That was my first handgun -- (we got a load of trouble to own a handgun in this country!) - then I got a lil Ruger single six 22 thinking it would work to keep my eye in - I could just go shoot, dump it back in the safe. Funny thing is I have never shot that Ruger as well as the old capgun - try as I might I cant do it.
Later came a 36 pocket model - dont shoot that one that much but its a nice piece and they a pigeon pair in looks - one the mini version of the other and thats pretty cool
Son got a Walker for his first handgun - yeah - why would ya wanna do that ? big ugly thing - but he took it to our local pistol club and under a low tin roof at night, a touch excess cylinder gap, 65 grains of 5FA GOEX, first shot he stops the place!!! (they thought somethin blew up) second shot - they all come to see what it was blew up!!! -----o k this is why ya get a walker!!!
He followed with a 1860 army - looked good needed work - early on it stripped the gears under the barrel where the ratchet loading lever works - beyond my pay grade at the time to replace those little gears so I fabricated a remy/early colt lever that kept the lines of the gun intact - done a lot of work on those two pistols - found out I enjoy that almost as much as shooting them -- so yes to fun for sure - but theres more to it even - satisfaction rates higher than fun I think - take a hundred and fifty year old design - propellant invented in the 13th century - sights that no bullseye shooter would entertain for a minute - non orthopedic grip - put a decent score down with that - very satisfying - whether its a bullseye score or the bang and clang stuff.
The point of my post ??? I forgot..................................
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When you get older the Balls get smaller !!!!
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Let's get out there and SHOOT. If the Snow would just melt!!!
Yeah - knowwhatchamean ..... we got another foot of snow last night giving us a total of about 5' on level ground. More on the mountains and hills.
That's good from the wildfire point of view, but those that live on flood plains and rivers are already anticipating flooding. The lake we live on has risen as much as 8' feet above the norm in the past. Looks like the same may happen this year.
Now I gotta git out there and put the snow plow to work, clearing our 100 yd driveway and the 500 yd gravel road to the paved road. Then I'll bail out the neighbours and the Community Hall for the ladies quilting club.
Gonna be a busy morning.
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PJ: gives meaning to your otherwise meaningless winter. I'm looking forward too to green-up. Was out snowshoeing at the Blackwater today. What a day! Clear blue, five feet of powder, temp just below freezing. Great to see so much moose sign! But looking forward to burning more powder this year...last year's work schedule and wild fire situation left me wanting. Not this year. Getting a new lens in my right eye too real soon.
Back to the thread...I could not be happier with my Deluxe Pietta Navy 51's. I shoot round ball, grease over the mouths of the chambers and a .375 pure lead ball. I replaced my nipples with TOW's brand, and they fit my #11 CCI caps perfectly. I had to grind out the access ports on the frame to get at the nipples with an inline capper but I love the pistols. They shoot to the sights with a full chamber of FFFg GOEX (less ball space), but agree they are anemic. At Rope Burn City two years ago, I lost a whole stage 'cause the 36's couldn't activate a steel first target. I must look into the DDD bullet moulds.
Have enjoyed this thread.
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Well, my winter has been far from "meaningless".
I've done a lot of bullet casting, lots of reloading and I shoot weekly at our indoor range, mostly IDPA. I x-country ski or snowshoe daily, sometimes both. I intend to come out of this winter fitter than I went in as I hope to to a "Dirty Mudder" event come spring.
As I was mounting the snow plow on my Taco today, one of my dogs was raising Cain over something. I went to investigate (with a corn broom in my hand!) and he was nose to nose with Miz moose and her calf. She would advance, the dog would retreat and the game went on until she got bored and stepped into the DEEP snow where the dog could not go.
I've found their beds in the snow all over our property and the surrounding country. They winter on this side of the lake where we have lots of willows.
I spent the morning plowing our driveway and those of several neighbours. One of them is on her own as her husband is now an invalid and has to be taken to the hospital on a regular basis. She has livestock to feed. She pulls hay to them on a plastic sled and refers to me as "her angel in a red truck" for the snow removal I do.
I have the means and the ability to be of service, and it is my pleasure to do so.
Anyhoo - backattheranch - "cap guns" are both a challenge and a joy to shoot, grease, no grease, wads or no wads. You have to work to get them to perform and function through a match, but it sure beats 'pop-gunning".
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AARRAAAAAAGH!! :-\
IT'S SNOWING AGAIN!! At'll teach me to run off at the blabber fingers.
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Yeah, we got some more in the forecast as well. We're running out of space to push it.
Back to what Gabe Law was saying about snowshoeing .....
Some "talk" Mountain Man, others "play" Mountain Man. We get to LIVE Mountain Man! In my case, all I have to do is step out the door and I'm likely to run into a moose. If I cross the lake and go into the big tress, I'm alone, and I mean ALONE. Same applies to the Crown land all around me.
Any time of the year, if you go down, you're on your own. I usually have my dogs with me except when I am hunting. I give my wife a rough idea as to where I'm going, but I often change my mind enroute. We don't have cell service out here so unless someone is a good tracker, I'm on my own.
This has never been a concern as it never occurs to me that anything could go wrong. "Yea, though I walk in the valley of death ....".
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Ho PJ,
We all have to go sometime and passing in surroundings chosen by you is at least better than going in a hospital bed with tubes and needles stuck everywhere.
My bride passed here with me at her side. It's the way she wanted it. So, when I cash my stack I could only hope to go as peacefully.
DD-MDA
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We're a way off topic, but being aware of our mortality is never a mistake.
I've been told that I have a 'death wish' because of some of the things I've done. My response - "What's the worse thing that could happen?" Reply - "You could die." My response - "I can live with that. Why can't you?"
I have friends who have always 'played it safe'. Three are well overweight, one is diabetic (as a result of obesity), two have been involved in bad MV accidents and suffered badly because of obesity, one drinks and smokes despite a history of heart problems, etc. etc.
One of my work mates didn't have a driver's licence as he thought it was too dangerous on the road. One day he was killed waiting for the bus when a vehicle jumped the curb.
Right now I'm as I type this, I'm watching my dogs have a nose to nose with Miz Moose and her calf not 50 yds away. It's snowing lightly and looks like a scene from a Xmas card. They've been having a stand off for the past 45 minutes. She interrupts her feeding on willow twigs every once in awhile to make a feint charge and goes back to feeding.
Right now the moose are standing in the driveway feeding on the willows lining the road. The dogs will not approach them closer than 15-20 yards.
I could put an end to it by walking out and the moose will fade into the forest, but I'm enjoying the scene - life in the Cariboo.
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Just when I didn't think it could get any better - it did!
I went out to draw the dog away from the moose and she charged! I guess she was fed up with being harassed by the dog who was emboldened by my presence.
This is the 2nd time I've had the experience. The first time a few years back, I had my 50-70 carbine in my hands and she turned away 15 yds from me. This time I was bare handed.
She didn't have her head down like the other moose, but knocked me ass over tea kettle. Why she didn't stomp me when I was down, I don't know. The Grace of God yet again in my life? I guess she made her point and that was it.
I've got a sore spot on my left thigh, but no bruising. I think she caught me with her fore leg. It happened in a blur and all I could do was to turn sideways so as not to take the hit face on.
I limped away and carried on walking the dogs. Miz Moose and her calf took the opportunity to make good their escape.
How do I feel about it? Well, that's about as close to death as I've been for a while, but compared to the icy chill of being diagnosed with the "Big C'' eight years ago, it was just an exciting episode. I don't blame the moose for protecting her calf and I don't blame the dog for protecting his territory.
I'm now in a select group of people who can say that they've been charged and knocked down by a moose and lived to tell about it.
Life is good .....
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Chainfires are generally not fatal. They are more dangerous to someone standing beside you. As already said, we face greater risks getting to and from a match than we do at the match. Life is uncertain. Eat dessert first.
The lube in the lube groves of Big Lube®LLC C&B bullets helps seal the chambers better than wads or over ball smears. The lube is held captive between the driving bands and properly lube/sized, the bullets make the chambers water proof from the exit ends. Not only are multiple chamber discharges avoided, but guns thus loaded are more reliable in wet/rainy conditions.
DD-MDA
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DDD speaks the TRUTH. Chain Fire is not a lethal phenomenon. Exciting?? Yes. Surprising?? Yes. Will you need to change yer shorts?? Probably. His remarks about the chamber sealing qualities of "Big Lube" bullets be spot on (Shameless Plug of EPP UG bullets). They do haul a Butt Load ::) of Luby stuff with em down the bore.
I shoot the EPP UG - 36 as Cast. The EPP UG - 45 needs the Luber/Sizer.
Smedley ;D
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I shoot Pietta's in 1851's 44 calibre or 1860's 44 caliber .
All with APP .
No lube .
Round ball.
Slixshot nipples .
Remington #10 caps .
Pushed tight with a Antler .
I load on a Powder inc press.
I wipe down cylinder and pistols after every stage .
Works 100% Every time .
Rooster Ron Wayne
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Personally, I use a home-made wad using the Mike Belivue method and pure fur felt lubricated with a mixture of 50% by weight tallow rendered from beef kidney fat and beeswax.
I tried the little pure lube wad and had it melt in the Texas summer.
12 cylinders loaded and 12 cylinders shot something between a squib and a cough.
The felt wads work just fine because there is no oil to bleed out.
One 36’ piece of that felt will make wads for a lifetime.
At least that is my method.
Bunk
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that is a thirty six INCH piece of felt sorry about that
Bunk
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I personally think the majority of chain fires come from bad fitting caps .
If you cut a good ring of lead when seating the balls I doubt you will ever get a chain fire from the front .
But bad fitting Caps or Caps falling off is more likely to give you the dreaded chain fire .
Rooster Ron Wayne
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Howdy Rooster,
I heartily agree. Most chain fires happen from the REAR of the cylinder. Remember to always use caps that snugly fit the nipples and don't fall off till their chamber is fired. After the chamber is fired many times caps do fall off. But, by then they are not an issue, they only seem to gum up the works so the cylinder won't rotate. Many times this can be cleared and the stage continued. Thus the difficulty of shooting frontiersman gunfighter style. FWIW, I've shot Frontiersman GF with my brace of ROAs. I wouldn't even attempt it with my 1860 open tops. I do, however, usually shoot FCGF with both my open tops and my ROAs with no difficulty.
DD-MDA
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I agree with both Rooster and Dick that most multiple discharges come from the rear. I had an 1860 Cenature that used to scare me to death when I shot it. After a lot of head scratching I finally figured out that the cone of the nipples I had installed were a bit long and when the gun recoiled from firing the rest of the caps fired. Nipples with shorter cones fixed my problem.
Lucky (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l361/decapper/grin_zpsebe960c5.png)
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I agree with both Rooster and Dick that most multiple discharges come from the rear. I had an 1860 Cenature that used to scare me to death when I shot it. After a lot of head scratching I finally figured out that the cone of the nipples I had installed were a bit long and when the gun recoiled from firing the rest of the caps fired. Nipples with shorter cones fixed my problem.
Lucky (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l361/decapper/grin_zpsebe960c5.png)
I proposed that here in a long post about a month ago - must have not yelled it loud enough ::)
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Now .... Just a hot second here Monsieur Dastardly :o
I be a Gunfighter. Been one fer a while. Lots of While. Some Lustrum(s) ago, I fell down the deep dark well of (Gasp) THE DARK SIDE. At the same time I also switched to Percussion. Cap Guns ya know. Then almost immediately discovered ... Snubbies. Cap Gun Snubbies. All the while, was still shooting ... wait for it .... one more second ..... THERE IT IS > > > > GUNFIGHTER. Was shooting Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter before we was legal (Lots of fun then). Shooting Cap Guns.
Was also playing occasionally at Frontiersman and Plainsman. Still shooting Snubbie Cap Guns. Now for the biggie. The Snubbie Cap Guns I shoot, in Frontiersman .. or .. Plainsman .. or .. Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter have all been built on Pietta Open Top 1860s or 1851s. I have never own'd a pair or even one of those strange modern Ruger Old Armies. Silly, big clunky looking things anyway. Always shot Colt Pattern 1860s, 1851s, never never .44 1851s and even 1861s. Never Rugers. SO:
How come you have an aversion to shooting Frontiersman with yer 1860s, yet you will shoot Gunfighter with yer 1860s. Unless of course, your 1860s haven't been modified to run flawlessly like a cartridge gun. Like Mine. ;D What be up wid dat???
Smedley
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Now .... Just a hot second here Monsieur Dastardly :o
I be a Gunfighter. Been one fer a while. Lots of While. Some Lustrum(s) ago, I fell down the deep dark well of (Gasp) THE DARK SIDE. At the same time I also switched to Percussion. Cap Guns ya know. Then almost immediately discovered ... Snubbies. Cap Gun Snubbies. All the while, was still shooting ... wait for it .... one more second ..... THERE IT IS > > > > GUNFIGHTER. Was shooting Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter before we was legal (Lots of fun then). Shooting Cap Guns.
Was also playing occasionally at Frontiersman and Plainsman. Still shooting Snubbie Cap Guns. Now for the biggie. The Snubbie Cap Guns I shoot, in Frontiersman .. or .. Plainsman .. or .. Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter have all been built on Pietta Open Top 1860s or 1851s. I have never own'd a pair or even one of those strange modern Ruger Old Armies. Silly, big clunky looking things anyway. Always shot Colt Pattern 1860s, 1851s, never never .44 1851s and even 1861s. Never Rugers. SO:
What took ya so loooooong ? I thought ya musta got laryngityis in ya typin finger!! ;D
How come you have an aversion to shooting Frontiersman with yer 1860s, yet you will shoot Gunfighter with yer 1860s. Unless of course, your 1860s haven't been modified to run flawlessly like a cartridge gun. Like Mine. ;D What be up wid dat???
Smedley
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I have had 4 chainfires in 13 years of Frontiersman. ALL came from the FRONT. To make it even freakyer, in all cases the cap on the fired chamber was in place and intact.
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PLUS ONE to Noz
EXCEPT: I haven't had that many Chain Fire. Just one. Same Same observation. The Chain Fire came from the FRONT of the chamber. ALL (ALL) of the long term Cap Gun shooters I shot with also mirror that same experience/result. Those chambers the followed in the chain retained the unfired Caps, on the nipple.
There are/is a bunch of printed information on the phenomenon well worth reading. Much better than just Parrot.
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Never had a chain fire in all my day's of shooting C&B Revolvers. Started shooting them in the middle 1980's.
Tight Balls, I like Tight Balls !!!!
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Mine were tight, just too hard.
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PLUS ONE to Noz
EXCEPT: I haven't had that many Chain Fire. Just one. Same Same observation. The Chain Fire came from the FRONT of the chamber. ALL (ALL) of the long term Cap Gun shooters I shot with also mirror that same experience/result. Those chambers the followed in the chain retained the unfired Caps, on the nipple.
There are/is a bunch of printed information on the phenomenon well worth reading. Much better than just Parrot.
I also have had one only - from the front I believe - coulda been from the back - its a long time ago - but was the one and only time I forgot the grease over the ball (or a wad under or something designed to stop that from happening) the major lesson was dont be in too big of a hurry - I had just got my itchy palms on my new little toy (pocket colt in 36) first shot seemed kinda loud and more recoil that I expected - came around to shoot number five and its already done it - empty chamber wid crud in it - oooooops
My comments re caps impacting the recoil shield at the back I reckon are valid - and probably behind a lot of chainfire incidents - BUT - on a coffinmaker tuned gun? not a chance!!! That would be careless !! I reckon if you load a capgun without first checking for clearance at the back - then mother nature will attempt to remove you from the gene pool and at some point she may even succeed
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PLUS ONE to Lefty, Noz and Greyhawk.
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I shot this weekend. No lube or wads. Other than a blasted spent cap falling into the works, all went well. I was just off the 2nd place score and might have beaten them if the cap had not occurred, as that target was toast. There were at least 6 other C&B shooters. At James farm that day and nary a chain fire to be had. We had a mix of Remingtons and Colts and a mix of lube, wad and nothing.
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the loading information on the label inside a case set says to fill the chamber half full of powder and seat the ball.
this, I would imagine was a combat or self defense load Oddly enough that is what I use in my .44 1860 with a lube was added for the barrel fouling to continue firing more than six shots. I guess in the old days if six shots did not serve the purpose pull another gun or run.
Bunk
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the loading information on the label inside a case set says to fill the chamber half full of powder and seat the ball.
this, I would imagine was a combat or self defense load Oddly enough that is what I use in my .44 1860 with a lube was added for the barrel fouling to continue firing more than six shots. I guess in the old days if six shots did not serve the purpose pull another gun or run.
Bunk
In my former gunclub, the IPSC/IPDA guru called the second gun a "cowboy mag change"!
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It was not unusual for the old timers to carry 4 or more C&B revolvers, on the person, cantle bag, saddle bags, etc.
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Way Back inna Wabac (Sherman and the Professor), things were done somewhat differently. I always manage to run into some "Thread Counter" whom wants to interrupt my reloading procedure to inform me, our ancestors "didn't reload like that" with an accompanying condescending sneer looking at my Tower of Power. And ..... Thats Entirely True.
OUR ANCESTORS DIDN'T RELOAD AT ALL!!! PLUS ONE to LEFTY DUDE!!
Our Fighting Man ancestors invented Pommel Holsters, Shoulder Holsters and all sorts of methods of toting their pistols. ALL of their pistols. In a fight, there is absolutely NO WAY there is time to reload a Percussion Pistol. Those whom tried .... died. When A pistol ran dry, it was dropped and another pulled out to continue the fight. It was not uncommon for fighting men to have at LEAST 6 pistols handy. If you were on the winning side, you went back and picked up your empty pistols. If you were on the losing side and still alive, you RAN.
Pretty simple, NO?? Oh, and guys on the winning side picked up your empty pistols too :D
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They also perfected accuracy. No 14 or 16 shot splatter-matic, for spray & pray. Each shot was carried out in an accuracy manner of perfection.
I just recalled that recent shoot out scene on TV recently. The Cops shot over 200 rounds, and hit no one !
WOW ! and we pay some of these people to Protect & Serve.
The Police Dept. used to take pride in the training and marksmanship of the officers. Now they just give them splatter-matics, lots of mags. The training now is shoot till you are out of ammunition.
No disrespect to any LEO here who might Protect & Serve. We know you know your stuff, Pards. But Come on, those other Dudes ???
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that is one of the correct things about The Outlaw Josey Wales other than they were cartridge conversions I think.
Bunk
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Been away awhile- seems this is a reoccurring. Good to know ya’ll are here to help.
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Hi ;) I literally signed up for this forum to comment on this particular thread. I been shooting 1858s since 2004 and I have never once had a chain fire. I stopped using lube and wads in 2005, it only took me a year to realize that wad and lube fouls the hell out of the gun. I been using a #11 cap pinched onto a #10 nipple with about 30 or so grains of pyrodex and a .454 round ball for over a decade and I have never ever had a chain fire. The oversized ball ;D is the key, you can't chain fire with a .454 round ball. Many people say using an oversized cap will cause a chain fire but I never found that to be true. I've shot over a thousand rounds with a pinched #11 cap on a #10 nipple and have never had a chain fire. I think sealing the front end of the cylinder with an oversized lead is more important than the size of the cap. If it was, I woulda had chain fires a decade ago. As it stands I've had 15 years of cap and ball shooting without a single chainfire. Also, leaving the wad and lube out of the equation reduces fouling significantly. By an extreme amount. It's worth noting that any added material to the catalytic reaction will add more material fouling. Less is more. All you need is a cap, powder, and an oversized bullet.
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Also, I've carried these guns loaded in every environment from rainforest downpours to desert heat and the 1858 has always been dependable in every condition. Even despite months of neglect the 1858 Remingtons are above and beyond my expectations. They take a lot of abuse and can hold up and still shoot in the dankest of conditions. Simple is better. Just the cap and powder and a .454 roundball is all you need for these guns. They're designed for a rugged life. Don't treat them too softly, they're powerhouses designed for war.
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Dually Noted :o
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:o OK. I'll Bite. ::)
Whom is this .... Really 8) Spoofin be fun :P ;)
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Also, I've carried these guns loaded in every environment from rainforest downpours to desert heat and the 1858 has always been dependable in every condition. Even despite months of neglect the 1858 Remingtons are above and beyond my expectations. They take a lot of abuse and can hold up and still shoot in the dankest of conditions. Simple is better. Just the cap and powder and a .454 roundball is all you need for these guns. They're designed for a rugged life. Don't treat them too softly, they're powerhouses designed for war.
Jesse, is that you?
yhs
prof marvel
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.. carried these guns loaded in every environment from rainforest downpours to desert heat and the 1858 has always been dependable in every condition... above and beyond my expectations. They take a lot of abuse and can hold up and still shoot... designed for a rugged life. Don't treat them too softly, they're powerhouses designed for war.
Couldn't agree more. I additionally switched to paper cartridges with rebated conical bullets, carry my transition-NMA daily. In a Chevy. Beside me on a benchseat. (Kind of old fashioned that way)
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I suppose if your aggressor is a 1900th century antagonist and are armed with a simlar C&B or Bow & arrow ...you are golden.....
However, in the given here and present the likley thug is out to do you dirt .... I'd seek something beyond a pyrodex loaded cap gun.... opinions do vary !
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I suppose if your aggressor is a 1900th century antagonist and are armed with a simlar C&B or Bow & arrow ...you are golden.....
However, in the given here and present the likley thug is out to do you dirt .... I'd seek something beyond a pyrodex loaded cap gun.... opinions do vary !
Ah My Good Major -
opinions may vary , but I agree with yours!
I personally feel that cartridges are for business, and C&B is for fun....
if they made an ultralightweight 10mm with 20 round mags, I would be all over it....
In the Great Southwest, things can be all peachy and lovey then get dicy in a hurry.
many folks further south of the Colorado line actually making a living herding critters to sell for meat.
and there are a LOT of rustlers trying to get that meat for free. In the past , the (formely) dirt cheap SKS rifles were (at the time
under $100!) quite popular and called "Ranch Specials. back then the theft was small-timers.
However in the last 15-20 years rustlers have gone from taking an occasional head to more spectaular efforts.
One bunch made the news by stealing a Ranchers Truck and Cattle Trailer, blowing thru the barbed wire, and heading
out into the prairie to load up his stock!
Fortunately the newsworthy part was that the Rancher and his foreman ( a couple of miles apart) were somehow alerted
(they demurred on "how they were alerted" ) and converged on the foul miscreants with several black rifles, dozens of the dreaded
"hi-cap" magazines, and experience from the Sandbox to back it all up.
The rustlers ran like hell, but it's hard to go far on shot out tires, so they were easy to find when the Sherrif and State patrol showed up.
The State Patrol asked the Rancher if his wife and family were ok, and he replied, why yes, thanks they are gaurding the house and barn
with their Hello Kitty AR's.
I expect that would have made a fine TV show...
yhs
prof marvel
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;D ;D ;D ::) Most rolled off da sofa. Gotta agree. In this day and age, Caliber, Capacity and Reach all have a part to play. Having to face off against a Hi-Cap Rifle wid a Cap Gun would leave me somewhat .... unwilling to participate. Unless the baddie were looking the other way.