Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Doug.38PR on November 23, 2017, 01:09:38 PM
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I just started with Pyrodex about a month ago. Learned that it stinks, its harder to clean but will do what you need it to do.
When loading, as with any black powder sub, i eyeball it by volume as opposed to loading by powder weight like smokeless
I typicall load just under the top rim of the .44-40 or 45 Colt case and drive the 200 or 250 grain bullet in witha good crimp to compact the powder a little. I typically put, more ir less, an average of 25 grains of powder in each case.
In .45 Colt, its a pretty stout load with a lot of noise and recoil in my 4.75 inch New Model Vaquero. Louder and more recoil than 7.5 grains of Unique smokeless
https://americanhandgunner.com/pyrodex-p-powder/
This article however recommends 37.5 grains of powder. (WHAT) and 30 on the low end. From my results (and i have not clocked it yet), that seems a little high. But then maybe 12 grains of pyrodex isnt that much more in volume
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Doug,
First a little CAVEAT: I don't and won't shoot Pyrodex. It's a rusting agent. Another CAVEAT: There are a lot of people out there who write for magazines. The magazine does NOT check their information. Some of those self stated WunderKind don't know half what they think they do and want you to think they do. Take anything they write with a grain of Salt. Maybe 10 grains of Salt.
First step. Try pouring 37.5Gr of your stuff into a 45 Colt case. If it runs over the top and onto your bench, re-think that. For "normal" compression, think: load to the base of the bullet + 1/16 or 1/8th inch and crimp in the crimp groove. If you wish a lighter load, the same load level applies, you will have to "make up" the load level with some form of filler. Cream-0-Wheat is nice.
The ONLY load information I trust .... MINE!! Worked up and tested by ... ME
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Greetingsmy Good Doug and My Dear Coffin
Happy Thanksgiving!
get off the computer and go eat something!
then , doug, get some of the Lee measure scoop thingies. You want to measure BP & Subs by volume. Why?
Because. And Tradition. and, well, tradition. and because it's what they did when they did that back when that was what they did.
now, my specialty - rambling on and on and on ....
The Case Capacity of one flavor of .45 Colt brass is 41.60 gr H2O or 2.696 cm3
over a lustrum and a half ago, our interweb compadres Driftwood Johnson and John Boy were discussing this at length, and posted the below ( elsewhere) , and it is so detailed and eloquent I will repost Driftwood,s details on the matter!
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Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283
Posted December 25, 2010
My point was, how can one generalize the weight of powder that will fit into a case by measuring how much water it will hold, when different brands of powder clearly weigh different amounts?
I have several references in my loading notebook that I have kept over the years as I have used different brands of powders. For instance, my favorite load for both 45 Colt and 44-40 is 2.2CC of powder. When I actually weighed these volumes, I got the following weights:
2.2CC of Elephant FFg weighed 37.5 grains.
2.2CC of Goex FFg weighed 34.5 grains.
2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg weighed 33.5 grains.
Those are actual measurements that I took and recorded.
Likewise this morning I filled a 45 Colt case with Goex FFFg and weighed it. It came to 40.4 grains on average.
I know that I am splitting hairs, and perhaps I should stop doing so, but referring to a table someplace that says that a 45 Colt case will hold 42 grains of powder based on the volume of water completely misses the point that not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. You cannot generalize how much a specific charge of powder weighs by comparing it to a volume of water.
Enough already.......I will attempt to stop harping on this in the future.
I think I just heard sleigh bells and I need to put out a glass of milk and some cookies.
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.
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Also bear in mind that actual weight of BP may vary according to relative humidity and time spent out of the container in that humidity....
soooo ....
If you want to shoot Pyro, and I do on occasion, basing the charge on the advised volume of BP, reducing the charge volume by 10% is often advised. otherwise, just fill up to near the bullet base, seat, crimp, shoot, and clean thoroughly or the perchlorate salt fairies will eat your brass and iron.
Or do what Coffin does and shoot APP ( I have 6 bottles and STILL haven;t tred it yet . boo. hoo. )
yhs
prof marvel
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Responsing to Professor and Coffinmaker
one question first - who was it came up with the idea of measuring blackpowder in grains of volume ????
Thats crazy - it dont take very long with some powder samples and a set of scales to figure out that a volume measure will give you a range of weights in grains --- and after that - go shoot and you soon find out that different powders give a range of velocities for the same volume OR weight measure -- shoot some more and you figure out that some powders seem to like compression more or less than others .......none of which matters much for hitting a two foot square plate at five paces - but all of which are worth paying attention to ifn you shoot bullseye OR ifn you shoot for your dinner on occasion!
I would suggest that the measure system was in place mainly because great uncle harry didnt own a set of scales - his drinkin buddy Mortimus, being a town guy and more scientific probably got the local apothecary shop to weigh a couple of his measure charges (after he worked up his load) so they could figure roughly how many shots he got from a can of powder - once that was done he could relay the info to Harry and they were all set with the latest plan-----I shoot 42 grains of Dupont FFF in my 38 squirrel rifle - man it flattens em .....
I have more interest than some in this - have been making a little of my own powder - the major problem being I just can not get the density of bought powder into mine - that bugged me - no problem in a frontender - but seemed to be in cartridges --- so a volume measure --- is maybe 20% less grains weight ...............what to do??? luckily - (the cavalary to the rescue) - this stuff compressed way more (and easily) than commercial - so by a circuitous route we end up back at the same place - or close and in the process loading got really really really really simple, just line em up, charge full with me powder horn - insert projectile. That gets me right around 36.5 grains WEIGHT in a 44/40 - it gets me about 80 to 100fps over factory original FPS, with nice acceptable shot to shot variation .......so for me ....we measure volume with a volume standard measure usually cubic somethings - Mr LEE has this figured but I cut my own measures from old shell cases - we measure grains weight with a scale of some sort that will tell us grains weight ........and when we say to Joe Blow down the way this measure is sixty grains or whatever - we are disseminating false and misleading information UNLESS we qualify it by adding the powder brand and grade we used - and how we filled the measure - tap it twice - or ten times - or not at all
So if you ask me a load and I tell ya so many grains - ya can put that on the scale and its right -----volumetric grains is using BS lingo
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Greetings my Good Greyhawk
Thanks for your contributions! Your missives are always fun and I look forward to them!
The volume vs weight ( or is it mass? ) fight debacle argument debate is a long and glorious thing, even more heated than the Fjord vs Chebby debate ....
Regarding your own powder, have you made it using a press to make a compressed hard puck and then regrinding?
I have been following the efforts of several successful makers, but have not taken the plunge myself...
YHS
Prof marvel
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Greetings my Good Greyhawk
Thanks for your contributions! Your missives are always fun and I look forward to them!
The volume vs weight ( or is it mass? ) fight debacle argument debate is a long and glorious thing, even more heated than the Fjord vs Chebby debate ....
Regarding your own powder, have you made it using a press to make a compressed hard puck and then regrinding?
I have been following the efforts of several successful makers, but have not taken the plunge myself...
YHS
Yeah doin the press bit (reluctantly) lotsa extra work ! lotsa extra work!!!!made a press frame and use a twenty ton hydraulic jack - lean on that pretty good - bustin up pucks and regrinding with a coffee mill - screening - its slow !!.... makin the pucks is not so bad and they dry well here - have not gained much density wise ? a little but not that much - think its better powder tho - have not done a chrono comparison yet - but every step ahead so far has gained a bit of velocity and consistency - I think willow charcoal maybe a bit of the density difference - it shoots nice tho - cleanest black powder I have shot - it leaves a thin brownish residue - and the boys that have watched me shoot comment the smoke is more browish too. If I was doin this for CAS I would not make pucks, those guys burn a lot more ammo than me, and the muzzleloader powder is quite ok - thats corning ? damp mix and pushed through a piece of window gauze to get the grains - I got that process down pat ...... the clean burn is what really got my attention on this - I havent shot swiss but this is streets ahead of anything else I have shot - cheap too (if ya dont count time :D) materials cost about 2.35 per kilo -- if I drive 60 mile to a shop Wano is $85 - drive 100 mile tother direction Wano is $65 n Swiss about $100 - have not spent hardly any dollars on anything just used stuff I had layin around the place, remnants of farm projects and such............................ dont even think about doin this without a ball mill!!!!
Prof marvel
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Ah Greyhawk ...... Um .... Making yer own powder ...... Well ..
Gentelmen (using the term loosely), I .. Um .. NO!! Any time I think about, or read about, or contemplate, making Black Powder, I remember the News Feed on the Boob Tube when a Fireworks plant had a minor "OOPS" if you will .. and completely disappeared from the face of the Earth. Wiped clean as it twer. Weren't any pieces big enough to even tell what it had been. Some real impressive craters too. Therefore ..... I'll pass. I do desire to keep my tender pink body whole. Also, the only "Puck" I am familiar with is used in a weird game whereby they (the players) have learned to keep score in a fight over said puck, which they try beating into powder with great long sticks also used for beating each other to powder. Think how much more entertaining it would be if "Their" puck were also explosive!! HOWEVER:
I do find the debate over the proper measurement of BP for a "load" to be fun to follow. Personally, I've found trying to quantify a load by weight with a beam scale or other precision instrument to be an exercise in comedy. Way too many variables. I mean, if you don't hold yer tongue just right, consistent goes straight out the window.
I personally load with very high tech equipment. Seeking consistency. After determining an amount of a given propellant (APP) that performed to my desire (BANG followed by KLANG) I then cut down a surplus Nickel Plated 45 ACP cartridge case and attached a handle. Instant scoop for "my" preferred load. Very precise. Same load every time (mostly). Then I made a "depth stop" for my cylinder loader that seated the projectile (Ball) to exactly the top of this load every time. Then, just so I could show some modicum of scientific precision, I weighed "my" "Load" on my Beam Scale. PRESTO!! An amount translated to weight. Except, the next day it didn't weight quite the same. I thought to myself "Self" (call me that a lot) What gives?? Then thought to myself "self" (same self) Why do I care?? Same amount, same result (BANG/KLANG) then completely ignored the weight thing. So ..... how much is "my" preferred "load??" I don't have a clue. It's the amount that fits in my precision Scoop and makes my guns go BANG!!
"Why??" you might ask do I not care precisely how much it is?? Because it doesn't matter at all. With my propellant of choice there is no possibility of loading enough stuff to damage the gun so it simply doesn't matter. If I want repeatability (I do) I just remember to use the same precision scoop. Change the load?? Make a new scoop. Simple. Easy. I do however, need another length of brass rod for making the handles.
My Good Professor Marvel .....
You really must get around to trying some of that carefully hoarded APP. It's fun "stuff" Easy to clean up. Doesn't immediately rust steel nor dissolve brass. Does make lots of lovely smoke. Now, if we just stabilize Nitroglycerine ...........................
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Loading real Gun Powder is slightly different that loading nitro powders.
With nitro powders get a loading manual and follow it like your life depended on it (because it does).
My system was a developed for a cap&ball gun but it should work with a frontier cartridge gun load also.
First, I started with as much FFFg powder the chamber/case would hold to the point that in a cartridge gun the bullet can be seated to SLGHTLY compress the powder so the OAL will allow the cylinder to turn or in a C&B gun the ball is just below the cylinder face. Load a couple and try them. This is the ZOWIE!! Load.
Then continue loading two or three rounds at a time and continually decrease the load in small equal increments until you get the “watch the ball go down range” load.
Somewhere between ZOWIE and the ‘WTBGDR” load you will find the sweet spot that is fun, accurate, and klangy enough to soothe your soul.
The unfortunate part of this system is it requires a lot of shooting but usually a friend can be found that will be glad to help. If not then Cowboy Up and do it yourself.
At least that is what worked for me and now my guns run and work.
And remember that Roger Bacon in the 1200’s wrote
”When the flame of powder toucheth the soul of man it burns exceeding deep”
.
How scorched is your soul?
Yr’ Obt’ Svt’
Bunk
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Ah Greyhawk ...... Um .... Making yer own powder ...... Well ..
Gentelmen (using the term loosely), I .. Um .. NO!! Any time I think about, or read about, or contemplate, making Black Powder, I remember the News Feed on the Boob Tube when a Fireworks plant had a minor "OOPS" if you will .. and completely disappeared from the face of the Earth. Wiped clean as it twer. Weren't any pieces big enough to even tell what it had been. Some real impressive craters too. Therefore ..... I'll pass. I do desire to keep my tender pink body whole. Also, the only "Puck" I am familiar with is used in a weird game whereby they (the players) have learned to keep score in a fight over said puck, which they try beating into powder with great long sticks also used for beating each other to powder. Think how much more entertaining it would be if "Their" puck were also explosive!! HOWEVER:
No sense of adventure have ya!
getting serious for a bit - no not something you can do in the 'burbs -- the ball mill running all night gonna annoy the folk next door somethin fierce - I hung out on a pyro forum for a bit - those guys worry me - half em are kids - they got way toooooo much sense of adventure - and a fourteen year old makin really active stuff in moms basement - no !
as far as the kaboom thing goes - think about this fer a bit - its all about quantity (and level of carelessness) - my argyment is handling black powder is potentially dangerous yes - how seriously so is all about quantity - me makin it in one kilo lots is no more or less dangerous than you opening a same size container of it to fill yr little measure ??? if I do it in the middle of nowhere on my square mile patch and out in the open to boot and you do it in yr basement in town - then I vote you as more of a menace to society (and yrself) than me ......really a can of gasoline fr the lawn mower is at least as dangerous if not more.
I do find the debate over the proper measurement of BP for a "load" to be fun to follow. Personally, I've found trying to quantify a load by weight with a beam scale or other precision instrument to be an exercise in comedy. Way too many variables. I mean, if you don't hold yer tongue just right, consistent goes straight out the window.
That must just be your contrary nature - my scales work fine - dont set em up where the wind can get em - and ya cant do this on Grandmas' kitchen scales - but powder scales work ok - if they didnt we wouldnt have any o them smokeyless shooters left - theyd be all blowed away.
I personally load with very high tech equipment. Seeking consistency. After determining an amount of a given propellant (APP) that performed to my desire (BANG followed by KLANG) I then cut down a surplus Nickel Plated 45 ACP cartridge case and attached a handle. Instant scoop for "my" preferred load. Very precise. Same load every time (mostly). Then I made a "depth stop" for my cylinder loader that seated the projectile (Ball) to exactly the top of this load every time. Then, just so I could show some modicum of scientific precision, I weighed "my" "Load" on my Beam Scale. PRESTO!! An amount translated to weight. Except, the next day it didn't weight quite the same. I thought to myself "Self" (call me that a lot) What gives?? Then thought to myself "self" (same self) Why do I care?? Same amount, same result (BANG/KLANG) then completely ignored the weight thing. So ..... how much is "my" preferred "load??" I don't have a clue. It's the amount that fits in my precision Scoop and makes my guns go BANG!!
Precisely me point (seein we are usin big important words like precise!) I always found it kind of ridickerlous that guys would measure powder in a scoop then say that is x amount of grains (weight) based many times on a mark some guy that dont even speak english scratched on the side of said scoop before it left the factory (lots of fellers not as inventive as you - they give their old brass to the scrap man then pay fer a shiney new measure!)
"Why??" you might ask do I not care precisely how much it is?? Because it doesn't matter at all. With my propellant of choice there is no possibility of loading enough stuff to damage the gun so it simply doesn't matter. If I want repeatability (I do) I just remember to use the same precision scoop. Change the load?? Make a new scoop. Simple. Easy. I do however, need another length of brass rod for making the handles.
That works fer me too - I only get pernickity with long range loads for the sharps - still shooting GOEX in that - needs some serious testing to make the changeover (later that will happen) ...Sneaky thing about the homebrew - because of that aforesaid "problem" with density I can fill a case to the top, compress it down (made a die for a little turret press for that) insert lead and crimp - dont even use a scoop -- can do the same with the sixshooter too - fill chambers - press down with load lever - insert ball and ram - grease someplace of course - good to go - if its a bit much of a load we just switch to FF - makes more noise n smoke n flames out the front - a bit less fuss at the back end - all is good !
My Good Professor Marvel .....
You really must get around to trying some of that carefully hoarded APP. It's fun "stuff" Easy to clean up. Doesn't immediately rust steel nor dissolve brass. Does make lots of lovely smoke. Now, if we just stabilize Nitroglycerine ...........................
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There are those whom have not the slightest idea of just how much fun it is to commune with a bunch of Loons whom are just as Looney as I am. this thread is just too much FUN!!
Does anyone remember what sort of answer the OP as looking for before we drifted this thread to San Diego?? Me neither. However, I oft wonder if those Heathens hell bent on loading those Fad Non-Smoking propellants would benefit from some super-glue on their Beam Scales??? Improving the Species?? Darwin exemplified??
Wait!! I remember (imagine that). We were originally discussing the applicability of recommendations made by one of the oft quoted scribes for a Gun Rag. Horse Puckey. One should work up one's own load. I find it some annoying when those who scribble for a handout find it necessary to recommend loads duplicating Mil Spec.
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Doug,
First a little CAVEAT: I don't and won't shoot Pyrodex. It's a rusting agent. Another CAVEAT: There are a lot of people out there who write for magazines. The magazine does NOT check their information. Some of those self stated WunderKind don't know half what they think they do and want you to think they do. Take anything they write with a grain of Salt. Maybe 10 grains of Salt.
First step. Try pouring 37.5Gr of your stuff into a 45 Colt case. If it runs over the top and onto your bench, re-think that. For "normal" compression, think: load to the base of the bullet + 1/16 or 1/8th inch and crimp in the crimp groove. If you wish a lighter load, the same load level applies, you will have to "make up" the load level with some form of filler. Cream-0-Wheat is nice.
The ONLY load information I trust .... MINE!! Worked up and tested by ... ME
Yeah. I tried it last night. The most i could pour up to the rim was 29.6 grains of pyrodex.
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I have shot very little BP or substitutes, but did some experiments with BP vs Pyrodex P when the latter first came out (before Dan Pawlek was killed in a manufacturing accident!!!) The data supplied was to use 0.80 Pyrodex by weight of fffg BP. In .44-40 Winchester brass with a 213.5 gr. hard cast bullet in a Navy Arms M1860 Henry rifle, produced 1320 ft/sec. I also checked some .45LC loads using Pyrodex P for pressure-time data using an Oehler M43 PBL setup. As I cleaned the guns immediately after each shooting session, I have no data on rusting tendencies.
I shoot neither BP or any substitutes including Pyrodex as I am too danged lazy to clean after each shoot, and get excellent results from smokeless.
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There are those whom have not the slightest idea of just how much fun it is to commune with a bunch of Loons whom are just as Looney as I am. this thread is just too much FUN!!
Does anyone remember what sort of answer the OP as looking for before we drifted this thread to San Diego?? Me neither. However, I oft wonder if those Heathens hell bent on loading those Fad Non-Smoking propellants would benefit from some super-glue on their Beam Scales??? Improving the Species?? Darwin exemplified??
Wait!! I remember (imagine that). We were originally discussing the applicability of recommendations made by one of the oft quoted scribes for a Gun Rag. Horse Puckey. One should work up one's own load. I find it some annoying when those who scribble for a handout find it necessary to recommend loads duplicating Mil Spec.
Coffinmaker
Thanks!
What they also proly dont realise is that in among the looneyness there is some worthwhile information/opinion/observation/ideas passing to and fro ..cant be a bad thing? .... well .....maybe it could if we start takin it all as gospell and quit thinking about how it fits us.
Thread drift ? whats a drifting thread ? I detest straight lines (even that they the shortest track between two points) - city streets are full of em (straight lines and folk with gritted teeth too) - dont see it in nature much - to me a game trail is kind of a thread, it twists thisaway and that, wanders here and there, but it is goin someplace - the critters that use it have picked the easiest / most interesting / rewarding way to go - might take a little longer but they get there.
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Hodgdon website says triple and pyrodex are same volume and cartridge loads call for 30 gr on both .45 colt and .44-40
I dunno. All i can pour into a .45 shell to the rim is 29.6
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf
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Yea Doug. And that'll round yer eyes right out tiffin ya set it off ;D
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Yea Doug. And that'll round yer eyes right out tiffin ya set it off ;D
I bet THEY MEANT VOLUMETRIC GRAINS --- which mythical dragon critter we just THOUGHT we slayed !!!. --- 30 grains of black will go in either case easy ---- in my 44/40 its pretty much spot on a full uncompressed load == powder flush with base of boolit - no squashing involved .... just because a couple of looneys here have figured this out dont stop some goose at Hogdons from messing it up .
So Doug jest for fun get a marked blackpowder measure and set it neat on 30 then weigh the black charge ?? whatya get ? now fill that measure to 30 wid your store bought rusting agent - fits easy in the case huh ?! weighs maybe 22??
Tell us what ya find??
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No....No....NO!!! Absolutely NOT Greyhawk. It absolutely cannot be that simple. We're talking the equivalent of effecting World Peace here. The answer to the confusion simply CANNOT be that simple. I won't stand for it. We haven't even approached 3 pages of discussion yet. There's been no name calling, no shoe pounding, no rattling of Sabers. It's just too simple. Lets face it, we haven't started the trains to the borders, Naval units aren't even considering getting up steam.
Perfesser Marvel hasn't lifted his Airship to prosecute this conflict with his patented Snake Oil Bombs. We're ALL SCREWED!!
Oh the horror. Or Horrors perhaps. Oh the humanity (Stolen famous News Feed Line). To have it all end with a simple handshake and Geshundheight??? No way. Well, maybe. I'm Flumox'ed. It's like Lucy snatching the Football ...........
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I tried to clock it earlier this late afternoon but i guess there wasnt enough daylight left because i kept getting Error 9 on the chronograph and one reading of 111.9 (??).
But what did happen was a neighbor hunting on an adjoining 800 acres nearby instantly called and ask if that was me doing the shooting. Specifically said: “That sounded like something a bit more than a 9mm.”
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No....No....NO!!! Absolutely NOT Greyhawk. It absolutely cannot be that simple. We're talking the equivalent of effecting World Peace here. The answer to the confusion simply CANNOT be that simple. I won't stand for it. We haven't even approached 3 pages of discussion yet. There's been no name calling, no shoe pounding, no rattling of Sabers. It's just too simple. Lets face it, we haven't started the trains to the borders, Naval units aren't even considering getting up steam.
Perfesser Marvel hasn't lifted his Airship to prosecute this conflict with his patented Snake Oil Bombs. We're ALL SCREWED!!
Oh the horror. Or Horrors perhaps. Oh the humanity (Stolen famous News Feed Line). To have it all end with a simple handshake and Geshundheight??? No way. Well, maybe. I'm Flumox'ed. It's like Lucy snatching the Football ...........
aaaaahhhhh humblest aoplogies to ya both ...... just when ya gettin ready fer some fun and some smarty pants rains on tha parade
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The bullets I use for this load are Speer 250 grain lead bullets.
I simply load the pyrodex up just below the rim where the bullet will compress the bullet to some extent.
It appears to shoot just a little low out of my 4.75 inch Vaquero. About two inches below the bullseye.
But, as said, it sure is powerful.
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I bet THEY MEANT VOLUMETRIC GRAINS --- which mythical dragon critter we just THOUGHT we slayed !!!. --- 30 grains of black will go in either case easy ---- in my 44/40 its pretty much spot on a full uncompressed load == powder flush with base of boolit - no squashing involved .... just because a couple of looneys here have figured this out dont stop some goose at Hogdons from messing it up .
So Doug jest for fun get a marked blackpowder measure and set it neat on 30 then weigh the black charge ?? whatya get ? now fill that measure to 30 wid your store bought rusting agent - fits easy in the case huh ?! weighs maybe 22??
Tell us what ya find??
I need to grab a black powder measure in the sporting goods store. Saw one the other day. For now, I just use a brass flask and a reloading scale.
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Interesting thread I picked up on in a search. Apparently, at some point in time, Hodgdon itself was advocating 30.7 gr of Pyrodex in .45 Colt. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,16319.0.html
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Interesting thread I picked up on in a search. Apparently, at some point in time, Hodgdon itself was advocating 30.7 gr of Pyrodex in .45 Colt. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,16319.0.html
Doug ......mate ......
I went to the Hogdon site
a little window in the loading chart says for pyrodex says ""SET YOUR MEASURE on 30 grains"" (or whatever number)
down at the bottom (in red no less) is this - Note : Measure all powder charges by volume not weight
So again this is BS volume grains - there aint no sich thing but that didnt stop em!!!!
A measure set at 30 will go easily in a 45 colt or 44/40 load - is it 30 grains weight ? Pyrodex = no way, real powder = maybe, or maybe its 29, or maybe its 31, ...... so Hogdon is talking Volumetric measure - number 30 on the measure roughly corresponds to 30 grains weight of commercial blackpowder with the normal bulkdensity - whatever that is???
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I need to grab a black powder measure in the sporting goods store. Saw one the other day. For now, I just use a brass flask and a reloading scale.
Many of the adjustable measures are less than accurate.... I think They are intended more for coming up with reproducable loads for ML rifles.
Before you go spending money, let me consult my notes - some standard cases hold well documented amounts, such as the
.45 Colt case holding 40 grs BP by volume +/- a smdigen.
One can make scoops out of cartridge cases and trim them down to fine tune ... or buy the Lee scoops.
I find that The "best bet" for casual shooting is to find an amount that works for you and just write it down and keep using that scoop/measure...
ah here we are:
Cartridge Capaity as scoop, Volume Grains of 3F
.22 LR = 5
.320 ACP = 7
.380 ACP = 10
9mm = 13.3
.40 S&W = 19.3
.38 Special = 23
.45 Auto = 26
.357 Mag = 27
.44 Spl = 34
.44 Rem Mag = 39
.44-40WCF = 40
.45 Colt = 41.6
hope this helps
yhs
prof marvel
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I know this isn't the Pyrodex info you're seeking, but just consider the source . . . ::)
I have switched to using up my Pyrodex exclusively for creating scenes, portraits or decorative patterns on the tops of musical instruments or wood boxes.
Pick a nice, windless day, go outside and spread out some Pyrodex on your flat surface and begin to push it around to create a negative image with an old artist's brush or similar. Either draw freehand or by copying a silhouette.
Then light. I use a butane grill lighter.
Be sure you're not hovering over your creation when you touch it off. (Experience IS the best teacher.)
Lightly buff down the ash and repeat if you want darker shadowing in some areas.
Buff down again and overspray with clear lacquer.
RCJ
p.s Singed facial hair does grow back . . .
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Doug ......mate ......
I went to the Hogdon site
a little window in the loading chart says for pyrodex says ""SET YOUR MEASURE on 30 grains"" (or whatever number)
down at the bottom (in red no less) is this - Note : Measure all powder charges by volume not weight
So again this is BS volume grains - there aint no sich thing but that didnt stop em!!!!
A measure set at 30 will go easily in a 45 colt or 44/40 load - is it 30 grains weight ? Pyrodex = no way, real powder = maybe, or maybe its 29, or maybe its 31, ...... so Hogdon is talking Volumetric measure - number 30 on the measure roughly corresponds to 30 grains weight of commercial blackpowder with the normal bulkdensity - whatever that is???
Is there something wrong if I say: "I'm confused". Like you say, there is no such thing. Why are they estimating volume based on the weight of a completely different compound of powder? That's confusing and dangerous.
"Confused" and "reloading" should never be used in the same sentence, in my mind. But I've been muzzle loading my Pietta Navy .36 for over 15 years now and typically load it up to the rim, as told in the store, pack it down with a wad to prevent "chainfire" and then drive the ball down into the cylinder. Ready to go. This is using Cleanshot and American Pioneer. Pyrodex is another BP sub. Never had a failure or a KABOOM in this way.
To my understanding, for simple plain ordinary layman terms, for cartridge loading, you load the case to the point just above where the base of the bullet is going to be so as to allow a reasonable amount of compression to the powder (sub or black), seat and crimp the bullet and viola, you have a round. You have the proper volume that takes up the case. In this case it amounts to, roughly, 25 grains (weight), of Pyrodex. Is this correct or not?
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Is there something wrong if I say: "I'm confused". Like you say, there is no such thing. Why are they estimating volume based on the weight of a completely different compound of powder? That's confusing and dangerous.
"Confused" and "reloading" should never be used in the same sentence, in my mind. But I've been muzzle loading my Pietta Navy .36 for over 15 years now and typically load it up to the rim, as told in the store, pack it down with a wad to prevent "chainfire" and then drive the ball down into the cylinder. Ready to go. This is using Cleanshot and American Pioneer. Pyrodex is another BP sub. Never had a failure or a KABOOM in this way.
To my understanding, for simple plain ordinary layman terms, for cartridge loading, you load the case to the point just above where the base of the bullet is going to be so as to allow a reasonable amount of compression to the powder (sub or black), seat and crimp the bullet and viola, you have a round. You have the proper volume that takes up the case. In this case it amounts to, roughly, 25 grains (weight), of Pyrodex. Is this correct or not?
What u r doin is fine - how it was supposed to work
Think simple --- think of this as a marketing excercise - they got a new product (1947 or whenever it was invented)
they gotta sell it to guys that dont need it - they haveta displace whatever those guys are already using - blackpowder
So number one they tell this story - it burns cleaner - ya dont haveta clean yr gun soon as ya finish shootin - attractive argument werent it ? we found out later it was a bunch of pony poop - and the stuff is actually more corrosive - yr gun is harder to clean - and its more likely to turn into a rusted out sewer pipe than using blackpowder init .
number two - dont have to change a thing with yr loading - just pour Pyrodex into the same measure you was already usin for blackpowder - simple eh!
So where did grains weight come from ??
more marketing maybe? 25 grains weight of pyrodex does the same velocity as 35 of blackpowder? really proves our new stuff is waybetter than that old fangled stuff you been usin
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Thanks for the assurance. That pryro sure is powerful
Speaking of cleaning pyrodex, i just overdid it. I was cleaning one chamber thatbhad “lead” or pyro residue in it and instead of itgetting darker like the otger chambers, it was getting whiter. Turned out I was taking bluing off tge inside of the chamber. I was using Hopps Powder Solvent and vinegar. So I have one chamber with the front that is kind of grayish white on the inside now. Not a big deal, the rest of the gun has a lot of holster wear and I got it for a knock down drag out outdoor gun.
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The problem is that "grains" can mean weight or volume. There are volumetric powder measures that are marked in "grains". I think if they had from the beginning marked those with "CC's" then there would be less confusion. But they didn't.
Greyhawk, may I make a suggestion? I tend not to read some of your responses on various threads when you reply inside the quote box. It is difficult to tell what you wrote versus what the quoted person says. If you do respond inside the box, if you change your text to a different color and/or bold, it would help a lot. Thanks!
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Ya Greyhawk, Straighten up will ya!! ::) Fly upside down like the rest of us :o
No ..... really ...... it is hard to read. Sorta like translating pyroglyphics into zerbokroaton. Or Something. ;D
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Abilene nailed it -
these days for pistols and ML at least, the convention is to measure BP and subs "by volume".
If we stuck to CC's as the new Lee scoops are measured it would be easier, but hey ....
Doug - just FYI "in general" Pyro has 10-20 % more "oomph" than BP . and Triple 7 has a bit more than that.
And you do not need to use vinegar to clean the pyro residue, just lots of water and maybe some soap.
the perchlorate salts dissolve in water, but not vinegar or chemical solvents. It is important to wash away the salts with
water even before squirting with 10w40 or any oil since the oil can trap the ick and allow it to continue corroding.
I happen to use hot water from the tap because it works fine and doesn't freeze my hands off.
Scrub a dub, brass brush, water, a little soap, patches. Thank Gawd It ain't rocket surgery .
yhs
prof marvel
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10-20%?! Wow. And safe to use in a SAA or clone or Toggle link lever action.
As far as cleaning goes, i guess i get a little overly concerned. All these years of cleaning black subs off my 1851 Navy, putting it tge safe for a few months and taking it out with rust and junk on it even though i thought i cleaned it thorough of Cleanshot
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10-20%?! Wow. And safe to use in a SAA or clone or Toggle link lever action.
As far as cleaning goes, i guess i get a little overly concerned. All these years of cleaning black subs off my 1851 Navy, putting it tge safe for a few months and taking it out with rust and junk on it even though i thought i cleaned it thorough of Cleanshot
Yuppers. totally safe. The entire trick is the "pressure curve" plus "max pressure".
The subs are essentially a "modified gunpowder recipe" that still use charcoal and closely mimick BP's pressure curve.
This is possible since there are no nitro-based components, which make up the bulk of smokeless.
The nitro-based powders ( even or especially the ancient guncotton and other forms of nitrocellulose) conflagrate so rapidly the pressure spike will overstress lesser firearms designs.
so the basic rules with Pyro are
- measure load by volume - same volume as Black Powder.
- since it is less dense than BP you do not need to worry about it.
- clean thoroughly with water ( ie scrub with water, brass brush, patches, more brass brush, more patches.
Soap helps, Vinegar doesn't)
- dry thoroughly well
- apply oil of choice
-check next day with clean patches. clean again if req'd
- do not use any modern fancy solvents - they do not dissolve the perchlorate salts and often just put a layer of oil over them
so the salts can continue toattack the steel from underneath.
now, just for fun, here is the SDS (safety data sheet) for Pyro and 777 - note that 777 includes Dicyaniamide, so don't go wiffing the fumes - on burning that releases cyanide gas....
Pyro:
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/pyrodex-sds-sheet-2017.pdf
Triple-7
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/triple-seven-sds-sheet-2017.pdf
yhs
prof marvel