Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1876 => Topic started by: dusty texian on February 24, 2017, 04:54:05 PM
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This carbine build may not be a smart move money wise , but that will not be the first time for me. I have in my possession a couple of original 1876 Winchester frames a few barrels and an assortment of small parts. When you look for them they are hard to find and bring prices that would shock most. After a few yrs of collecting parts here and there where I find them, I have almost enough parts to build another 1876 . The two frames that I have to choose from are a good 3rd Model with 40-60 wcf oct. barrel. And another 3rd. Model frame that the lower tang has been cut off right where the Sr. # would have been, why who knows. The rest of the frame looks great. Since this is a kind of fantasy build , I have chosen this one to repair the lower tang and give it Sr# RAW my initials . The idea is to make this frame into a carbine 45/60 round barrel . I have the carbine rear stock and will have to fabricate a butt plate , not very hard. I have the 22" round barrel 45/60 in good shape , and most of the internals . Will make the forend wood from walnut myself, am planning on making the forend and barrel bands to look like a 1873 model carbine . A short mag here would be much easier , but the full mag carbine is what I have in mind. Will post progress as I go.,,,DT
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Most Excellent Dusty!!
This will be FUN to follow!!
Coffinmaker
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The actual work is enjoyable , but the real satisfaction I get out of it is rescueing one from extinction. If that make sense . ,,,DT
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Pic's of the progress would be great too!
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Will Do . ,,,,DT
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Here is what I'm starting with. Can see right through this project. ,,,DT
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A squirt or two of oil and some judicious rubbin-n-buffin an you'll be right there.
This gonna be fun to follow. I've done more-n-one er two projects that were financial disasters. Capitol fun though.
Coffinmaker
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Dusty,
It's great to see this kind of rescue done. I'll look forward to following your progress.
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As recommended I rubbed down the rusty old 76 with Marvel Mystery Oil. No Magic happened just got shiney! On the other hand I did get my hands on a great condition 3rd. Mod. bolt ! Much better condition than the one I had for this carbine . Found a peice of walnut that looks like would match the rear stock , and is long enough for the forearm shape that I have in mind. Now to drill the deep magazine hole ! Will cross my fingers on this deep hole drilling. ,,DT
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Not much progress to report . Did come-up with a jig to drill the .750 hole through the stock for the magazine tube, now to just do it . Made a paper pattern for the butt-plate , now to cut it out of steel plate , not sure if 1/8" or 3/16" would look better. Polished trigger , trigger sear , trigger pin , and hammer , ready for hardening . Cut new steel stub for lower tang repair very close to size. Ready for Tig welding. That was my Sunday afternoon! Pic's when I have some .,,DT
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Sounds like quite a busy Sunday. I am always in awe of folks that have the skills to do these types of things themselves. I do well to disassemble and clean a gun without damaging it - let alone try to restore one.
I fortunately have an excellent gunsmith with a full shop a few miles from me that I've developed a friendship with. I see him frequently, much to my wife (and my bank account's) dismay. ;D
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If your into old time guns like we are , having a friend that is a gunsmith is a great asset . And can keep you spending money on all the good deals that come along. But aint it fun!!!! ,,,DT
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Just about done with the carbine butt-plate. Need to polish drill countersink the holes, now on to the forearm and barrel bands,,,DT
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Ahhh, to have talent... 8)
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Wish I did ! I struggle a lot ! But do it for fun . ,,DT
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Another look at the progress making the carbine butt plate. Need a bit more inleting and will call it good. Started on the forend ,have the mag tube drilled and barrel channel inleted. Have changed up the plan, now will use a short forearm and rifle cap /button mag. Sort of like the Apache rifle Hombre! but a 76" 45/60 wcf . ,,DT
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Getting closer , have the walnut fitted to the frame. Mag/tube installed /nose cap fitted . Now cut the mag tube to final lenth/ turn a round short mag. tube plug . Make and install sling swivels . This thing will end up not very much bigger than a 73 carbine. Has a good feel so far. ,,DT
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Need a break from sniffing walnut , so before doing final shaping/sanding going to do a little metal work. Missing the left side plate , so will fabricate one . Lucky it's the easy one . ,,DT
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Lookin good
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Thanks Cliff , was starting to think I was talking to myself! LOL ,,,DT
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Mr. Dusty,
Not talking to ya-self, been keeping up with ya posts and this project is looking GOOD! :)
Thanks for keeping the updates posted.
P.B.
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Mr. Pinto Bean's Thank's Amigo!!! ,,,DT
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Yep, you've got a number of lurkers admiring from a distance.
CC Griff
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Thanks CCG , you will see it shoot soon! ,,,DT
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I'm watching! ;D
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Just piddled around today with some heat treating small parts . Got that out of the way , started on the side cover . Still got a way's to go! Pic. for The King!
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Waiting for an endmill to be delivered before I can complete the side plate. Tig welded the lower tang portion that was missing. Spent a good bit of time with the file shaping the tang . The repair came out great . Now drill / countersink the lower tang stock screw and mill the recess in the tang for the lever lock. Work on this project is about to come to a halt, until I return from this Hunting trip a couple wks or so. ,,DT
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Finished with the side cover. One job i have been putting off ( heat treating and tempering) the old loading gate spring-cover. That old thing is paper thin and they are rare as hens teeth! Just about finished polishing it . Well it's got to be done one way or another. Will soon find out how my luck is running! Waiting on small parts a few springs and screws. When they arrive will put all this pile of parts together . The part i like the most is assembly and final fitting , like watching a gun come alive from a pile of parts. Pic's when there is somthing worth showing.,,,,DT
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Loading gate spring/cover has some spring to it now ! ,,,DT
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;D
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This is the tang before the repair and after . Picture of the tang repair . Now need drill hole/ counter- bore for stock-screw, and lever lock. The homemade side cover . Used old steel in order to match the old rifle , came out prety close , just as old and beat-up as the rest . Need drill the side cover screw hole , and trim the outside down just a tad. ,,DT
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Dang nice work Dusty!!!!
Hootmix.
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Thank You Slamfire. Wood work is most complete. Need final sanding , then start stain and oil finish . All internals are installed ,fitted and working smooth. Headspace is snug with just a small resistance on closing on the Jammison 45/60 brass. Will not close on trimmed 45/70 brass. Just right! Had to make a trigger return spring the old one was very light. Forged the new one from an old piece of bedspring coil . Makes great small springs! Next step will be on the lathe making the button cap for the half mag and cutting down the magazine tube . Waiting on the rear folding barrel sight to come in. Will use an old Marbles # 3 i think for the front and a folding Lyman tang for the rear. After a range test will take apart for metal polish and re-blue. Tried a new blueing method on the forend cap and like it . Will post more when further down the road . ( Correction the front sight is a Marbles # 6 ) ,,DT
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I've enjoyed watching your progress.
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Thank You Mr. Will . ,,DT
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Looking Great! :D
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Most excellent work Mr. Dusty!! Can't wait for the next update!
P.B.
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Thank You both , King Medallion and Mr. Pinto Beans . ,,DT
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That is some outstanding work, Neighbor.
Jthbjr
in beautiful Art, Texas
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Thank You neighbor. Went through Fly Gag the other day on my way up to Angelo . Thought about Ya! Country is beautiful right now. ,,,DT
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Dusty,
Impressive work on this project and the 50.
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Dusty
Looks real GOOD . Hopes she's a tack driver . Hope you get that old Buck with it .
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This has been superb fun to follow. A demonstration of Necromancy I can fully support. Super Super nice job.
Coffinmaker.
More pictures ....... PLEASE!!
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Thank's to all, for the words of encouragement. So far this project has been fun and the parts are not just sitting in a box . If anything they are all in one place now. If there is some time for the project between Grandson's baseball games this wknd. Will get started on the magazine plug and follower. Had two pieces of original 1876 magazine tube , soldered them together for this project , instead of using the remanufactured tube that has been pictured. Yep I'm a bit that way! ,,, Y'all have a fine wknd. ,,,DT
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Dusty, your carbine project is amazing!!! Your skill level and patients far exceeds mine. You'll be happy to hear after a lot of procrastination and car and truck projects, I just got my 1876 finally put together. I just can't find where I put my forend cap screws lol. Thank you for your help with my barrel!
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That is Good new's HPD . Look forward to seeing the old rifle.,,DT
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Trapped inside today ( Tropical Storm ) Bunch of rain!!! ,,, Made the best of it , cut a copy Of a Type 8 Magazine button Lapped the bore of the project gun with a poured lead slug and Extra fine compound . The old bore brightened up and still slugs a tight .458 . When the rain stops , have a few target loads used in another 76 . They should be just fine for testing the little carbine / short rifle combo. Hope Y'all had a better day than I did . ,,,DT
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Mr. Dusty sounds like a good day for being trapped inside!! Enjoy the updates on the project, keep em coming!!
On a different note, I have been trying for weeks to get out and run a few through the 45-75 myself. If anyone mapped out just how busy I would be in 'retirement', would never have believed them!!
Thanks again for sharing the updates!!!
P.B.
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Your right Mr. Pinto Beans , any day's a Good day ! Funny how much work you can get into , when you dont have to go to work ! Have a Great Day My Friend !!!,,,DT
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Any day playing/working with guns is better than a good day at work!
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Amen.
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PLUS ONE to B Ed. ;D
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Update ,,, The little 45/60 parts gun is all together . It holds three cartridges in the very short magazine, and is very handy coming up to shoulder. Added a folding rear barrel sight and a Lyman tang sight . It has a very good feel and sight picture for me. Should test a few rounds through it soon . Then start the finish work on the wood and metal parts. ,,,DT
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Very nice stock work there Dusty. She's going to be sharp but I don't know if I like the short magazine though. I think I would have allowed one more round's worth of mag tube to extend past the forarm. Pretty work. You have a lot of talent.
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Thank's Baltimore Ed . I kinda like it short magazine like it is , should be very handy hauling around the desert mountain country . Here is a picture of the other side . ,,DT
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Nice work!
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Am I impressed! That's excellent!
CC Griff
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This project is really coming along great!
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Howdy DT,
just looked at your post today for the first time. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that spends more time and money putting old stuff (guns, cars, bicycles, wood working hand tools , etc.) together than a new one costs. I guess we're just weird like that. You do some fantastic work . Some gun stuff I have to farm out , but not much. Keep up the good work. Have you test fired it yet ?
Keep it up,
Isom
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Thanks for all of the comments fellows . Isom we are not alone ! No Sir have not test fired the little parts gun yet. Need to take some time and shoot a few ! ,,,DT
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Yep, we're all watching. She's looking great.
I want to see a photo of her belching fire when you're done! ;D
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Will Do BB. That coffee drinking Coffinmaker said just need a little rubbing . Eh was a lot of rubbing , but plenty satisfying ,,,DT
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Yeah...........it's easy for the one not doing the work to say it just needs a "little bit", ain't it? ;D
Of course, we've never said that to anyone, have we? ;)
I often find myself reading your posts and being wistful about what seems to be a safe full of '76's you describe. That's a rifle I've long desired, but never had an opportunity to own. Oh well, one of these days.............
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What a great project and end result!
Sweet looking carbine there Sir :)
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Thank's fellows. Still have a lot of polish/ finish work to do. Did get to shoot some rounds through her yesterday. The little carbine/rifle shoots as good as I can hold . Was shooting along the surf and dunes , could shoot as far as I thought I could hit . Was supprised just how handy and accurate the little thing is. With 30" between tang sight and front sight make the 22" barrel and light trigger a dandy shooter . I left out the trigger block on this one , and made a custom trigger spring . Feels like shooting a set triger gun now . Tried a very light load that was accurate . 296 gr. Winchester original bullet cast with WW / .060 card wad between/ 46 gr. 2ff Schuetzen powder / Winchester primer / Jammison case / Bees wax/ tallow lube , seated with a Winchester tong tool. Could hit beer cans from up close out to 150yds with this combo. Did as well with the powder charge of 57gr. and the rest the same as the other load. So if Y'all seen a fellow walking along the Gulf of Mexico yesterday shooting a Bp. 1876 Winchester think nothing of it . Was just me ,,,DT
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Great work all around Dusty!
Couple of questions if you don't mind. I am about to order a barrel from your friends @ Winchester Barrels for the Uberti I have. I also like the button mag guns. Always admired your 50. Another wonderful project.
Anyway I am thinking either a 23 or a 24" barrel and because the frame is so heavy I was thinking a round barrel like you did on this little carbine. Any idea the difference in weight on comparable round verses octagon? I'll be using a long and heavier butt stock I had made up and a rifle length forearm. Gun is in 45-75 with a factory 20" Octagon now (and I have a lot of brass/loaded ammo for it) but had also thought about going to 45-60 on the new barrel.
Questions?
Your suggestion on the best balanced barrel? Round or half round?
Saw you like the 45-75 in one of your posts. Thoughts on a caliber change? This is a shooter for me but never been really happy with this gun in 45-75. Never sure if it was the cartridge or the Uberti barrel/ length.
Did I see where you made up your own mag tube cap for the button mag?
Anything you want to add? Your posts have been a great inspiration to rebuild the rifle I have.
I'm thinking about having W.Barrels mill the post base out of the barrel and then using a Smith Enterprise with a set screw milled in as close to the receiver ring a possible. Will also have them use the Winchester '76 roll marks on the barrel.
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Sounds like a nice project you are starting Yahoody. The 24" HO/HR .50 CAL. with the rifle butstock balances best to me . The 22" RB even with the lighter carbine butplate and stock , AND .45 CAL. bore has a balance point at the brass lifter area . A bit farther back than the better for me junction of forend and frame of the 24" HO/HR .50 . I like the RB , but would choose the HO/HR on your build as you have an octagon cut forend on hand. As for the cal. change , If I shot smokless for the most part I.d say you would be best going with the 45/60 case . Plus it has more metal around chamber area than the 45/75. If BP. was the main powder I'd go with the 45/75 wcf it's great cartridge . I did make the button mag. plug , tube and follower from dimensions taken from Pirkles great book. If you would like one , I'd be glad to make and send you one , my contribution towards your project . Like ! the custom sight set-up idea . Been thinking on a flip-up peep sight on the dust cover . Still scratching my head on it . ,,,DT
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Dusty, you're a scholar and gentleman on top of being a first hand rifle builder. I may take you up on the button end plug. Let me get the rest of the bits and pieces in line first but I sure appreciate the offer.
We are thinking the same things I think. And I appreciate your comments on the balance. Still thinking how to sort the hexagon rifle forearm cap. Anything I am missing on a 45-60 conversion? I am thinking it is just a barrel/chamber change?
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Be glad to help . The cap will not be a problem . You are right just a barrel change . ,,,DT
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Sand wood / polish metal /// sand wood / polish metal ! Not my favorite type work. ,,,DT
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But you do it so well!! ;D
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Thanks King knew i could count on your support . ,,,,, New nickname ,,,,,(BLISTERS)
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Did get some stain on, was looking for a dark brown , instead of the normal redish brown . What do Y'all think is it dark enough ? ,,,DT Blisters. Click on pic !
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Yes, definitely looks better with dark wood, more authentic looking.
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Beautiful looking rifle. Well done!
(http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=58817.0;attach=59599;image)
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Hey Yahoody , thanks for the big picture . Starting to like this little rifle a lot, handles better than any 76 i have . Have to fill that empty dovetail in fron of the forend cap. Was thinking of a sling loop filler all in one . Or just fill it and polish . What Y'all think ? ..DT
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Dusty,
You do fine work. I wish I had your talents and maybe machinery.
BRS
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Not much for sling swivels on lever guns but that sure would be a handy way to add one to this rifle.
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Thank you BRS , Good Sunday Morning to you Sir .,,,DT
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Good Sunday morning Yahoody . Recon we do think alike . I will make a filler for it . ,,,,DT
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Dusty
That is one fine looking 76 . Hope it shoots as well as it looks . Do you plan to hunt with it ?
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Good morning as well ;D
You asked but as handy as a sling swivel would be on this gun sure would mess up its clean, unassuming lines. A sling swivel on the butt stock would be unsightly to me. I'd just put a clean and tidy (your signature work) filler wedge in that barrel and call 'er good :)
Instead of buying that new barrel I put a bunch of guns up for sale and rebuilt this one from a beater Colt I had. I do need to get on that barrel swap or just get rid of my '76 :'(
went from this:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Zz0Cm7FMWjo/WW1IXWpnvtI/AAAAAAAArx4/luVA9_SH5_wzMUuvn15tMKMRIoZ1WYP-gCLcBGAs/s1600/DSC00762.JPG)
to this... Not refinished yet but getting there.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mo4QOZDbKS4/WXFvGgUYYKI/AAAAAAAArzY/jUnJGfNtHGIWxjUo1lbgxyOlBMYvlrnAgCLcBGAs/s640/IMG_5560.JPG)
the reason for all the effort is obvious ;D It shoots really good at 25 Yards!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gTwamMPnQXg/WWv7-qOQf9I/AAAAAAAArw4/rw8V8iVlOD09Ip45VzbWb3-ktCMeJvmPgCLcBGAs/s1600/DSC00755.JPG)
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Hey Rowdy , Good Sunday Eve Amigo ! that little 76 is just to dang handy not to go hunting. Wouldnt doubt it become my everyday gun around the place. Made some varmint loads for it . Just in case you want to bring back a rabbit , or tend to a varmint without all the buck smoke and thunder. Took some .50 cal. round balls ran them through the .457 sizer , made ballets out of em. Load them over a small dose of Unique and Walla a small game poper to keep in your pocket . ,,,DT
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Yahoody that is a fine looking pistol Amigo ! No doubt its a shooter , and you my friend are a Pistol ier ! Great shooting . ,,,DT
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Misters Dusty and Yahoody, ya all are some talented folks! Thanks for sharing and keep the posts coming, this is my daily stop to see what is new!!!
P.B.
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Thanks for the reply Mr. Pinto beans . I check in every day also . Not much going on as of late . To Hot for shooting I guess . ,,DT
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Boiled linseed oil going on over the stain . One coat a day for a wk. one coat a wk. for a month. One coat a month for a yr. And one coat a yr. for life . Starting to look like a gun stock .,,,DT
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I like your style Dusty :)
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Update , went ahead anD made a mild steel filler for the dovetail under the barrel . Tapped it in tight , smoothed it down to match the barrel. Came out slick as a whistle . Cant even see it . Metal is still in the white / stocks have soaked a good bit of Linseed oil . Tried the 350 gr. 45/75 wcf original bullet over all the Swiss 2ff I could get under that bullet , my lube Win primer . That load shoots ragged hole @ 50 yds. and a fist size group at 100yd. I'm heading down to the border country in a day or two for a scout , gonna bring this little rifle for a field test . It's so light and handy it should do well . Will let Y'all know . ,,,DT
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Thanks for the update, happy hunting.
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Nice!
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Did a little shooting with the 45/60 parts gun this wk. Two different loads tried . Each were Smokeless load's 300 gr. Original cast bullet / home brew lube / 32gr. 3031 IMR and small amount of toilet paper over powder and cornmeal filler over toilet paper and under the bullet Winchester primer all squeezed together with a Winchester tong tool that gives it a light crimp . That load was very accurate out of the little gun with its 22" barrel. Less than 1-1/2" 5 shot groups at 75 yd. Also shot the same powder /cornmeal/ primer load under a 300gr. Barnes RNFP Jacketed bullet , the Barnes bullet actually shot a bit better . The brass showed no pressure signs and there was very little unburned powder in the barrel . Wiped after every 5 shots . Was a very pleasant load to shoot / Mild . A good target load for a Sunday afternoon shoot with the Boys .,,,,DT
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Shot the parts carbine 22" today with a load 57gr. Swiss 2ff , Jamison case , Win. LRP , SPG lube , 300 gr. Win. bullet as cast .457 + shot 5 @ 50 yd . then moved the target out to 100 yd. and shot 5 more on top of that first 5 . Not bad for 130+ yr. old bore and iron sights . ,,,,,,DT
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Nice shooting, DT.
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Thanks King !,,,DT
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Nice shooting Dusty, the old girl still has what it takes!
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Mr. Dusty,
Very fine shooting! I have seen some new rifles of various types that couldn't hold a patch to that old girl and no where near as good looking a shooting iron! Ya got yourself a real treasure there! Thanks for sharing the update! Keep em coming!
P.B,
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A little low right there Pard :) I am so jealous...nice shooting at both 50 and 100 and an outstanding rifle :o Congrads!
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Aw Gosh , ndnchf , pinto beans , yahoody , Y'all have me blushing . Seriously the little carbine build was one fun project , its an assemblage of old parts that I accumulated over the yrs. Having to make some of the parts makes this gun my own . I was free to build it as I would like not trying to duplicate a historical piece , what I ended up with is a great handling carbine with pretty potent power level that fits me to a "T" . Thanks for the compliments ,,,,DT
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You know Dusty, I am kinda mad at you. I got this fine little Uberti '76 replica here that was cut off and I rebuild and then had nice wood up made for it. Nice gun. But dang it your and TR's half mag guns just make way more sense to me. I put my '76 projects on hold because of you. Twice now I have about ordered a new barrel for a short mag gun but things always got in the way. Dang near bought that Texas Ranger .50 cal Cimarron is selling because of you. Now I am waiting to see if the TR half mag rifle that had at the SHOT show will eventually show up. Not like I need another '76....unless of course it is like your '76 :)
Next time i call up the barrel maker I'll be ordering. So I deleted his number to avoid him. You on the other hand keep showing me this sweet shooting, handy looking little rifle. Yep, I am still a little mad at you :)
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Winchesterbarrels.com make the call ,,,,,,,DT
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::)
:o
Now I am mad at you!
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;D ;D ;D
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LOL!! :D
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Fitted the parts gun with a SGB stock , now making a BP . The SGBP feels really good and looks OK so far . Will post more pics . as progress allows .,,,DT
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ooohh, that looks like it might be painful. I advise a nice big red rubber pad. Make it look authentic! ;) :D
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Dusty
I re read some of this catching up with Kings last post
Always struggled with drilling the long hole to fit a magazine tube in the forend (part of the reason why the few I have made have been shorter than standard + I like the shortened forend look)
Anyway last year I bought a ball end carbide cutter off ebay (got a couple and different sizes cheap) --makes that job so easy to do - I just set the blank up in the mill vice - ya can cut the first run with an ordinary end mill, then run the ball cutter through - hole is dead straight same diameter from end to end - so easy !
Also bought a 45 degree cutter that will do the barrel inlet for an octagon - so long as you figure the vice angle right for the barrel taper -
the biggest problem with all this is cleaning the chips and sawdust off the mill after the job.
All this was after the event for me - done a forend for a 92 by hand and figured there has got to be a better way than this (extension shank for a sanding drum from a dremel tool in my electric drill).
You maybe figured how to drill that long hole with a wood bit somehow? I never did but this ball cutter works a treat (using hard local timber didnt help the cause any but it comes up purty).
Good to see the interest in the 76's keep rolling along
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Greyhawk I have only built a few forearms so my set-up is kind of crude . I purchased a drill that is .750 " and has a lead screw ahead of the cutter, that is perfect for the 1876 mag. tube with just a small amount of polishing after boring through . I did learn this , I bore the magazine hole then inlet the barrel channel by using the bored magazine hole as a guide for barrel inletting . Your set-up sounds like it would be a very accurate cut . I am making a forearm and butt stock now for another project a single shot Rolling Block .50 cal. oct. barrel , the wood is very hard , its Texas Mesquite burl / root stock . On this piece I have used a router and piece of angle iron for a guide to start the barrel channel , but finishing the cut with chisel and scrapers . I must admit working the wood down is enjoyable to me and I am in no hurry ( Therapy ) . I ran across this Shotgun butt 1876 stock and decided to fit it on my parts gun , looks good to me and feels great . Should finish the butt plate and final sanding then apply the stain and oil .The SGB fits with the short forearm and short rifle theme .I agree I am glad to see some of us still interested in the 1876 rifles .,,,DT
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ooohh, that looks like it might be painful. I advise a nice big red rubber pad. Make it look authentic! ;) :D
Thanks for the tip . You better throw a log on the fire , Geeze what is it up there 100 below ?,,DT
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Been going thru a lot of logs this week. Going to have to make a trip to the farm to resupply. Bottomed out at -27 this morning. Rain scheduled for Saturday. Go figure. Back to Sub-Zero next week again. I'm moving to Wyoming.
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Been going thru a lot of logs this week. Going to have to make a trip to the farm to resupply. Bottomed out at -27 this morning. Rain scheduled for Saturday. Go figure. Back to Sub-Zero next week again. I'm moving to Wyoming.
Cant imagine how the animals are living through this cold .,,,,DT
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I imagine alot don't. My 3 cats stay inside. Wildlife know what to do, people who leave their animals outside in this weather shouldn't be allowed to have them.
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The actual work is enjoyable , but the real satisfaction I get out of it is rescueing one from extinction. If that make sense . ,,,DT
Like I've said before, if our trailer was next to your trailer when we was young'uns... we'd have been best pards. Your sentiment, sir, is exactly how I was raised as well. And I love togglebolts in obscure calibers. Well done.
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Thanks for the kind words Scrubby 2009 , I follow your thread on bringing back the old 1873 ,you being able to make the parts and actually taking the time to do it is outstanding . Bringing one back to working order by making and hand fitting the parts makes the end result even more special in my book . Look forward to seeing more of your work .,,,DT
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Greyhawk I have only built a few forearms so my set-up is kind of crude . I purchased a drill that is .750 " and has a lead screw ahead of the cutter, that is perfect for the 1876 mag. tube with just a small amount of polishing after boring through . I did learn this , I bore the magazine hole then inlet the barrel channel by using the bored magazine hole as a guide for barrel inletting . Your set-up sounds like it would be a very accurate cut . I am making a forearm and butt stock now for another project a single shot Rolling Block .50 cal. oct. barrel , the wood is very hard , its Texas Mesquite burl / root stock . On this piece I have used a router and piece of angle iron for a guide to start the barrel channel , but finishing the cut with chisel and scrapers . I must admit working the wood down is enjoyable to me and I am in no hurry ( Therapy ) . I ran across this Shotgun butt 1876 stock and decided to fit it on my parts gun , looks good to me and feels great . Should finish the butt plate and final sanding then apply the stain and oil .The SGB fits with the short forearm and short rifle theme .I agree I am glad to see some of us still interested in the 1876 rifles .,,,DT
Dusty
I have only done 4 forends (maybe 5) for 92's and two buttstocks - the butts were therapy as you say - drilling that hole in the forend - pretty darn frustrating - this back before I had a mill or lathe and trying to do it with old fashioned tools I had on hand that were more in line with boring wire holes in fenceposts than working on a gun. Have got a lot more patient with this kind of work in the last five or so years - finally learnt to take as long as it takes - Grey hair slowed me in the end I guess ;D
Made a new mgazine tube for my 45/75 a while back to eliminate the front barrel hanger - only shot it once since - looks promising but need a couple more strings shot before the jury comes back on it. Weather is cooled a bit here today - might get some powder burnt over the weekend.
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Dusty
I re read some of this catching up with Kings last post
Always struggled with drilling the long hole to fit a magazine tube in the forend (part of the reason why the few I have made have been shorter than standard + I like the shortened forend look)
Anyway last year I bought a ball end carbide cutter off ebay (got a couple and different sizes cheap) --makes that job so easy to do - I just set the blank up in the mill vice - ya can cut the first run with an ordinary end mill, then run the ball cutter through - hole is dead straight same diameter from end to end - so easy !
Also bought a 45 degree cutter that will do the barrel inlet for an octagon - so long as you figure the vice angle right for the barrel taper -
the biggest problem with all this is cleaning the chips and sawdust off the mill after the job.
All this was after the event for me - done a forend for a 92 by hand and figured there has got to be a better way than this (extension shank for a sanding drum from a dremel tool in my electric drill).
You maybe figured how to drill that long hole with a wood bit somehow? I never did but this ball cutter works a treat (using hard local timber didnt help the cause any but it comes up purty).
Good to see the interest in the 76's keep rolling along
Here is a circa 1892 photo. of the Dalton Gang , the Winchester has a very short forearm I think its a 1886 not sure , I often wondered how or why ?
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I read that all the Dalton gang had brand new 1886's for that well planned raid.
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Here is a circa 1892 photo. of the Dalton Gang , the Winchester has a very short forearm I think its a 1886 not sure , I often wondered how or why ?
I searched some photos that I could blow up some more - something dont look right about the rifle the way it sits in the picture - the buttstock lookes like its airborne - not sitting on the guys pants at all ?
Looks like an 86 - but that gun is real short - the short (really short!) forend kinda hides it but barrel is only about half of the entire length of the gun - I bet they cut it from the chamber end too - front magazine hanger is a rifle model - no backsight on the barrel - and cant see the old dovetail for the forend ....interesting piece -- a bit of a puzzle !
Permit arrived today - I pick up my Chiappa 86 on monday!!!
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Maybe there was a Coffinmaker with a WackSaw that lived at that time near Coffeeville LOL.,,,,,Sorry had a hard night ,,,DT
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This isn't my picture--it's just one that I found on the internet. It was identified as Grat Dalton's 1886 Winchester in.38-56. The notation on the photo said that it is located at the Dalton Defenders Museum in Coffeyville.
Again, I can't confirm any of this. It is just stuff from the internet.
CC Griff
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Thanks CCG , sure looks like it . Wish I knew the story on the short forearm . ,,,,DT
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I'd like to know the background too. as I recall, the daltons bought brand new revolvers just prior to the Coffeyville raid. I wonder if their rifles were new as well. I have to think that that information is out there somewhere...
CC Griff
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I'd like to know the background too. as I recall, the daltons bought brand new revolvers just prior to the Coffeyville raid. I wonder if their rifles were new as well. I have to think that that information is out there somewhere...
CC Griff
I think the info. is out there too. The Daltons met their end in 1892 I think , so the rifle should not have been that old , wish I knew if it was a special order rifle or a custom job from a frontier gunsmith and why was it done . I did read also that they had purchased some engraved nickel plated SAA revolvers , so they did fancy their guns . ,,,DT .
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Here is what I think I know :)
Grat by all accounts was a pretty good rifle shot. He use to make a tour of the local turkey shoots and clean up on the locals. The 38-56 was a lwt rifle with some power for the day in a lever gun. The rifle he took to Coffeeville (and in the museum there) was a special order "short rifle". Not too uncommon. The rifle makes since with that cartridge and his profession...on both sides of the law prior.
44-40 was the next step down and everything else was a big step up for caliber and cartridge.
They did order up new engraved Colts prior to the Coffeeville raid. A few of them have been around since them or have been re-found more recently. All have been documented to one shipment of Colt's.
Not the same with the long guns. Not everyone in the Dalton gang had a long gun @ Coffeeville.
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Cant imagine what one of those Colts would bring , big Dollars . I exploded if that's the correct word for it the pic. that CCG posted , I think the rifle is custom / gunsmith cut-down . The Magazine hanger looks to be a straight dovetail , not factory Winchester done . And where the fore end tip tenon should have been appears to be a dovetail plug . Also the magazine plug fits under the barrel ,that barrel cut for the plug tab looks to big . And last the fore end wood is definitely cut-down Take a close look and see what Y'all think . ,,,DT
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Here is what I think I know :)
Grat by all accounts was a pretty good rifle shot. He use to make a tour of the local turkey shoots and clean up on the locals. The 38-56 was a lwt rifle with some power for the day in a lever gun. The rifle he took to Coffeeville (and in the museum there) was a special order "short rifle". Not too uncommon. The rifle makes since with that cartridge and his profession...on both sides of the law prior.
Yahoody
that fits my take on the picture
have a look here ya can see the old dovetail cut for the forend where I put the arrow
Then look at the scabbard wear at the muzzle - that rifle done a lot of miles in a leather boot
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Here is what I think I know :)
Grat by all accounts was a pretty good rifle shot. He use to make a tour of the local turkey shoots and clean up on the locals. The 38-56 was a lwt rifle with some power for the day in a lever gun. The rifle he took to Coffeeville (and in the museum there) was a special order "short rifle". Not too uncommon. The rifle makes since with that cartridge and his profession...on both sides of the law prior.
Yahoody
that fits my take on the picture
have a look here ya can see the old dovetail cut for the forend where I put the arrow
Then look at the scabbard wear at the muzzle - that rifle done a lot of miles in a leather boot
Just my opinion but I reckon he made that rifle look 100% better by shorting the forend - full length forend on a trapper length barrel always looks crummy to me
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I found a higher resolution copy of the original photo, in case it helps. Of course, being limited to 400KB for photos, I had to reduce the resolution, so maybe it will look the same as the others. Maybe a close-up of the rifle will help...
CC Griff
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I must say that is a very nice looking short rifle . Would be a great one to copy . My 86 better hide or it may end up looking like that .,,,DT
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Just to add more fun to the discussion, here's another one of those "internet photos" that I can't vouch for.
CC Griff
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Just to add more fun to the discussion, here's another one of those "internet photos" that I can't vouch for.
CC Griff
Looks like those boys liked the short rifle !!!!!
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Factory short rifle or local gun smith modified, hard to tell from photos. A serial number would tell you what it left the factory as. I don't doubt it was the short forearm version of the '86 in this photo that was in Coffeeville. I think it is still in the museum there. But don't know that for a fact.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BY6DpPnjijI/XFT8BdiKSbI/AAAAAAAAvis/37oCK9SRaeMFbjNnlO_vsgm9tDjU2UuOwCLcBGAs/s1600/Grat%2527s%2B1886%2B%25281%2529.jpg)
I had to look up some old references. If they are any good I was mistaken it was Bob Dalton that was the real shooter in the bunch but all the Dalton boys could shoot is what Heck Thomas mentioned in his writings.
I was also wrong on the long guns. Some of the Daltons brought their new engraved Colts to Coffeeville that Bob had special ordered (10 of them) under an assumed name earlier. But not all 10 were there by the court records. But they also all brought Winchesters. All the guns were all rounded up and put under lock and key after the hold up. Court records identify them now. Although I have never seen the complete list. It is documented that Bob Dalton also had a 38-56 1886. It was eventually sold at a Sheriff's sale. Besides the short rifle that we see in photos supposedly there was a 38-56 1886 carbine there as well. Another nice shooting saddle gun.
Suspect there was a lot of hide and seek going on from the local law with the guns the gang used after the town shot them up and were still talking a lynching.
I have seen so much misinformation on the guns they used hard to believe much past the one short rifle Winchester and the engraved Colts belong to the Daltons. Local law in those days kept and used any firearm the took off a bad man. Many of those guns got passed along time and time again. Sure would like to see those old court records and see what they say.
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Factory short rifle or local gun smith modified, hard to tell from photos. A serial number would tell you what it left the factory as. I don't doubt it was the short forearm version of the '86 in this photo that was in Coffeeville. I think it is still in the museum there. But don't know that for a fact.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BY6DpPnjijI/XFT8BdiKSbI/AAAAAAAAvis/37oCK9SRaeMFbjNnlO_vsgm9tDjU2UuOwCLcBGAs/s1600/Grat%2527s%2B1886%2B%25281%2529.jpg)
I had to look up some old references. If they are any good I was mistaken it was Bob Dalton that was the real shooter in the bunch but all the Dalton boys could shoot is what Heck Thomas mentioned in his writings.
I was also wrong on the long guns. Some of the Daltons brought their new engraved Colts to Coffeeville that Bob had special ordered (10 of them) under an assumed name earlier. But not all 10 were there by the court records. But they also all brought Winchesters. All the guns were all rounded up and put under lock and key after the hold up. Court records identify them now. Although I have never seen the complete list. It is documented that Bob Dalton also had a 38-56 1886. It was eventually sold at a Sheriff's sale. Besides the short rifle that we see in photos supposedly there was a 38-56 1886 carbine there as well. Another nice shooting saddle gun.
Suspect there was a lot of hide and seek going on from the local law with the guns the gang used after the town shot them up and were still talking a lynching.
I have seen so much misinformation on the guns they used hard to believe much past the one short rifle Winchester and the engraved Colts belong to the Daltons. Local law in those days kept and used any firearm the took off a bad man. Many of those guns got passed along time and time again. Sure would like to see those old court records and see what they say.
Good picture !
Whoever did the job on that gun had a good eye - the shortened forend wood has put a nice balance back into the look of it
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Final scraping done sanding stain and oil next . Liking it so far .,,,DT
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Looks really good Dusty!
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Looks really good Dusty!
Thanks Yahoody , I like the SG butt stock better than the carbine stock for feel fit and looks . This is the handiest 76 I have . Cant decide on a metal finish considering a plating of tin on the receiver butt plate and fore end cap , blue barrel and CC the rest .,,,DT
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Mr. Dusty that is a fine looking rifle and coming along nicely! Thanks for sharing it with us!!
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…..I like the SG butt stock better than the carbine stock for feel fit and looks . This is the handiest 76 I have . Cant decide on a metal finish considering a plating of tin on the receiver butt plate and fore end cap , blue barrel and CC the rest .,,,DT
Compliment is well deserved. Really nice work on the rifle. I've liked it since you started the project.
Have you seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkMuHbQxNF8&feature=youtu.be
I have a button mag '73 I built 25 years ago or more now. Put a Shilen match barrel on it, in .45. It does shoot. But now I'd rather have it a 44-40 ??? Live and learn...always a good thing :-\ Nickel plated the cap, butt plate and receiver. Little long in tooth now because it has been used but I still like it.
Have yet to rebarrel my 20" '76. But it just doesn't see right with a full mag tube in a 20". Got a 1886 production '73 I want to rebarrel as well. But if wishes were pigs I could fly. Hate it when others are undecided on a project and I just haven't gotten off the dime on either of there, dang it!
Here is my nickel '73. I have two sets of wood for it. I like the original smooth set the best.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XLVbi_sRpIw/WwMElbbRPDI/AAAAAAAAt5o/GaB04HLuDbIcWh3AbcV-u8z6PaUX7BttACLcBGAs/s1600/1873n.jpg)
And my '76 before and after. I am thinking it too should be a button mag gun with a nice tapered octagon 23" barrel.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ldg27WFp7P0/WwMKGa9YUCI/AAAAAAAAt9U/dinBMTwgceErsipeQd8w93Dv7dcwndHYACLcBGAs/s1600/DSC00662.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1BHXkhL9hjw/VnTBnqP_w5I/AAAAAAAApmI/WMjX6ccP4FY/s1600/DSC03506.JPG)
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Dusty is this carbine build still 45-60 and a 22" round barrel?
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Compliment is well deserved. Really nice work on the rifle. I've liked it since you started the project.
Have you seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkMuHbQxNF8&feature=youtu.be
I have a button mag '73 I built 25 years ago or more now. Put a Shilen match barrel on it, in .45. It does shoot. But now I'd rather have it a 44-40 ??? Live and learn...always a good thing :-\ Nickel plated the cap, butt plate and receiver. Little long in tooth now because it has been used but I still like it.
Have yet to rebarrel my 20" '76. But it just doesn't see right with a full mag tube in a 20". Got a 1886 production '73 I want to rebarrel as well. But if wishes were pigs I could fly. Hate it when others are undecided on a project and I just haven't gotten off the dime on either of there, dang it!
Here is my nickel '73. I have two sets of wood for it. I like the original smooth set the best.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XLVbi_sRpIw/WwMElbbRPDI/AAAAAAAAt5o/GaB04HLuDbIcWh3AbcV-u8z6PaUX7BttACLcBGAs/s1600/1873n.jpg)
And my '76 before and after. I am thinking it too should be a button mag gun with a nice tapered octagon 23" barrel
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1BHXkhL9hjw/VnTBnqP_w5I/AAAAAAAApmI/WMjX6ccP4FY/s1600/DSC03506.JPG)
Thanks Yahoody , that is a rack full of Dandies ! You have fine taste in firearms . Leaning toward the idea of plating the project gun . I saw a 66 or 73 yrs. back that had been coated in Tin , story was it was for sea service , it had a look I would like to duplicate . A nickel coating would be very nice , like that 73 of yours . Thanks for the link to the video , I had never seen it , was very good . That is a great story that follows the Presidio gun. If I had one I'd be figuring out how to cut the fore end down to match the barrel length , that's just me . Yes the parts gun is still 22"rnd.45-60 wcf . Its a good balance rifle and cartridge combo , very handy .,,,,,DT
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Mr. Dusty that is a fine looking rifle and coming along nicely! Thanks for sharing it with us!!
How Do Mr. Pinto Beans , Very kind words Sir. Maybe I'll finish it one day and quit posting so much about the little pile of parts . Do enjoy Yacking with my Pard's LOL ,,,,DT
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Nice video of the Presidio, that big 50 looks like might hurt just a touch if hit by one. I wish spring would get here. Ice everywhere here now. If it cold, its ice.
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Nice video of the Presidio, that big 50 looks like might hurt just a touch if hit by one. I wish spring would get here. Ice everywhere here now. If it cold, its ice.
Some BIG holes in that target !,,,,DT
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Hey dusty, just wondering how your rifle is looking now?
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I just looked at those cartridges from that '86, they are not 38-56 cartridges. I own an 1886 Winchester sporting rifle in 38-56 and shoot it occasionally. The 38-56 cartridge is a 45-70 necked down to .380. Those are not 45-70 cases with that rifle.
wM1
PS there was a MAJOR difference between a 38-56 and a 44-40. Case capacity for a 38-56 was a lot more than 56gs of bp so I don't know where the 56 part of that cartridge came from.
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I just looked at those cartridges from that '86, they are not 38-56 cartridges. I own an 1886 Winchester sporting rifle in 38-56 and shoot it occasionally. The 38-56 cartridge is a 45-70 necked down to .380. Those are not 45-70 cases with that rifle.
wM1
PS there was a MAJOR difference between a 38-56 and a 44-40. Case capacity for a 38-56 was a lot more than 56gs of bp so I don't know where the 56 part of that cartridge came from.
40/82 in that pic I reckon --check it out and let us know what ya think
greyhawk
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Hey dusty, just wondering how your rifle is looking now?
I did finally get the parts rifle blued , came out fairly good a dark blue . The wood has taken on a dark look , this one I used a dark red / brown stain in place of the usual Winchester Red Oil . Have been shooting the little rifle from time to time and it is a good shooter with the 296 bullet over Swiss 2ff , it's not much bigger than my 73 .44 carbine and handles very well. For some reason when I try and post a pic nowday's it kick's my post out saying my picture is too big . Funny part is I use the method of picture posting as in the past . Anyhow the little gun is finished and getting some use now and again . Thank's for asking Nativeshootist , Amigo .,,,,DT
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The pic of Grats rifle was a 38-56, I guess I looked at another pic and then replied to Yahoody's post about the 44-40 being the next step down from a 38-56. Too many pics.
:D
wM1
PS I checked the other one that did look like a 40-82.
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The pic of Grats rifle was a 38-56, I guess I looked at another pic and then replied to Yahoody's post about the 44-40 being the next step down from a 38-56. Too many pics.
:D
wM1
PS I checked the other one that did look like a 40-82.
Thats the pic they labeled Bob Daltons gun
The other pic a couple posts above it - thats the Dalton Gun from the museum - I loked at that some more (tying to identify the brass in the pic as 38/56) dang it I reckon that is 45 colt ammo (or maybe 44/40 that was my first guess) - at first I thought they was longer ammo with noses in holes in the gun case but nope - looks like someone just put whatever was handy in with that rifle for effect.
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Yer probably right a 38-56 has quite a bit of taper before it is necked down.
wM1
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I did finally get the parts rifle blued , came out fairly good a dark blue . The wood has taken on a dark look , this one I used a dark red / brown stain in place of the usual Winchester Red Oil . Have been shooting the little rifle from time to time and it is a good shooter with the 296 bullet over Swiss 2ff , it's not much bigger than my 73 .44 carbine and handles very well. For some reason when I try and post a pic nowday's it kick's my post out saying my picture is too big . Funny part is I use the method of picture posting as in the past . Anyhow the little gun is finished and getting some use now and again . Thank's for asking Nativeshootist , Amigo .,,,,DT
The parts gun .,,,DT
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Another,,,DT
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And last .,,,DT
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Finally a photo we can actually see so we can admire your rifle building skills, very nice work Dusty.
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Great looking shooter, DT. Looks practically new! Well done!
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Finally a photo we can actually see so we can admire your rifle building skills, very nice work Dusty.
Thanks Ed coming from you that means a lot . The little rifle is rough around the edges , not a lot of time spent on detail. But still a good shooter instead of a pile of parts sitting in a drawer . I know I Aint No Photographer . I barley got one to stick on the forum . ,,,,,LOL DT .
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Great looking shooter, DT. Looks practically new! Well done!
Recon It will kill a hog ! ,,,DT
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"mighty fine rifle gun!!!" to quote from the movie Sgt York!! Well Done!!
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Recon It will kill a hog ! ,,,DT
Speaking of that, when?
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Speaking of that, when?
Look's like the Fall before the ranch will be clear of the mill construction . Doubt any sooner . Will keep you posted .,,,DT
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Check your pm, DT