Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => STORM => Topic started by: Slamfire on September 21, 2012, 09:43:46 PM
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I guess i'm just askin an old question, i haven't read any thing about a "71-72 OPT", in 44/40, wouln't they seal off better at the cone being a bottle neck case????
Hootnix.
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They won't fit. The 71 cylinder is about .050" smaller in diameter than a SAA and the arbor hole is far larger than the base pin hole in a SAA. There just isn't enough room for the .44-40 rims.
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Thank's for the info., what about .44 spl.??? I have a old interarms .44 mag. i got back around 80-81, so i can justa-fie a opt in .44 spl., other wise it looks like a .38 spl. for fast draw & plinkin, ( just at home). Read to much on the .45 to make me not want one.
Hootnix.
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Both '72 Opentops and conversions are available in 44 spcl. It's a great caliber. And if you get a hankerin' you can shoot 44 Colt or Russian in it.
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Having done more reading , here, it seems that the .38 spl. is having less issues than the other cals. From past experience, we all know when we buy a new gun , "WE TAKES OUR CHANCES". Back in the mid 70's i bought a new .357 blackhawk ( old flattop modle), took it out of the box,,,klunk!!! the the ejector rod & sleeve fell off,,it seems the screw hole that held it on was bored full through, not tapered, one off a ruger .22 fit it perfectly. thanks for all info.,
Hootnix
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The only issue which seems to crop up is the occasional cracked forcing cone on the .45's. I've been shooting a .44Colt Open Top heavily for 6yrs and an 1860 Richards Type II for three years and have had no problems whatsoever. Nor have I heard of any. As stated, there isn't enough room for the big rim on the .38 and .44 WCF's. I don't like the .45Colt because it's not period correct for these guns. Plus I'm a .44 fan and despise the fact that many new replicas are only available in the overly popular .38Spl and .45Colt. The .44Colt is loaded with modern inside lubed cast bullets but at least it's closer than the alternatives. The .44Spl is also never a bad choice.
PS, you didn't buy a "new" flat-top in the mid 1970's unless it was very old stock. They stopped making them in 1962.
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Craig,,you are correct,about the ruger ,i bought it in 68, my son was 2 yrs. old i found it in a gun/hardware store , did't have the money to buy that day( i was on a trip away from home). A friend had a gun repair shop and i told him about it , he called me aweek or so later to come by,he bought the gun paid the shipping sold it to me , "92.00". It was in a blackhawk box, which i used for years to hold odds& ends. And i toolike the .44's , ithink i would like to try one out, but most fellers herebouts do the auto feed everything, not my cup of coffee. Thanks for the reply's , if i find one round here i"ll holler back.
Hootnix
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I remember seeing (on one of these Cowboy shooters websites) photos of a 44-40 Opentop someone made from a SAA. It was very well done, and other than the recognizable fluted SAA cylinder, was duifficult to believe it wasn't a production revolver. Made me want to find a thrashed SAA to convert.
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Howdy Flint, I think that pc., would be worth alook!! The thing about all the reading on which cal., ,and each problem's each have has makes one really ,,ponder ,,,ponder .
Hootnix.
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I believe that Oglesby & Oglesby has built such custom Open Tops based on Colt SAA's and/or Ruger Vaqueros.
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You know, pards, it's interesting, because on page 283 of Bruce McDowell's "Colt Conversions" book, there is a photo of an original Open Top that has been converted to .44WCF/.44-40. So, it was possible to do so on the originals! The one pictured also has a 5 3/8" barrel, which McDowell believes was manufactured by the Colt factory that way and not shortened afterwards. And it has the Army-size grip, so it's a later production revolver.
Regards,
Jake
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Like I said in my post on conversion calibres, one should never say never. Search hard enough and you'll find a hitherto unknown variation. If it can be done, someone will do it.
We all remember when an open top gun was strictly a custom proposition and beyond the means of most. Now you pays you money and takes you choice!
I too am a fan of the 44-40 and .44 Spl. I got a mite resentful when it became popular to chamber CAS rifles and carbines in .45 Colt. Makes sense if your pistols are also .45s, just like it did to have both in 44-40.
I shot in a possee last summer with two guys shooting 'Frontier Cartridge' with .45 OTs. These guys were not fudging on their loads and it was quite impressive to watch! I wondered how longs those guns were going to stand up to that pounding.
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The .44-40's rims are only slightly larger than the .44 rimfire's so it is probable that such a conversion would've worked with some factory loads without rim interference. However, it would've been impossible to cut proper .44-40 chambers in a .44 rimfire cylinder, as the .44-40's necks are much smaller than the rimfire. Not to mention a .427-.428" bullet rattling down a .454" bore.
I got a mite resentful when it became popular to chamber CAS rifles and carbines in .45 Colt.
I agree. For me, it kinda ruins it for only the .45Colt and .38Spl to be very popular. Because the .45 was never offered in rifles until recent years and the .38Spl doesn't belong at all. Quite a few guns are only available in those two chamberings and I have a hard time swallowing it. The WCF's in particular work much better in rifles, especially shooting light loads or blackpowder. I get tired of my late model Winchester 1892 .45Colt spitting in my face because the pressure is not high enough for the cases to seal against the chamber walls. No problem whatsoever with the WCF's. I'm just glad we can still get rifles in the WCF's, 1860's and Open Tops in .44Colt. Makes me happy. ;D
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Craig
You could get around the .45 Colt case smudging problem by annealing all your brass. It would be a PITA, but some guys are doing it.
As for the .38 Spl., it's close enough to the Colt .38 CF rounds and holds the same amount of BP, so it's not that much of an historical aberration. Loaded to full potential with 158 gr bullets, it's far less 'gamey' than light loads in the .45, smokeless or BP.
When I first got into CAS, it was with one gun and usually a .44 or .45 loaded pretty warm. You were looked at somewhat askance if you shot a .38/.357 pistol or carbine; 'light in your Lamas', as it were.
It was the late 'China Camp' and his wife who made the .38 Spl. king in CAS by becoming Top Guns with their factory load .38 Spl. guns. Then the race was on ..... we were now shooting IPSC in Cowboy boots, exactly what the founders of SASS wanted to get away from.
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I think I'd rather use the WCF's than have to anneal cases. Plus I need my .45Colt cases to do other things. That and the fact that everybody is running a .45 is enough to turn me off. I don't have too much of a problem with the .38. It is "close enough" to the .38LC and doesn't tweak my OCD at all in certain guns. I bought a USFA Rodeo II in .38Spl just for economical plinking and practice. Still lusting after an 1851 Richards-Mason or two as well. I guess we all have our weird preferences, for real and imagined reasons. ;)
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44-40s shot with BP hit the dirt looking pretty clean due to the great gas seal of the thin wall brass. Same for the guns.
I long ago started to anneal my BPCR brass after i lost several that had work hardened and split, but I look at the amount of .38 Spl. and .45 Colt brass I have and think ..... maybe not ..... Of course all I would have to do is segregate some designated BP cases, but that has never worked for me in the past.
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CraigC, where do you get the .454" bore diameter? The bore diameter of an original Open Top in .44 Henry is as follows:
Land-to-land measurement: .420"
groove to groove measurement: .440"
bullet diameter of the Stetson swaged .44 Henry Flat cartridge: .427
These all would match up rather nicely with a .44WCF/.44-40 round. So there would be no problem with the barrel dimensions of a converted original Open Top top .44WCF. I believe we may be getting the .44 Henry Rimfire confused with the .44 Colt, which did use a bullet of .454 diameter for use in the original percussion ".44" bore of .454".
This info all comes from McDowell's book.
Regards,
Jake
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I'm still learning my way around McDowell's book.
Cartridges of the World lists the bullet diameter of the .44Henry Flat as .446".
I didn't intend to type ".454 bore" and there probably is some .44Colt info from my brain getting worked in there somewhere. It's been a long week.
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No problem, Craig! I feel the same! Wasn't trying to slight you in any way, pard! I've found McDowell's book to be an absolute storehouse of valuable information regarding all the cartridge conversions and open top revolvers. I've always wanted a modern, Uberti Open Top in .44WCF. I haven't taken the time to measure everything, but have wondered if you couldn't get a .38 special cylinder and have it bored out for .44WCF and use it with a .44 caliber barrel.
Regards,
Jake
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...I haven't taken the time to measure everything, but have wondered if you couldn't get a .38 special cylinder and have it bored out for .44WCF and use it with a .44 caliber barrel....
Howdy Jake. I'm not sure about this, but seem to recall hearing before that the bolt notches in the .38 cylinders are cut deeper than in the larger caliber cylinders. That would be something to check out before proceeding with such a re-chambering.
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Howdy Abilene! Great hearing from you! I've heard that as well, and it definitely would be something to take into account. I believe I also remember Bronco Birnbaum researching this back when the Open Tops first came available (the old Traditional Effects days!). But I don't remember what conclusion he came to, with regards to a conversion.
Hope to see you soon, pard!
Regards,
Jake
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I've found McDowell's book to be an absolute storehouse of valuable information regarding all the cartridge conversions and open top revolvers.
Thanks! I waited for an affordable copy of his book for a long time. When I first started looking, they were $150-$200. I finally found a copy on Amazon a couple months ago for $70 and ordered it posthaste. I had always heard it was the definitive work on the subject but had no idea just how much technical data would be found inside. He really did a fantastic job putting it all together. Dennis Adler's books have great photos but the amount of information in McDowell's book is staggering!
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Just to throw some "fun" in the mix, the Uberti Open Top chambered in .45 Schofield will accept 6 44-40 cartridges with no interference at all. Just drop right in. Now, I do have an issue with the Open Top being chambered in .45 or 44-40. The cylinder wall is very thin indeed. The cylinder does pass proof with SAMMI level .45 ammunition and I don't doubt SAMMI level 44-40 would also pass proof. Just. I doubt there is much wiggle room and anyone dumb enough to push the load will be holding gun "parts" in their hand.
I have worked on quite a few original conversions and several reproductions chambered in .44 (original) and .45 (modern reproduction) that spit out the little bit of metal at the bottom of the cylinder notches. Very common and the guns continue to function just fine and safely without that little bit of "bottom."
To DIY your own 44-40 OpenTop, you'll need a .44 Barrel and either a 44 Colt cylinder or .38 cylinder. The star on either will need to be recut and the cylinder rechambered. Your also going to be stuck with .430 bullet diameter to match the barrel.
So, it can be done. Considering the thinness of the cylinder walls, I wouldn't personally recommend it and there may be some difficulty finding someone to do it.
Coffinmaker
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...To DIY your own 44-40 OpenTop, you'll need a .44 Barrel and either a 44 Colt cylinder or .38 cylinder. The star on either will need to be recut and the cylinder rechambered. Your also going to be stuck with .430 bullet diameter to match the barrel. ...
Coffinmaker, why would the star need to be re-cut?
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Abilene,
The star "may" be a bit tight for the 44-40 rim with a .38 cylinder. I didn't spec out the necessary changes to a .38 cylinder, since I wasn't actually going to do the re-chamber. There may actually be enough cut in the .38 star for 44-40 rim clearance but I didn't see any need to spec it out from the center axis of the .38 chamber as I'm not going to actually do the work.
Coffinmaker
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Okay, I understand what you are saying about the star, although it seems that no shaving of the sides would be necessary if the brass all dropped in to the .45 cylinder okay. Anyway, I'm gonna play the naysayer here and explain why I don't think it can be done. First, with a .38 cylinder, like I told Jake I think the bolt notches on those are deeper than the .44's and '45's. So yeah, it could be done but who would want to knowing the bolt notches are very likely to get blown out, even if they knew it would still be functional. I had heard that some of the early .45 S&W Opentop cylinders had the bolt notches accidently cut to the .38 depth by Uberti and a lot of those blew out. Now, if it turns out that info about the .38 notches being deeper is not correct, then I withdraw my comments :)
And as for using a .44 Colt cylinder, 44 Colt brass is slightly longer than the straight portion of 44-40 below the neck. So you couldn't re-chamber the cylinder with the necked portion where it needs to be, the hole is already too big at that point. I think Uberti made some early OT's in .44 Russian. I know they were marked that way. If the cylinder was actually chambered for .44 Russian, and you could find one of those, now THAT would work for re-chambering! Otherwise a machinist would have to manufacture a cylinder from scratch (Hey Raven, how much would that cost? ;D )
disclaimer: I'm not a gunsmith! So if my logic is incorrect, let me know. Because I think a 44-40 OT would be way cool, too. And certainly no more problematic than a 45LC OT.
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Abilene,
You are correct about the cylinder notches on the .38 cylinder. They are cut some (I've never actually measured how much) deeper than a .45 cylinder. More recent guns from Uberti have also spit the bottom of the notch out but other than looking a little funny, they function just fine.
My first set of Open Tops were chambered .45 Schofield. Then I added .44 and .38 barrel/cylinder sets. Really versatile. My main match guns for about 10 years. Finally had to replace a worn firing pin. Once set up, really reliable guns. When I shoot them as 45s, I shoot a real light gamer load and have had no problems. Knock Wood!
Coffinmaker
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One-Off custom made cylinders ....about $800 :o
Raven
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And ..... The chamber walls are still going to be ..... too thin.
Coffinmaker
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And ..... The chamber walls are still going to be ..... too thin.
Coffinmaker
I agree!!!!
Raven
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If I wanted to have a spare Opentop for the two original .44 Colt toys that Santa is bringing me for Christmas, would a .45 barrel and a .44 special cylinder reemed out to .44 original work?
Justician
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No. Original Colt Open Tops and Uberti parts won't mix. Original Open Tops are .44 Henry Flat Rim Fire. Have you found a source for rim fire ammunition????
Coffinmaker
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I'm sorry, I miscommunicated about this.
I will be receiving two Second Generation 1860s converted to the .44 Colt original caliber.
To turn one of my Uberti 71/72 Opentops into a spare for them, could I buy a .45 barrel then have a .44 special cylinder bored out to accomodate the original Colt .44 caliber bullet (which is really a heel base .45)?
Justician