Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L

Special Interests - Groups & Societies => 1860 Henry => Topic started by: mtmarfield on May 30, 2017, 03:58:42 pm



Title: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on May 30, 2017, 03:58:42 pm
   Greetings!

   A 'phone call to Tammy at Taylor's & Co. has confirmed a wish: the Winchester 1866
"Musket" (Infantry Rifle) chambered for the .44-40 ctg is available as a Special Order Item
with a 9 to 12 month turn-around, and is currently priced at $1330.00. This Special Order
requires a 1/2 Deposit.
   I was given permission to post this by Tammy, after having read the particulars back to
her for accuracy.
   If you have ever entertained the notion of owning a replica Winchester 1866 Musket,
this might be a great opportunity for you!

                 M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Abilene on May 30, 2017, 05:33:08 pm
Well, that's cool!  Any mention of bayonets?


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on May 30, 2017, 06:57:29 pm
   Greetings!

   NO! I forgot to ask, although I can guess what the answer would be.
Actually, I've been thinking about bayonets all day since... I wonder if
something from DGW ( or, ? ) could be "jimmyed" to work.

                 M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: treebeard on May 30, 2017, 08:05:32 pm
How long is the barrel?


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on May 30, 2017, 08:22:14 pm
   Greetings!

   Treebeard, Tammy indicated that the barrel is 27" long.

                 M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on May 30, 2017, 08:24:42 pm
I made a Trapdoor Springfield bayonet fit my original 1873 musket by completely lining the socket with thinwall brass tubing cutting out where the front sight slides in and out. Worked fine but mounts to the right. The 73 musket bayonet is unusual because it hangs under the barrel. I've shot my musket with both and like the look of the Trapdoor bayonet but either one hung on a rifle with a 30 inch barrel is damn intimidating. There is a bayonets of the world web page that lists every US bayonet with lengths and id's of the sockets that is very useful.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on May 31, 2017, 03:30:05 pm
   Greetings!

   Baltimore Ed, you won't believe this, but just such a notion was going through my
head, re: fitting an incorrect bayonet!
   Would you please post details on how you did this, as far as what diameter tubing
you used, soldering / brazing procedure, etc? I would want a bayonet for mine, and
I'm sure that I'm not alone!

                  M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on May 31, 2017, 08:42:16 pm
My first unknown socket bayonet that I  bought years ago to use as part of my British RE outfit turned out to be for a Trapdoor Springfield. When I bought my original 73 musket and tried to mount the bayonet to it the socket was too big to fit the Winchester. I had some scrap thinwall brass 3/4 inch OD tubing that had come off a brass bed headboard in my shop. Hint: Never throw things out that might become useful. Let your kids do that after you're dead. I cut it to the correct length of the socket and made a longitudinal cut and filed and fitted until the tubing would compress and force slide into the smaller diameter socket. I then traced the lock slot onto the brass and drove the tubing out with a piece of conduit and cut out the lock slot. The long slit in the brass is to the left of the front sight and the zig zag cut is off the other side. Then I drove it back in and filed the brass back as needed to get it to clear the front sight and fit the barrel. I wasn't sure about gluing it in but as it's a tight fit and the brass is springy it's not moving at all. Here are some pix. The bayonet web page is worldbayonets.com.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on May 31, 2017, 08:47:04 pm
You want to go to pg 5 of the socket bayonet lists under US to find what you need. Looks like you would need thicker brass than what i used to get it small enough. Maybe someone with a 66 Uberti musket could mic the last 3 inches of bbl and let us know what the actual measurements are. I plan to reline the Trapdoor bayonet's socket to fit the 1866 whenever the musket arrives.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on June 01, 2017, 06:08:41 pm
   Greetings!

   Thanks Mucho, B.Ed!

                 M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on June 07, 2017, 02:50:41 pm
M.T., just got off the phone with a buddy who has an older 66 Uberti musket. He was nice enough to measure the od of the bbl for me.
.687--- at muzzle
.702-- 2 inches from muzzle
.708--3 inches from muzzle 
But I don't know if these dimensions are what Uberti/Taylors are using now. If they are correct then the Uberti guns are too big for an original 66 bayonet. We won't know our actual dimensions until Santa emails us that our rifles have showed up. The brass tubing that I used is .022 thick. My trapdoor Springfield bayonet socket with this lining would be about .010 too small using his numbers. You could easily remove that much material. Plus there could easily be that much slop between one bayonet socket to another or bbl to bbl. I would say try to find yourself a decent Trapdoor bayonet to use. I'll look in my shop and see if I have any more brass tubing.
B.E.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on June 07, 2017, 03:43:42 pm
   Greetings!

   Thanks for the Info!

                 M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on July 25, 2017, 11:27:32 am
M.T., I GOT THE CALL!  My 66 musket has arrived at Taylors in VA. Now to arrange payment and shipment to my FFL guys. I also will order springs, screws and a decent mainspring and be done with the upgrades. Thought I'd let you know. Maybe I'll get to shoot it in our August  shoot.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Jake C on July 25, 2017, 12:13:08 pm
M.T., I GOT THE CALL!  My 66 musket has arrived at Taylors in VA. Now to arrange payment and shipment to my FFL guys. I also will order springs, screws and a decent mainspring and be done with the upgrades. Thought I'd let you know. Maybe I'll get to shoot it in our August  shoot.

You've got to post pictures ASAP! I'm excited to see how these look  ;D


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on July 25, 2017, 12:13:41 pm
   Greetings!

   That's fantastic! Perhaps mine is on the way, as well...!

                M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on July 27, 2017, 10:35:45 pm
   Greetings!

   I've received my "Trapdoor Bayonet" that I acquired via eBay; it appears to
be half-way decent, with, say, 85% blue, and not too much in the way of dings...

                M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on July 28, 2017, 09:42:13 pm
MT, I own three 73s and the only issues have been the soft italian screws and crazy strong springs. But my musket will be my first 66. In my research I'm reading about the loading gate having issues. Do I have to replace or tinker with the loading gate with this rifle? My rifle should be here next week. Replacement springs came today.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Coffinmaker on July 29, 2017, 05:25:24 pm
Baltimore Ed,

I have good news ...... and ...... not so good news.  First, the "not so good."  Unless Uberti has done a major change in the way their 1866 Ladle is made ...... it is KRAP.  It is too shallow in comparison to an original, and uses a bent tab as a cartridge stop.  The bent tab WILL break.  Not if .... when.  500 rounds .. 5 rounds .. just be assured, it will break.  It needs replaced "BEFORE" the rifle goes into service.

Now "The Good!!"  There are very nice replacements available.  VTI Gunparts has a nice deep scoop Ladle that is much better made than the OEM ladle.  Made of much sterner stuff.  Personally, I would still re-inforce the KRAP little tab.  Track of the Wolf also sells nice after-market ladles.  I believe the same Mfgr makes labels for both retailers.

There is much less stress on the KRAP little tab in a 44-40 rifle.  The ladle scoop is the primary cartridge stop.  The heaviest breakage occurs in 38s

Coffinmaker


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on July 29, 2017, 07:17:01 pm
I see on the sass forum/utube where jb weld is used ( which fixed my Marlin jam 100%) but I also see where a piece of steel can be soldered to the ladle. Sounds more permanent. If I've got to reinforce whatever aftermarket ladle let me ask.  Are there any drawings of the dimensions of this reinforcement piece? How big does it need to be? Can a triangle work or would a rectangular shape be better? Someone mentioned using a woodruff key. After 1300.00 I shouldn't have to tinker with anything on a new Uberti but I've read this bitch numerous times in my researching this so I'll hush. After all this is cowboy action but unfortunately a part of that 'action' is the act of repairing our NIB firearms in order to play cas with them. I digress. What does this tab extension have to clear?  And thanks alot for the good-bad news. Glad you're not my brain surgeon.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Major 2 on July 30, 2017, 04:56:51 am
My 2 cents

My Pard bought a Brand spank'n' new in box 38 Cal. 66 from Taylors in 2012 ..." slam dam spanking new "
On the second stage of his very first outing it jammed ...Lever would only open about 3/4 inch as well...

removing the side plate these two parts pieces ? fell out ....  at the time it was  ???  WTH

 the tab was broken off the ladle  and we surmised  the piece of steel had been soldered to the ladle and failed .
There a minute of solder on the rectangular piece of steel & a spot on the ladle.... (assume this was done at Taylors before it was shipped )
NO clue what the little tab of brass is .... We did not find the ladle tab ( blued steel )

we installed the Track of the Wolf replacement ....  5 years later no issues







Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Coffinmaker on July 30, 2017, 11:56:15 am
Baltimore Ed ....

There are several ways to resolve this issue.  First method is to procure one of the new After-Market ladles from either VTI or TOW and install it.  Cross your fingers.  I have heard of Them lasting indefinitely.  Especially with large bore calibers (44-40 & 45)

Reinforcement may be a rectangle, a triangle, a piece of rod stock .. what have you.  The key here is flux and clean surfaces to solder to.  the same conditions apply should you opt for J. B. Weld.  I have a '66 with a gusset formed from JB weld that has ben in service for at least 7 years.  MUST have clean surfaces to glue to .. MUST mix the JB CORRECTLY.  Must hold one's tongue right in any case  ;D

Clean the back of the Ladle where you going to solder too or Glue too.  Right down to bare steel.  Then clean it again with alcohol.  I make a "dam" on either side of the tab with masking tape then fill with JB Weld then set it on an angle overnight to cure.  Don't touch it.  Don't even breathe on it.  Leave it alone overnight.  When you remove the cool little tape dam(s) you'll have a nifty little gusset.  Done right, it will last indefinitely.  The ladle is the only weakness in the 1866.  The only other problem you will encounter are the OEM Springs but you already know that.  Substitute some nice after-market springs.  Enjoy.  Brass rifles-r-FUN.

coffinmaker


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on July 30, 2017, 12:09:19 pm
Coffinmaker, thanks for the instructions. I'll post photos of whatever I do. As soon as I can find out what the serial number is I wil order a 25.00 loading gate from track of the wolf. I'll still reinforce the original one.
Update--- another week and no musket. After waiting for 4-5 months and not even thinking about the rifle, now with it supposedly sitting in a warehouse in VA or on a ups truck somewhere I'm getting anxious.
Update 8-11-17--Still waiting, shipping delay. The 1st shipment is in VA awaiting unpacking and log in. The second and last shipment of this years 1866 run is due in next Tuesday. We'll see what happens next week. Stay tuned for further developments. Meanwhile back at the farm.......
Update 8-16-17-- Just talked to Keri in VA. Doesn't look like there were any muskets in either shipment. There was supposed to be one. So sad. Uberti won't be open again until September 1st. She's supposed to call me back later today to confirm. I'll just have to complete my Spanish Contract musket. Meanwhile back at the other farm.....


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on August 17, 2017, 09:21:09 am
At the other farm....Just got off the phone with the Taylors rep, Keri. Bad news. My musket is STILL IN ITALY. Either it wasn't completed to make either of these 2 recent shipments to VA or there was some problem with the order or Uberti hasn't even started the build yet. Take your pick. In all honesty, Keri was very apologetic and after September 1st when Uberti is back to work, will try to find out what happened to my musket. Stay tuned for further developments---same bat time--- same bat channel.
Update---9-12. Talked to Keri yesterday. Still no information from Uberti in Italy.
Update---10-16 Called Keri , still doesn't know anything.
Update---10-31 Happy Spooky Day! I got a call from my pawn shop. Keri HAS a musket in and is shipping tomorrow!! Should be here by Friday or Saturday. Can't wait.
Update---11-5 musket is at my FFL guys shop. Looks like I can't go get it until Tuesday. Dadgummit!!!! As soon as I pick it up I will post photos.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on November 07, 2017, 02:00:30 pm
Guys, my 1866 musket has finally arrived and looks great. I put 5 rds through it and the sights are dead on. BUT, I had to load them one at a time. They would go into the lifter through the gate but I couldn't get any rds to go into the magazine!! I'm not going to tear it down now but will tinker with it tomorrow. I've got a set of Slick Springs with hardened screws to replace the factory stuff with and after I see what size screw is in the ladle I will order a upgraded gate from track of the wolf.  Photos tomorrow.
MT, as to our bayonets, not good news, the 1873 is too tight on the bbl and the front sight is too tall to go under the bridge of the trapdoor bayonet. We might be able to stretch the bridges. I would do that before I shortened the ft sight.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: treebeard on November 07, 2017, 08:38:19 pm
Looking forward to the pictures!! Also interested on what you discover on that problem.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on November 08, 2017, 12:06:07 pm
I took my musket somewhat apart today. All the recvr screws came out easily. Removed the sideplates and buttstock. I found one piece of brass inside the action but otherwise it was very clean. I polished up the lifter with oil and 400 grit paper, installed lifter and lever springs from the Smith Shop. Installed a light duty hammer spring but it wouldn't work due to it being narrower than a cutout milled into the lower tang. I went ahead and put several pieces of belt leather under it and it was good. Actually the original spring looked alot like it except for the cut out in the center of the light spring. The problem in the mag tube was that the follower was hanging up. Depending on how you pushed it in, upward or downward as it was depressed it would lock up. In attempting to loosen the screw on the end of the mag tube I rapped my screwdriver towards the receiver to break it loose a few times. I couldn't see where anything moved but now it works. The screw never came unscrewed, Louigi the Uberti gorilla strikes again. I'm guessing that the tube  wasn't seated all the way into the recvr and the back end of the follower was hanging up on it. I just fired 3 rds from the magazine with no issues. Here are some photos but the protective film is still on it. I lightly hit it with some Mothers after messing with it and now I can't get a decent pix. It's a shiny rifle for sure. I will try photos outside later.
What kind of sling would be appropriate for this 1866? Leather or cloth?
MT- update on the bayonet. I've managed to get the trapdoor bayonet to go on the musket by stretching and filing on the socket and bridge.  Now I need to tinker with the bayonet lock to get clearance for the front sight. It goes right on if the screw is removed from the lock.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on November 10, 2017, 07:22:09 pm
   Greetings!

   It looks very nice! My FFL has sent his info to Taylor's, and I'm in 'waiting mode',
which means that I should see it next week...!

                 M.T.Marfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Coffinmaker on November 10, 2017, 11:06:06 pm

Balto,
When I enlarge you photo (gets fuzzy) it would appear Uberti is using the same Sling Mount in the Butt Stock as they use for the 1960 Henry.  Were it mine, Leather would be the only sling material.  Were it mine, I'd start with a leather 1860 Henry Sling.  Your call.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on November 16, 2017, 06:43:38 pm
   Greetings, All!

   Well, I picked up my 1866 Musket! Lovely, dark wood; hangs like a, well, Musket from my shoulder,
which is perfect for me! Along with it came a 'closeout' special: an 1871 Open-Top, 5-1/2" bbl., chambered
for the .44S&W Spl ( .44 S&W Russian ). The price was right, so I had to do it! A spare cylinder cut for
the .44WCF would be nice, but might be pushing it...
   Now all that I need is a slightly better eyeglass prescription! Photos to come!

                     MTMarfield
   


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on November 16, 2017, 08:14:06 pm
Glad to hear that you've gotten your musket too. I replaced those 3 springs and my new gate is supposed to arrive tomorrow. I've only shot 3 rds at a time so as not to break the original gate. The sights were right on with my load. In fact I could see them better than my friends 1866 musket. His is the older model Uberti. That was actually one of my major concerns, that the sights were going to be too small and be a problem. We're shooting Wild Bunch Saturday (1911,1912 and my Marlin) so I'll have to wait another month before I can try it in a match. It'll give me time to break it in.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on November 16, 2017, 08:54:05 pm
   Greetings!

   I don't currently have a shop to work in, so I'll likely have a proper qualified 'smith do the work.
I'd like to find one that is local, and I would be willing to drive south to Denver / environs, or north.
I might put a few rounds through it first, but I'd really like to find a CAS Gunsmith. This thing is
gorgeous, and I want to treat it right!

                 MTMarfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Tuolumne Lawman on November 17, 2017, 10:29:00 am
Man, those 1866 muskets are almost as sexy as the 1860 Henry!


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Coffinmaker on November 18, 2017, 12:09:14 pm

I've often wondered .....  If one were to have sufficient disposable income ....... to wander around South American gun shops in search of a few of those last production 1866s Winchester made in Central Fire, strictly for export.  Could be kinda fun.  With current garbage import restrictions, re-import could be problematic (antiques??) but finding a shooter or two would be way cool.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Yeso Bill on November 18, 2017, 12:56:04 pm
I saw a collection one time way back in the 1970s in Las Cruces, N.M.  I recall the guy had several hundred Winchesters and they had mostly all came out of Mexico and they were all restored.  I don't remember seeing any Henrys or 66s but I was too awed to ask.   


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Abilene on November 18, 2017, 01:52:35 pm
I've often wondered .....  If one were to have sufficient disposable income ....... to wander around South American gun shops in search of a few of those last production 1866s Winchester made in Central Fire, strictly for export.  Could be kinda fun.  With current garbage import restrictions, re-import could be problematic (antiques??) but finding a shooter or two would be way cool.

At the last Shot Show a South American was talking to me (I honestly don't remember which country) and showing me pics of his guns on his phone.  His English was poor but he had a '66 and he said they were pretty common, and cost some ridiculously low price.  I'm guessing the paperwork must be horrific or something or else collectors would have scooped them up.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Tuolumne Lawman on November 19, 2017, 10:38:00 am
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, I was an FFL and did several gunshows a month.  At one southern California show (Del Mar, I think) I was offered an 1866 carbine in centerfire, with a box of ammo for $400!  It was before I started CAS, so I passed.  There was a SASS member named Charley Gullet who wrote a couple books.  I found him a rusted 1866 that he saved the receiver and lifter from, and built a centerfire 1866 out of it.  If I remember correctly, he used cut down 41 magnum brass and a heeled bullet.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on November 19, 2017, 08:34:32 pm
  Greetings!

   I don't currently have a shop to work in, so I'll likely have a proper qualified 'smith do the work.
I'd like to find one that is local, and I would be willing to drive south to Denver / environs, or north.
I might put a few rounds through it first, but I'd really like to find a CAS Gunsmith. This thing is
gorgeous, and I want to treat it right!

                 MTMarfield
That's what kitchen tables are also made for. Just wait till the 'boss' is out.
I swapped out the Uberti gate with a TOTW improved gate today. The only difference is the tab on the new one is a hair thicker. I will do a jb weld reinforce on it just to have a spare.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: mtmarfield on November 21, 2017, 01:41:56 am
   Greetings!

   OK...!

                 MTMarfield


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on December 02, 2017, 12:21:34 pm
I shot 50 rds this morning out of my Uberti 66 musket. The sights are dead on with my handloads. I shot at a variety of big and small targets on my range with only a couple of misses but had 2 light hammer strike misfires which went off the second time they were hit. I guess I have to tinker with my mainspring some before I use this in a match. Loading was stiff but is loosening up. The action is a little sticky even with the aftermarket wire springs. Just a matter of breaking it in. I'll shoot 50 more tomorrow. Overcast skies so here's some photos.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Coal Creek Griff on December 02, 2017, 02:31:21 pm
That's excellent. Your sling looks great, too.

CC Griff


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Coffinmaker on December 02, 2017, 10:43:50 pm
Balto E,

Lighter Lever Side Springs and lighter Main Spring is into "domino effect."  If you have some light hammer strikes, FIRST look at your firing pin and firing pin return spring. 
If the business end of your firing pin looks like the leading edge of a basket ball, it will need re-profiled to a pointier profile.
The OEM Firing Pin return spring is too heavy/too long.  Shorten it to 11/16ths or replace it with a reduced return spring.
The Firing Pin Extension rod should slide smoothly in and out of the bore in the receiver.  If it doesn't...polish it.  It (extension) must also slide smoothly in and out of the Breach Block.  Often a burr at the end of the Extension.  Often the inside of the Breach Block is a little rough.  Polish em.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on December 03, 2017, 09:06:05 am
While I was watching tv last night I was levering my 66 to help break it in and wound up replacing the original mainspring but I found that the firing pin is very stiff to move when the lever is up where the hammer would naturally hit it but when the lever is lowered slightly loosens up. If  you thumb cock the hammer after firing and then slowly lower the lever the extension will pop out 1/8 inch. Do I have something in a bind? Is this correct? I also found a weirdness where the sear and hammer engage. If I hold the trigger and hammer as they slowly engage can feel an extra 'edge' right before it engages the full cock notch. I don't fell anything when I run at normal speed or when I pull the trigger. When I get it apart I'll post some photos.
Updats---Put 30 more rds through it today after reshaping the trigger sear angle, the angles were cut weird making it feel like two different engagements on the full cock notch. Only 2 my fault misses but no light hits with the original mainspring installed. Now I need to crank out some more.44-40s. I'm going to like this rifle. I need to get my pact timer repaired so I can do a head to head shootout comparison between the 66 and my Marlin and see which one is faster.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Coffinmaker on December 03, 2017, 04:22:09 pm
Ed,

YES!!  You have a bit of a problem in your ignition system.  The coiler is obviously out of phase with the positractor.!!  Maybe.  FIRST.  BEFORE you attack anything else, reduce the firing pin return spring and check/reprofile the nose of the Firing Pin.  Reassemble and and test.  SECOND.  With the lever tight against the lower tang, the Firing Pin and Extension should slide in and out smoothly and easily.  The binding you have found is contributing to your fail to fire.  BEFORE lots of excitement and AFTER you have fix'd the Firing Pin and Spring, chamber a FIRED RESIZED or VIRGIN case and test the Firing Pin/Extension Rod for freedom of movement.  You should be able to push the Extension Rod into it's bore easily with light pressure and it should come right back out EASILY.

If you get some light binding with NO CASE chambered, but everything frees up and runs smooth and light WITH a case chambered .... no real problem unless the bolt drop is really excessive.  You should not get a lot of vertical movement of the bolt on the end of the Extension Rod.

Now ...... Take the Hammer out of the gun.  Inspect the sides of the hammer for drag marks.  If you have drag marks on the hammer, you have burrs in the wrist.  Stone those (Burrs) lightly and if you have a VERY FLAT surface, polish the sides of the Hammer.

If you are running wire Lever Side Springs and a reduced Main Spring, there is no "breaking in" to do.  At most, pull the carrier block out and on a VERY FLAT surface with 1000 or 2000 grit Wet/Dry polish all four sides of the Carrier Block.  Lightly oil everything.  Should run lightly enough you'll need a lever wrap to keep from hurting your fingers cycling the lever. 


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on December 03, 2017, 04:45:14 pm
Coffinmaker, the left cases are from today's 30 with the original mainspring while the right cases are from the other day's 50 with the reduced power spring.?? Look alike to me.
I resized a case and chambered it as requested--- no bindind on the firing pin!!! The extension moves easily with finger pressure. The hammer rebounds. Amazing. Pardon me lack of unnerstannin this mystery but wth? Is my rifle posessed with some old Italian spirit?
I assume that the chambered case is supporting the firing pin and extension so nothing is binding. But that doesn't explain my earlier light hits? I looked at the hammer when I had it out earlier and didn't notice any real marks. More shooting required.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Coffinmaker on December 04, 2017, 11:23:16 am
OK Ed,
We are in hot pursuit!!  Next step is to check Head Space.  I use an automotive type blade feeler gage that will fit between the mortice wall and the extractor.  Measuring between the Case Head and the Breach Face of the Breach Block (Bolt).  Optimum Head Space is .004 +/- .001   Some guns will run with far more Head Space, clear out to .010 but .010 is on the ragged edge.  Should also check for firing pin protrusion.  When pressed into the Bolt with the spring installed, the firing pin should protrude .045 - .050 past the Bolt face.

Then we consider the possibility of Primers not fully seated in the pocket.  And Then .......

The wrong Primers.  What brand primers are you using??  When a toggle link rifle is built to run light and fast, you may well have to consider it a "Federal Primer" only rifle.  Remington and CCI are well too hard for a reduced Main Spring.  Federal and Winchester are the recommended primers and if a really light Main Spring, Federal only.

The indentations on your pictured primers appear to be same same.  That would also indicate to me your Main Spring is sufficient.  The last thing to look at is YOU.  When you had the Fail to Fire, were you running the rifle fast and perhaps got out of time with the rifle??  I have been shooting Brass rifles forever (no lever safety) and still occasionally get a little out of time and eject a live round that has just a tiny little dent in the primer.  Not enough for ignition.  Very annoying.  I shouldn't actually admit to that.  However ............
And I do wonder about your Head Space.

PS:  Forgot.  It has been very very common for Large Bore Uberti toggle rifles to have excess head Space.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on December 05, 2017, 12:37:18 pm
Coffinmaker, I broke out my feeler gauges and calipers and the bolt is OVER camming slightly not the opposite. I cannot get anything between the chambered brass and the bolt. With an mty chamber, on the rt side of the extractor it measures  .057 while on the left side it is .054, my starline brass measures a .059 - .060 rim thickness. The bolt closes on a chambered round with just the slightest amount of resistance. I had a more severe condition on my NWMP 1876 carbine if you remember the old thread. The 76 was over camming to the point that it wouldn't even chamber certain brands of trimmed .45-70 brass with the correct rim thickness. My shooting buddy removed some metal from the links on only one side which solved the problem. The other side was fine. The golden primers in my .44-40 are winchester but I usually use cci. I'm going to leave the original mainspring in the rifle as it's not much of a felt difference between it and the aftermarket light wt spring. The lt weight spring didn't really fit the rifle as there is a milled recess in the lower tang and the narrow profile caused it to go into the recess which reduced the spring to the point that it lost most of it's power. I had to put some pieces of belt leather in the recess to get it to work at all. This could have been where the light strikes came from. Your interest and imput is mucho appreciated.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on December 10, 2017, 01:50:32 pm
Just put 50 more through the musket with no issues except a couple of my fault misses. No misfires or feeding problems. I will shoot 50 more this week in preparation of our club's match next Saturday but it looks like Colour Sgt Bourne will use it next week. I would think that the slight amount of over camming is preferential to excessive headspace. Would also think that things will loosen up the more that it's shot.


Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on December 14, 2017, 11:25:02 am
I've often wondered .....  If one were to have sufficient disposable income ....... to wander around South American gun shops in search of a few of those last production 1866s Winchester made in Central Fire, strictly for export.  Could be kinda fun.  With current garbage import restrictions, re-import could be problematic (antiques??) but finding a shooter or two would be way cool.

Lived in South America for damn near a year and it's not smart for a Gringo to mention "gun" there and that's even if you speak Spanish like me. Collectors pretty much "raped" Latin America in the years after WWII and what is left the families are keeping as heirlooms if allowed. Some no doubt are hidden in countries where ownership is illegal. I had dreams of encountering an Argentine S&W American or a Cuban pre-1866 carbine, but the odds were worse than the lottery. As well, thanks to decades of Westerns and nowadays the Internet these people know the value of these guns.



Title: Re: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...
Post by: Baltimore Ed on December 16, 2017, 08:16:10 pm
We shot our December match today and then had our clubs Christmas dinner after shooting 5 scenarios. 16 shooters participated in the fun. I went as Color Sgt Bourne and used my .45lc Webley Greene Target Model, a .455 Mk IV and my new 66 musket. I only had 2 misses with it on the first scenario where I tried to run the rifle too fast, I slowed down a tad and was clean the rest of the day. Fired 49 rounds out of the rifle which ran great. Just the occasional hitchiness due to my not working the lever all the way. A leather wrap on the lever and something non slip on the brass carbine buttplate would help it alot. Will post photos when the club's photographer sends me some.


Photos!