Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Okefinokee Outlaw on March 06, 2012, 08:46:11 AM
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I saw a post in another CAS topic stating that the existence of 20" barrelled shotguns has not been documented. This would be good news, since I would have a good reason to purchase another shotgun.
Might anyone have any info on this?
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I dont have any info on the availability of 20" guns, but the bulk of the shotguns made in the US or Imported from England, Belgium, and France were 30 or 32". When you go to your local gun show or at least around the North Texas area you very seldom see a pre 1900 shotgun with a short barrel. I would guess the ratio to be 1 short gun to ever 250 to 300 long guns. I would venture a guess that 99% of the short barrel guns I have seen were cut off at later date as most I have seen have no choke.
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Stoeger Coach Guns come in 20 inch barrel...CC
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-coach-guns.php
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Cash, I know they're available (I have 2), but if not historically accurate, I will replace with longer barrelled guns.
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Don't chuck you short barrelled doubles yet. There is documentation out there. I will follow-up later when I have my library at hand.
Books
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I saw a post in another CAS topic stating that the existence of 20" barrelled shotguns has not been documented. This would be good news, since I would have a good reason to purchase another shotgun.
Might anyone have any info on this?
Yeah! Camille Eonich seems to identify me with NCOWS, which is flattering. She says she likes her sawdoff '97 but doesn't know what the historians at NCOWS (National Congress of Old Whiskey Sippers ???) would say about the PC of barkeeps guns?
I am an Alone Ranger and have never attended, or competed at, an NCOWS match. I'm not aware of any rule prohibbiting them but what is the practise? Of course, the majority don't use shotties at all in the Working Cowboy class.
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I saw a post in another CAS topic stating that the existence of 20" barrelled shotguns has not been documented. This would be good news, since I would have a good reason to purchase another shotgun.
Might anyone have any info on this?
This is good "hard" evidence:
RL Wilson "The Book of Colt Firearms, 3rd Ed." pp.483-490. The 1878 Hammered Colt SxS was produced in factory lengths from 18" to 34". The 1883 Hammerless Colt SxS was offered in 18" to 36" barrel lengths. Wilson does note that 28", 30", and 32" were the standard lengths.
Madis "The Winchester Book". He notes the Winchester 1887 and 1897 were produced in 20" barrel lengths as "Guard" or "Riot" guns. The '97 was also offered (post 1900) in 20" "Trench" variation with the bayonet lug.
So there is documentation, but to back up Tascosa's writing I have a handful of pre-1900 hardware catalogs. Browsing through two (N. Curry & Bro. San Francisco, 1884 and George W. Harder's, Williamsport, PA, 1890) shows that ALL of the sporting SxS shotguns (Ithaca, Parker, Remington, etc...) were only offered by these retailers to the public in 28", 30" or 32" models. This tells us that the "shorties" were not common and factory special orders.
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I have a SxS that has short barrels and dates from the 1880s period. It's an old mule eard external hammer coach gun. I still shoot it but only use dove or light loads due to it's age. I'll post some pics when I get the chance.
Someone could have bobbed the barrels but if they did it had to be a long time ago.
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I did not mean to say there weren't any 20" or shorter, just that the long barrels are much more common. I am sort of a collector of American Double Guns and I have several from 3 of the 5 big American makers. 30" seems to be the most common. Followed by 28 then 32. All other barrel lengths were special order. I have seen several commercial '97 Winchesters over the years with 20" barrels from the factory. All were marked Cyl. 9 times out of 10 on a short '97 if it says anything but Cyl it has been cut off.
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I have seen a 20 inch coach gun that was carried by the shotgun guard on the Deadwood stage coach. I don't know who bought the gun, but it had a letter with it that told where it came from and where it was used. As today shotgun barrels are cut down, do you not think they were cut down also in the 1800's. If the ideal is to call 20 inch coach guns incorrect, then that is a pretty poor ideal. After all they are called coach guns. Tj :o ::)
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I haven't taken the time or effort to find out the brand of this shotgun but it is a solid gun and shoots well. It's a 12 guage and accurate as can be. I'm currently using a new model SxS with exposed hammers in 20 guage that can take the modern loads.
I've put this old timer in my safe to keep in usable condition. I only paid $150 for it a few years ago and have been happy with it since that day.
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I like my Stoger, too bad they don't make a hammered.
Expensive, but I am very happy with my CZ-Hammered, (Huglu).
Brian
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I'm in agreement with Tacosy Joseph. While the longer barrels were much more common, the shorties DO exist. Matter of fact, Pedersoli has just released a percussion hammer that has VERY short barrels. 10" or so. It is aimed toward the Confederate Cavalry folks, because they were not uncommonly found used there. They are WAAAAAAY cool looking guns, and because of their percussion status, they don't run afoul of BATF.
For example:
http://www.cabelas.com/black-powder-davide-pedersoli-20-gauge-double-barrel-coach-shotgun.shtml
Long barreled shoot-guns weren't the ONLY ones available.
;D
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I am an Alone Ranger and have never attended, or competed at, an NCOWS match.
We need to change that Sir Charles. ;)
You are welcome to join us in a match down in Texas anytime. I think you'd enjoy the experience. October is our Southwest Regional. (www.bergersharpshooters.com)
If you get yourself down here, I'll supply the guns, leather, and ammo. I don't share hats, so you'll need your own. ;D
Pancho
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I have seen a 20 inch coach gun that was carried by the shotgun guard on the Deadwood stage coach. I don't know who bought the gun, but it had a letter with it that told where it came from and where it was used. As today shotgun barrels are cut down, do you not think they were cut down also in the 1800's. If the ideal is to call 20 inch coach guns incorrect, then that is a pretty poor ideal. After all they are called coach guns. Tj :o ::)
T-J you are jumping the gun here. Nobody is trying to outlaw anything, we are just having a discusssion. I also think O/O is looking for an excuse to buy a new shotgun and blame it on us. LOL
T-Joe
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That is true T/J. I really didn't mean to start an argument. But I still think I need one. I'll think of another reason. I'd really like an original, but the prices I'm seeing are a bit high for me.
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Other than complying with the Federal Firearms Act of 1934, NCOWS has no restrictions on barrel lengths.
Books
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Joe, Sometimes I have the ability to do that. Tj
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That is true T/J. But I still think I need one. I'll think of another reason. I'd really like an original, but the prices I'm seeing are a bit high for me.
Okefinokee Outlaw,
I had the itch last fall to carry a long barreled double at NCOWS matches. I don't want to destroy an original, so I picked up this:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40369.0.html
I got it from 3 B Shooting Supply. His price on these is amazingly low. I think he has a few more in stock.
I really enjoy shooting it.
Pancho
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Don't tell Black Bart they were neither there nor used:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/angry_idol/6041281631/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/angry_idol/6041281631/)
I find my Moore & Co. just the ticket when confronted by those pesky Pinkertons:
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/belgiansawedoff.jpg)
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O/O, Might want to check with Rowdy. Think he got a long barrrel TTN copy of the Colt coach gun. He has even used it to hunt with. Tj
Also sorry for getting the wrong idea, just seems of late every thing I read is about changing something. Do hope you find a really great shotgun. Tj
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I wouldn't surprise me to learn that there were 250 long barreled shotguns for each coach gun. Even now there are more shotguns bought for hunting and sport than for defense. Right now we have one coach gun and two hunting type shotguns at my house.
I do think o/o must buy a long barreled shotgun as a tribute to all the sod busters who carried one West.
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We need to change that Sir Charles. ;)
You are welcome to join us in a match down in Texas anytime. I think you'd enjoy the experience. October is our Southwest Regional. (www.bergersharpshooters.com)
If you get yourself down here, I'll supply the guns, leather, and ammo. I don't share hats, so you'll need your own. ;D
Pancho
The closest I got to you was El Paso. That was still 11 hours drive away. YUP Pards; Texas is BIG! 8)
Now my buddy has passed on, a visit anytime soon is not very likely. :'( :'( :'(
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Okefinokee Outlaw,
I had the itch last fall to carry a long barreled double at NCOWS matches. I don't want to destroy an original, so I picked up this:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40369.0.html
I got it from 3 B Shooting Supply. His price on these is amazingly low. I think he has a few more in stock.
I really enjoy shooting it.
Pancho
Pancho; Don't talk too loudly about how effective longer barreled shotguns are, or we will lose our advantage! :D
I think we should start a board for "closet gamers" ;D ;D
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Shotgun Franklin, I agree. I simply must buy one as a tribute. I'll start by selling my CZ/Huglu hammer coach gun, which will propel into my search.
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The TTn longer barrel was short lived, not many were imported. I think only Cimarron had them :-\
Rowdy got one, and gave a heads up on this BB, but when I called they had none left :(
Now I don't think you'll see even the 20"ers imported again :(
You could hunt around, Rossi did make a Longer 28" hammer double ( for me it just has to have hammers )
They ceased in about 2000 :-\
Like Jeff said ... Pedersoli makes a REALLY cool 10 Guage (but it is a muzzle loader)
Perfect for Pistoleer, Dave, you might remember Cherokee Bill shot one at your first shoot.
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Major
The TTN with the 26 in barrel was from EMF . I think Taylor's may have got a few also . Good luck on your search .
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Major
The TTN with the 26 in barrel was from EMF . I think Taylor's may have got a few also . Good luck on your search .
DoH ! that might explain why Cimarron had none :-\
and what are we doing up so early ? ::)
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O/O you might try CZ for an extra set of barrels. Huglu builds a nice 28" hammer gun. The original importer of Huglu SXS was here in Fort Worth and he had all kinds of cool stuff, but CZ being the marketing giant they are got Huglu to cancel his contract. Getting another set of barrels might be a stretch though.
T-Joe
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Major 2, Rowdy works underground in the coal mines. Two weeks of seconds and two weeks of days. This is seconds. Tj
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T Joe, The tang safety on the CZ continues to bother me. I wonder if I could remove it and plug the hole with a colored piece of metal that would blend in?
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O/O
Removing the safety is something you would have to experiment with. Remove it and silver solder in a piece of metal.
Joe
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I contacted CZ USA. They said that although the longer barrels would fit, they do not have extra barrels to sell.
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I contacted CZ USA. They said that although the longer barrels would fit, they do not have extra barrels to sell.
I have been working on a deal with Davidson's to get the CZ Hammer Classic back in stock for my biz. It is plodding along, since it is an import, but they do have a SKU for it now.
The 26" 1878 Clone was carried by Cimarron, EMF, and Taylors. I exhausted their supplies when word got out that the importation was going away. I have heard that they may start flowing again in the next couple of months. I hope so.
Here is one of my favorite shotguns - an old Hopkins & Allen 12 ga. Someone nickel plated it, so I got if for a song. Now I have this one and one like it that is not plated. Both are grand shooters, though I only trust BP shells in them.
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff369/btbuck/Rifles%20and%20Shotguns/HopkinsandAllen12guage1-2.jpg)
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Now thats a monkey gun!
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Now thats a monkey gun!
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff369/btbuck/Private/spider-monkey.jpg)
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You can see the shine reflected in his eyes !