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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => USFA CSS => Topic started by: PNWx45 on October 29, 2017, 02:59:34 pm



Title: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: PNWx45 on October 29, 2017, 02:59:34 pm
Hi folks,

I found what I believe is a USFA made Uberti parts gun but if indeed this is a USA USFA, I sure don't want to pass it up.

The serial number is 21XXX. The barrel is USFA, not USPFA. The hammer appears to be the cast Uberti type and is definitely not hand checkered. It also features a tapered firing pin.

(https://image.ibb.co/cog1D6/IMG_1535.jpg)(https://image.ibb.co/k2aHmR/IMG_1534.jpg)

The front sight is tapered and appears to have the Uberti profile.

(https://image.ibb.co/iHoEY6/IMG_1538.jpg)

The patent line roll mark is of the 2 line, 2 date type as well.

(https://image.ibb.co/cJ0Tt6/IMG_1537_1.jpg)

Any insights/info from the community would be appreciated to help identify this gun. Thanks!


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on October 29, 2017, 04:25:42 pm
Yep, I too think it is an Italian parts gun.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 29, 2017, 05:43:29 pm
It is a Uberti parts gun.

2 Line/2 dates:   Uberti guns and USFA Ainsworth
(I own two guns that are 2 line/2 date, BP frames, USA guns)
3 Line/3 dates:  US BP guns
2 Line/3 dates:  Cross pin frame and Bisley

On the premium and Prewar guns these are what we have come up with so far.

21213 parts gun
21215 parts gun
21651 parts gun
22113 parts gun
22180 parts gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?

22154 USA gun*  transitional guns by the # out of order?
22293 cone USA
22421  cone firing pin
22934 cone USA gun

http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/uberti-or-usfa-or-parts-gun.html


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: PNWx45 on October 29, 2017, 05:58:45 pm
Thanks for the feedback, guys. No doubt this is in fine gun in its own right but my interest isn't in a Uberti parts gun so I'm gonna pass. Appreciate the input.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 29, 2017, 08:08:06 pm
mind sharing the serial number so it can be added to the data base?


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on October 29, 2017, 09:36:59 pm
Seems like I have seen some Uberti-parts guns like this recently that have paperwork stating "100% American Made". I think the paperwork is fake because I don't think USFA would put that paperwork in a mixed parts gun.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on October 29, 2017, 09:40:40 pm
yahoody, I have given you the information before but the information you show does not reveal the information I provided.

I have a Henry Nettleton artillery model that is all USA parts and has all the tell tale features used to determine whether or not the firearm is a USA revolver plus I have the shipping invoice as to when the firearm was shipped from the USFA factory and that it was shipped from their latest location. According to Gary Granger only USA parts guns ever left their later location.

It is serial number 47239 and here is a photo pf it.

(https://i.imgur.com/Lbpw50i.jpg)

 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 30, 2017, 12:00:17 am
Thanks Lou.  I have added you photo and the serial number  to the data base.

Your gun is a tough one as the gun preceeding it, HN 47238, is an obvious Uberti parts gun.   They had to change to USA parts at some point.  Just guessing but looks like your gun was the first USA made HN.    I've also been told they didn't follow the serial numbers in any particular order, which is no help.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pPe4aCsD0nM/VUM-cvoOh3I/AAAAAAAAmQg/_dMzXkXoc0M/s1600/art.jpg.)

Quote
...I have seen some Uberti-parts guns like this recently that have paperwork stating "100% American Made". I think the paperwork is fake because I don't think USFA would put that paperwork in a mixed parts gun.

Truth be told USFA and USPFA prior said all sorts of things in their advertising that was blatantly untrue.  The "100% American Made" is just part of that spin until just prior to them closing the doors. .    I suspect the paper work isn't fake, just many of the original claims were.

For a look at one of the original guns and some neat  original paper work this is a nice ad and gun

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/usfa-pistols-revolvers/u-s-patent-fire-arms-mfg-co-type-i-single-action-army-cal-45-colt-7-1-2-inch-barrel.cfm?gun_id=100885089

and another nice gun but hammer and box say Uberti parts gun at best..

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/usfa-pistols-revolvers/usfa-single-action-45lc.cfm?gun_id=100915473


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 30, 2017, 12:14:22 am
This is Hopalong's beautiful USPFA copy of the "Sear's Gun" that is clearly a Uberti and claimed all USA made.   They even featured this particular gun as late as 2007 in the USFA catalog.

(http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo5/TimmyV_2008/sears10026.jpg)

http://web.archive.org/web/20070421033059/http://www.usfirearms.com/pdf/USFA_2007_catalog.pdf


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 30, 2017, 12:22:36 am
Hey Lou, this is a "Custer" gun from late in USFA production.  A 5.5" gun shouldn't even exist with a Custer label and serial number.   I was told and have the paper work to back it up, that Doug Donnelly had this one built specifically for a friend who owned the original Colt same serial number...that USFA duplicated.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E_bzEY70odk/WfDJbIAh2EI/AAAAAAAAsSE/kXCgzQ1Yge03gnBmT5SCdg8KNEhN4sgrACLcBGAs/s1600/DSC01683.JPG)


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: PNWx45 on October 30, 2017, 01:25:22 am
mind sharing the serial number so it can be added to the data base?

The dealer has two on hand with consecutive serial numbers: 21857 and 21858.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 30, 2017, 09:40:34 am
thanks much!


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on October 30, 2017, 11:53:06 am
yahoody, Here is a copy of the packing slip that the original owner of the revolver sent me when I purchased it from him. Notice the USFA address and of course the shipping date. According to Gary Granger only USA parts guns were ever shipped from this address.

(https://i.imgur.com/wfb5uWv.jpg)


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on October 31, 2017, 09:38:20 am
Here's an example of what I was talking about. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/710126261
The ejector rod housing and the hammer look to be Uberti parts. Maybe other parts too, that's just what I noticed right off the bat. Plus the serial number is low for a CC. Yet it has the pamphlet with the picture of the Indian which states 100% American made. These pamphlets were one of the main things I looked for when picture were too fuzzy or you could not see a serial number. It would be sad if these pamphlets are being faked.

PS I am in no way implying the seller faked any paperwork. If it is indeed faked it could have been done by anyone along the way that owned the gun before the seller got it.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on October 31, 2017, 10:34:48 am
Nice CC.  But like 99.9% of them, they were built on mostly Uberti parts.  USFA and USPFA before them made all sorts of claims that were flatly untrue.  "100% American Made" likely the most egregious I think.  And done intentionally IMO.   Best way to buy any gun is buy the gun not the story.  With USFA even more so.

I can tell you this on that particular gun...box, sleeve and paper work are original to the gun.  China Camp guns of that era came with a one piece box and generally a test target.   Gotta wonder where the test target went.   If there ever was one.  I have two that did not come with targets and were not sighted in.  Being a .45 no reason not to sight this one in, as a CC gun was claimed to be made. The white cotton gun sack is original as well.

Uberti parts?  As mentioned previous CC guns the over whelming vast majority of them are Uberti parts guns.  Gary Granger said they  made US CC guns.  But in searching I have yet to even see on in the past 10 to 12 years.

Here are some great tips on Uberti guns from USFA and USPFA..

very early 1 piece box and blue unmarked end label..generally holding a Uberti.  Only in 45 cal an only  4 3/4" no matter what gun was inside..

I also have much later CC guns that never hand an end label on the box or test targets.

white cheese cloth gun bag...Uberti.  Nice this one even has a matching serial

and as you mentioned the Uberti cast hammer..

Bottom line?  I have  a few extra copies of the USFA paper work and boxes just from my own collecting.  Others do as well.
In 5 years time these guns have doubled and tripled in value.  Buy the gun, not the story or the paper work :) 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on October 31, 2017, 09:01:11 pm
"Buy the gun, not the story or the paper work"
Good advice. I've seen it the other way around too. An old style box that held a USA made nickel 4" Sherriff's model. In this case somebody just got their boxes mixed up because the serial number on the box did not match the serial number on the gun. I would've bought it if I'd had the money but somebody got a good deal.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Dave T on November 09, 2017, 06:14:38 pm
I've been reading this thread with interest as I recently acquired a used but fully functional Nettleton 5-1/2". I studied the photos posted with the ad for this one carefully and was fairly confident about the "all US" features. The gun I received is the spitting image of Lou's gun except my shows more use like aturn line on the cylinder. As for its bonifieds, it has the wide and rounded cylinder flutes, nice "S" curve to the hammer with a cone FP, and the straight back front sight I understand are features of the US made guns. I had every intention of posting a picture or two but my Photobucket account seems to have pooped itself today. Can't up load pictures from my computer for some reason.

Anyway I thought I would at least tell you all about another one of these and give you the number for who ever is keep the data base I heard mentioned. My gun is HN 47241.

If I can ever get Photobucket working again I'll post a few pictures.

Dave


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: Dave T on November 09, 2017, 09:51:15 pm
Took most of the afternoon fighting with Photobucket but here's some photos:

(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/Old%20West/85692d26-769a-4eae-ac75-9295edf4334c.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/desertarcher/media/Old%20West/85692d26-769a-4eae-ac75-9295edf4334c.jpg.html)

(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/Old%20West/63fc8b44-1800-423e-a9ab-16019e925f4d.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/desertarcher/media/Old%20West/63fc8b44-1800-423e-a9ab-16019e925f4d.jpg.html)

(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/Old%20West/53d46084-e274-44b5-a99c-915ba57aeaa5.jpg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/desertarcher/media/Old%20West/53d46084-e274-44b5-a99c-915ba57aeaa5.jpg.html)

Now I can only hope these come out!

Dave


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: yahoody on November 10, 2017, 12:20:09 am
Nice guns guys!  Dave thanks for another number to be added to the list.  FWIW I do believe the USA made HN guns in a 5.5" version are rather rare.
 


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: GaryG on November 11, 2017, 09:41:23 pm
There was a dealer in Oregon that figured out that if he wanted a Pre War (CC/AB) with one piece wood, it was cheaper to by a HN.  Having said that, there some consecutive pairs of Pre Wars out there in other than 45 Colt.  They date back to 2004/2005 and are all US.

There are also some Inspector Series (HN, Aimsworth, etc) with intentionally mismatched numbers on the various parts.


Title: Re: USFA or Uberti?
Post by: GaryG on November 11, 2017, 09:49:57 pm
 Should have said there are consecutive pairs of HNs out there in other than 45 Colt