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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => USFA CSS => Topic started by: PNWx45 on October 29, 2017, 02:59:34 pm



Title: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: PNWx45 on October 29, 2017, 02:59:34 pm
Hi folks,

I found what I believe is a USFA made Uberti parts gun but if indeed this is a USA USFA, I sure don't want to pass it up.

The serial number is 21XXX. The barrel is USFA, not USPFA. The hammer appears to be the cast Uberti type and is definitely not hand checkered. It also features a tapered firing pin.

(https://image.ibb.co/cog1D6/IMG_1535.jpg)(https://image.ibb.co/k2aHmR/IMG_1534.jpg)

The front sight is tapered and appears to have the Uberti profile.

(https://image.ibb.co/iHoEY6/IMG_1538.jpg)

The patent line roll mark is of the 2 line, 2 date type as well.

(https://image.ibb.co/cJ0Tt6/IMG_1537_1.jpg)

Any insights/info from the community would be appreciated to help identify this gun. Thanks!


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on October 29, 2017, 04:25:42 pm
Yep, I too think it is an Italian parts gun.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 29, 2017, 05:43:29 pm
It is a Uberti parts gun.

2 Line/2 dates:   Uberti guns and USFA Ainsworth
(I own two guns that are 2 line/2 date, BP frames, USA guns)
3 Line/3 dates:  US BP guns
2 Line/3 dates:  Cross pin frame and Bisley

On the premium and Prewar guns these are what we have come up with so far.

21213 parts gun
21215 parts gun
21651 parts gun
22113 parts gun
22180 parts gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?

22154 USA gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?
22293 cone USA
22421  cone firing pin
22934 cone USA gun

http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/uberti-or-usfa-or-parts-gun.html


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: PNWx45 on October 29, 2017, 05:58:45 pm
Thanks for the feedback, guys. No doubt this is in fine gun in its own right but my interest isn't in a Uberti parts gun so I'm gonna pass. Appreciate the input.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 29, 2017, 08:08:06 pm
mind sharing the serial number so it can be added to the data base?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on October 29, 2017, 09:36:59 pm
Seems like I have seen some Uberti-parts guns like this recently that have paperwork stating "100% American Made". I think the paperwork is fake because I don't think USFA would put that paperwork in a mixed parts gun.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on October 29, 2017, 09:40:40 pm
yahoody, I have given you the information before but the information you show does not reveal the information I provided.

I have a Henry Nettleton artillery model that is all USA parts and has all the tell tale features used to determine whether or not the firearm is a USA revolver plus I have the shipping invoice as to when the firearm was shipped from the USFA factory and that it was shipped from their latest location. According to Gary Granger only USA parts guns ever left their later location.

It is serial number 47239 and here is a photo pf it.

(https://i.imgur.com/Lbpw50i.jpg)

 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 30, 2017, 12:00:17 am
Thanks Lou.  I have added you photo and the serial number  to the data base.

Your gun is a tough one as the gun preceeding it, HN 47238, is an obvious Uberti parts gun.   They had to change to USA parts at some point.  Just guessing but looks like your gun was the first USA made HN.    I've also been told they didn't follow the serial numbers in any particular order, which is no help.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pPe4aCsD0nM/VUM-cvoOh3I/AAAAAAAAmQg/_dMzXkXoc0M/s1600/art.jpg.)

Quote
...I have seen some Uberti-parts guns like this recently that have paperwork stating "100% American Made". I think the paperwork is fake because I don't think USFA would put that paperwork in a mixed parts gun.

Truth be told USFA and USPFA prior said all sorts of things in their advertising that was blatantly untrue.  The "100% American Made" is just part of that spin until just prior to them closing the doors. .    I suspect the paper work isn't fake, just many of the original claims were.

For a look at one of the original guns and some neat  original paper work this is a nice ad and gun

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/usfa-pistols-revolvers/u-s-patent-fire-arms-mfg-co-type-i-single-action-army-cal-45-colt-7-1-2-inch-barrel.cfm?gun_id=100885089

and another nice gun but hammer and box say Uberti parts gun at best..

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/usfa-pistols-revolvers/usfa-single-action-45lc.cfm?gun_id=100915473


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 30, 2017, 12:14:22 am
This is Hopalong's beautiful USPFA copy of the "Sear's Gun" that is clearly a Uberti and claimed all USA made.   They even featured this particular gun as late as 2007 in the USFA catalog.

(http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo5/TimmyV_2008/sears10026.jpg)

http://web.archive.org/web/20070421033059/http://www.usfirearms.com/pdf/USFA_2007_catalog.pdf


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 30, 2017, 12:22:36 am
Hey Lou, this is a "Custer" gun from late in USFA production.  A 5.5" gun shouldn't even exist with a Custer label and serial number.   I was told and have the paper work to back it up, that Doug Donnelly had this one built specifically for a friend who owned the original Colt same serial number...that USFA duplicated.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E_bzEY70odk/WfDJbIAh2EI/AAAAAAAAsSE/kXCgzQ1Yge03gnBmT5SCdg8KNEhN4sgrACLcBGAs/s1600/DSC01683.JPG)


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: PNWx45 on October 30, 2017, 01:25:22 am
mind sharing the serial number so it can be added to the data base?

The dealer has two on hand with consecutive serial numbers: 21857 and 21858.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 30, 2017, 09:40:34 am
thanks much!


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on October 30, 2017, 11:53:06 am
yahoody, Here is a copy of the packing slip that the original owner of the revolver sent me when I purchased it from him. Notice the USFA address and of course the shipping date. According to Gary Granger only USA parts guns were ever shipped from this address.

(https://i.imgur.com/wfb5uWv.jpg)


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on October 31, 2017, 09:38:20 am
Here's an example of what I was talking about. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/710126261
The ejector rod housing and the hammer look to be Uberti parts. Maybe other parts too, that's just what I noticed right off the bat. Plus the serial number is low for a CC. Yet it has the pamphlet with the picture of the Indian which states 100% American made. These pamphlets were one of the main things I looked for when picture were too fuzzy or you could not see a serial number. It would be sad if these pamphlets are being faked.

PS I am in no way implying the seller faked any paperwork. If it is indeed faked it could have been done by anyone along the way that owned the gun before the seller got it.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 31, 2017, 10:34:48 am
Nice CC.  But like 99.9% of them, they were built on mostly Uberti parts.  USFA and USPFA before them made all sorts of claims that were flatly untrue.  "100% American Made" likely the most egregious I think.  And done intentionally IMO.   Best way to buy any gun is buy the gun not the story.  With USFA even more so.

I can tell you this on that particular gun...box, sleeve and paper work are original to the gun.  China Camp guns of that era came with a one piece box and generally a test target.   Gotta wonder where the test target went.   If there ever was one.  I have two that did not come with targets and were not sighted in.  Being a .45 no reason not to sight this one in, as a CC gun was claimed to be made. The white cotton gun sack is original as well.

Uberti parts?  As mentioned previous CC guns the over whelming vast majority of them are Uberti parts guns.  Gary Granger said they  made US CC guns.  But in searching I have yet to even see on in the past 10 to 12 years.

Here are some great tips on Uberti guns from USFA and USPFA..

very early 1 piece box and blue unmarked end label..generally holding a Uberti.  Only in 45 cal an only  4 3/4" no matter what gun was inside..

I also have much later CC guns that never hand an end label on the box or test targets.

white cheese cloth gun bag...Uberti.  Nice this one even has a matching serial

and as you mentioned the Uberti cast hammer..

Bottom line?  I have  a few extra copies of the USFA paper work and boxes just from my own collecting.  Others do as well.
In 5 years time these guns have doubled and tripled in value.  Buy the gun, not the story or the paper work :) 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on October 31, 2017, 09:01:11 pm
"Buy the gun, not the story or the paper work"
Good advice. I've seen it the other way around too. An old style box that held a USA made nickel 4" Sherriff's model. In this case somebody just got their boxes mixed up because the serial number on the box did not match the serial number on the gun. I would've bought it if I'd had the money but somebody got a good deal.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Dave T on November 09, 2017, 06:14:38 pm
I've been reading this thread with interest as I recently acquired a used but fully functional Nettleton 5-1/2". I studied the photos posted with the ad for this one carefully and was fairly confident about the "all US" features. The gun I received is the spitting image of Lou's gun except my shows more use like aturn line on the cylinder. As for its bonifieds, it has the wide and rounded cylinder flutes, nice "S" curve to the hammer with a cone FP, and the straight back front sight I understand are features of the US made guns. I had every intention of posting a picture or two but my Photobucket account seems to have pooped itself today. Can't up load pictures from my computer for some reason.

Anyway I thought I would at least tell you all about another one of these and give you the number for who ever is keep the data base I heard mentioned. My gun is HN 47241.

If I can ever get Photobucket working again I'll post a few pictures.

Dave


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Dave T on November 09, 2017, 09:51:15 pm
Took most of the afternoon fighting with Photobucket but here's some photos:

(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/Old%20West/85692d26-769a-4eae-ac75-9295edf4334c.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/desertarcher/media/Old%20West/85692d26-769a-4eae-ac75-9295edf4334c.jpg.html)

(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/Old%20West/63fc8b44-1800-423e-a9ab-16019e925f4d.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/desertarcher/media/Old%20West/63fc8b44-1800-423e-a9ab-16019e925f4d.jpg.html)

(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/Old%20West/53d46084-e274-44b5-a99c-915ba57aeaa5.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/desertarcher/media/Old%20West/53d46084-e274-44b5-a99c-915ba57aeaa5.jpg.html)

Now I can only hope these come out!

Dave


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on November 10, 2017, 12:20:09 am
Nice guns guys!  Dave thanks for another number to be added to the list.  FWIW I do believe the USA made HN guns in a 5.5" version are rather rare.
 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: GaryG on November 11, 2017, 09:41:23 pm
There was a dealer in Oregon that figured out that if he wanted a Pre War (CC/AB) with one piece wood, it was cheaper to by a HN.  Having said that, there some consecutive pairs of Pre Wars out there in other than 45 Colt.  They date back to 2004/2005 and are all US.

There are also some Inspector Series (HN, Aimsworth, etc) with intentionally mismatched numbers on the various parts.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: GaryG on November 11, 2017, 09:49:57 pm
 Should have said there are consecutive pairs of HNs out there in other than 45 Colt


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: markg44 on January 22, 2018, 10:31:40 am
I looked at HN 47247 at a show yesterday , Uberti hammer barrel looked USA cylinder looked USA, case colors seemed a little dull, although it appeared to be unfired.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on January 22, 2018, 09:46:37 pm
markg44, how much were they asking for it and did the hammer have a hammer block safety? Just curious.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: markg44 on January 23, 2018, 08:43:26 am
LP,  no hammer block, offered it to me for $1800 cash.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on January 23, 2018, 10:23:22 am
For $1,800 one could get an all USA standard Single Action. Hard to say but I'd probably pass. Would the hand, trigger and springs have been USA?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: markg44 on January 23, 2018, 11:11:15 am
Don't know if the internals were usa or not. The dealer thought it to be all usa ,I didn't bother to argue the point, I wasn't going to buy it anyway. The prices on these are crazy. Although we don't see many USFA in my area.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: tabs on July 22, 2018, 12:40:48 am
This is my first post on this Board, and I just had to make comment on this Thread about USFA's. I have been collecting a wide variety of this kind of stuff since late 1979. Out at the Shot Show in Vegas I stopped by to talk to the USFA crew I believe in 06 where they took some pictures of myself which even showed up on their website. At one time I owned an original Bisley Flattop that had been expertly restored, but I sold it in 08 partially thinking I wanted to shoot one and a USFA Bislley FT would be a better choice. Later I sold a no finish original Bisley and was going to use the money for the USFA. Imagine my surprised chagrin when I went looking for USFA, only to find they were in business no more (I even called Turnibill). Since then while not a top priority I have seen only one USFA Flattop Bisley and that was a long time ago at Amoskeag where my bid through Proxibid failed to register and the hammer dropped, sold to someone else. That did not make me happy and Jason Devine got ear full of unhappiness. A Bisley FT has remained on my bucket list and as such I saw a USFA FT SA in 45 go at Cordiers (along with a bunch of others, all selling at the same price as the SA FT) in late June of 18. I was the under bidder on that one as there is a line in the sand on stuff and that a Uberti Bisley FT in the box was on the Retta Pass auction list for July of 18. So I am the proud owner of a Uberti FT Bisley in 45 LC. I felt it was time to pony up to the table and fulfill a Bucket list want so I stepped up to the plate and went for it for better or worse, (as those Bisley FT's are not made by Uberti nor anyone else at the moment and God only knows when another one will show up?).

Now to be a little more on topic about Uberti made parts in USFA's and the ambiguity in determining all American made ones. While I really liked the quality of the USFA guns and thought I might like to acquire a couple of them.  After reading this Thread I have to say why bother trying to digest all of that information that only an advanced collector is going to become knowledgeable enough to separate the American from the Italian? If pricing is based upon that determination, it becomes a real big liability in having to learn all that stuff and possibly making a costly mistake. One suspects that sooner or later it will not really matter as a USFA will be a USFA. However my thinking after reading this Thread is why chase that rabbit down the hole, there are far better alternatives in the same price range as the USFA. Namely bonafide Colt SA 3rd Generations or even 2nd gens, you have a lot less hassle to contend with.  Then there is having a gussied up Uberti for a steep price when you can have the plain Jane Uberti for a lower price. So unless you want the specialty of an original style FT SA or Bisley why bother?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on July 22, 2018, 01:09:53 am
Quote from: tabs
......... One suspects that sooner or later it will not really matter as a USFA will be a USFA. …….. Namely bonafide Colt SA 3rd Generations or even 2nd gens, you have a lot less hassle to contend with. …...

If you don't know or want to take the time to find out the differences between a Uberti and a USFA USA made gun  might as well buy anything you want.  Good luck to you.  Some  it will make a difference to, others it won't.

Same issue with third Gen Colts.  Some are OK, others are better.  2nds are generally a safe bet.  But still not as good  as the later  USFA guns in some folks opinion.  USA made UsFA are the cream of the crop..Colt included there.

More recently the  current Uberti guns by any importer are dang nice guns.  One thing guaranteed...nothing ever stays the same.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on July 22, 2018, 11:26:51 am
A 100% American made USFA's will always be more valuable than an Italian or mixed Italian/American USFA of the same model. The differences are too important and too many people know about them for them to ever be viewed as equal in value to an informed collector. I admit it can be confusing because USFA had so many different models and serial number ranges. It's hard to go wrong with a recent production Uberti, they are very good guns for the price.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Dave T on July 22, 2018, 01:33:33 pm
You said the quality of a USFA gun is no better than a 3rd Gen Colt. When talking about the late production USFAs with all US parts that is not true. Not even for the 2nd Generation. On that breed of USFA the fit and finish is on par with the 1st Generation Colt, the standard by which all things single action are judged.

Over on the Colt Forum a stunning 1913 1st Gen Colt was pictured and the asking price was over $16,000. Getting that kind of quality in a USFA for even $2000 is a bargain to someone who appreciates it. If you don't...order Italian take out.

Dave


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Coffinmaker on July 22, 2018, 03:43:10 pm

I should probably leave this one alone, but I just can't help myself.  There is absolutely NO 1st gen Colt worth 16 Grand.  That is what is commonly called INSANE money for a lump of steel.  Not even if there was provenance it was owned by some incredibly renowned period Hero.  Of course, this is only my personal opinion.  It is also my personal opinion current USFA prices are artificially inflated by mindless "Collectors" who absolutely "must" have something.  We hear all the time .... buy a Colt.  Own a piece of History.  Horse Puckey.  Unless, again owned by some incredible famous individual, all it is ... just another Colt.  If it's a 3rd generation, it's also a Replicant.  There is nothing about a USFA that elevates it to "must be worship'd status."  It's just another Single Action.  Same same recent manufacture Colt.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on July 22, 2018, 03:58:23 pm
I agree with much of what you have said Coffinmaker, but not all.   ;D



Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: tabs on July 22, 2018, 04:22:38 pm
The question becomes would a single Italian part effect the value of an otherwise all American parts gun? The apparent answer that I gather from this Thread is yes it would. Since it seems that there was no rhyme nor reason as to the mixing and matching of parts you would have to be knowledgeable about the differences in each of the parts and each gun would have to be individually evaluated. You might say USFA had no standard mfg process upon which to hang your hat. The complexity of the detail required to be knowledgeable about what you are doing is going to preclude a lot of people from being willing to pop a bunch of money for something because they just don't know. To a price point yes, after that no. The USFA's fall into being a niche market. In that the better alternative for the amount of detail and time required to be knowledgeable about USFA's would be better spent on learning about let's say for example Colt 1911's or First gen SA's. They have a broader appeal in the market place and thus a better price structure. Those are the realistic limitations on collecting USFA's, however if you love them and think they are the cat's meow it does not matter.

I think the quality of the USFA's regardless is outstanding, and I will still be keeping my eyes open for a Bisley FT, but I just won't be holding my breath anymore. Virtually nothing made post WW2 has the same quality as the pre WW2 stuff (that is the understatement of the day). Again the pre WW1 stuff is even better than post WW1, except perhaps in the metallurgy. The USFA's fall broadly into the semi custom maker kind of stuff where the detail of fit and finish was was paid attention to. The Uberti's are nice, but they are not up to the same snuff and they are a cheaper bang for the buck. They fill a void.  

BTW I have a first gen 1913 SA Frontier Six Shooter that is in very nice condition of having almost all of it's bluing intact.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: tabs on July 22, 2018, 05:11:50 pm
I should probably leave this one alone, but I just can't help myself.  There is absolutely NO 1st gen Colt worth 16 Grand.  That is what is commonly called INSANE money for a lump of steel.  Not even if there was provenance it was owned by some incredibly renowned period Hero.  Of course, this is only my personal opinion.  It is also my personal opinion current USFA prices are artificially inflated by mindless "Collectors" who absolutely "must" have something.  We hear all the time .... buy a Colt.  Own a piece of History.  Horse Puckey.  Unless, again owned by some incredible famous individual, all it is ... just another Colt.  If it's a 3rd generation, it's also a Replicant.  There is nothing about a USFA that elevates it to "must be worship'd status."  It's just another Single Action.  Same same recent manufacture Colt.

Now the door has been opened. The price escalation in recent years is due to too many dollars chasing too few really primo pieces. Why is that? In 1998 the Wall Street Journal published an article that said that antiques guns were a bonfide collectible on the par with art, coins, classic cars etc. Since then the price of collectible guns have never looked back, even in the midst of the crisis in 08 when the DOW was down by 1000 points that day, a Walker Colt sold at Julia's auction house for $975,000.00.

The question becomes why the healthy price appreciation in collectible guns in the midst of economic turmoil. The liquidity created with the FED's printing of money and government's debt creation has to go somewhere. Secondly with the uncertainty in  the economic future of the USD and the USA being insolvent people would rather have hard assets than cash as a hedge. That is the short answer.

I have been watching gun auctions across the country for nearly 30 years. You can expect more of the same going forward, for as long as the FED maintains credibility on Wall Street etall, with corporations and foreign USD holders (which means everybody). You might say as it turns out that guns are as good as gold...even better right now as they have a better ROI.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on July 22, 2018, 05:13:34 pm
hhahahahaha..

One has to wonder if USFA ever built a all USA made Bisley.  My guess is they didn't.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on July 24, 2018, 02:01:50 am
 Yahoody, did you see the Bisley's that were in the big USFA aution on gunbroker by Diamond Firearms a few months ago? Serial #24777 is a Bisley .45 Colt 7 1/2" full nickel with black rubber grips. I can't say whether or not it's 100% USA but it is within the USA serial number range of over 23000* and it has a USA pattern front sight, USA patter ejector housing, USA pattern cylinder flutes and a USA pattern hand checkered hammer. The rear sight notch is wide, like the USA SAA's and the fit and finish looks impeccable.

There was also serial #26969 a gorgeous custom Bisley Flattop Target .45 Colt 5 1/2" dome blue/color case with fire blue appiontments and custom two piece wood grips. It has all the same USA features as the above, except the sights of course are different on a Flattop. The front sight blade is not the same design as the Uberti and front sight base is welded or soldered on, as opposed to the dovetailed Uberti Flattop.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: tabs on July 28, 2018, 01:34:56 pm
hhahahahaha..

One has to wonder if USFA ever built a all USA made Bisley.  My guess is they didn't.

I mean the USFA guns are beautiful whether they are Italian or USA. They are worth having. What I have wanted from USFA is the Bisley Flat Top, but if they are gussied up Italian are they worth a premium over the Uberti? I would say if that is the case why bother trying to hunt one down, the Uberti Flat Top is hard enough to find. It seems that no one is making them anymore. In the case of the standard Bisley the USFA evaluations are approaching that of very clean originals, so for a few dollars more why not buy an original.

From what is said here USFA made a number of the parts themselves or probably did? The question here is, are the Frames and Back straps Italian and the a sundry parts American? Any way you want to slice it the problem with USFA is that if a line is drawn in the sand over all American and or part Italian as to valuation there is no clear delineation that one can hang their hat upon.  Everything has to be evaluated upon it's own merits and then there are even questions about that. This fact make one very hesitant to step up to the plate and pay a premium.

I know a lot of people in the gun biz having dealt with them over the years. Few of them know very much of anything let alone the specifics of a USFA. All you have to do to figure that out is read the descriptions on Gun Broker etc, or read through auctions descriptions etc (I once had a discussion with Fijestde of Blue Book , where he didn't know his stuff). There are guys who are very knowledgeable about a specific range of things, but outside of that range their knowledge falls off. 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on July 28, 2018, 02:09:26 pm
Real problem with USFA and USPFA prior is they never told the truth from day one.  Now it is easy to document what guns are parts guns prior to USFA making at least a majority of the parts as they claimed.

This info has been documented for several years (basically since USFA shut down and any of us started to care)  and continues to be added to.

http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/uberti-or-usfa-or-parts-gun.html

The SAA version from USFA can be documented as USA built or Italian parts by serial number these days and have been for a while now.

But as you'll notice no Specific Bisley info posted there.  Serial numbers may not tell the entire story on a Bisley.  Only that the majority of the parts are USA made.  What makes a Bisley is a Bisley specific hammer (not aware USFA ever made any) the main spring and of course the backstrap, trigger guard and grips.   And the mating surface on the frame to back strap.   Everything else is a SAA part.  Easy enough to cut off and recut by hand the checkering on a hammer.   I'd also want to see the firing pin on any Bisley.  But also easy enough to replace either way.  Makes no sense to make the back strap and trigger guard when they were so easy to source from Uberti.   Knowing USFA was never up front on  where their parts came from I'd bet there are no actual USA made Bisleys no matter the claim.

Uberti has been making the SAA and Bisley Flat top guns for years.  Seems no one noticed until USFA  made a few.   Either way the USA made USFA SAA guns are easy enough to figure out and worth the premium compared to a Uberti parts gun.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Chance on July 28, 2018, 03:16:38 pm
hhahahahaha..

One has to wonder if USFA ever built a all USA made Bisley.  My guess is they didn't.

I guess it comes down to what your definition of "made" is. Does it mean manufactured or assembled?

Chance


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on July 28, 2018, 09:36:34 pm
Did Uberti ever build a Bisley hammer that did not have the hammer block safety? To my knowledge Uberti never built a "no-safety" Bisley hammer. VTI Gunparts does not list a Uberti Bisley "no-safety" hammer, at least not that I could find. Of the two USFA Bisley's that I described above, the Flattop Bisley definitely has a "no-safety" hammer. The nickel one I can't say because the pictures don't show the back of the hammer.


Another thing about Bisley hammers. On all the Uberti Bisley's I have seen there is no significant contour to the back of the hammer. Same goes for the early USFA Bisley's that clearly use Italian parts. On several late model USFA Bisley's the back of the hammer is contoured to follow the lines of the recoil shields, just like original Colt's.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on July 28, 2018, 10:16:24 pm
Quote
Did Uberti ever build a Bisley hammer that did not have the hammer block safety

You realize that a blank hammer has to be milled and fitted with the safety right?   How one mills the cast part and hand finishes it  is up to the builder.   One can guess at what USFA did for the Bisley. 
Your guess is as good as mine.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Coffinmaker on July 30, 2018, 12:14:52 pm

Well .... actually ..... a Replicant, with or without Lipstick, is still a Replicant.  Taking issue with were the parts came from at this point in time is Oxymoron.  It simply doesn't matter, unless one is a Rabid Collector of inanimate objects to stick up on some shelf and genuflect.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on July 30, 2018, 12:50:43 pm
Don't know about the past Uberti Bisley, but I recently purchased a new Uberti Bisley and it does not have a hammer block safety.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on July 30, 2018, 01:37:17 pm
Buckaroo Lou, where did you purchase this Uberti Bisley? What is the datecode? Does it have any other type of safety? What caliber and barrel length? I would be very interested in a Uberti Bisley .44-40 with 4 3/4" barrel if the only safety device it had was the two-position cylinder pin. Really would like a .32-20 like that but I am fairly certain they don't make them in .32-20.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: The Pathfinder on July 30, 2018, 01:56:28 pm
OK, just checked my Navy Arms Uberti Bisley 44-40 4 3/4", date code BS (2002) and it has both the two position pin and the hammer block safety. So Lou's has to be newer than that.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on July 30, 2018, 03:31:51 pm
LonesomePigeon, Is the date code the two letters in the square stamped just above the serial number on the frame? If so it is CT. It does have the two position pin but does not have the little anvil on the hammer that I assume is the hammer block safety. I bought it online on GB about two weeks ago.

It is a 4 3/4" barrel in .357 caliber. I know .357 is not original but I have other single actions in .45 colt and I just wanted something different. Besides I can also shoot .38 special if I want to.

Here is a photo of the revolver. I have since removed the grips and hand rubbed the gloss finish with 0000 steel wool to remove the glossy look. I prefer a duller satin look to the grips instead of the gloss.

 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on July 30, 2018, 03:45:14 pm
Parts only matter if the price is appropriate for the gun.  Wrong parts and the value isn't there on the USFA guns....from my perspective.

Hammers and triggers are easily had and easier to replace.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on July 30, 2018, 06:45:49 pm
BuckarooLou, yes that is the datecode. CT would mean it was made in 2018. The anvil thingy you described would be the hammer block safety. I am glad there exists ones without it. One more question, does yours have a Cimarron barrel address and/or does the grip medallion say Cimarron? Since I just put a Pedersoli Lightning rifle on Lay-a-way at Dixie it might be awhile bit I think my next purchase might be a Uberti Bisley.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on July 30, 2018, 07:25:41 pm
LonesomePigeon, Yes it has the Cimarron barrel address and the grip medallions have the Cimarron logo.

Can you tell me where you acquire the information with regard to the date code. In other words can you give me a website that has the date codes and corresponding dates?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on July 30, 2018, 07:40:18 pm

date codes

https://gun-data.com/italiandatecodes2_arms.html


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on July 30, 2018, 10:25:16 pm
Let's see if this works:

Italian date stamps
Note! The stamp is not a part in the serial numbers, and it is normally found on the monoblock or demi/mono-block.
Year    Mark    Year    Mark    Year    Mark    Year    Mark    Year    Mark    Year    Mark    Year    Mark
1940       1953    IX    1966    XXII    1979    AE   1992    BB   2005   BZ   2018   CT
1941       1954   X    1967   XXIII    1980    AF   1993    BC   2006    CA   2019   CU
1942       1955    XI    1968   XXIV   1981    AH   1994    BD   2007   CB   2020   CZ
1943       1956    XII    1969   XXV   1982    AI   1995    BF   2008   CC   2021   DA
1944       1957    XIII    1970   XXVI   1983    AL    1996    BD    2009    CD   2022    DB
1945    I    1958    XIV    1971   XXVII   1984    AM   1997    BI   2010    CF   2023    DC
1946    II    1959    XV    1972   XXVIII   1985    AN   1998    BL   2011   CH   2024   DD
1947    III    1960    XVI   1973   XXIX   1986    AP   1999   BM   2012   CI   2025   DE
1948    IV    1961    XVII   1974   XXX   1987   AS    2000    BN   2013   CL   2026    DF
1949   V    1962    XVIII   1975   AA   1988   AT   2001   BP   2014   CM   2027   DH
1950    VI    1963    XIX   1976   AB   1989    AU   2002   BS    2015    CN   2028   DI
1951   VII    1964   XX   1977   AC   1990   AZ   2003   BT   2016   CP   2029   DL
1952    VIII    1965    XXI   1978   AD   1991   BA   2004   BU   2017   CS   2030   DM


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on July 30, 2018, 10:34:44 pm
Thanks to both yahoody and LonsomePigeon for the reply and providing the lists. I appreciate your willingness to help educate this novice.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Major 2 on July 31, 2018, 05:19:15 am
It is also posted as Sticky  on both the OT & Henry BB's


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: tabs on August 08, 2018, 03:07:17 pm
I guess it comes down to what your definition of "made" is. Does it mean manufactured or assembled?

Chance

Now I am going way off topic, with the global economy who is to say what is made where? Check under the hood of your car lately to see where parts are sourced from? The venerable American shoe mfg Allen Edmonds has a plant in the Dominican Republic where the Soles and Uppers are cut and the finish work is in the USA..yet they are marked American made. The same is true with a lot of Italian clothing and shoe mfg's, cut in China and assembled in Italy with the made in Italy tag put on... Soooo?

It does seem odd that Uberti etal can produce such a nice firearm for around $500, especially with the EU tax structure of VAT and EU labour costs?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on August 27, 2018, 06:50:03 pm
Hey guys need some help, got a gunslinger in 44 spl serial number 2085B. Any one know if that's in the range for uberti parts?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on August 27, 2018, 08:14:10 pm
I thought all Gunslinger's were 5 digit serial number in the 50,000+ range?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on August 28, 2018, 12:25:02 am
Quote from: m.mac
Hey guys need some help, got a gunslinger in 44 spl serial number 2085B. Any one know if that's in the range for uberti parts?

LP you were close.  57K range not 50K
Pretty much can tell you 2085 is NOT a Gunslinger.  I'd bet a early Uberti but I'd need detailed photos  to tell any thing more.

Does your barrel say USFA or USPFA?
Hand checkered hammer, cone firing pin?
Front sight profile?

USFA Gunslinger Model starts with serial #57XXX
Only other option is a custom Serial number.  Barrel would have to read USFA to  be that and I'd want a box label to verify it.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on August 28, 2018, 02:15:19 am
It has the one line barrel address framed by crosses says USFA, cone shaped firing pin and hand checkered hammer. Its currently at my brother's, once I get pics I'll post em


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on August 28, 2018, 02:22:37 am
Same as this for the barrel address



Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on August 28, 2018, 11:36:47 am
Sure looks and from your comments sounds like a USA made gun.  I'd suspect a custom Serial number.  5.5" or 7.5"?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on August 29, 2018, 02:13:01 am
It's a 7.5 inch model, also came with two sets of truivory aged grips, second one was of the extended target style that passes past the frame. Got it back in 2010 for $1100.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on August 29, 2018, 10:44:32 am
It's a 7.5 inch model, also came with two sets of truivory aged grips, second one was of the extended target style that passes past the frame. Got it back in 2010 for $1100.

Sounds like a very special gun, Congrads!  I've never seen one that came with the extended grip outside the catalog.  That and True ivory is  real treat.   Did you or family have it made or do you know any more on how it ended up with that serial number?  Do you have the original box and if so does it have an end label?  Is the frame blued or case colored?

2085B makes me think there might be a 2085A :)


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on September 06, 2018, 08:22:59 pm
Last I saw it was when I was back on leave in Texas. It has the factory antiqued finish on the gunslinger model. Hope the box label can provide more info. Had a receipt for the grips in the box, just waiting on those pictures so y'all can see what I've got. Cool thing is it had a test target from the previous owner shooting 250 grain Keith bullet over 17 grains of 2400. At 25 yrs the group looked pretty decent at 2.5 inches


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: RRio on September 08, 2018, 10:24:14 pm
I should probably leave this one alone, but I just can't help myself.  There is absolutely NO 1st gen Colt worth 16 Grand.  That is what is commonly called INSANE money for a lump of steel.  Not even if there was provenance it was owned by some incredibly renowned period Hero.  Of course, this is only my personal opinion.  It is also my personal opinion current USFA prices are artificially inflated by mindless "Collectors" who absolutely "must" have something.  We hear all the time .... buy a Colt.  Own a piece of History.  Horse Puckey.  Unless, again owned by some incredible famous individual, all it is ... just another Colt.  If it's a 3rd generation, it's also a Replicant.  There is nothing about a USFA that elevates it to "must be worship'd status."  It's just another Single Action.  Same same recent manufacture Colt.

AMEN !  You nailed it on the head, Coffinmaker. 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on September 22, 2018, 08:54:23 pm
So finally got those pics, thoughts guys? Also the box top has the 05 year stamp.

(https://i.imgur.com/SqD4Ydh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HurxJH1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vLbKozt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vkxlmVC.jpg)


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on September 22, 2018, 09:19:52 pm
Really nice gun!  Thanks for the photos.  One of a kind there I suspect...unless you find "A".  :)

Looks like a 7.5" Gunslinger to me :)  Grips are over the top.  And a custom Serial number.
Does your box have an end label?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Abilene on September 22, 2018, 09:35:42 pm
uh, is that rust?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on September 22, 2018, 10:14:25 pm
According to my dad no end label on the box mores the pity. Nope no rust, that's the factory distressed finish


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on September 22, 2018, 10:26:47 pm
Quote from: m.mac86
According to my dad no end label on the box mores the pity. Nope no rust, that's the factory distressed finish

Yep, we call it rust  ;D


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on September 22, 2018, 11:26:53 pm
Gucci rust, kinda like pre ripped jeans I reckon.  ::)


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on September 22, 2018, 11:30:46 pm
Quote from: m.mac86
Gucci rust, kinda like pre ripped jeans I reckon.  ::)

Heck, they charged enough for it  ;D   I like the look!   It is a really nice gun.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: m.mac86 on September 22, 2018, 11:36:25 pm
Wish I had pictures of the rest I have squirreled away. Here's a l prefix rodeo thats part of a pair, I just need ivories on it to match the other then get them scratched up proper like yours.

(https://i.imgur.com/BP0gNmQh.jpg)