Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1876 => Topic started by: GeezerD on May 20, 2012, 07:08:39 AM
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I just bought a new Chapperal 1876 short rifle in 50-95 on Gunbroker for $500. The pictures look good but I haven't laid my hands on it yet. I discovered this forum while doing research on the rifle. It appears they have had some problems in the past.
I am hoping this is one of the good ones, but time will tell. It is just that I have always wanted a 50 caliber levergun and I can't afford another mortgage. ----------------------------------- GeezerD 8)
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Congratulations, looking forward to seeing, hearing more about it. 8)
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The sights have got to go. I will replace them with an original semi-buckhorn Winchester rear sight and a Marbles brass bead front sight. The bore slugs at about .510 dia. so I have a pretty good selection of bullets available. In just eyeballing the rifling it appears to make about a half a turn in about 20 inches. The one serious issue I see is the flat on the bottom of the firing pin that overides the hammer is so long and deep it just barely cocks the hammer. Also the firing pin can rotate about 30 degrees against the retractor.
I have an original 1876 apart on my bench to compare it to when I tear it down. I will probably just make a new FP in my lathe.
Overall it looks like a pretty decent 1876 " Kit " for the money.
I will try to post some photos when I get a chance. --------------------------------------- GeezerD :-\
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Well Geezer sounds like your off to a fairly good start and like myself it`s good when ya can make some of the parts.
Thanks for the up-date and looking forward to the pics and range report. 8)
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I have taken this rifle completly apart and other than the usual deburring and polishing the firing pin and retractor need to be replaced, the bolt face and rim support nub at the bottom of the bolt face need to be reworked,and I will replace the sights.
I measure the twist rate at 1 in 36 inches and groove diameter at a tight .511 so it should handle a variety of bullets up to 400gr.
or maybe a bit more. The magazine tube is retained by a lip on the magazine cap and an oversize pin through the mag. support ring, which addresses one of the common complaints.
The only screw I had trouble removing was the filler screw in the front tang sight mounting hole. Overall fit and finish are acceptable.
In spite of the stocks being made out of some kind of hardwood, they look surprisingly like vintage walnut.
The importer is Tri-Star S.A. Ltd. so I am not sure when it was made. ------------------------------- GeezerD
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I received a new firing pin, firing pin retractor, and extractor from "winchester bob" today. They are of excellent quality and reasonably priced w/tolerences on the high end for proper fitting. I highly recommend him as a source for vintage Winchester parts. ------------ GeezerD
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I have completely refit the links. Replaced the pins with oversized pins to reduce clearence to about .001 - laser welded the ends of both links and refit to both the frame and bolt. Now the headspace is only about .048, needs to be .062
So now I need to cut the boltface back .014 and then weld up the rim support tab and reshape same. The ammunition factory is up and running, but I am still trying to locate a bullet mold for the correct weight and crimp groove location.
A $500 rifle + $1000 in parts and labor ------ I t's a good thing I work cheap.
GeezerD
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I have completely refit the links. Replaced the pins with oversized pins to reduce clearence to about .001 - laser welded the ends of both links and refit to both the frame and bolt. Now the headspace is only about .048, needs to be .062
So now I need to cut the boltface back .014 and then weld up the rim support tab and reshape same. The ammunition factory is up and running, but I am still trying to locate a bullet mold for the correct weight and crimp groove location.
A $500 rifle + $1000 in parts and labor ------ I t's a good thing I work cheap.
GeezerD
I am impressed with your talents, and with your tenacity! Bravo Zulu! ;D
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What a journey this has been. In adjusting the headspace, I found that the face of the chamber was out of square .006 and the extractor relief cut was about .060 too deep. Also the barrel was turned in a bit too far.
I removed the barrel which appeared to be retained with some kind of thread compound, and cut the shoulder back by one thread ( about .050 ) and reset the headspace. That solves the extractor cut and breechface issues but the chamber is .050 short.
Now that the barrel is square to the receiver, I am going to refit and bed the forend flush with the nose cap and receiver. And while I am at it, I might as well bed the buttstock.
I think I will just tweak my handloads and dies to fit instead of buying a chambering reamer. After being a tool and diemaker for over 40 years, I am a bit OCD on details.
I just hope all of this can be of some help to those of you that have a "Sick" Chapparel rifle.
Stay Tuned, GeezerD :-\
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I have a Chapperal "66 and I shot 6 stages with it last weekend and without a hiccup.
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I just finished turning the barrel one thread deeper into the receiver and removed .060 from the chamber face to correct the headspace. My handloads are formed and loaded in RCBS Legacy dies and they still chamber fine, even after shortening the chamber .060.
All that remains to be done (I hope) is to weld and refit the cartridge support lip at the bottom of the boltface and a bit of refitting on the mag tube and forend to shorten them up. ---------------- GeezerD
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A few more issues that needed to be addressed -
1 - Mag tube ring I.D. was about .020 larger than the tube and stood .012 above the radius cut on the bottom of the barrel and was squeezed egg shaped to eliminate slop. Machined I.D. to match radius on bottom of the barrel and then split the ring and TIG welded around a mandrel of the correct diameter.
2 - Mag tube plug was .015 smaller than mag tube I.D.
3 - Made oversize screws for the lever and hammer to eliminate excessive slop.
4 - Made a new stainless mag follower with a little larger diameter.
5 - Reduced the tension on both the sear/trigger spring and lever safety spring.
I think I am getting to the point where engraving " Made In America" on it would not be out of line. ------------- GeezerD
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These pics show the barrel after being set back one thread and recutting the breechface to correct headspace and barrel alignment, also a new SS follower. The second pic is of the boltface after laser welding and truing, TIG welding and rebuilding the rim support tab and installing a new extractor from Winchester Bob.
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I think I am getting to the point where engraving " Made In America" on it would not be out of line. ------------- GeezerD
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I'm impressed with your ability to do all this work. Looks like it's coming along.
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If my Chapperal and the 2 others I have checked out are typical, these 3 components need to be replaced. The firing pin and retractor from Winchester Bob are pretty much a drop in. The extractor requires a bit of fitting. You can see some of the obvious differences in the photo. I don't know what they were thinking when they ground so much off the rear of the firing pin. When the action is closed the firing pin is no longer supported by the back of the receiver. --------------- GeezerD
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Here are some of the areas that needed to be welded to correct the headspace and bolt detail. ----------- GeezerD
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This is a stainless steel follower that is slightly larger in diameter and a bit longer to increase stability, also the original mag spring is soft and should be replaced. ------------- GeezerD
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Geezer
Can you give me a bit of detail regarding fitting the extractor you received from Winchester Bob?
This always ends up being the "sore spot" on these CrapparALL's and I have one that drops the case sometimes on extraction.
Thanks, HH
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HH - Most often the culprit is the rim support tab at the bottom of the boltface. It has either been over-fitted (For lack of a better term) or broken and gone completely. In which case the bolt must be TIG welded and remachined. Fitting the extractor would be done after the boltface is checked out and corrected if need be. If you could PM a good photo of your boltface, I could give you a better idea of what needs to be done. I think that the folks at Chapperal started out with some decent parts, and then ruined them during the fitting process.
Before the extractor can be properly fit, you need to make sure the headspace is correct. All of the Chapperal 1876 rifles that I have checked out, had excess headspace. Excessive headspace effects the point at which the extractor hook engages the cartridge rim. My rifle had almost .020 to much headspace. Headspace can be checked by feeler gages between the boltface and a chambered cartridge case when the action is closed. If the headspace and boltface are good then Winchester Bobs extractor is nearly a drop-in part other than stoning the rear of the extractor until the pin can be installed with slight resistance.
Correcting excess headspace is a little more complicated but can be done by adding length to the links and installing oversize pins.
------------------------------ GeezerD
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Geezer
Fully aware of the inadequacies of the Crapparal! Rode this horse many years ago............
I have corrected these faults on many fellers rifles in the past but the extractors were un-availabe at the time. The issue that I still have left on this 45-75 is that the "groove" or area before the extractor hook is too long and I wondered how well the one you bought fit and what fitting was necessary, mainly does it fit the cut in the bolt? Too wide I can deal with, too narrow, not good. Is the pin hole in the correct location?
Those are my concerns.
Thanks in advance!
HH
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Here is an inlay I did on the buttstock, kind of like putting lipstick on a pig. ------------ GeezerD
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After a little over 7 months, my 1876 Chapperal is back together and functions perfectly. Now for some load development and range time. Here's a pic of my outfit, befitting an over the hill prairie-rat like myself. ------------- GeezerD ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D YEEEE--HAW
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Geezer D
Hope it shoots as good as it looks .
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Parts replaced with new from Winchester Bob
Firing pin and retractor
Extractor
Magazine spring
Lever safety spring
Front and rear sights ( original winchester semi buckhorn rear and Marbles brass bead front )
Screws
Lever latch spring and pin
Parts made or repaired
Bolt face welded and machined to correct convex condition and missing rim support tab
Barrel set back one thread to correct headspace and register
Links welded and refit
Oversize link and lever pins
Oversize hammer and lever pivot screws
Magazine follower
Stock refinished and acraglased
Magazine ring
Forend cap tenon
Action deburred and polished where needed
Bore lapped and polished
Hammer checkering recut
GeezerD
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Congratulations on a fine job, and a most informative thread! :)
I am going to make this thread a Sticky - just means it will stay at the top of the heap so folks can easily refer to it.
Thanks for your contribution, Geezer. :)
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Well, I made it to the range today. My initial loading is a 365 gr cast bullet w/ SPG lube .512 dia in front of 16 gr of Trail Boss powder. Loaded in cases formed from Starline 50-90 Sharps brass w/ CCI magnum rifle primer. COL = 2.275 in. Feed and function was without problems. I only had 10 rds loaded, so I fired 2 - 5rd groups at 50yds. Both groups were about 2 1/2 inches and I think that is acceptable considering my eyesight and the buckhorn sights.
GeezerD
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Great thread, great work and great shooting pard. 8)
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In reloading the first batch of fired cases, I notice that the shoulder is behind where the shoulder is formed with the RCBS full length resizing die. So in effect I am only neck sizing the cases. And this is after setting the barrel back .050 to correct the headspace. From what I have read, there are no hard and fast dimensions for the 50-95 wcf chamber but Chapperal must have just picked some numbers out of the air.
However, case expansion is minimal and I don't anticipate any serious problems. It seems to work well in arctic conditions but I hope spring gets here soon. -------------------------------- GeezerD
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Geezer, it is wonderful to see an out-of-spec rifle brought into full compliance by a talented machinist.
;)
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Sheesh ... looks like all the rumours about Chapparal guns is right!
I have a line on a nice looking '73 octagonal carbine in 44-40, but .... I'm not up to rebuilding it, nor do I care to farm the work out to get a proper working rifle.