Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Cole Bluesteele on October 13, 2011, 06:06:01 PM
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Heading says it all. Do you think NCOWS should look into restructuring its shooting classes? The goal would be to establish classes that are both unique to NCOWS and more historically accurate?
Ted
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Not that I shoot much (any) anymore, but part of the hindrance is the cost. Fuel, ammo, etc. etc. . But if I were to shoot, I would like a one gun shoot. Maybe levergun only. Bill Proctor and Scarlet Mask have a woods walk that piqued my interest. I don't think we utilize shotguns enough either. One gun shotgun shoot? I think they played a bigger part in shootouts than what we want to believe.
The shooting scenarios don't seem very real. Title of stage sounds good, but in the end, most are just the same ole steel plates.
Hardly much in the way of history is really discussed on the range.
Hey, you asked, that's probably what it would take to get me to be able to go.
While I'm on my soapbox, should move the shoots from Sunday to Saturday for us who would opt to go to church that day. Or at least make it later in the afternoon.
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To recap what I commented in chambers for all to see. The reason I also feel like resructuring is needed is this.
First, other than originals working cowboy is the most historically accurate class but all shooters regardless of smokeless, black powder, one or two handed grip, C&B revolvers are all lumped together. Then the four gun classes that are least correct and probably less shooters than WC combined are busted up into all kinds of sub categories.
Second, there are members that would like more historically correct classes such as two pistols with their long gun or a pistol and shotgun without having to shoot four guns.
Many lawmen and outlaws alike did carry two revolvers. Many also preferred a shotgun to the rifle as their long gun.
The problem with the current system is if a member wishes to build their persona as a historically accurate two gun toting lawman (Wild Bill for example) they are required to shoot four guns which is not as historically accurate.
I do like the idea of all the classes having at least one long gun just to add to the game but there should be more historically accurate choices rather than just a two gun class.
Many members have said they would like a pistol and shotgun class, while this does nothing for me it is historically accurate and think the class should be added.
I feel like two pistols and a rifle would be a very popular class and historically accurate as well. I doubt you saw many gunslingers or lawmen walking down the street carrying two long guns or pushing a gun cart.
I personally like the idea of shooting two revolvers but don't wish to carry an arsenal of guns in order to do so.
This would be my suggestion for what it's worth. I feel like it cover most of the bases without having too many classes. There would be something for everyone.
1. Working Cowboy or Cowgirl-One pistol & one rifle - traditional
2. Working Cowboy or Cowgirl-One pistol & one rifle - open
3. Sodbuster men and ladies-One pistol & One shotgun - traditional
4. Sodbuster men and ladies-One pistol & one shotgun - open
5. Shootist men and ladies-Two pistols, one rifle & one shotgun - traditional
6. Shootist men and ladies-Two pistols, one rifle & one shotgun - open
7. Pistoleer men and ladies - two pistols & one rifle - traditional
8. Pistoleer men and ladies- two pistols & one rifle - open
9. Junior boys and girls - one pistol & one rifle
10. Originals men and lades- as is
That keeps it down to twenty classes with men and women categories. It adds some interesting classes that will for sure have shooters (especially open pistoleer) and I don't believe that knocks anyone out of basically shooting what they currently do for those who want to stay where they are.
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Haven't shot any NCOWS shoots so would rather not vote until I have seen first hand what people want changed.
Rafe
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Hi
I haven't EVER shot any Cowboy Action Shooting because I don't have the equipment. The SASS "requirement" for two six shooters, a shotgun, and a lever action rifle is very expensive. I know I COULD borrow, but that isn't something I feel good about.
Could matches requiring a shotgun (for example) be structured so that everyone uses 1 shotgun? Shotgun ammunition could be provided by the range holding the match and paid for with the entry fees?
Could matches be structure so that one six shooter is enough or such that reloading is required if you don't carry two pistols?
Just a thought.
By the way, I'm primarily a bullseye shooter, but I used to re-enact Civil War and would like to eventually branch out.
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I have assembled the fire retardent...so here goes....
All shooting sports tend to be expensive hobbies/sports. There are some things that can be done to mitigate costs somewhat..but the shooting sports still tend to be pricy. Without tring to sound heartless or crass some just can't afford it.
I have reduced my shooting schedule due to the price of components and gas and no work...but like any other hobby/sport/passion..you can afford it or you can't.
I do not support any one gun catagory.
I need a little clarification on the trad/open..does that mean one hand or two; smokeless or bp, or what?
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...keep 4 gun classes. Lots of folks have them and enjoy shooting them, i.e. the more the marrier.
I would hate to see more classes, change classes so more folks would win, or to drive membership under the guise of historical accuracy.
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JEB:
Traditional is BP one handed. Open is everything else.
You going to make the SST shoot the end of the month? I regret having too many irons in the fire and my son is deployed so I dont have the 2nd reason to drive east. I hope you all have a good time.
T-Joe
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TJ,
Yep gonna make SST.
As proposed by Judge John Torrence in the May/June 2009 Shootist:
Gunman; 2 revolvers,rifle, shotgun
Range Detective: 2 revolvers, Rifle
Lawman: 2 revolvers, shotgun
Sodbuster; 1 revolver, single shot shotgun
Working Cowboy: 1 revolver, rifle
These five catagories would be Traditional [bp, one handed] and Open [ all other options] and ladies. I would change Sodbuster to allow any approved shotgun.
Pistoleer; same as current
Originals; same as current
offered in mens and ladies
Junior boys and girls.
I believe this is 25 classes/catagories and covers almost all gun combinations.
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I have assembled the fire retardent...so here goes....
All shooting sports tend to be expensive hobbies/sports. There are some things that can be done to mitigate costs somewhat..but the shooting sports still tend to be pricy. Without tring to sound heartless or crass some just can't afford it.
I have reduced my shooting schedule due to the price of components and gas and no work...but like any other hobby/sport/passion..you can afford it or you can't.
I do not support any one gun catagory.
I need a little clarification on the trad/open..does that mean one hand or two; smokeless or bp, or what?
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...keep 4 gun classes. Lots of folks have them and enjoy shooting them, i.e. the more the marrier.
I would hate to see more classes, change classes so more folks would win, or to drive membership under the guise of historical accuracy.
Hi Jeb
True, either you can afford it or you can't. On the other side of the coin however is to think of ways to help new comers enter your sport. For example, I shoot bulls-eye or NRA Conventional Pistol. The aggregate match is a three gun match, 90 shots with a .22LR, 90 shots with any center-fire pistol above .32 caliber, and 90 shots with a .45. Most new shooters buy a .22LR Mark I, II, or II and shoot that for a few years. If t hey don't like the sport, then they have a .22LR pistol like most of us do anyway. Our last match had 12 small-bore shooters, 6 Center-fire shooters, and 4 .45 shooters. Most of us use the .45 for the center-fire portion of the match too. If we didn't allow the new shooters to only shoot the .22 match, we probably wouldn't have anybody there except the three ex-members of Military shooting teams. We only "require" two guns, but we also have matches for two more, a Hardball match with a more military .45 ACP, and two different .38 Special revolver matches.
The reason I suggested separating the matches is to allow for newbies to "slide" into the sport. PERSONALLY, I'd be more likely to loan out a 12 gauge coach gun than any of the other guns used in CAS. 12 gauge ammo is relatively inexpensive, and a flat of 12 gauge ammo in 7.5 or a little bigger would probably last a club a year or more.
Just my $0.02.
Later
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If this sounds crazy then just ignor me. How about making the shooting more historically correct as well? Right now you shoot a certain number of rounds at a target then the round is over, in a real shootout you would engage until the targets are eliminated. What if you had to shoot at targets that you will probably miss 30% of the time(smaller and/or longer ranges), you keep shooting until you get them all. A Working Cowboy stage would work as followed: 8 or so targets with increasing difficulty; start with your revolver, fire until empty, switch to your rifle and fire until you have hit all of them or run out of ammo(then reload until cleared or stop the round and you are declared 'dead'). This would be a timed event only, if it takes 8 or 15 rounds to clear, it doesn't matter. You would have to fine tune the size and ranges of the targets so most people could clear the round without running dry. This would truer to real gunfight and it would be different than SASS.
I will say that I am not a member of NCOWS(no clubs in Georgia) or SASS(a club is trying to form near by). I would rather it be an NCOWS, but I will take what I can get.
Again if this sounds crazy and it has already been discused, then just ignor me! :)
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Tornado, I like it..CC ;D
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Tornado:
You have an interesting concept. We have shot stages similar here at the Berger Sharpshooters. We set up a stage using 2 guns with 12 targets each target had to be hit twice. The main issue with having to hit all targets is the time to get everyone thru a stage. If you have 10 shooters this can be a fun stage, if you have 30 shooters, you will have a long day on the range.
I dont know where you live in GA, but the Saluda Saddle Tramps shoot near Columbia, SC and the Cracker Cowboys shoot near Orlando. My son lives near Macon and we try to get to the SST shoot from time to time.
T-Joe
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Tornado, I might not have enough ammo to shoot a match. Tj ;D
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To speed things up you could put a limit of the number of rounds you can fire. Another idea would be to use a two ring target. One shot in the center ring for a hit or two shots in the much larger outer ring.
By the way I'm in Southwest GA.
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Let me start by saying I've always thought it a little odd that NCOWS formed with the idea of being more historically correct in impressions and shooting props and gear which was great and then simply adopted all the usual SASS shooting classes without change. The most unauthentic thing about SASS from the beginning was the shoot itself. Many of their shooters display topnotch authenticity in their dress and firearms and would readily fit in any NCOWS crowd. It has always been their shooting structure that I thought departed so badly from a historical perspective. Shame on us for simply adopting this as part of NCOWS in the first place. I have done some amount of research on the historical period in question and here is the conclusion to which I've come. In the percussion revolver era of roughly 1850 - 1875 the instance of those carrying two revolvers vs. one revolver was roughly 50-50. This is based on written testimony I've uncovered and studying period photos. I do not count wartime photos or testimony because it was fairly common knowledge that Union cavalrymen mostly all just carried the one service revolver they were issued while Confederate horsemen carried from none to half dozen just depending on what they could get in anyway they could. They would also carry the single shot 1842 models or previous or civilian single shot guns until a revolver could be acquired. So I have tried to limit my search for evidence to civilians carrying handguns. Again the split appears to be about 50-50. With the wide adoption of carrying metallic cartridge firing revolvers my research done in the same way reveals a preponderance of carry of 10-1 in favor of one gun vs. two. There are historical instances of two gun handlers in the cartridge era like Jesse James and Billy the Kid but again these were the exceptions not the rule. Also in reading actual gunfight stories most gunfights were over with the use of one revolver even when two might be available. I have found zero instances of anyone carrying two revolvers a rifle and a shotgun all at the same time. Also as to "sodbusters" the term though catchy and cute was a more or less derogotive term at the time that also tended to point to a poor condition economically. When they owned a gun at all it was usually a converted muzzleloading musket cut down and smoothbored to turn it into a cheap shotgun. A few probably could and did afford a better breechloading double but suffice it to say virtually none of them had use for or bothered to purchase a revolver. For this reason I like the term lawman or towntamer for the revolver toting shotgun user. I like the idea of completely restructuring our classes so that anyone can chose to use one revolver or two, cartridge or percussion cap, plus a rifle or a shotgun, but never both long guns during a match. In other words you register as a shooter who will use one or two revolvers plus either long gun as your class for that day. Next month switch about and register using the other long gun. It gives you more to look forward to. The one other class (which is quite authentic) I'd like to see offered is percussion revolvers and a single shot carbine or rifle. These could include percussion breech loading carbines like the Sharps, Smith, Maynard etc. Then extend an open invitation for North South Skirmish Assn shooters to come out and shoot. They already have the guns and clothes. Increase membership and more historical guns and fun. But seriously I think we need to stop the copycat SASS style shooting and classes. I am proud to be an NCOWS member and make no apologies for keeping to an historic portrayal for both my impression and our shooting scenarios. At our Covered Bridge Shootists events here in Alabama we never shoot any scenario or match for that matter where the shooter uses two different long guns. One or two pistols is fine, the shooter just has to decide if he wants to shoot his shotgun that month or his rifle. We do break it down between black powder shooters and smokeless shooters but how you hold your gun is your choice. Someone once told me I might shoot my pistol better if I used both hands. I told him I tried it already. Using both hands just made me shake twice as bad!
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MD,
I like this guy!
Ted
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Me too!
T-Joe
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I think this pretty much simplifies much of what has been discussed. I like it.
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Marshal, I agree that 2 revolvers a shotgun and a rifle aren't very historically correct. However if we want to be real correct we would shoot the target with one shot into it's back or perhaps have a scenario where we chase a target around a wood stove hitting everything but the target ;)
Most NCOWS members are very much into the history of the Old West. We know that very few man to man shootouts actually occurred and those involved but a couple of shots with some noted exceptions. If we followed the historical example we wouldn't do much shooting. Actually to be really historical alcohol should be involved ::) We all know how that would go over.
I enjoy working cowboy but would much prefer to shoot just 2 revolvers and do away with any long guns but I doubt many others feel the same. Jim Boeke of River Junction traders and one of the founders of NCOWS once told me that his idea of a perfect match would before the shooters ever saw the target set up they would have to chose which 2 guns they would shoot the match with. Then they would have to solve and shoot all the stages with those 2 guns. I have always been intrigued by the idea. and sure would enjoy shooting such a match.
Will Ketchum
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MD ..your concept is quite good
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I don't see the four gun classes going anywhere. I don't have any desire to shoot it but a lot of people do. That's why I never got into CAS until I found out about NCOWS. Basically I don't care to shoot a shotgun at a still target and that's mostly what I was seeing. Would have liked to had one on that running man at the Nationals though. :P
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Will Ketchum, good point. Reading some of these posts it seems that some people forget that we are a shooting group. If you only have 6 or 8 people show up to shoot, then you can do a lot of different things and not take up a lot of time. If you have 30 shooters show up you are more limited in your stages. If you cut back and only shoot a few shots you will start to lose those people who come to shoot and not discuss history. Like you I have talked with several people who for different reasons would like a class with only pistols. Having shot this a couple of times it does add to a shoot and is a lot of fun. As we get older shooting a long gun gets to be less fun. I am against changes just for the sake of changes. There are some class changes that would be an improvement but to throw out all of our classes just because some non shooters would like to read about more period shooting events is not the way to go. We need to be looking at ways to grow the organization, not run off the shooters we have that are supporting the organization. If we have NCOWS sanctioned shoots, we must offer all of the NCOWS approved classes, even if only 1 shooter shows for each class. At our monthly shoots we can add other classes that we deem fun and different but we still have to offer the official classes. Rather than proposing to change all of our classes why don't the SHOOTING POSSES take this next year and try some of these different styles or classes in addition to what we have and see where the most interest lies. Then if needed we can put our heads together and propose needed changes that people will shoot not just talk about.
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Another way to "think out side the box" on shooting matches: Time limited stages.
Rather than a course of fire with a limited number of firearms & cartridges, limit the time on the stage.
Example: 12 target array. Shooter has 40 seconds to engage targets in any order. All targets must be hit once, then shooter may engage array again, time permiting. If all targets are hit twice, shooter may engage array for a 3rd time, etc.... Shooter may use any weapson(s) in any combination that are main match legal. Reloads allowed.
The person with the most "hits" in 40 seconds is the winner of the stage.
We ran a couple of the side matches this way at the SW Regional. They went well.
Downsides to this:
Shooter will likely have live rounds in their arms at the end of the stage which will need to be unloaded.
Shotguns will have an advantage here. Fix: limit the number of shotshells per stage to a max of 4. (If the shooter chooses to use a shotgun.)
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For what its worth, I have emailed the posse rep's and/or contacts listed on the NCOWS website to see what additional or different from the National and Regional match classes they offer at their monthly matches. Idea wa sto find a starting point based on what was already being used successfully at the posse level.
Unfortunately, to date I have only heard from four!
Ted
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i plan on making a motion at our jcr meeting to add some classes for one year to see how they go.it seems to me that adding classes is more favorable than taking ones away.i do have one question, are the other ncows posses losing members to sass because they think sass is more is more historically correct?jefff
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Did we loose members to SASS because they thought they were more historically correct ???
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Did we loose members to SASS because they thought they were more historically correct ???
If we have, I'm not sure we wanted them.
Books
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Am I the only one that likes things the way they are? So far the people that I speak for have only asked for one thing. They would like to see a two handgun and one rifle class. Tj
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If we're not careful, we'll be known as:
'NCOWS - A Class Outfit, Where Everyone Has Their Own Class'...
So long as we continue to play to our strength of greater fidelity towards the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' or 'IPSC With Hats', or the 'SASS-Lite' versions, we'll attract like-minded folks, and those will fill our ranks.
Ride for the Brand!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Another way to "think out side the box" on shooting matches: Time limited stages.
Rather than a course of fire with a limited number of firearms & cartridges, limit the time on the stage.
Example: 12 target array. Shooter has 40 seconds to engage targets in any order. All targets must be hit once, then shooter may engage array again, time permiting. If all targets are hit twice, shooter may engage array for a 3rd time, etc.... Shooter may use any weapson(s) in any combination that are main match legal. Reloads allowed.
The person with the most "hits" in 40 seconds is the winner of the stage.
We ran a couple of the side matches this way at the SW Regional. They went well.
Downsides to this:
Shooter will likely have live rounds in their arms at the end of the stage which will need to be unloaded.
Shotguns will have an advantage here. Fix: limit the number of shotshells per stage to a max of 4. (If the shooter chooses to use a shotgun.)
Hi
I think that the time limited stage is a great idea. I think that the whole concept of needing to shoot say 8-20 bad guys from cover is a valid Old West scenario, especially for an Indian War era soldier. To be safe, this stage could be run using a rifle OR shotgun and one revolver. In order to safely reload, the shooter would be behind cover, but not allowed to sweep the crowd.
Later
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We will be adding classes also.
We are not losing members to SASS. Actually we are getting SASS members. Some shoot both. Some just with NCOWS.
The Prime Directive to restructure is to GET NEW MEMBERS by offfering shooters an experience different from other WAS venues while staying true to our historical heritage.
Ted
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If you are changing classes, We have at least one class that should be dropped, the Originals. We do not have overall top shooter for a reason. Saying you have so many seconds to shoot this stage - that is a problem. Do you set the average time to what I shoot it in or one of the Top Sass Shooters? Big difference in 60 sec. and 15 sec. On the other hand, shooting until all targets are hit is the reverse. Some shooters would not finish a single stage in a two day shoot. Classes based on equipment, or ability? Or both. How do we want to approach this. Above all, we need to keep in mind that most of our shooters do not keep abreast of what class they are in now. I go - I shoot. If it were only that simple. It is never equal, simply because of the choice of equipment. A good 73 shooter will always beat a great Spencer shooter based simply on time. If classes are changed,IMHO Classes should be simple and few.
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Cole, I have not received your e-mail.
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So far the people that I speak for have only asked for one thing. They would like to see a two handgun and one rifle class. Tj
That is what I've heard too. I've heard a couple thoughts about an elder working cowboy class.
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i am wit Texas Jack, i like the way it is now. besides, anyone that shook the hand of Paul Bear Bryant KNOWS THANGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Bill, he ought to KNOW THANGS, for sure. I spent an afternoon with the Bear and his Labrador Retriever when we lived in Alabama back in the 70's. We have something for everyone as it stands now. Clubs can experiment all they want to encourage new shooters at their monthly shoots withour changing the structure in place. Hope youall have a MERRY CHRISTMAS. JD
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Saying you have so many seconds to shoot this stage - that is a problem. Do you set the average time to what I shoot it in or one of the Top Sass Shooters? Big difference in 60 sec. and 15 sec.
In a "time limited" match, you might use 4 classes:
Youth: 50 seconds per stage
"Shootist" (open class): 20 seconds per stage
"Sharpshooter" (handicap open class): 40 seconds per stage
Senior: 50 seconds per stage
Split between male and female and you have 8 simple classes.
Again, scoring in this enviroment would be most "hits" in the allotted time. Shooter can use any legal NCOWS main match weapon in any safe combination. i.e: Shooter could use one pistol and reload as needed or shooter could use the traditional 4 gun CAS kit, or any combination there in.
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I tell you all one thing. I am glad that all this must be voted on. If some of these ideals come about I would never shoot another NCOWS match. Now tell me, how would that gain more members? Sure glad that this is only talking about ideals and everyone has the right to express. Tj
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I tell you all one thing. I am glad that all this must be voted on. If some of these ideals come about I would never shoot another NCOWS match. Now tell me, how would that gain more members? ...
Hi TJ
I understand your pain. The way to get more shooters is to make it EASY and Less EXPENSIVE to join up. A coach gun and a single revolver is a lot more likely than two revolvers, a lever action, AND a shotgun (SASS). A borrowing shotgun and a personal revolver is even more likely. If I like it, I can eventually buy my way to a full SASS rig with a goat cart full of stuff, if I don't I only have one or two extra guns to clean or sell.
After all, there IS a reason we have IDPA, IPSC, and NRA Action Pistol as well as NRA Conventional Pistol, NRA International Pistol, and I'm sure that there are others.
Later
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All,
I intend to make a motion to restruction the current 60-some number of classes down to 14. All may be shot with your choice of powder or shooting style. I will also stipulate that local clubs can sub-divide these as they like. By age, powder type and shooting style.
Yuma
Men's 4-gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's 3-Gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Men's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Men's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Men's Pistoleer 2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's Original 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's 4-gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's 3-Gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Women's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Women's Pistoleer 2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's Original 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Boy's 12-17) 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Girl's (12-17) 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
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EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE. I am Life Member 5610 of SASS. I am NCOWS member 1097. Just because SASS started this sport does not mean we need to play FOLLOW THE LEADER. I stopped shooting SASS matches many years ago. I shoot NCOWS matches only. I ride for the brand. We don't need 150 classes. Simplify the game. One catagory I detest is the 2 handguns, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun. We need to stick with the authenticity that is unique to NCOWS. Go back to 1870. What is your persona? What guns would you CARRY AND USE? If you feel its necessary to carry 2 handguns, 2 rifles, 1 shotgun, 1 buffalo gun, 1 guncart, 1 pony and a lawnchair then SASS is for you. If being authentic in dress and gear and shooting as it used to be is more to your liking then NCOWS is the choice. I am for change but lets do it OUR WAY. .............WE ARE NCOWS..........
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I'm 100% with you Mr. Jones..
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EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE. ........ Just because SASS started this sport does not mean we need to play FOLLOW THE LEADER. I stopped shooting SASS matches many years ago. I shoot NCOWS matches , for NCOWS, I prefer the brand. (on ocassion however, I might shoot SASS or not ! ) .
We don't need 150 classes. Simplify the game. . .............WE ARE NCOWS..........
< I paraphrase Mr. CO Jones .....
I like Yuma Kids approch... "local clubs can sub-divide these as they like" he suggests 2 ,3 & 4 gun classes which should appeal to all ...
Local clubs can even offer two pistol only should there be a following.
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As we get closer to a viable proposal I wish to remind everyone WHY this discussion started. The two reasons are as follows:
The National Congress of Old West Shootists (NCOWS) was founded in 1994 to promote "safe Western Action Shooting including the re-enactment and promotion of the historical Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity" during the period 1865 to 1899.
Whereas, all but four of our current classes require the use of four firearms, which historical evidence clearly shows is not the typical equipment of persons living in the Old West, our existing shooting classes do NOT permit our members to experience the historical Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity during the period 1865 to 1899. Clearly, these existing shooting classes are not consistent with our mission statement.
1. Therefore, in order to provide our members a unique western shooting experience that honors the Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity history as stated above and reflects the reality of gunplay in the Old West, we propose that NCOWS replace all of the existing shooting classes.
2. We propose that such a restructuring will not only make NCOWS unique and Historically accurate, it will also attract new members which are paramount to the success of NCOWS.
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Howdy
As we talk about changes maybe we need to look at what classes are being shoot . If we look at the last 5 National Shoots and the Regional shoots What classes are being shot ? What classes aren't ? Do we need more or less ? Are we purely Historical ? or are we a Shooting organization ? What do the members of the Posses want ? We need to think and then make a decision . We want to attract more members and at the same time hold on to the old members . We always need to be recruiting to keep our membership GROWING . Hows our Recruiting going ?
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if"n yawl r so hellbent on shootin them nu classes, why don"t cha jus start yer own deal and see how she goes!
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The longer this goes on the worse it seems to get. Do you know what we have now? We only have 20 classes. Do you shoot black or smokeless? Do you shoot 1 handed or 2? Do you shoot men or women? If you only want to shoot 2 guns and get started on the cheap, we have Working Cowboy. Then we have the age based classes. How much easier can you make it and still separate the powder and the 1 versus 2 hand hold? I see no need for the Originals class since we already have Working Cowboy. Drop that class and add a pistol only class and we have all we need. Just my 2 cents worth but this is headed down hill at the rate it is going. Like Texas Jack said, if some of these things pass, we will lose shooters.
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The longer this goes on the worse it seems to get. Do you know what we have now? We only have 20 classes. Do you shoot black or smokeless? Do you shoot 1 handed or 2? Do you shoot men or women? If you only want to shoot 2 guns and get started on the cheap, we have Working Cowboy. Then we have the age based classes. How much easier can you make it and still separate the powder and the 1 versus 2 hand hold? I see no need for the Originals class since we already have Working Cowboy. Drop that class and add a pistol only class and we have all we need. Just my 2 cents worth but this is headed down hill at the rate it is going. Like Texas Jack said, if some of these things pass, we will lose shooters.
I must agree with both JD and TJ. Do we really need a change of all classes? May be best to leave it be and maybe add a pistol only class.
Regards
JW
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Yuma Kid, In your motion you would do away with the Elder and Senior Class. Guess on a National or Regional shoot you could not sub -divide 60's and 70's would shoot in what ever class. Why then would you keep a boys and girls class (12 -17)? Looks to me that we are headed for some problems Tj ???
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TJ:
Although not many youngsters shoot with us, they are the future of the sport. The Jr classes must stay if we are to survive past the demise of our generation. Cole Bluesteele did a breakdown of the Nationals for the past 2 years and our SW Regionals by class. I am not sure where he posted the chart, but there were very few Senior or Elder Shooters that participated. There may be more that shoot in the monthly local shoots, but I have no knowledge as we do not have any at BBS.
To the folks wanting to drop the Originals: The class fills a niche for the people that want to improve their personna and gear to a higher level than the minimum requirement. The Originals class does not effect the scoring or the outcome of any other class. I am not an Original, but my thought is if you are not an Original then leave it be.
I think we need to add the Sodbuster as it is an economical entry level into the sport and possibly add the pistol only class and leave the rest alone since most here are against changes.
T-Joe
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I not so sure we are attracting the young group..the last ones to join the club I belong to were it the 45 to 55 age group..I started two years ago and I'm over 65, most of the 25 to 40 age are toooo busy raising kids and don't have the $$$ for our sport..
Just my 2 cents..CC
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My son is 38. He shoots with the SST when he is not deployed. We have several somewhat regular Jr Shooters at our club. One is turning 16, 3 are 13, and we have 2 below 10. These kids are the future, I am refering to. All are either children or grandchildren of regular shooters, but that is how my 38 yr old got addicted to CAS.
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I not so sure we are attracting the young group..the last ones to join the club I belong to were it the 45 to 55 age group..I started two years ago and I'm over 65, most of the 25 to 40 age are toooo busy raising kids and don't have the $$$ for our sport..
Just my 2 cents..CC
That's the ideology that will hurt us. If we see more kids, teens, and 20 year-olds on the range, then like minded folks will join us. NCOWS has become a great experience for my son and I. I'd much rather have Trevor out on the range shooting $2 worth of ammo at a 3 hour match, than see him sitting at home playing a $60 video game for 3 hours. I am happy that I am a member of an organzation that fosters kids his age to shoot.
Discretionary dollars for hobbies are all relative. I know folks who spend 10 times what we do on motorcycle hobbies. I also know IDPA shooters who have tricked-out auto pistols that cost 4 times what a new Uberti revolver does. It's all relative and more importantly how you present the sport's start up costs to interested parties really helps retain folks interest. Everyone's income levels are different, but we all get to decide how and when to spend our "hobby dollars."
I do believe that folks in the firearm community view CAS/WAS as an "expensive" past time due to 1) "Four guns" 2) "Costumes" and 3) "Expensive antique ammo". Those are opinions I've heard numerous times when we talk to the shooting public at gun shows and such. When talking with folks, those three issues need to be addressed.
We as a group, need to stress avenues into the sport that minimize expense like working cowboy and purchasing used firearms through the local WAS community. Also, I stress to folks that they can always try out the sport with borrowed guns. Folks that enjoy the experience, quickly find a way to shunt some income toward gettting the necessary gear.
As with any organization or institution, if we are not growing then we are dying.
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Texas Jack,
If the hosting club of the Nationals and Regional shoots want to sub-divide the 14 classes, that would be up to them. I'll even revise my motion to make sure that is clear. My point in making my motion to remove the requirement for clubs to offer over 60 classes and yet make sure when a person goes to a local shoot they know there will be at least a class for the guns you brought.
Yuma
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Of course, I do not want to do away with the younger folks getting into our sport. My only thought just because us older folks are leaving this world or unable to shoot anymore, if you lump all into certain groups by the weapons you use, then it should be everyone. In the old west age would not have mattered, that seem to be what you are saying by doing this.
As I read these post over and over it seems to be that we have forgotten that this is just a shooting sport. We do want to be as correct in our dress, weapons, and ideals as we can. But it seems to be getting a little out of hand. Are you all sure we really need to change anything? Tj ???
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Pancho, That's not ideology, he's just making a statement on what he sees at his club, which is a large one. No one is saying that they do not want younger people. It's just a fact that we are not getting a large amount. With us having a working cowboy class already in place, don't see how these changes are going to make much of a difference. Guess we will have to wait till a vote comes up and if a change takes place, then see what happens. Tj
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I don't have a dog in this fight but have been watching.
Has anyone looked at the GAF classes?
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17271.0.html
I know it wouldn't be a perfect fit but it could be start. Combine the milspec and civilian classes and you might be close. several 2 gunclasses (single shot rifle and1 handgun, repeating rifle caliber and 1 handgun, repeating pistol caliber and 1 handgun, or shotgun and 1 handgun) or the handgung only or rifle only classes.
Ihaveseenthe GAF classes work at our musters. Reloads are the norm. Must hit knockdowns are common.
Many shooters enjoy the more realistic approach.
Just my view from hear.
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...
Discretionary dollars for hobbies are all relative. I know folks who spend 10 times what we do on motorcycle hobbies. I also know IDPA shooters who have tricked-out auto pistols that cost 4 times what a new Uberti revolver does. It's all relative and more importantly how you present the sport's start up costs to interested parties really helps retain folks interest. Everyone's income levels are different, but we all get to decide how and when to spend our "hobby dollars."
I do believe that folks in the firearm community view CAS/WAS as an "expensive" past time due to 1) "Four guns" 2) "Costumes" and 3) "Expensive antique ammo". Those are opinions I've heard numerous times when we talk to the shooting public at gun shows and such. When talking with folks, those three issues need to be addressed.
We as a group, need to stress avenues into the sport that minimize expense like working cowboy and purchasing used firearms through the local WAS community. Also, I stress to folks that they can always try out the sport with borrowed guns. Folks that enjoy the experience, quickly find a way to shunt some income toward getting the necessary gear.
As with any organization or institution, if we are not growing then we are dying.
Hiya Pancho
I agree with your post, but my reasoning for supporting restructuring is a little different. The $ spent on a hobby we're done for a while are easy to justify, at least in OUR minds. Any $ spent on a NEW hobby that we THINK we'd like to TRY aren't as easy to justify. Borrowing guns is a nice opportunity, but one that doesn't answer all of the problems. Many of us don't feel comfortable borrowing a gun for a match. Ammunition isn't cheap (even in a borrowed gun), the ammunition for that borrowed gun is probably reloaded (not by "me"), and not everyone likes to have store-bought ammunition shot in their gun.
Other shooting sports allow easier entry to the sport by having different classes and allowing only portions of the entire match to be shot. You're allowed to shoot only the 12 gauge portion of a skeet match (12, 20, 28, and .410). You can shoot NRA Action Pistol with your concealed carry gun. You can shoot only the .22LR portion of an NRA Conventional Pistol Match. If NCOWS can find an "entry" class, that can be shot with a gun that is either already owned by many Americans (not exactly likely), or is relatively inexpensive (Colt SAA knockoff's are roughly $500, which is just over the average price in my local gun shop), that would HELP spread the sport.
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
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Mike,
How about a "Greenhorn" class to do what your suggesting? Shoot what you brung as long as it is NCOWS legal. No awards, just grins.
Ted
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Cole at a local level that might be fine ...
I would not expect a Greenhorn attending a Reg. or the Nat'l with the plan to compete.
So if have the entry level "Greenhorn" it would not need be a class or even timed.
Just a shoot what you got (NCOWS legal) and enjoy, maybe get hooked and go the whole nut.
I proposed Sodbuster ( not my coined name but it works) as a entry level class.
The Idea was one just might have a old double , or Colt or Remington replica or both.
Here is a class, he could compete in..
Or if he were to buy in ..a NIB Century SXS is roughly $300 and currently a Remy NM Army is $179
So @ $479. cost for those guns, at about the cost of one new SAA Replica Cartridge Revolver...
..he has class to compete in .
Sure the class is open to all comers with NCOWS legal shotguns & Revolvers.
Only reloads would be the Shotgun to even the field with cartridge arms...
We have Working Cowboy and it is very popular . Sodbuster has been well received and I think it would be a benefit
to NCOWS
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Major,
Granted Greenhorn would not be a regional or national level class.
Ted
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I also agree a greenhorn is not likely to show up to shoot at the Nationals so why does NCOWS as a whole have to make an entry level class mandatory?
Local posses can offer that if they feel it will bring in new shooters. It may not be the same for all, some parts of the country people are more likely to own different guns. Let the local posses structure any additional "entry level class" to suit their needs.
Working Cowboy is already entry level as far as I'm concerned. I used to truck pull so believe me this is a cheap sport. Maybe a sodbuster class would be fine for some posse but there hasn't been any interest when it was brought up at our meetings.
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Hi
In my uneducated opinion, sobbuster would be a good class to have even if as something beyond an entry class. A shotgun and a six-gun would be a decent cowboy combination from the three or four books on the subject I've read. In many ways, a shotgun would be an easier gun to borrow in a lot of respects too. 12 gauge trap loads are pretty inexpensive and would be competitive with the other rounds that NCOWS would usually shoot. I know that borrowing a Remington 870 is not as big a deal as borrowing a Browning over and under. I haven't had a side by side in my hands for a while, are they idiot proof enough for the average newbie?
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
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There really doesn't need to be an entry-level class - not when 'Working Cowboy' uses the most basic of weaponry and such.
Weapons and leather-wise, it's the most affordable - and with little work, pretty much anyone who wants to put in the effort can look appropriate to the era.
Anything beyond that is dependant upon the individual's personal interest, and we can always offer guidance in how to find and modify clothing to fit the Impression.
As to pulling in young shooters - probably won't happen, unless they're already historically-minded.
The folks who actively shoot C&WAS are those who remember the romance of the TV Westerns and the oaters of the '50's and '60's - and those really don't have hollywood's support - though folks do say they like them.
I suspect more are viewed via 'Netflix' than on the Silver Screen.
Kids today dream differently and Gene and Roy aren't even close to their screen.
Posse-level shoots can do what they like - National-level shoots are (and should be) different - there should be an expected standard that isn't as important locally.
To reiterate:
If we're not careful, we'll be known as:
'NCOWS - A Class Outfit, Where Everyone Has Their Own Class'...
So long as we continue to play to our strength of greater fidelity towards the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' or 'IPSC With Hats', or the 'SASS-Lite' versions, we'll attract like-minded folks, and those will fill our ranks.
Ride for the Brand!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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I am seeing a renewed interest in the Old West thanks to current movies like "Cowboys and Aliens" and shows like "Hell on Wheels". If programs like those prove successful, there will be more and we could see a whole new generation of people getting interested.
While Western Action Shooting might be cheap compared to some hobbies and sports, it still is not cheap. Even with Working Cowboy one would need to invest $1000 in firemarms plus clothes, leather, and ammo. Especially among the younger crowd, that is a considerable investment in a tough economy.
I would like to see something less expensive that would attract young people to come out and give it a try. Once they try it, I think they will be hooked and then find it easier to justify spending more for more firearms just to get to shoot more.
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We already have place for the Greenhorn. New shooters have up to a year to get their stuff together, unless it is a Regional or National Shoot. Celeste
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Let me clearify , my stand on entry level ....
someone said WC is entry level .... lets look at that.
1 rifle ( least costly as of now, is the Brazltec Rossi 92 @ about $450 retail )
and say a cartridge revolver @ $350 minimum ( or if you will used in the $300 range ) so your @ $800 ... forget tax & FFL fees
Now you need to feed those two cartridge arms .... assuming an entry level does not reload (yet)
he'll have to buy factory or reloaded ammo... factory 45 is running $ 39.50-49.50 in my area , 38spcl. being in the $ 32 range per box of 50 .
now he needs approx. 15 rounds per stage X say 6 stages = 90 rounds per venture or 2 boxes ....
So the fodder for WC is daunting ...
Now lets say there is a Sodbuster ( In lean towared the name "Pioneer" BTW) Class
1 pistol and one shotgun ...I already shown the cost of start up here ... but just to be fair lets say the same cost for WC pistol above...
here is were this class could shine as stand alone class...
A box of factory loaded 12 guage skeet shells is $ 6.00 - $12 tops 1/3 the cost of rifle ammo. and box of factory loaded 45's could last over two events if used for the pistol only ...
This could be the factor that allows , a person to get started...there could be a natural evoloution to 3 gun as the person wishes or he might
just , find his nitch as a Pioneer shooting his 1 pistol & 1 shotgun and attending a Regional ....
More than likely , a shotgun of sometype was behind the kitchen door... and surplus CW C&B or conversion was handy as well.
Remember, it's not always the first cost ....
I support , the 1 shotgun, 1 pistol as National class ( Sodbuster, Pioneer what ever we choose to call it )
an while I at it, I would also support, 1 pistol, 1 rifle & 1 shotgun class.
Making NCOWS , a 2 , 3, or 4 gun , your option , unique organization :)
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Even thought I wouldn't ever shoot it I first thought sodbuster was a good idea. Our posse was asked by our representative and no one showed interest in regularly shooting the sodbuster class.
If it works for a local posse then they can add it but I'm wondering if it's a good idea to add classes that arent going to be well excepted across the board.
Personally I can't see anyone going to the National or Regional shoots and just shooting sodbuster. If they want to shoot their shotgun without a rifle they will have the trap side match.
The new classes that were asked for from our posse were two pistols and a rifle and a pistol only class. Two, three, and four pistols were discussed but as far as I know we didn't come with a final decision on that.
There were also members that asked for a senior WC class.
You also can't always go by the polls on this board since very few members are on here. Reps need to listen to their posse and make the decisions from there. Don't you wish the US government worked that way?
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I view Senior & Elder as an * Asterisk to a class rather than a class onto itself..
what I mean is , The Tally Book allows the Senior or Elder to shoot " any of the above Classes "
If only one Elder is present , he shoots the same class he chooses and has the * Asterisk
I shoot WC, I could also shoot Senior anything ...I see no need hold a class distinction
if a Senior or Elder group, say 3 entrys , wishes then WC (or anything NCOWS class) can stand alone as their division.
We may have 3-4 at CCC...1 pistol 1 shotgun entries... We offer the class , two of these shooters travel with me to S. Carolina
when we shot with Saluda Saddle Tramps...they allowed the class...
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I am going to make one more post and then keep quite. If age means nothing and you have entry level classes, then why would you have a boys and girl class (12-17)? Yes I know that Seniors and Elders have more know how and the boys and girls are just learning. Age does play a big part in what your are able to do. If you think not then watch me shoot on a stage that has a lot of movement and watch a 30 year old. Think we are forgetting that this is a sport that we compete in. If not why do we have first, second, and third in our classes?
On the shotgun and handgun class, we have offered Town Tamer, Lawman, or whatever you want to call it for the last two years. We have had one person shoot it once. The folks that shoot working cowboy and Range Det.(two handguns and a rifle) just don't like the shotgun.
If we really think that a sod buster, Town Tamer would bring more members, then let us offer it and Range Det. on a trial. Say over the next two years and see if it works. But not do away with Elders, Seniors, or boys and girls. Yes with mens and womens that would be four more classes. At the National and Regionals what does those metals or slips of paper cost? Tj
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This is the way I understand our current system. A person who is over 60 yrs. may shoot any of the classes, except the 17ys. and under. However, If they so choose they may register in the Senior Class, and only compete against persons that are at least as old as themselves. In the Senior class they may use one hand, two hands, black powder, modern, and/or any combination. It is a four/three gun class depending on the posse. Our posse shoots, one rifle, one handgun, one shotgun. Working cowboy does not split out by age, black powder, one, two hand. There was some confusion about this at one National shoot. Thus the request at our club meeting for a class called Senior Working Cowboy. Over 60yrs. and only two guns. Less ammo and guns to carry, eaiser on older folks. Not only do we move slower, but most of us have arms that are too short and even with glasses we cannot see our front sight as clearly as we once could. Can't see the gnat let alone the hair.
Texas Jack, the medals given at the National Shoot cost NCOWS , I believe around three dollars each. In the past there have been several classes that only had one or two persons registered at the National or Regional. Those persons got a first place medal, or second place if there were only two. Therefore there are many more gold medals given out for first (only one person in a class) and second (silver two persons in a class) than bronze third place medals. Medals were ordered by NCOWS Executive Committe in a large Batch to cut down on the cost. Thus they have no name of the event, class nor date. There is a set up fee for striking them. They are given out at the National Shoot, and if a club wants to purchase them for a club shoot they may do so. I never saw a cost for clubs ordering them. Certificate paper is much less than that. Thus the reasoning to give out certificates at our shoots.Celeste
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Just a correction:
Senior and Elder classes, according to the Bylaws, indicate that the shooter "may use any of the above shooting styles"
It doesn't say "classes." Senior and Elder age-based classes are conducted by themselves and are currently 4-gun classes. Within the those classes, a shooter can use BP or smokeless, one-hand or two. That's what the Bylaws means by shooting styles.
For the time being, at least, Senior and Elder are 4-gun classes. There seems to be some good rationale, IMHO, for looking at those classes and determining whether or not they should remain 4-gun classes.
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Just my two cents worth, I think maybe we need a two handguns one rifle class just because some of the Senior and Elder are getting older and don't want to shoot a shotgun..and face it we just don't move like we use too..CC
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TJ ..I did mean to imply "age means nothing me"
The reason for Youth class , I believe is the Caliber & Parent or Gardian partisapation
My point was an Elder or Senior may shoot any class (per the Tally Book)
what I tring to say is Working Cowboy as an example:
1 class for all WC shooters...then within the WC class sub divide for * Elder ** Senior and + Ladies.
there is one list of entrants in WC ...
Working Cowboy
1. Name ..... etc.... total time
2. Name .... etc ...total time
3 ** Name ..etc...total time (Here is the **Elder)
He knows he was 1st. best ** Elder and knows how he finished , compaired to younger shooters , rather than in classed by himself.
4. Name ...etc....total Time
5. + Ladies Name ...etc ...total time ( may be the only lady entrant, but she knows she bested all comers 6- however many ? )
I don't want to exclude senior or elders...(heck I'm one )
I rather not be in class all by my lonesome ( if I'm the only Elder or senior shooting that day )
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All -I owe an apology to the Elders. Seniors may not register in the Elders class. One must admit to being 70 to do that....However, as I read the by-laws an Elder may register in the Senior Class.
Also if it is an NCOWS sanctioned shoot, one must offer all the classes. Not," and a ladies class". There is a Women's Elder, Women's Senior,Working Cowgirl, Women's Smokeless Shootist, Women's Smokeless Duelist, Women's Blackpowder Shootist, Women's Blackpowder Duelist, Women's Pistoleer, and if there three of them Women's Originals.
Dave, there are only 2 classes that have the number of guns specified in the by-laws, they are: Working Cowboy and the Originals. As specified in the By-Laws one pistol/ revolver, one rifle. That is 2 guns. Several Classes have been over the years shot with 4 guns but that is not what the bylaws say, and some clubs- I was told- only use one revolver in some classes that most think of as 4 gun. Style of shooting is different than class of shooting.However Style of shooting in some cases Determines Class when one registers to shoot. For example,"Do you shoot one handed or two? (Style) Do you shoot Blackpowder or Smokeless?"Celeste
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Major, I believe Elder and Senior are actual classes.
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All,
I have revised my motion to add Men's & Womens 3 gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle, 1shotgun and allow hosting posses to sub-divide as they wish at Regional and National matches. Which would leave 16 classes, instead of over 60 classes as we now have.
Yuma
Men's 4-gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's 3-Gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Men's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Men's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Men's Pistoleer 2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's Original 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's 4-gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's 3-Gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Women's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Women's Pistoleer 2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's Original 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Boy's 12-17) 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Girl's (12-17) 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
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Major, I believe Elder and Senior are actual classes.
yes Sir ! understood.... they are actual classes....
but I was pointing out they are also a division of the " styles "
I meant, 'as Irish Dave qualified'
"Senior and Elder classes, according to the Bylaws, indicate that the shooter "may use any of the above shooting styles"
My thought was, WE are NOT eliminating the Seniors or Elders, rather simply adding them as division within the Classes.
A single Elder or Senior entry ( maybe this only works at the local level ) would not have to stand alone in a class all alone.
He's still be 1st. Elder or Senior in style or class entered.... and see exactly were he placed in relation to non-Senior or Elders...
He could perhaps, best all comers, or finsh in the upper tier of class entries...
Just say'n' .... I'd rather know I was part of a group of "style" shooters with (* )
for my Elder or Senior status, rather than be the only one in a Class.
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If their is a group desire to maintain an Elder/Senior class, would folks be opposed to combining them into one class?
I offer: "Senior." This would be limited to shooters 65 and older.
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Major, What they are proposing here is not something that will likely have one shooter. There were probably several Working Cowboys at the Nationals last year would have been in the senior division. Plus we don't know how many in the other senior classes may opt to shoot Working Cowboy from time to time rather than pack all those guns around all day.
On a local level we have a fairly large posse and we would have more senior working cowboys then there would be any interest in a sodbuster class. Our rep. has already brought this up at two recent meetings for a show of hands.
Entry level classes are just that and will always have limited shooters if any but the senior classes are going to continue to be fed by the other classes as we grow older.
We need to concentrate on what will be the most excepted classes overall and then let posses add the ones at their local shoots if they have enough interest or feel like they have something that will attract new members.
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HI
I've been unable to find the Bullseye-L post complaining about this "problem" but I'll attempt to explain what I hope a female 66 year old shooting a revolver and a shotgun would encounter.
On the NRA form you fill out your name, membership number, classification (High Master 97% down to Marksman 85% or lower), male or female, active military, and age. On the Bullseye-L forum, there was a complaint that a shooter who put down one of the sub-classes (Senior) won the whole match, but since they had put down Senior, they only won the Senior trophy, not the overall. I'd like to see the top shooter get the top prize. In short, if a female 66 year old shooter with a revolver and a shotgun hit more targets in less time than anybody else shooting a revolver and a shotgun, she gets the top prize PERIOD. I'd argue that if there's another 66 year old (or older) that shoots just under her score would get the Senior Trophy, and the female who shoots the next best score to hers would get the Woman's trophy. I'm a 4H shooting sports coach, so the whole share the wealth in trophies works well.
I hope this makes sense, AND I just read the complaint, I've never seen an example of this in action. I also can't find the post again.
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
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Why don't we just forget about classes, just line up in our posses by age and shoot and brag about how good we are ..and at the end of the day shake hands go home and tell the family about how much fun we had..
HAVING FUN IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT RIGHT..
If I get first place that great..if I'm last that OK too.I still had fun with a bunch of great guys..
Am I the only one shooting just because I just like to have fun with the guys
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Celeste:
The Bylaws may not spell out the number of guns for the Seniors/Elders, however, past accepted practice at National matches has long established these as 4-gun classes. Personally, I'm not sure that makes much sense and would be worthy of serious review. However, I think that this would be an issue for the Congress to take up.
The class issue is a never-ending thorn in the rump. It's my opinion that it will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Look at the mess of classes that other groups have...and still everyone's not satisfied. An argument (and often a very good one) can be made for any class, any configuration. But until each individual gets the particular class they want, it will always be incomplete or worse yet, "unfair" in their mind.
I'm certainly not against reviewing our class structure if that's what the Congress and the membership want. But if any of us thinks that a revamping will make everyone happy, we're kidding ourselves. Generally speaking, from what I've seen of these things, the only thing we can be sure of is that a revamping will be guaranteed to make one person happy -- and that is the person whose plan is adopted.
I serve at the pleasure of the Congress and the membership and will be happy to take up any discussion and /or proposals that come up on this matter. I'm just suggesting that this is a very sticky wicket as they say, and will not be easily, quickly or uniformly accepted or achieved.
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Yuma, Divide your men's & women's 4, 3, 2, & 2 gun classes into traditional and open (pistoleer & originals Must be shot one handed already) you would have the PERFECT class system !
I would bet that most who shoot Pistoleer would like to drop the shotgun. Would be an interesting question.
Having only shot pistoleer at a national many years ago, I would not presume to change it w/o consulting those who regularly do shoot that class.
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I think that idea get's it about as close to perfect as you can get. 1 or 2 pistols, 1 or 2 long guns, 1 or 2 hand hold. Any powder black or smokeless. Would be a hard system to beat.
Dave is right about never being able to please everyone but this would be very close and most all shooters could find a catagory they can be happy with.
If my count is correct it would make 22 catagories total.
As far as Senior and/or Elder. It makes sense to offer something but what is the question. Do you have just a Sr./Elder 4 gun, or offer and 2 gun, 3 gun and 4 gun or do you allow Sr./Elder in any catagory were there are 3 or more that qualify?
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Trap, et al
I can live with John's classes.
However, I would prefer them seperated into Traditional and Open as you state.
Given our present membership numbers, I feel that either Yuma's or your proposed classes are adequate. Further subdivision or additional classes should be added as membership grows and as membership wishes these future changes made.
Regarding Pistoleer, having shot that class, I agree with you about the shotgun, but others may feel differently.
Ted
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as neat as this sounds traditonal and open idea lumps 3classes into one.and the smokeless duelist now has to shoot against 2 classes of 2handed shooters and i know they will not be happy about it.most i believe most will not switch to BP they will just just quit.i understand trying to make things to attract new members but my role and focus is to express views of the current membership.
i consider myself to be a pistolleer shooter having shot it at many national and regional shoots .so changes will not effect me personally.but i would not shed a single tear if the shot gun was dropped from pistolleer and would like to hear what others that shoot this class on national and regional levels think.
alot of good ideas are coming out here.but have to say our current class system is simple and adresses alot of issues in this sport.it gives alot of choice to the shooter and the equipment is not cost prohibitive to still be competive if you wish to be.
we have really good organization lets be careful not to scew it up
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Jefff,
What you say about the Traditional and Open split is true. However, I feel that target size and placement along with match scenarios that are written without a lot of multiple tap and "dump" targets go a long way towards eliminating any handicap a smokeless duelist has to operate under in the Open classes. Be interested in what our shooting members have to say about this.
Ted
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as neat as this sounds traditonal and open idea lumps 3classes into one.and the smokeless duelist now has to shoot against 2 classes of 2handed shooters
This seems to be acceptable to the Working Cowboy class.
Books
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so are you suggesting it for originals too books?jefff
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i consider myself to be a pistolleer shooter having shot it at many national and regional shoots .so changes will not effect me personally.but i would not shed a single tear if the shot gun was dropped from pistolleer and would like to hear what others that shoot this class on national and regional levels think.
I have not shot the class but I would be joining you if the shotgun was dropped.
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so are you suggesting it for originals too books?jefff
I don't understand the question.
The Originals Class shoots Traditional style. Theoretically, smokeless powder would be acceptable if your character was from 1897* or later.
I think that some of the shooters who shoot in the Originals class would considered shooting Working Cowboy if it were divided.
(They would shoot WC/Traditional. That would be the same shooting, without all of the research and documentation.)
Books
*Smokeless .44-40 ammunition was offered in the 1897 Sears Catalog.
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so let me ask will the originals drop their class if we divide working cowboy?jefff
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Here is my $.02 worth...
Men's 4-gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's 3-Gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Men's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Men's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Men's Pistoleer 2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's Original 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's 4-gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's 3-Gun 2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Women's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Women's Pistoleer 2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's Original 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Boy's 12-17) 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
Girl's (12-17) 2-Gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle
The above looks like a good and non-complicated way to go. I believe that both of the 2-Gun Classes are very important especially for attracting new members. I'll shoot 4-Gun most of the time but like to have the opportunity available to shoot other combinations of Guns if I want to.
Personally I don't care if the Senior/Elders Class is eliminated. Also I shoot Duelist and don't care if I compete against two handed shooters. I'm in this for the enjoyment and compete with myself. In the end, I will be happy with whatever the majority wants to shoot.
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OK ! someone is going to have to explain to me (sometimes i"m pretty dense) why some people who belong to an outfit who prides itself on being the most authentic on the block, who do not and have never shot the class, want so desperately to eliminate the one class that most exemplifies what we are supposed to stand for?
And to answer your question, if WC was divided into traditional and open, and Originals was eliminated, I would still probably attend the National shoot.
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OK ! someone is going to have to explain to me (sometimes i"m pretty dense) why some people who belong to an outfit who prides itself on being the most authentic on the block, who do not and have never shot the class, want so desperately to eliminate the one class that most exemplifies what we are supposed to stand for?
And to answer your question, if WC was divided into traditional and open, and Originals was eliminated, I would still probably attend the National shoot.
I agree with you Trap and would like to know myself. I prefer a single pistol and a rifle or shotgun. Not much on two pistol type matches though I have the guns.
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OK ! someone is going to have to explain to me (sometimes i"m pretty dense) why some people who belong to an outfit who prides itself on being the most authentic on the block, who do not and have never shot the class, want so desperately to eliminate the one class that most exemplifies what we are supposed to stand for?
And to answer your question, if WC was divided into traditional and open, and Originals was eliminated, I would still probably attend the National shoot.
I would never support a change that elminated "Originals". That class is one of the facets that defines NCOWS.
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Well, Yes I know I said on my last post I would be quiet, but! One of the fellows that shot pistoleer at Green River's NCOWS matches did so, because he wanted to shoot his muzzle loading shot gun. He had bought the gun from Dixie Gun Works just to shoot those matches. Said it was the most fun he had in a long time. If the Pistoleer class does away with the shotgun, that guy will not like it.
Just thought I would throw that out there. I do not care, have not and probably never will shoot that class. Do like watching others shoot it though. Tj
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Well, Yes I know I said on my last post I would be quiet, but! One of the fellows that shot pistoleer at Green River's NCOWS matches did so, because he wanted to shoot his muzzle loading shot gun. He had bought the gun from Dixie Gun Works just to shoot those matches. Said it was the most fun he had in a long time. If the Pistoleer class does away with the shotgun, that guy will not like it.
Just thought I would throw that out there. I do not care, have not and probably never will shoot that class. Do like watching others shoot it though. Tj
DITTO TJ
I have a member here as well , bought the same SXS , from Dixie It's a beauty.
He'd be fine with one C&B Pistol though ..even said so.."gives him more time to help pick up empties ( Bless him ! ) run the timer, or work a table ...
I think I'd like one myself...
And NO I would not do away with originals
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OK this my point.how do feel when a class you have shot in a long time is threatened? The smokless shooters that make up the largest shooting numbers at regional and national shoots seem to given the least respect in restructing.as rep of the reps I am trying voice concerns that seem to fall on deaf ears or eyes in this case. They have earned our respect by attending our events lets show we care even if they don't post here. THEY DO SHOW UP AT EVENTS.
As to the shotgun in pistolleer that was my personal opinion that I stated if it came to vote all that shoot this class have a voice that will be reflected in my vote.
we have all worked hard to make this a great club in very trying times I don't want to anything that will cause a loss of membership. Come up with a system that i can present without glaring looks and some even put hands on thier guns at the frist meeting.
still your friend no matter disaggrements we have jefff
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All,
I have revised my motion to add Men's & Womens 3 gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle, 1shotgun and allow hosting posses to sub-divide as they wish at Regional and National matches. Which would leave 16 classes, instead of over 60 classes as we now have.
Yuma
Sorry I missed this post but this looks great to me. As I would like to shoot my shotgun but haven't. The one pistol, rifle and shotgun as well as working cowboy and sod buster classes would probably attract me the most. As a senior (65 and climbing) it really makes no difference to me about a senior class as I really just go to enjoy the people and have fun. The competition side of it really isn't that important to me and you can ask those that know me in JCR too. I think I've been pretty near the back every time. :o
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The smokless shooters that make up the largest shooting numbers at regional and national shoots seem to given the least respect in restructing.
I have stated in the past that; if there is any breeze at all, smokeless shooters do not have any advantage over BP shooters.
The main thing that needs to be separated is two-handed shooters cocking with the weak hand. I have no problem with this style as long as they are not competeing with duelist/traditional shooters.
Books
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Well here I go again, Books, I do not agree with you at all. I shoot blackpowder sometimes because it is fun. Never on any kind of day can I shoot blackpowder as fast as I do smokeless, one or two hand hold. I am quicker on a windy day, but still not as quick as with smokeless. If you and others are, more power to you. Tj
I don't think we should do away with the Original class. I even think that at sometimes during the National or Regional the folks shooting that class should tell their history. Tj
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i find that shootin BP has its set of issues besides the smoke.loading ,lubing,cleaning,fouling,ignition,finding the right combo that the guns will accept over the lenght of the shoot.if no distinction is made i may get lazy and load smokless.now i have a choice to shoot with people that want use the dirty stuff and the issues it brings.i can also shoot black in smokless catagory if i need additional challange that day.
this next year my plan is to shoot a different catagory at each shoot so i can try all before i even consider removing one.jefff
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I agree with Jeff. I want try different classes. I have coach gun and I would like to shoot it occasionally, but not at every match. I mootly shoot smokeless now but I would like to try shooting some black powder cartidges.
I think the answer to the lot of issues is to have side matches. I love it when I can shoot a match in WC and then get a chance to do something different for one stage in a side match. They did that at Green River and I thought it was great.
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i find that shootin BP has its set of issues besides the smoke.loading ,lubing,cleaning,fouling,ignition,finding the right combo that the guns will accept over the lenght of the shoot..jefff
I agree that there are other considerations besides just smoke. But other than being able to do light loads, I don't think there is an edge to smokeless.
I don't think we should do away with the Original class. I even think that at sometimes during the National or Regional the folks shooting that class should tell their history. Tj
TJ; I believe that any Original shooter would be more than happy to discuss their character and the process used to create it.
Books
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Books, I do think that would be a big plus. Maybe we cold work it at a time when a lot of the members would be able to attend. Have always thought that would be neat. Tj
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Books & TJ,
As you know in my original proposal I seperated the classes into black powder and smokless classes. I can live with a Traditional and Open split, but agree with TJ that a black powder and smokleless split is better.
I believe that such a divison is more consistent with our historical perspective. It allows the shooter to choose his propellant based on the time frame of his persona. How a shooter would hold his firearm would have been a decision he made based on the circumstances of their use, not on the time frame of his persona. It allows the shooter to decide what hold to use based on the scenario and stage setup.
I would not support a deletion of the Originals class as it represents the zenith of the Levels of Authenticity to which we should all strive.
Ted
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ok my position is this the shooters i represent support the current class system but will consider additonal classes .if you want to try restructing ideas on these try it and what level of intrest you have.sorry i can't think of any other compromise that will not reduce membership and attendance.jefff
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Books & TJ,
I would not support a deletion of the Originals class as it represents the zenith of the Levels of Authenticity to which we should all strive.
Ted
Ted, et al
As far as the Originals, the only thing that sets it apart is the documentation portfolio. Shooting portion is the same as any other class, really.
I wonder if the Originals could be dropped as a separate class and treat the documentation portion as something like an added degree, accreditation, endorsement,- not sure what term would best describe it, that could be added to ANY class. That way you could shoot whatever combination of firearms your chosen persona that you document would have warranted.
I know the four gun categories may have to dig a bit deeper for historical examples, but such personages as visiting foreign dignitaries or European gentry that came to hunt our West, or people such as Custer, traveled with multiple and varied armament.
RCJ
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Ted, et al
As far as the Originals, the only thing that sets it apart is the documentation portfolio. Shooting portion is the same as any other class, really.
RCJ
RCJ,
I respectfully disagree. The Originals competition is what sets them apart in my mind. The peer review of the contestant's documentation, kit, and history is what I view as the core of the Original's Class. To difuse that type of scrutiny throughout an entire match would be time prohibitive and would frighten off many dilettantes.
As Ted stated, the Originals is a zenith class. Something that embodies the ideals our group stands for and who's expertise we should all be working toward.
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Jefff,
We'll be definitely adding a 2 pistol and one rifle class and maybe a 2 pistol one shotgun class. Will not drop any existing classes. The divison of the two additonal classes will be determined by participation. Let you know how it turns out between now and the convention.
Ted
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good deal ted.we don't start shootin til after the convention so my info will be awhile in coming .we know some will try it because it is new but i believe if you make it fun enough people will be drawn to it.learning how other posses operate is adding to how we run our clubs.best of luck and MERRY CHRISTMAS.jefff
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I suggest a split in the calibers we shoot. One class for 45 Colt and 44/40, and another class, the always embarrasing 38 Special with the mouse fart loads.
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I have seen "mouse fart" loads in both .45 Colt and 44/40 as well as .38 Special. Don't stereotype by caliber.
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Alas, but the sins of past omissions have yet returned to haunt NCOWS. This should have been done in 2005. Six years later & the same issues and the same reluctance yet again. ;)
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Well I see this apparently is going to have no end and sadly also probably no result. There are some very good suggestions with merit and for some unknown reason the SASS style four gun competition keeps getting included. We are NCOWS and should try to structure our classes to resemble what would be seen in a frontier community at any given time. I like the two gun users where a pistol and rifle are utilized as well as a pistol and shotgun. Likewise the three gun concept I think is a good one, where a shooter would use two pistols and either a rifle or a shotgun as his long gun. For the life of me however I just cannot imagine any of us encountering someone on a frontier street with a pistol on each hip and a rifle in one hand and a shotgun in the other. Imagine starting a stage like that! Which long gun do you drop in the street in order to get the other one into action. For those who just have to shoot four guns on every stage there are plenty of SASS clubs that will deliver what you want. The stages are structured at most SASS ranges for easy fast hits with the emphasis being on speed with all four guns and only 38 smokeless mousefart loads with shortstoke everything is really competitive. If you shoot bigbore traditional guns there with hardkicking full blackpowder loads you are going to finish on down the list even if you hit every target. It is a game that was invented utilizing the four guns common in the old west but not in a way that remotely resembled real old west shooting situations. Then along comes NCOWS with an idea to be more historically correct. Being the new kid competing with ann older established order of things we naturally are going to attract a more limited number of shooters but ones hopefully more like minded as a rule and shooters who not only enjoy shooting but also enjoy reading, studying and learning about our western history and culture. The point I'm getting to is this. If anyone can point to instances recorded of men carrying two pistols a rifle and a shotgun with them most of the time and resorting to all four in a fight, then I would readily consent to keeping the four gun classes. I can easily see the need for two and three gun classes with the only difference being the choice of carrying one or two revolvers, with the attendant breakdown by either male or female shooters. I also see the need to breakdown the classes by smokeless or blackpowder because it does make a difference. I think in NCOWS rules it is already stated that loads should be combat equivalent or at least up to original blackpowder velocity loads which would do away with the mousefart smokeless gamer loads that show up at many SASS matches. This should be enforced at least, just as we would not allow a short stroked model 66 in the lineup. I just fail to see the justification for continuing to copycat SASS with the four gun classes. If you just have to shoot all four guns on every stage go to a SASS match. They'd love to have you join in. Then when you want to shoot like it really would have been like to be in the old west come over to a NCOWS match for that experience. All of our new shooters be they young or older are in the two gun classes. Some later buy a third gun, usually a second pistol but they still just use one at a time at any given match. I think the economy has as much to do with difficulty recruiting as anything else and maybe more. I just don't want my old west shooting experience to resemble something from a $60.00 video game instead of something that occurred on a dusty street in a cowtown. I prefer to shoot blackpowder because its more authentic and to me much more fun. I shoot one handed with revolvers because that too is more authentic. I'm not really worried about my placement in the scoring when compared to others as much as I am concerned about doing the best I can do that particular day with whatever guns I chose to bring. To me doing it the right way, the authentic way is what its all about. Oh and I almost forgot, I shoot 45's because they don't make a 46. I just will never compete in an NCOWS match that requires the use of a shotgun a rifle and two pistols all on the same stage. It just ain't right.
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I don'tknowif anyone saw this earlierin this thread.
the Grand Army of the Frontier classes could be addapted,combined, and renamed to fit alot of what ya all are talking about.
"Marksman--
1-Milspec Repeating Rifle, smokeless powder.
2-Milspec Repeating Rifle, Black Powder.
(combine if numbers warrent)
--Rifleman--
3-Milspec Single Shot, Smokeless Powder.
4-Milspec Single Shot, Black Powder.
(Combine if Numbers warrent)
5-Militia-Lever action and/or civilian spec repeaters, rifle calibers.
6-Scout- Lever action, pistol calibers, single action revolvers.
7-Staff Officer- Handgun only, Milspec or of documented Military use in the Victorian era. No loading aids. The Staff Officer shall engage all targets, rifle and handgun, with his weapon. (the "Little" rule)
8-Infantry-Milspec rifle only. Shall engage only designated rifle targets.
9-Buffalo Scout- Single shot hunting rifles (no ejectors), single action revolver.
10-Forager Scout- Single shot (ejectors allowed) double barrel (No ejectors) or lever action shotgun, single action revolver. (Bummer class!) Target engagement as per the Match Director, reccomended to engage per rifle sequence on handgun targets.
""
See this for more ideas
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17271.0.html
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Marshal Davis, I'm have no idea how long you have been a NCOWS member. In the early days we mostly used 1 pistol, a rifle and a shotgun. Some of stated that 2 long guns would be very authentic but that is what the members wanted. Later many wanted to use 2 revolvers so the organization went with what the majority wanted. There was no SASS clubs in the Midwest so many of our new members weren't that historical minded, they just wanted to shoot "cowboy". There was a period of time that we didn't allow drawing from the leather and had to stage all revolvers and some started to use shotgun slides. When the short stroked rifle issues became an issue we elected a new executive committee with Dave Scott being elected Marshal. In those early years of his administration we had so many issues to deal with that we held 2 congress meeting a year. Several of those meetings went on for 2 days and for several hours each day. The results were that short stoke and shotgun slides were ruled illegal. We lost several clubs because of the rules, ( which were by the way not really changes since we had never voted to allow those in the first place and no one had presented us with any documentation that either was historically used.)
About that time Marlan Ingram offered his 3 levels of of NCOWS authenticity. I don't know that we ever voted to make it official but we came to think of it when thinking about where we fit in the organization.
About that time several posses were trying a proposed new class which required only 1 pistol and a rifle it became our most popular class, Working Cowboy.
Then came the Originals Class first proposed in 2005.
This didn't stop many of our members shooting all 4 guns but it gave everybody a choice. We have came full circle but if we eliminate 4 guns we will loose many members. This is a membership ran organization we can only be as authentic as the majority desires. What others choose to shoot should be no concern as long as long as each gun was available prior to 1899.
I hope this long explanation somewhat helps you understand how NCOWS developed and why we have 4 gun classes and why we most likely continue to do so.
Will Ketchum
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Hi
I don't have much of a horse in this race. I don't currently shoot cowboy. I live in Kansas and would like to if I don't get forced to move to Seattle (a very real possibility). My point in this discussion is to point out that the higher the entry cost in a sport, the fewer people will try it. The fewer people who try a sport, the fewer people you will have JOINING that sport. From my perspective, cowboy action shooting is tilted towards the newbie in this order:
1. Grand Army of the Frontier. More money on the clothes, but you only need a cap and ball revolver ($350) to shoot staff officer class (not shooting the staff officer). Total firearms cost of $350. :)
2. NCOWS, with the working cowboy class. ($350 if cap and ball, $450 if Colt replica) + ($700 to $1400) for a lever action rifle. Same amount of money on the clothing. Total firearms cost of $1050 to $1850. :-\
3. SASS with the need for 2 revolvers, a lever action rifle, and a double barreled shotgun ($500). Total firearms cost of $2100 to $2800. If memory serves, SASS also have requirements for extras such as spurs, leather wrist protection, wild rags, vests, and other cowboy attire. :(
One alternative that no one has mentioned at this point is to break up the awards differently. Instead of ONLY classing shooting scenarios that utilize 2, 3, or 4 firearms, have a class for single pistol, possibly with reloads.
Another whopping $0.02.
Merry Xmas, Happy Hanukkah
Mike
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3. SASS with the need for 2 revolvers, a lever action rifle, and a double barreled shotgun ($500). Total firearms cost of $2100 to $2800. If memory serves, SASS also have requirements for extras such as spurs, leather wrist protection, wild rags, vests, and other cowboy attire
The only catagory that calls for specific clothing is "classic cowboy", and "B Western". I shoot SASS and NCOWS wearing the same clothing, and firearms,
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3. SASS with the need for 2 revolvers, a lever action rifle, and a double barreled shotgun ($500). Total firearms cost of $2100 to $2800. If memory serves, SASS also have requirements for extras such as spurs, leather wrist protection, wild rags, vests, and other cowboy attire
The only category that calls for specific clothing is "classic cowboy", and "B Western". I shoot SASS and NCOWS wearing the same clothing, and firearms,
TRUE, I had time to go back to the SASS handbook. It's sort of a wash w.r.t. the clothing. You still have to own more guns for SASS, but you have more leeway to scrimp on historical clothing in SASS Duelist and gunfighter classes. If you DO choose to be more historically accurate, SASS (MAY) make you buy more accessories (neckerchief, cuffs, vest, etc). In the Originals from NCOWS, you just have to show you wouldn't have had them.
Mike
Wichita KS
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I'm not an NCOWS member, I don't shoot cowboy yet, lurking on the edges of the forums....
That said -- imho the "one pistol, one shotgun" class would be very appealing to newcomers. Yes, everyone and their brother will probably loan you their guns (I haven't experienced this as I haven't gone to a match yet, but y'all seem like a kindly bunch and I've experienced that kind of hospitality in my other hobbies -- oddballs tend to be a close-knit crowd), but there's something different about doing it with your own...
Regardless of what you call it, the cost-of-entry would be very low for a class like that. Cap-n-Ball revolvers can be had for under $200 these days, and many of us have grandpa's old single-shot shotgun -- if not, a used or even brand-new SxS won't set you back all that far.
There are two reasons I don't play yet -- 1 is time (not much you can do about that) and the other is $$. Between raising a family on one income, sending my wife to school, and paying off old debts, there's not much left in the "fun" fund. I have other hobbies as well that compete for both my time and my $$, most of which I can participate in without a largish outlay of funds. Shoot, if I had $2100 to $2800 in the bank right now I'd be looking at buying a second car, not a second gun ;).
Anyhow, just an outsiders perspective. Take it for what it's worth (not much -- probably less than the 2c you paid for it)
-Mad Dog
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Thank you... Mad Dog :) " imho the "one pistol, one shotgun" class would be very appealing to newcomers"
This is the main reason, I pinned the perposal to the 33rd Congress
At that time, there was some discussion, some adjustment to the motion, more discussion and the motion was tabled for I believe 6 months
to see how it faired a local shoots..
It seemed well received by the Texans, Cracker Cow Cavalry (Fla.) enjoyed it Dec 3 , it was even shot at Saluda Saddle Tramp shoot last May. It seems to have a following, we see come March :-\
I do know this, it will contenue to be offered here in CCC country.
Oddball huh ! I resemble that remark ! ;)
I enjoy 1 pistol & 1 SXS , well , because I have the guns and it's different
another Pard shoots it because that's what he can afford ( a Remy & a Century SXS ) a Rifle just is not in the cards.
Another who started because of 1 pistol & 1 Shotgun (also a century SXS) , has just bought a Puma so he can do 3 gun..but said he still likes 1 pistol & 1 Shotgun and will now try WC ...still shooting 2 guns
he too has a child in grade school vieing for his $$ attention
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Thank you... Mad Dog :) " imho the "one pistol, one shotgun" class would be very appealing to newcomers"
This is the main reason, I pinned the perposal to the 33rd Congress
At that time, there was some discussion, some adjustment to the motion, more discussion and the motion was tabled for I believe 6 months
to see how it faired a local shoots..
It seemed well received by the Texans, Cracker Cow Cavalry (Fla.) enjoyed it Dec 3 , it was even shot at Saluda Saddle Tramp shoot last May. It seems to have a following, we see come March :-\
I do know this, it will contenue to be offered here in CCC country.
Oddball huh ! I resemble that remark ! ;)
I enjoy 1 pistol & 1 SXS , well , because I have the guns and it's different
another Pard shoots it because that's what he can afford ( a Remy & a Century SXS ) a Rifle just is not in the cards.
Another who started because of 1 pistol & 1 Shotgun (also a century SXS) , has just bought a Puma so he can do 3 gun..but said he still likes 1 pistol & 1 Shotgun and will now try WC ...still shooting 2 guns
he to has a child in grade school vieing for his $$ attention
I would of loved to see this but shooting with Johnson Country Rangers, I seemed to be the only one that was for it when it came up. I would like to rotate between the pistol shotgun regardless of what they call it and Working Cowboy but really have no interest in the two pistol/rifle class. So I simply went with the flow as I also don't want to be the only one in a class either.
As a new member I guess I will stick to WC exclusively for next season. I do have the guns to even shoot in a 4 gun class just too much for my old hands in the course of a days shooting with the average of 5 or so stages. My right hand is pretty arthritic and little that I can do about it.
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If the shotgun/handgun would get new members, then I would be for it. Like I have said we have offered it for two years at Col. Bishop's Renegades and had one person shoot it once. Offered it at the Green River Rangers Company B at our last shoot, no one shot it. However we had a side match with working cowboy and town tamer (shotgun/handgun), about every one shot it. Does make a great side match when shot that way. Sounds like a lot to talk about at the convention. Tj
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If the shotgun/handgun would get new members, then I would be for it. Like I have said we have offered it for two years at Col. Bishop's Renegades and had one person shoot it once. Offered it at the Green River Rangers Company B at our last shoot, no one shot it. However we had a side match with working cowboy and town tamer (shotgun/handgun), about every one shot it. Does make a great side match when shot that way. Sounds like a lot to talk about at the convention. Tj
Hi
Like I mentioned earlier, I only shoot NRA Bullseye Piistol at this point. So, what's the difference between me showing up with a Colt SAA and a double barreled shotgun and shooting in Sodbuster class and showing up with the same two guns and shooting a town tamer side match? I'm not required to shoot in the main match to shoot in side matches am I?
Thanks
Mike
Wichita KS
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I am not sure on that question. At Regionals and the National shoots, the side matches are shot on a different day than the main matches. You must pre entry for the event. At West Side during the National we allow the club to shoot in the side matches (West Side). The non NCOWS members scores do not count toward awards however. At local levels, the side matches are usually after the main match. Tj
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I agree with Texas Jack on the shotgun?handgun class. It does make a great side match combining with working cowboy.
I am for any class that will have enough acceptance and bring in new shooters but now seeing that the class has been tried with little acceptance in some posse, it was brought up at two JCR meetings as whether to add it as a trial class and only one person showed any interest at all.
If the class works for a local club in their area let them offer it but at this point I see no reason to add it as an official class for all posse.
We discussed the possibility of having a combo town tamer/working cowboy side match at the Eastern Regional. Personally I think that would be fun if enough are interested. I shot it at Green river and found it to be a lot of fun.
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When we first started shotgun and one pistol is was as an alternate to the working cowboy class. We would allow whoever chose to use a shotgun and pistol to do so on half the stages so long as they complete the other half using rifle and pistol. It worked OK that way but it now seems more popular as its own class of town tamers who go through an entire match with just a shotgun and pistol. From month to month in any given month our shooters will be about evenly divided between working cowboys and town tamers. I have shot both and like both for different reasons. To me shooting a shotgun is not that much of a challenge so the emphasis falls on trying to really do better and concentrate on the pistol. In working cowboy there are challenges for both weapons. If I wanted to shoot four guns on every stage there are I believe four SASS clubs within easy driving distance of me. I would go there. But I prefer the feeling of being on stage with the guns I would normally carry most of the time which would be one pistol and a rifle. I like the classes used in the Frontier Army shooting. They also sound realistic, and plenty of fun. It was my understanding that NCOWS was started by cowboy shooters who also had experience with reenacting. The goal was to provide a venue to experience cowboy style shooting in a more realistic manner than was provided by SASS. To me SASS has always been about shooting certain guns (4) on every stage and with rifle and shotgun lying on a handy table just waiting for the cowboy to pick it up and engage targets in a given sequence. With NCOWS offering 2 and 3 gun options at our matches with a class for shotgun/pistol as well as rifle/pistol is certain to help draw in new shooters who just don't have the cash for four guns. It also creates a much more authentic atmosphere and feel for what the old west was really like. I'm very thankful we have outlawed the use of short stoke kits, shotgun slides, buscadero rigs, gun carts, and hopefully mousefart loads. I wish we could add to that list the shooting class that calls for someone to have two pistols a rifle and a shotgun all on every stage. That is the signature style of SASS. I just think we should aim a little higher. That is just my opinion but it also happens to be the opinion of the vast majority of our posse which is heavily reenactor oriented with just a few converts from SASS thrown in. And the requirement to shoot four guns on every stage is what ran most of the ex-SASS members to our posse. The best feature of all with NCOWS is that each posse gets to set its own style of shooting. The shooting style of members in Florida and Alabama may vary a bit from the style in Iowa or Missouri but from what I've seen and read on these posts we are mostly all much closer alike to each other than we are to any local SASS club. Maybe there is no way to eliminate certain classes unless we went strictly according to an authenticity approach. I just hate to see us be encumbered with 40 or 50 different classes.
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Reading about changing the shooting classes, getting new members was listed several times. What about old shooters that no longer can shoot rifles or shotguns due to health reasons? My doctor has advised to no longer shoot a shotgun and recommends that I do not shoot a rifle with my back problems. As it stands currently, I can not compete with other shooters because I do not have a class where only pistols are used. Will I have to stop shooting because a class is not available for me to shoot in? Let us try to keep the shooters we have now first and then worry about attracting new shooters. Let me emphasize the word compete- allowing a person to shoot versus a person allowed to compete with fellow shooters for score is another. With my health restrictions, shooting handguns are both enjoyable and fesible. I am sure that I am not the only person with such problems. Remember our bylaws address "physical limitations".
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I just spoke with a fellow on the phone .... He read about NCOWs on our site....
He saw Cracker Cow Cavalry and emailed, I gave him my Phone #....
His main concern, cost! He wants to join in, he knows about SASS, but 4 guns are out of the question (his estimate, $2000 at the get go)
He saw WC and Sod Buster @ NCOWS so we talked about those.... 2 guns are doable and in 38cal & Anty up the cost Shotshells, cheap at $6 or so a box for Estate Brand. He feels he can handle the fodder.
He has embraced Sodbuster, and plans to go in that direction .
CCC offers it as Main Match (frankly, I do not see a new person joining just for the occasional side match)
He's looking at either The Uberti Cattleman or a Remington with Kirst converter and the Century SXS hammer double.
Making him our 4th. Member (joining NCOWS) to shoot Sodbuster primarily.
He's 67 years young and as I said, is joining because SB is affordable....
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if that gets them to come to your shoot great,but i wonder how long it will be til wants to trade his shotgun for a rifle?only about 100-200$ dif to start with a rifle.
i think civil war jack is correct adding a handgun only class or alowing them subtitute two additional revolvers for the rifle in present working cowboy class at the national or regional shoots should be considered.jefff
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Well if he's like 99.9% like the rest of us ...he'll keep the shotgun, and when and if funds are there down the line, he'll get the next, and the next, and the next .
But for now, he's happy and joining in, and that is what & where he wants to be.
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That is exactly why I think NCOWS needs affordable entry level classes. So what if they add more guns and end up shooting in another class, we got them there in the first place and set the hook.
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Just remember to keep us hooked. Don't let us get off the hook.
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Just remember to keep us hooked. Don't let us get off the hook.
Aboslutely. I don't think anyone wants to neglect our long-time supporters. I am a greenhorn in NCOWS but I intend to be shooting as long as I can. Provisions should be made to accomodate those of us who are starting to feel our age and our giddyup has got up and gone.
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That is exactly why I think NCOWS needs affordable entry level classes. So what if they add more guns and end up shooting in another class, we got them there in the first place and set the hook.
exactly ... affordable classes !
2, 3 and 4 gun classes......
2 guns with the understanding ( 1 pistol, 1 rifle or 1 shotgun ) affordable (certainly more affordable)
3 guns ... 2 pistols 1 rifle (or maybe 3 pistols call it Shootist ? )
4 guns ... your standard 2 pistols, 1 rifle & 1 shotgun
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I like a lot of the ideas put forth on here. I agree that it would be good to bring in new members by using less firepower. 1 pistol and one long gun could do that. It's got my vote.
It doesn't matter what you do for me. I will come and shoot regardless. I own enough guns to take part in any of the classes pretty much. The only one I don't think I will ever qualify for is the Originals class. I won't use black powder myself. I love the boom and the smell but I hate the cleanup. I used to shoot BP but most of my modern guns don't work well with it. I'll just continue to use smokeless for my own sake. Yes. I'm lazy. ;)
I would like to see more side matches myself. Ones where I can shoot my pocket pistols and maybe try out a sharps.
Anyway, as a long time NCOWS member I remember back when only one pistol and one rifle were what we used.
I don't dislike SASS, but I don't want to see NCOWS be another SASS. I like the authenticity.
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One of the big draws for many in NCOWS is it's emphasis on authenticity. I have never seen a picture of anyone in the old west carrying 2 pistols, a rifle and a shotgun. I wonder which one they would drop when they had to fight.
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A simple rule change to Working Cowboy could cover alot of the issues. Instead of requiring 1 pistol and 1 rifle(15 shots) have the rules state that Working Cowboy is a 15 shot class and allow on-the-clock reloads. Someone with just 1 or 2 pistols can play and just reload. Someone could also shoot 3 pistols and be competitive. I don't know if only 1 rifle and reloading would be a good idea (too fast), state that at least one gun shall be a pistol. 1 pistol and 1 rifle would still be the best way but this makes this class an entry level class, a pistoleer class and rifle/ pistol class. This would also add lots of variety and be period correct.
Someone could buy 3 cap and ball revolvers for less than $600 and be competitive or spend $350 on used pistol and just have fun.
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I guess after thinking about it the most puzzling part of NCOWS class structuring that I noticed when joining was why are all the less historically correct classes shooting 4 guns divided up in different hand holds and powder when working cowboy is all lumped together.
I suppose one could argue the originals is the one handed black powder two gun class so my argument is this. If the two gun classes are only divided into open or traditional why cant the other classes do the same thing?
The pistoleer class (which appeals to me very much), using older guns in a traditional method you are back to needing four guns. ???
The argument is we need to keep the class numbers to a limit and I agree, you can't have a class for everyone. Problem is that rule only applies if you want to be historically correct in an organization that is supposed to be striving for authenticity.
Basically as long as you are willing to carry around and shoot an arsenal of guns we have a special class just for you, if you want to be more authentic well just try and fit in.
Yep that's sounds right for an organization that is supposed to be thriving for authenticity. ???
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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2011, 02:11:39 pm »
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There really doesn't need to be an entry-level class - not when 'Working Cowboy' uses the most basic of weaponry and such.
Weapons and leather-wise, it's the most affordable - and with little work, pretty much anyone who wants to put in the effort can look appropriate to the era.
Anything beyond that is dependant upon the individual's personal interest, and we can always offer guidance in how to find and modify clothing to fit the Impression.
As to pulling in young shooters - probably won't happen, unless they're already historically-minded.
The folks who actively shoot C&WAS are those who remember the romance of the TV Westerns and the oaters of the '50's and '60's - and those really don't have hollywood's support - though folks do say they like them.
I suspect more are viewed via 'Netflix' than on the Silver Screen.
Kids today dream differently and Gene and Roy aren't even close to their screen.
Posse-level shoots can do what they like - National-level shoots are (and should be) different - there should be an expected standard that isn't as important locally.
To reiterate:
If we're not careful, we'll be known as:
'NCOWS - A Class Outfit, Where Everyone Has Their Own Class'...
So long as we continue to play to our strength of greater fidelity towards the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' or 'IPSC With Hats', or the 'SASS-Lite' versions, we'll attract like-minded folks, and those will fill our ranks.
Ride for the Brand!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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St. George, You are so correct. Tj
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yes i think we do need to be careful about adding classes or changing structure that is why i suggested doing it on a posse level for a year to test it out before making recomendations to congress.with all the posses willing to try this we are more apt to find a workable solution without distressing the membership.jefff
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New shooters aren't necessarily young shooters. I didn't get into it until my mid-50s but the cost was still an issue.
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I looked at the number of folks that have voted on this issue here on CAS City, 50 and of those 2 don't care. Not much of a count and many do not want a change. SASS has gone after the young by making their shoots speed, weak loads, slick guns, and close targets. Sure they feel that to stay alive they must get the young folks. I guess that is what this is all about, we need the young folks too. However what we have going for us is HISTORY. Yes we like to shoot and love our guns too, but what brings us and will continue to bring folks to us is the love of the old west, the history of the old west. The people that join NCOWS are and always will be the ones that love that history. The clothes, leather, weapons, and the people from that time period. I don't think class changes will help one bit.
We already have the Working Cowboy class, that's the best thing we have going for us. The people that I speak for have only asked for one thing, a two handgun and one rifle. They like working cowboy, but would like to shoot two handguns, they don't want to shoot a shotgun.
I agree with Jeff, table it this year and let each posse try the different classes on a local and monthly matches. Tj
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This is a combination of SASS?NCOWS and GAF classes we used for a while at CRC.
4 gun classes:
_____ Two hand / strong hand = Traditional, Shootists, Duelists.
_____ A gun for each hand = Double Duelist, Gunfighter.
_____ Smoke makers = Frontier Cartridge, Cap-n-ball.
No shotgun classes:
_____ Range detective = 2 handguns and rifle.
_____ Rifleman = 2, 10 round pistol caliber rifles.
_____ Josey Whales = handguns, no rifle.
2 gun classes:
_____ Mil-spec repeater, Militia = I handgun and rifle caliber repeater.
_____ Mil-spec single shot, Buffalo Scout, Plainsman = 1 handgun and single shot rifle.
_____ Scout, Working Cowboy = 1 handgun and pistol caliber repeating rifle.
_____ Forager, = shotugn and 1 handgun.
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A simple rule change to Working Cowboy could cover alot of the issues. Instead of requiring 1 pistol and 1 rifle(15 shots) have the rules state that Working Cowboy is a 15 shot class and allow on-the-clock reloads. Someone with just 1 or 2 pistols can play and just reload. Someone could also shoot 3 pistols and be competitive. I don't know if only 1 rifle and reloading would be a good idea (too fast), state that at least one gun shall be a pistol. 1 pistol and 1 rifle would still be the best way but this makes this class an entry level class, a pistoleer class and rifle/ pistol class. This would also add lots of variety and be period correct.
Someone could buy 3 cap and ball revolvers for less than $600 and be competitive or spend $350 on used pistol and just have fun.
I don't know about other posses but at JCR it would be a real challenge to hit our rifle targets with a pistol.
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I don't know about other posses but at JCR it would be a real challenge to hit our rifle targets with a pistol.
Heck some of us have a problem hitting the pistol targets with a pistol. :-[
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First of all, I believe it would be best if we develop a class structure that we can ask the posses to try out for a year before we make any permanent changes.
At the Berger Sharpshooters we are now offering the following classes:
Working Cowboy, One pistol & one rifle
Two Pistols and one rifle
One pistol & one shotgun
Two pistols, one rifle & one shotgun
Each of the above will be split into BP Duelist, Smokeless Duelist and Open (two handed grip and any powder)
We will also offer Pistoleer as it is now.
Junior and Senior classes are one pistol and one rifle classes.
As most of our shooters use smokeless it was unfair to lump the duelists into an Open class. Most likely this would cost us the smokelss Duelist shooters. As they do not want to compete against two handed shooters and are unwilling to load BP rounds just to be able to compete against other Duelists.
These class divisions in no way impact our historical requirements.
We feel they may encourage other WAS participants to try NCOWS. It is our hope that will recruit new members, with
minimal impact to our existing shooters. To date some of our WC's have moved to the 2 pistol & Rifle class, as have some 4 gun shooters.
Regarding "too Many classes" That really depends on the number of NCOWS members. If we had 400 shooters at a match I do not feel that the above would be too many classes. I guess we need to decide if we want to have the attitude "if we build it they will come" or just keep doing what we have always done. Just remember " If you always do what you have always done you will always get what you always got."
If we really want NCOWS to grow maybe we need to research this issue and then decide.
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I don't know about other posses but at JCR it would be a real challenge to hit our rifle targets with a pistol.
At the KVC it is a challenge to hit rifle targets with a rifle.
Books
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At the Berger Sharpshooters we are now offering the following classes:
Working Cowboy, One pistol & one rifle
Two Pistols and one rifle
One pistol & one shotgun
Two pistols, one rifle & one shotgun
Each of the above will be split into BP Duelist, Smokeless Duelist and Open (two handed grip and any powder)
We will also offer Pistoleer as it is now.
Junior and Senior classes are one pistol and one rifle classes.
Add the Originals class and I like it.
Books
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Isn't the challenge what it's all about?
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Heck some of us have a problem hitting the pistol targets with a pistol. :-[
That would be me, my motto is, "I may be slow, but I'm highly inaccurate".
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Books,
The Originals class is offered. I omitted it because we are still working on having three members to participate. Tascosa Joe is probably ready. Maybe even Pancho. Tom jack and i are still getting stuff together.
Ted
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Books,
The Originals class is offered. I omitted it because we are still working on having three members to participate. Tascosa Joe is probably ready. Maybe even Pancho. Tom jack and i are still getting stuff together.
Ted
I am glad to hear that. It seems that there is a movement afoot to eliminate the Originals class. With 14 shooters who have already had their packet approved and seven more working on it, it is a much larger group than precieved.
Like the other classes, shooters who have shot Originals do not always shoot Originals.
Books
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Cole, and all,
I don't post very often, but it seems to me that NCOWS has about the best rule that can be had, when a Posse can offer whatever classes it wants as long as they stay within the parameters of NCOWS rules and regulations. Why would we want to change this. Is it just for one shoot,(The Nationals)? Our club, The Blue River Regulators, has tried several new catagories over the last few years. I would hate to see it changed where we can no longer do this. Just my two cents worth.
Quick Fire
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QF,
I do not think anyone is considering eliminating the ability of individual posses to offer unique classes at their matches. i know I am not. This restructuring if successful would only create the classes that are required at the national and regional level.
Ted
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I agree, what I have been discussing is for the National Shoot level, to add one class- a pistols only class. I agree with authenticity, and an all pistol class can be documented. Wish to reiterate that a class should be offered for people that is affordable, historically accurate, and will be available for persons wishing to compete on the national level that due to permanent or temporary health issues can not at the present time only because of inability to shoot a rifle/shotgun. This would include persons with a broken arm, sprained wrist, stroke issues involving on side of the body, shoulder problems, etc. The way it is now, you can not participate on a competitive level at the National Shoot with any of these problems if unable to shoot rifle/shotgun. I further feel it should be open to the general public as well as persons with "physical limitations" as listed in our bylaws. This is called competition, which is the purpose of having the National Shoot to start with. As far as shooting rifle targets with a pistol and everyone else is doing the same thing in the class-that is competition and can only blame myself for misses but not for missing a shoot to start with because I did not have a class to shoot in. Besides it could only involve the pistol targets set up for the two pistol classes that are already set up for the other classes. This would not require any additional targets to set for pistol only class. This could be addressed by the match director. Remember we are all getting older and could be us later in life.
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Any classes or class changes go deeper than just the nations and regional events. The by-laws state: "All NCOWS shooting classes, as established by By-Law, must be made available to all shooters at each National, Regional or Charter Posse Shoot"
Unless I am missing something that says that each posse must offer ALL classes at EVERY shoot. They may offer more classes but not less is the way I am reading this. So, any class changes would affect all shoots, and not just the nationals.
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That is correct, but if the class is not in the bylaws it is not offered at the National Shoot but can be offered on local and other levels with match director approval. But why leave people out of the biggest shoot of the year because of something out of their control. Do we want to tell people on all levels of competition that they can not shoot with us because of a limitation. The bylaws also state about "physical limitations". We are saying yes you can be a member but no you can not participate-this is what I can not understand, if I did understand I would worry.
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That is correct, but if the class is not in the bylaws it is not offered at the National Shoot but can be offered on local and other levels with match director approval. But why leave people out of the biggest shoot of the year because of something out of their control. Do we want to tell people on all levels of competition that they can not shoot with us because of a limitation. The bylaws also state about "physical limitations". We are saying yes you can be a member but no you can not participate-this is what I can not understand, if I did understand I would worry.
Jack, I appreciate your concern but having attended most of the National Shoots one of the things that has been consistent has been the accommodation of shooters who are unable do to physical limitations able to shoot the any of the classes. I have seen people in wheel chairs, missing limbs, or many other problems. We always find a way for them to participate.
Will Ketchum
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I could not compete at the 2011 National Shoot. Emphasis on competing, would allow me to shoot but not in a class or for score, just sling lead down range. I did get to watch everyone else shoot and have a good time.
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I have read all of the post on restructure of the shooting classes. I also know how NCOWS is set up and how it is governed. What we are talking about is a BIG change. It is my believe that every NCOWS member should be able to vote on this issue. Should not be our Congress, but every dues paying member. A ballot vote. This change will affect every member that shoot at a regional or national shoot. Also in a way every posse shoot at local levels. Let congress vote at the convention on which propossal and then mail a ballot to every member to accept or reject the propossal.
After review and review and much thought, I don't like any of what's been offered. I have to tell you I am growing tire of it all. guess we will see what happens. March is almost on us. Tj
There will be several that do not like this post. But then I have read many post here that I don't care for. Thank God this is still a free country and we still have freedom to voice our thoughts. Tj
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I don't know if it will go anywhere but I submitted a proposal to restructure the NCOWS shooting classes. There a few reasons that I feel the classes need to be restructured.
1. For an organization that strives for authenticity, our current classes do not reflect it. We have 10 shooting classes and 8 of them require two handguns, a rifle and a shotgun. Nobody in the old west carried two long guns.
2. To offer more authentic variety in gun combinations.
3. To make NCOWS more affordable and attractive to newcomers and prospective members.
4. To differentiate NCOWS from SASS.
5. To accommodate people who do not wish to shoot shotguns or have physical limitations that may prevent them from shooting long guns.
My proposal:
Combines two classes into one and removes the shotgun requirement (Senior and Elder).
It proposes making changes to two classes: Junior (changes from 4-gun to 2-gun) and Duelist (Drops the shotgun requirement making it a 3-gun class).
It proposes adding two classes; "Lawman" (1 handgun + 1 shotgun) and "Gunslinger" (2 handguns).
It leaves 4 classes unchanged (Pistoleer, Shootist, Working Cowboy and Originals).
The result would give us five two-gun classes (Junior, Lawman, Working Cowboy, Gunslinger, Originals), two three-gun classes (Senior and Duelist), and two four-gun classes (Pistoleer, Shootist). It provides a wider variety of firearm combinations; 2 pistols, 1 pistol + rifle, 1 pistol + shotgun, 2 pistols + rifle, and 2 pistols + rifle & shotgun.
It reduces the number of classes requiring a shotgun, especially for our older participants.
It provides two relatively inexpensive classes requiring only 2 pistols or 1 pistol + shotgun.
It provides many more options that are authentic to what was actually used in the period.
It provides a class for those who do not want to, or cannot, shoot long guns.
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I have read all of the post on restructure of the shooting classes. I also know how NCOWS is set up and how it is governed. What we are talking about is a BIG change. It is my believe that every NCOWS member should be able to vote on this issue. Should not be our Congress, but every dues paying member. A ballot vote. This change will affect every member that shoot at a regional or national shoot. Also in a way every posse shoot at local levels. Let congress vote at the convention on which propossal and then mail a ballot to every member to accept or reject the propossal.
After review and review and much thought, I don't like any of what's been offered. I have to tell you I am growing tire of it all. guess we will see what happens. March is almost on us. Tj
There will be several that do not like this post. But then I have read many post here that I don't care for. Thank God this is still a free country and we still have freedom to voice our thoughts. Tj
T Jack; I am in agreement with you. I have read the offered proposals and while I like parts of them all I can not agree with any one in particular.
The proposal to form posse level committees to submit restructuring plans seems to me the better action for the 2012 Congress.
Not everyone will be happy with any change but to change for the sake of changing is not good.
There needs to be a lot more thought and NCOWS wide input on this matter before any changes are made. As this will affect NCOWS for sometime to come.
Most likely not what everyone wants to hear but that is my opinion.
Regards
JW
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By my count, there are now six different proposals to restructure the NCOWS shooting classes. Going by past experience of Congress meetings, each will take 45 minutes to an hour to discuss, hash and rehash. This puts the meeting well past midnight without considering the elections, firearms approval process and the most important issue, fixing The Shootist.
Y'all, better pack a lunch.
Books
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Just to add to more to this, from the book "Encyclopedia of Western Gunfighters, by Bill O'Neal" out of 255 gunfights. There were 1 pistol used in 228, shotgun in 67, rifle in 121, derringer in 3, 2 pistols in 9, knifes in 14, bell guns or hideouts in 4. Very few if any had more than one gun being used by one person. From this research non of the shooting classes are historically correct, some less than others. Non of the gunfights were divided by gun hold or powder, most were over in a few seconds at most.
Make of this what you want.
J. R. Logan
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Bowiemaker, I could live with your proposal. Tj
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Bowiemaker, I could live with your proposal. Tj
I agree Bowiemaker's proposal is the one I like best and see it as an improvement over the current system. I'm new at this personally so don't know how much weight it carries but would like to shot more than just cowboy that I do now. Now I have the equipment to shot anything but cap & ball. I don't have the will to shoot 3 or 4 different guns for most of a day then spending time cleaning them afterward. I am also anal re-tensive when it come to cleaning my guns after I use them and can't let them sit a day or two. ;)
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Bowiemakers proposal effects current classes the very least and is the only one that would improve the overall class structure. It gives a large variety that would set NCOWS different from other shooting organizations. Of the few classes it modifies there are many other options added. It adds classes that would appeal to new shooters and those with physical limitations.
This proposal should be considered and very little time if any spent on any others. All the others would cause disappointment from too drastic of change.
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I think Bowiemaker may be on to something. I ecpecialy agree with reason #5.
I would suggest adding the option for rifle caliber rifles both repeaters and single shot. that would cover almostall the gunsused on the frontier. Still has a place for the 4 gun croud to compete but gives other combinations a chance.
If stages take less tiime to shoot then shoot more stages in a day ;D
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I wish to remind all that read this post. At the start it ask you to vote restructure or not. Yes 27 No 24 Do not care 2. With that kind of vote, there are not the numbers to restructure. About a fourth of those that voted yes have their own ideals. It is a mess. Tj
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TJ
You are right it is a mess. No class proposal made to date has been tested at any match. So they are all speculative at best. Do we really want to spend time discussing untried structures? There is no way to determine if our shooters will embrace or reject any of these new structures? Do we really want to approve a new system 3 months before the National match? The responses to date do not indicate a great desire to restructure. So why do we want to rush ahead and approve any changes at this congress? I say any changes we make at this congress would be foolish and have unforeseen consequences.
That is the reasoning behind the proposal to establish an Ad Hoc Committee to investigate the feasibility of restructuring and to take 12 months to develop recommendations for the congress to consider at its 2013 session.
Ted
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Cole. True. Tj
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Cole, I agree, this should be sent an ad hoc commitee as the proposal suggest. Then we can have greater input from NCOWS at large for a workable solution to present at the 2013 Congress.
JW
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To restructure in large blocks is asking for trouble. I can see the value of a few new classes to maybe attract new members, or allow for someone who has difficulty with long guns. But we can't accommodate all possibilities.
The only reason to eliminate a class is if it is not being utilized.
If we begin to eliminate classes that have fewer than 3 entrants at the national, then if a class is eliminated 3 years in a row, maybe it is time to look at dropping the class altogether. As long as a class is attracting shooters it is worth keeping. jt
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If I were running the Congress meeting, which I will not be:
Each person with a proposed change would get five minutes to "sell" it.
Once each proposal has been presented, the congress would get a multiple choice test/ballot.
A = Proposal 1
B = Proposal 2
C = Proposal 3
D = Proposal 4
E = Proposal 5
Etc.
D = None of the above.
We should be done in a half hour; with that part of the meeting.
Or we could withdraw &/or Table these and create the Ad-Hoc Committee, to report a reccomendation at the 2013 Congress meeting.
Books
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Books,
Given the sweeping nature of 'change' having both good and bad aspects to it in a general sense - I think that forming an ad hoc committee to review in time for the 2013 Convention is an excellent idea.
Right now, there's no really compelling reason to do much of anything - shooting class-wise.
Figuring out what to do about 'The Shootist' and it's future as a 'slick' magazine over a newsletter and a couple of slick 'Special Editions' dealing with the 'real' Old West, and associated topics is more urgent, as that affects the Membership as a whole, because their dollars go to support its publication - and as we know, getting it assembled and then put to bed and ready for print is a daunting task, but a Newsletter wouldn't have to be.
That way, more time could be better spent on solid articles and good photos - and those magazines would become our flagship, because each would add to the overall knowledge, as well as better assist a member in assembling his outfit and background.
NCOWS is an accomodating outfit - and many of the newly-proposed classes can be held at the Posse level as a test bed - with the National shoot adhering to its established classes until more feedback's been received from the field.
Let's fix 'The Shootist' before we fix anything else.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Books,
Given the sweeping nature of 'change' having both good and bad aspects to it in a general sense - I think that forming an ad hoc committee to review in time for the 2013 Convention is an excellent idea.
Right now, there's no really compelling reason to do much of anything - shooting class-wise.
Figuring out what to do about 'The Shootist' and it's future as a 'slick' magazine over a newsletter and a couple of slick 'Special Editions' dealing with the 'real' Old West, and associated topics is more urgent, as that affects the Membership as a whole, because their dollars go to support its publication - and as we know, getting it assembled and then put to bed and ready for print is a daunting task, but a Newsletter wouldn't have to be.
That way, more time could be better spent on solid articles and good photos - and those magazines would become our flagship, because each would add to the overall knowledge, as well as better assist a member in assembling his outfit and background.
NCOWS is an accomodating outfit - and many of the newly-proposed classes can be held at the Posse level as a test bed - with the National shoot adhering to its established classes until more feedback's been received from the field.
Let's fix 'The Shootist' before we fix anything else.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
The only problem with that is after shooting a year with JCR I've not seen anything that isn't accepted offered, such as a single pistol/shotgun or 2 pistol match. Only heard it mentioned once at near the end of the season. So really have doubts it happens on the local posse level either.
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Joe, we voted to try some new classes as a test this coming year at the Christmas banquet.
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Joe, we voted to try some new classes as a test this coming year at the Christmas banquet.
Good to hear as I couldn't make the Christmas banquet and hadn't heard anything mentioned about it. As you know I couldn't make due to getting my van totaled the night before. I will make the upcoming conference for 1 day next month but don't anticipate ever making a national shoot. Now that isn't from lack of want, but do to my business I can't shut it down for more than one day.
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Reasonable suggestions I can live with...
".....proposal to establish an Ad Hoc Committee to investigate the feasibility of restructuring and to take 12 months to develop recommendations for the congress to consider at its 2013 session." Cole Bluesteel
" ....withdraw &/or Table these and create the Ad-Hoc Committee, to report a reccomendation at the 2013 Congress meeting." Books OTool
"Given the sweeping nature of 'change' having both good and bad aspects to it in a general sense - I think that forming an ad hoc committee to review in time for the 2013 Convention is an excellent idea." St. George
" ... NCOWS is an accomodating outfit - and many of the newly-proposed classes can be held at the Posse level as a test bed - with the National shoot adhering to its established classes until more feedback's been received from the field.
Let's fix 'The Shootist' before we fix anything else." BINGO !
This is were we are bleeding :(
-
St. George;
I think you and I, are pretty much in agreement. (But that isn't really surprising.)
I also like the Major's summation.
Books
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Books,
All of the associated publication problems with 'The Shootist' can be fixed if we turn it into a semi-annual or even a quarterly slick magazine - though two well-thought-out issues per year's still a good thing.
That way - the more immediate information can be sent out in Newsletter format - maybe even in newsprint, if we cut down pictures and save them for the slick.
We're basically bleeding money trying to keep to the printing schedule we've been using - changing over to a less-expensive format would greatly lessen the load.
Addressing this problem should be considered paramount, and it'll give us a healthier NCOWS to ride with.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
-
As an elected member of NCOWS as a whole, I do want to offer this viewpoint:
NCOWS is many things to many people. For many, it is a shooting organization. For some, it is a place to exchange historical footnotes. Some use it as an avenue to reenacting. A small, but vocal percentage of our membership trade ideas here, on this forum. A much larger group exists out there who do not roam this vast "Internet range". For that group, our publication is their source of connection to the organization.
We also have a sizable membership who do not live within a reasonable distance to attend local, regional, or national gatherings. For that group, the periodical is their only contact with the organization.
We all recognize that our periodical is our "crown jewel". We all understand the financial, logistic, and manpower challenges we have with the Shootist. If a restructure of our periodical becomes a legislative item, please keep these thoughts in mind.
-
Good to hear as I couldn't make the Christmas banquet and hadn't heard anything mentioned about it. As you know I couldn't make due to getting my van totaled the night before. I will make the upcoming conference for 1 day next month but don't anticipate ever making a national shoot. Now that isn't from lack of want, but do to my business I can't shut it down for more than one day.
Yes I remember, I thought you knew about the classes.
Johnson County Rangers voted to try some of these new classes as a trial basis for a year since there was discussion on restructuring. Several of us agreed we would get together and try the different classes each month.
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St. George, I agree getting something straightened out so that all members can be given needed information in a timely fashion should be foremost at this years Congress. A simple update should be very easy to publish on the NCOWS web page for down load.
Major2 We need first and foremost to get ballots to our members in a timely fashion so that all members will be given an opportunity to vote so that the Congress in 2012 will be representative of the membership and can vote on these and other issues. Also we should take note of the ballots being time sensitive and make sure this does not happen again in the future.
T.J. Yes it is a mess. We have (the people that read and post here) thought a lot about it though, and in doing so can let our Senators and Representives know what and how we think so they can make a vote that represents the membership. By doing this We may have saved a lot of valuable time at the 2012 National Congress meeting. Celeste
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“Ain’t I a member too?”
It is my sincere hope that each of you will read the entire document before you decide to make comments.
Sojourner Truth made a very famous speech at a women’s convention in December 1851 Akron , Ohio . Notice the date. Slavery was still an accepted thing in the United States. I admit it is somewhat before our time, but it is well documented and it does have a very profound message.. Some people are not familiar with the speech. The name of her speech was,
“Ain’t I a Women ?”
Sojourner Truth:
"Ain't I a Woman?", December 1851
Sojourner Truth (1797-1883): Ain't I A Woman?
Delivered 1851
Women's Convention, Akron, Ohio
Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?
That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?
Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?
Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.
If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.
Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.
This text is part of the Internet Modern History Sourcebook. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts for introductory level classes in modern European and World history.
Unless otherwise indicated the specific electronic form of the document is copyright. Permission is granted for electronic copying, distribution in print form for educational purposes and personal use. If you do reduplicate the document, indicate the source. No permission is granted for commercial use of the Sourcebook.
(c)Paul Halsall Aug 1997
halsall@murray.fordham.edu
The Members of this NCOWS organization have been saying on the WebSite - Cas City, that NCOWS needs to grow, get new members and retain old members, And not alienate old members. I have heard this at National, Regional and local Shoots as well as at the Conventions in the Past……..
Ain’t I member too?
I may not have shot in the Originals class but, An’t I a member Too?
A member may only dress to Marlan Ingrams level one, and shoot a Ruger Vaqureo, but they paid their membership dues on time ..Aain’t they a member Too?
“Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?”
Ain’t I a member too?
If a new member joins NCOWS and pays their membership dues on time, ain’ t he a member too?
If a member wants to try to get their stuff together for the Originals Class , and it is not quite right, aint’t
they a member too?
If a member wants to shoot at Marlin Ingrams - level one- forever, ain’t they a member too?
If a member wants to participate in nothing but the Originals, ain’t they a member too?
If we want to keep all these members, shouldn’t we treat them all as members too?
Is a member that has been a member for a number of years more important than one that has
been a member one year? Ain’t they a member too?
If you are elected to the position of Senator……don’t you represent all these members too?
If you are a club reprehensive to the National Convention….You represent your club members, but, all these members too?
If you are a member of the Executive Committee……don’t you represent all these members too?
If a person has been on the membership list for years, but not paid their dues this year or last , they ain’t a member too!!!
Celeste
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Yes I remember, I thought you knew about the classes.
Johnson County Rangers voted to try some of these new classes as a trial basis for a year since there was discussion on restructuring. Several of us agreed we would get together and try the different classes each month.
All I have heard is what I've read on here and JCR's site. I must of missed it somewhere along the line.
-
“Ain’t I a member too?”
It is my sincere hope that each of you will read the entire document before you decide to make comments.
Sojourner Truth made a very famous speech at a women’s convention in December 1851 Akron , Ohio . Notice the date. Slavery was still an accepted thing in the United States. I admit it is somewhat before our time, but it is well documented and it does have a very profound message.. Some people are not familiar with the speech. The name of her speech was,
“Ain’t I a Women ?”
Sojourner Truth:
"Ain't I a Woman?", December 1851
Sojourner Truth (1797-1883): Ain't I A Woman?
Delivered 1851
Women's Convention, Akron, Ohio
Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?
That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?
Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?
Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.
If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.
Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.
This text is part of the Internet Modern History Sourcebook. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts for introductory level classes in modern European and World history.
Unless otherwise indicated the specific electronic form of the document is copyright. Permission is granted for electronic copying, distribution in print form for educational purposes and personal use. If you do reduplicate the document, indicate the source. No permission is granted for commercial use of the Sourcebook.
(c)Paul Halsall Aug 1997
halsall@murray.fordham.edu
The Members of this NCOWS organization have been saying on the WebSite - Cas City, that NCOWS needs to grow, get new members and retain old members, And not alienate old members. I have heard this at National, Regional and local Shoots as well as at the Conventions in the Past……..
Ain’t I member too?
I may not have shot in the Originals class but, An’t I a member Too?
A member may only dress to Marlan Ingrams level one, and shoot a Ruger Vaqureo, but they paid their membership dues on time ..Aain’t they a member Too?
“Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?”
Ain’t I a member too?
If a new member joins NCOWS and pays their membership dues on time, ain’ t he a member too?
If a member wants to try to get their stuff together for the Originals Class , and it is not quite right, aint’t
they a member too?
If a member wants to shoot at Marlin Ingrams - level one- forever, ain’t they a member too?
If a member wants to participate in nothing but the Originals, ain’t they a member too?
If we want to keep all these members, shouldn’t we treat them all as members too?
Is a member that has been a member for a number of years more important than one that has
been a member one year? Ain’t they a member too?
If you are elected to the position of Senator……don’t you represent all these members too?
If you are a club reprehensive to the National Convention….You represent your club members, but, all these members too?
If you are a member of the Executive Committee……don’t you represent all these members too?
If a person has been on the membership list for years, but not paid their dues this year or last , they ain’t a member too!!!
Celeste
Peers that voten for Ima Sureshot is a vote to brung fillabustering to the NCOWS congress.
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I am perhaps long winded at times. Sometimes I digress. However, I do try to listen to others reasons for voting for or against something and make an informed decision. I try to read the rules for myself and go by them. I try to have an open mind. Celeste
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That's OK, Ima.
Oratory was a high art form in our timeframe, and people eagerly attended long, flowery speeches and sermons.
Remember the note that Edward Everett sent to President Lincoln after the Gettysburg Cemetery dedication?
Mr. Everett, a noted orator, was the original keynote speaker for the event. It was almost an afterthought that someone supposed we might as well invite the President, too.
Mr. Everett spoke for a long time, expending wind and energy to the crowds delight. Mr. Lincoln stood up and delivered his address so quickly, most of the photographers were caught unprepared to capture the moment, save one lone image made rather hurriedly.
The following day Mr. Everett wrote the President:
"I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes."
RCJ
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RCJ, thank you I think. Oratory had a high tradition at the college I attended as well.Celeste
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Here are some numbers from last year.
I don't know how JCR compares to other posses in numbers, but in 2011 we averaged 29 shooters at our regular matches for a total of 114 shooters at four regular matches.
For brevity, I combined mens. womens, smokeless and black powder in each class to compile data for the seven styles of shooting currently offered. What I think significant is the fact that five of the seven classes require four guns yet 59% of the shooters chose the two-gun Working Cowboy class.
Working Cowboy and Duelist make up 76% of the shooting with no other class breaking 10%. I also think it is significant that Working Cowboy and Duelist are two of the most authentic classes in terms of the pistol/rifle combination in Working Cowboy and one-hand grip in Duelist.
Another significant point is how many of our seniors choose to shoot classes other than senior and elder. Would that be different if it were a two or three gun class?
While I do not have numbers for other posses, I think this is a pretty good representation since it does include one regional and the nationals. I would very much like to see how this compares to other posses.
JCR
Working Cowboy 75 66%
Duelist 17 15%
Shootist 11 10%
Senior/Elder 1 1%
Pistoleer 1 1%
Junior 0 0%
Originals 0 0%
At the Eastern Regionals
Working Cowboy 14 41%
Senior/Elder 9 26%
Duelist 7 21%
Shootist 3 9%
Pistoleer 2 6%
Originals 0 0%
Junior 0 0%
At the 2011 Nationals
Working Cowboy 34 51%
Duelist 11 16%
Senior/Elder 8 12%
Shootist 5 7%
Originals 5 7%
Pistoleer 3 4%
Junior 1 1%
Grand Total: JCR, Eastern Regionals, Nationals
JCR, ER, Nats
Working Cowboy 123 59%
Duelist 35 17%
Shootist 19 9%
Senior/Elder 18 9%
Pitoleer 6 3%
Originals 5 2%
Junior 1 0%
Total Shooters 207
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At our inagural match the .....
Working Cowboy- 5
Sodbuster - 3
Duelist - 3
Shootist- 1
Woman Shootist- 1
Senior/Elder- 1
Pistoleer- 1
Junior- 0
Originals- 0
as of now our Second Match entries 3 weeks out read...
Working Cowboy- 6
Sodbuster - 3 (though one may have to work his real job that day)
Duelist - 3
Shootist- 1
Woman Shootist- 0
Senior/Elder- 0
Pistoleer- 1
Junior- 0
Originals- 0 (at this time 3 are putting their packets together or waiting for approval, they are currently shooting WC )
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The Blue River Regulators for 2011 had 197 shooters for an average of 28 shooters per match.
Of those 197 127 shot 4 guns
57 shot 3 guns
14 shot 2 guns.
Further breakdown
Smokeless shootist=37
Smokeless duelist=27
Black powder shootist=5
Black powder duelist=5
Junior=6
Smokeless working cowboy =13
Black powder working cowboy=1
Smokeless Range Detective=44 (Top catagory)
Blackpowder Range Detective=13
Senior (4 Gun)=24
Elder(4gun)=11
Gunfighter-11
So as you can see every range is going to differ as far as what are the favorite classes.
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The Blue River Regulators for 2011 had 197 shooters for an average of 28 shooters per match.
Of those 197 127 shot 4 guns
57 shot 3 guns
14 shot 2 guns.
Further breakdown
Smokeless shootist=37
Smokeless duelist=27
Black powder shootist=5
Black powder duelist=5
Junior=6
Smokeless working cowboy =13
Black powder working cowboy=1
Smokeless Range Detective=44 (Top catagory)
Blackpowder Range Detective=13
Senior (4 Gun)=24
Elder(4gun)=11
Gunfighter-11
So as you can see every range is going to differ as far as what are the favorite classes.
I've felt if range detective was offered it would replace working cowboy as the most popular class. Your stats seem to back that up.
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I've felt if range detective was offered it would replace working cowboy as the most popular class. Your stats seem to back that up.
What is Range Detective?
-
As an elected member of NCOWS as a whole, I do want to offer this viewpoint:
NCOWS is many things to many people. For many, it is a shooting organization. For some, it is a place to exchange historical footnotes. Some use it as an avenue to reenacting. A small, but vocal percentage of our membership trade ideas here, on this forum. A much larger group exists out there who do not roam this vast "Internet range". For that group, our publication is their source of connection to the organization.
We also have a sizable membership who do not live within a reasonable distance to attend local, regional, or national gatherings. For that group, the periodical is their only contact with the organization.
We all recognize that our periodical is our "crown jewel". We all understand the financial, logistic, and manpower challenges we have with the Shootist. If a restructure of our periodical becomes a legislative item, please keep these thoughts in mind.
Pancho, I agree with you 100% about how NCOWS appeals to folks for different reasons. A "one size fits all" mindset will not work well, in my opinion. I am sure that there are many who are members of NCOWS that have no nearby posse to go to and the magazine is the only connection they might have with NCOWS. I would hateto see the magazine go away.
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Range Detective is a class where 2 NCOWS legal revolvers and an NCOWS legal rifle are used. No shotgun. And I want to stress that all ranges are going to be different in what is going to be the most popular class.
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Range Detective is a class where 2 NCOWS legal revolvers and an NCOWS legal rifle are used. No shotgun. And I want to stress that all ranges are going to be different in what is going to be the most popular class.
Thanks and don't see it in most places with more shooters than Cowboy though.
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Quick Fire, That is the class the folks at Col. Bishops's Renegades (West Side) have asked for. More of them have told me they like working cowboy, but wish they could shoot two handguns. They don't like shooting the shotgun for many reasons. Tj
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I shoot Working Cowboy because I don't want to shoot a shotgun 2 NCOWS legal revolvers and an NCOWS legal rifle would be great class I think we would find there a lot more like me out there..CC
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We started shooting Range Detective three or four years ago and it quickly became one of the most popular classes. We do break it down for black powder or smokeless.
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Thanks and don't see it in most places with more shooters than Cowboy though.
Joe, I bet you'd be surprised at how many folks would like to shoot two revolvers without messing with a shotgun. This class draws folks from not only working cowboy but from the other classes as well as it is in between.
It's one of the classes JCR voted to try this year.
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Joe, I bet you'd be surprised at how many folks would like to shoot two revolvers without messing with a shotgun. This class draws folks from not only working cowboy but from the other classes as well as it is in between.
It's one of the classes JCR voted to try this year.
You really aren't a fan of shot guns are you Cliff. ;D
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You really aren't a fan of shot guns are you Cliff. ;D
joe you have more choices of shooting in classes that require a shotgun at jcr than any other.i don't know what your concerns are to be honest.if you want call me at859-985-3232 day or pm me your # and will call you.jefff
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You really aren't a fan of shot guns are you Cliff. ;D
I love shotguns.....for wing shooting, waterfowl, and turkeys. ;D
They are probably the best choice for a home protection gun and very historically accurate for use in our classes although I don't feel shooting both a shotgun and rifle is very historically accurate, still that is not my main reason for not shooting one.
I don't think I'm alone in not being turned on by shooting stationary steel targets from a few feet away with a shotgun. Probably for the same reason a shotgun makes a good home defense gun, its kind of hard to miss unless you are playing some kind of crazy speed game. In other words I see no challenge in shooting the shotgun at steel plates other than speed which just doesn't do anything for me.
-
...
I don't think I'm alone in not being turned on by shooting stationary steel targets from a few feet away with a shotgun. Probably for the same reason a shotgun makes a good home defense gun, its kind of hard to miss unless you are playing some kind of crazy speed game. In other words I see no challenge in shooting the shotgun at steel plates other than speed which just doesn't do anything for me.
Hi Cliff
The reasoning behind my wanting to shoot shogun is primarily because they're less expensive, and because a hammered double barrel is something I think I'd like even if I try NCOWS and then decide I hate cowboy action shooting.
I would suggest that moving the targets out would make for a more interesting shoot.
Just my $0.02 and worth every dollar... ;D
Mike
Wichita KS
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1961MJS: I love my hammer guns. I shoot Trap with one from time to time. 32" barrel with Full and Fuller chokes are a little hard on phesants.
T-Joe
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joe you have more choices of shooting in classes that require a shotgun at jcr than any other.i don't know what your concerns are to be honest.if you want call me at859-985-3232 day or pm me your # and will call you.jefff
I have no concerns Jeff just messing with Cliff a bit. ;D
I would like to see the 1 pistol shot gun class but none of the classes are a game breaker with me to be honest. I'll shoot what is available regardless. I do prefer the 2 gun classes to more guns as I don't like cleaning a lot of guns when I get home from a meet is all. I have guns the guns that I could cover any class but cap & ball regardless.
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Hi Cliff
The reasoning behind my wanting to shoot shogun is primarily because they're less expensive, and because a hammered double barrel is something I think I'd like even if I try NCOWS and then decide I hate cowboy action shooting.
I would suggest that moving the targets out would make for a more interesting shoot.
Just my $0.02 and worth every dollar... ;D
Mike
Wichita KS
Moving targets would be a lot of fun but a lot of work building. I needed a shotgun on the man running away from the gallows last year at the Nationals ;D
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Moving targets would be a lot of fun but a lot of work building. I needed a shotgun on the man running away from the gallows last year at the Nationals ;D
How about something like http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Shooting-Accessories/Clay-Shooting%7C/pc/104792580/c/104769180/sc/104269680/Do-All-Full-Cock-Competitor-Trap/707313.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-shooting-accessories-clay-shooting%2F_%2FN-1100229&WTz_l=SEO%3Bcat104269680 I've done this in the past and it is fun as well as challanging.
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Moving targets would be a lot of fun but a lot of work building. I needed a shotgun on the man running away from the gallows last year at the Nationals ;D
Cliff,
You'll need to come and shoot at the Texas Peacemaker range sometime. They've got a line shack with a "running man" target on a 60 yard zip line. The target is a man-size steel silhouette on a pully. At release, he glides diagonally downrange across the target array and downhill into a creek. He gains speed as he goes. They have a big truck tire that stops him and a hand crank winch to reel him back in.
One of the funnest rifle and pistol targets I've shot at.
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West Side tells me the gallows is being rebuilt and moved to another part of cowboy town. The bad news, no more running man. I sure loved that stage. Tj
Just got an e-mail from Cash Creek, the running cowboy may be back for the National. Tj :D
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Now that is one stage I would like to use a shotgun on, that is an elusive rascal. ;D
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At the Sharpshooters we have a couple of knockdown targets that release a bird when they fall. Also have a couple of poppers that throw a can when hit. These are a whole lot better than stationary targets for the shotgun fans.
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I posted an arial of our range...note the Action ranges bays just over the 20' berm in the 300meter range.
We never schedule the two Disciplines hot in the same weekend, but we have a standing rule anyway , a shot over any berm will
get you a match DQ.
That said, Obviously we can not use anything that would pop UP ....I'm working on a spinner and have made several horzonial swing
targets....
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Major
Nice setup!
Ted
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I just got home from a work day at the WSSC :o and the about NEW gallows is just about done ;D ...also the running man will be back.. ;D CC