Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: FTrooper on August 06, 2017, 04:29:00 PM
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Just heard from the man that the various BLUE Mills belts, both .45-70 and .30-40 are starting to roll in. His first batch of .45-70 will be in his hands tomorrow! The .30-40 should follow shortly. Will advise.
Chris Fischer
F-Troop
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Cool! I've been using a khaki belt, and it's great!
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What was the cut off ....the Blue was used until ? the khaki ?
I see what appears to be both in use in Cuba ....
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For what it's worth, I think your best bet is to find pictures of whatever unit you're wishing to portray and go with what the photographs say they used. I'm not sure there was actually a "cut-off" until they went to the pocketed belt with the '03 Springfield.
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In my small researching of military uniforms and accoutrements I believe that quartermasters issued the material that they had until it was gone. No quartermaster would have taken back perfectly good items in order to issue the 'new' one just because the style or color changed. And the farther out that the fort or outpost was the less resupply it would have and the resupply would have naturally been the old stuff. Look at photos of Pershings Punitive Expedition's troopers as opposed to Rooseveldts Rough Riders. Pershing's guys look pretty ratty while Teddy's were sharp. There may have been an approval to issue a new piece of gear but how long did it actually take to get to the guys in the field? Old photos are the best way to build an impression. Your impression would be correct for that moment in time and at that location for that particular trooper.
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I happen to have an original of the very buckle on the khaki belt above ....
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As a rule of thumb but not set in stone, it appears blue was largely on regulars and khaki on state and volunteer units.
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As a rule of thumb but not set in stone, it appears blue was largely on regulars and khaki on state and volunteer units.
That was my impression as well
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I don't know about the Army, but just about all the pictures I've found of Marines show them with khaki belts.
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The army always issued blue up until the changover in 1905/07. However, contractors during the SAW made the undyed ones, and while they were mostly issued to volunteer and state units, they were known to pop up most anywhere.
The Marines used blue until around 1903, when they went to undyed ones when the army discontinued acceptance of their own blue belts in anticipation of the new clip loaders. But those would be delayed until 1907, with the Marines not receiving theirs until 1911 or so.
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All the pictures I have of Marines, especially in the Philippines, show khaki belts. In fact, I've never seen pictures of Marines with Krag belts of any other color. The earlier Winchester-Lee belts were all blue, but I'd love to see pictures of Marines wearing blue Krag belts if anyone has any. Always love to have additional documentation!
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Grenadier wrote "As a rule of thumb but not set in stone, it appears blue was largely on regulars and khaki on state and volunteer units."
Recently I found an original 45-70 blue belt on EBay that had a Rhode Island Militia buckle on it, having grown up in RI I decided that would be an interesting project to duplicate. So I pulled the (all replica from here on out) RI buckle I had on a 30-40 tan belt off and swapped it with the US buckle I had on my 45-70 blue belt. Now I have a duplicate of the original RI 45-70 blue belt and a US 30-40 tan. Probably doesn't matter much to anyone but me, but it brings a little bit of home a little closer to this old fart who now resides in Ohio. And the 45-70 goes with my Conn militia Peabody that was made in RI. ;D
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I ordered and received a .45 caliber blue Mills belt from WPG. As usual, the shipping was extremely fast. The belt was of excellent quality and, as advertised, all woven. I have been waiting for someone to reproduce an all-woven version of this belt for many years. If any of you are hesitant about purchasing one, don't be as you will likely be as satisfied with yours as I am mine (I have no connection with Jerry Lee or WPG whatsoever).
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Does have a link for these? I cannot find it on his website or on Ebay.
Thanks!
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mills-M1894-Blue-50-round-belt-for-45-70-Springfield-All-Woven-Reproduction-/232438374661?hash=item361e682105:g:yU8AAOSwySFZh7ea
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mills-M1894-Blue-50-round-belt-for-45-70-Springfield-All-Woven-Reproduction-/232438374661?hash=item361e682105:g:yU8AAOSwySFZh7ea
I saw that one....looking for the .30 Krag one. I guess it is not out yet. :-[
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I saw that one....looking for the .30 Krag one. I guess it is not out yet. :-[
It says on the linked site that Krag belts are coming soon.
RCJ
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The last contract for .30 Blue was let in November 1898. The first for .30 khaki was Feb. 1899 (there is never a reference to an undyed version in any Mills contract. Even they "khaki" were dyed a weird greyish tan color that seems to have faded to a real khaki pretty fast. The official color according to Mills contracts was "stone"). Regulars kept what they had till they wore out, hence the believe that regulars had one color and volunteers another. The blue can be seen in rare instances as late as 1901. They start to drop off significantly after 1900. When they Army went to raising the US Volunteers (starting with the 26th regiment) we see almost exclusively blue in the 26th. All the images I have of the 38th and regiments are khaki. I suspect there is a "break point" in there somewhere but without finding alot of documented images of the 27th-37th its a big question. The belts, believe it or not, didn't last as long as the rifle. Krags were still in service with the US Army regulars and Marines as late as 1907! Lots of images of troops in full khakis with krag rifles and carbines but M1903 pocket belts exist (alot of this had to do with the delay in production and issue of the M1903...changing the bayonet arrangement in 1905 and the bullet in 1906). M1903's were issued out as early as 1904 for annual target practice and to get the army familiarized with them, but then were turned back in for conversion right after that annual summer maneuvers. I suspect the M1903 belts were issued at that time and retained when the M1903's were traded back for krags!it even affect the Corps
Chris Fischer
F-Troop
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More krags and M1903 belts.
Chris Fischer
F-Troop
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Chris, I do know that Krags went to France in 1917 with a few units. There are plenty of photos of soldiers in London with Krags.
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They still don't have the Blue 30/40 belts
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Hi
I have several reference books on this stuff, and I found something I thought was strange. All of the PICTURES IN THE BOOKS I HAVE show 34/40 Krags and the C clip while the pictures showing the 45/70 have the US buckle setup. I also noted that the Philippine Insurrection pictures all showed long guns (both Trapdoors and Krags). I was SOOOO happy I got a Carbine too.
Later
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Mike, the 4th US Cavalry was involved in the Philippine Insurrection, and also here is an attached photo supposedly of the 1st South Dakota Volunteers with Krag carbines.
Quick Fire
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Thanks Quickfire, that's a big help. I didn't see the 4th Cavalry on the order of battle searches I did online, but I'll look for both south Dakota and the 4th.
Later
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Mike, I'm not sure if that be picture I posted is of the 1st South Dakota. It's labled that way but I'm not sure. However I do know that a handful of 4th cavalrymen fought with the North Dakota Volunteers.
Quick Fire
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Thanks again Quickfire. My plan as to get the 1899 Khaki uniform for the Philippines, but the pictures show the blue wool shirt and the old 1884 fatigue uniform pants. I was going to get those anyway. It also appears that I don't need to get the Khaki 100 round Krag belt since I have the blue one. I may get a .45-70 belt from S&S Firearms so I can use the Mills belt brass plate for something.
Later