Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The American Plainsmen Society => Topic started by: Caleb Hobbs on August 24, 2011, 01:32:23 AM
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I was wondering what other folks had, or were thinking about getting, to take part in The American Plainsmen Society. Before TAPS came along, I wasn't really focused on a specific persona. My character was a plainsman from the late 1860s to mid-1870s -- a Kansas to the Northern Plains hunter, scout, trader. I had a Spencer carbine, a rolling block buffalo rifle, and a brace of Richard-Mason Navy conversions. Now I want to go earlier. I've got a Lyman Plains rifle to start with, but I'm not sure where to go with my handguns. A pair of single-shot muzzle loaders would take me all the way back to 1840, if that's what I wanted to do. Or a couple of '51 Navies ...
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Year is 1854 indan territory.
Lets see I have a 50 cal. hawken and a newfangel 51 navy. Seeing as how now I ride guard on
a stage coach. Also have a Greener 10 ga. percussion shotgun 28inch bal. but I cut them down
to 16 inch so to be handier at close in. Coot
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For the past 20 years my personna has been a Cowboy/Special Ranger from the 1870's. 7 1/2" Colt and a 73 Win. I am a gun aquirer, I have an 1860 RM Conversion and a Henry. I have an H&R Trapdoor Carbine with an original '79 sight added.
I have a 2nd Gen 1860 Army. My Navy went down the road years ago.
I have recently acquired a Shiloh Sharpes That looks like it could have been a converstion from a Civil War rifle. I have a 1760 Lancanster Style Long Rifle and a HB Trade Gun.
But for this new time frame, I am not very well prepared. Dang, I have to buy more guns, phooey! (lie, lie, lie)
I resently purchased an old Santa Fe Arms Hawken. If you have been around the mountain man thing very long you will remember them from the early 70's. They were an early Italian copy and fairly good representation. My oldest son carried it off, so it now lives in GA.
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Howdy,
I have a replica of a Browning Harmonica rifle and a Kentucky rifle in 40 cal.
Regards
Colt
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Currently
1. 1858 patent Remington 44
2. 1851 Colt 44
3. 1860 colt Army 44
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Getting
Lyman Great Plains 50 Caliber
Traditions Crockett 32 caliber
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I was wondering what other folks had, or were thinking about getting, to take part in The American Plainsmen Society. Before TAPS came along, I wasn't really focused on a specific persona. My character was a plainsman from the late 1860s to mid-1870s -- a Kansas to the Northern Plains hunter, scout, trader. I had a Spencer carbine, a rolling block buffalo rifle, and a brace of Richard-Mason Navy conversions. Now I want to go earlier. I've got a Lyman Plains rifle to start with, but I'm not sure where to go with my handguns. A pair of single-shot muzzle loaders would take me all the way back to 1840, if that's what I wanted to do. Or a couple of '51 Navies ...
As long as you have the Lyman rifle you might look at their pistols in the same caliber. I did, and they're just what the doctor ordered...in my case.
I also have a pair of 1860 Army revolvers in .44 and a fine Ethan Allen double barrel single trigger .36 pistol by Hoppes.
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I carry a Lyman Great Plains .50 and a pair of '51 Navies. I have a .50 percussion dueling pistol as well. The Lyman was factory built but I stripped all blue finish, drawfiled the modern markings off and gave it a nice deep brown all over. I also refinished the stock to a deep, hand rubbed oil finish. Looks like a custom or dare I say an original Hawken? Good set to roam the Plains with I think.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
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Howdy!
For a character in the early to mid-1850's (in California like the central gold fields or Los Angeles; probably the same for Texas as well); a Hawken in 50 caliber, and a colt Dragoon. (Don't forget a large bowie type blade!)
I can't imagine someone who was putting themselves in serious situations going without a Dragoon, if they had access to one. Yes, they're heavy and weren't originally made for belt carry, but having carried and shot one, I wouldn't want anything in a smaller caliber instead. (Remember the saying about 'comforting' vs 'comfortable'?) Besides, when it was empty, you could always bludgeon someone with it...Have a '51 Navy colt as well; might use that as townie carry, or back up to the Dragoon if going someplace expecting real trouble.
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Howdy,
I have a replica of a Browning Harmonica rifle and a Kentucky rifle in 40 cal.
Regards
Colt
WHERE IS THE COLOUR ME JEALOUS EMOTICON????? I would love a Harmonica Rifle!!!!!
I kind of based my perosona of a mid 60s missouri boy heading west to get out of the borderwar. I have 2 1860 Colts, 2 1851 Navy Colts, 1 Remmington and a Henry Rifle.
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Colt Fanning brought the Harmonica gun to our NCOWS shoot. What a hoot to watch. It is pretty slow and I think you might want a mountain howitzer carriage to carry it around but it was way fun. Colt is always bringing something cool to shoot.
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The Panhandle Plains Historical Society Museum in Canyon, Texas has a lot of neat items. If any of yall every go thru the Amarillo area it is worth the half a day or day to stop and see.
They have a half stock plains rifle that belonged to Charles Goodnight. It is fairly late to our period but pre-Civil War.
The rifle has a back action lock and appears to be about .54 Cal.
Do any of you know of a source for a rifle of this nature other than the Tryon sold by Dixie?
Another rifle that I think would be good for this period would be a Leman.
The only source I know of for this one is Tennessee Valley Muzzleloaders.
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Colt Fanning brought the Harmonica gun to our NCOWS shoot. What a hoot to watch. It is pretty slow and I think you might want a mountain howitzer carriage to carry it around but it was way fun. Colt is always bringing something cool to shoot.
I happen to have a full scale Mountain Howitzer that I could be talked in to parting with. :)
[It fits the Plainsman time period. They were in the US arsenal form 1836-1890.]
Books
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I carry a Lyman Great Plains .50 and a pair of '51 Navies. I have a .50 percussion dueling pistol as well. The Lyman was factory built but I stripped all blue finish, drawfiled the modern markings off and gave it a nice deep brown all over. I also refinished the stock to a deep, hand rubbed oil finish. Looks like a custom or dare I say an original Hawken? Good set to roam the Plains with I think.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
I bought my Great plains about 1975-1976 and the first thing I did was strip and brown it and replace the sights. I now has a silver blade front in a copper base and a cast iron FULL buckhorn of the old style. I put about 200 brass nails...not tacks but 3/32"headed nails on it to personalize it. The stock is as issued, a dark honey with wonderful figure enhance by a semi-annual rubbing with Virginaville wax. I have no idea what I'll do if I run out because I haven't seen it for sale in almost 30 years.
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I do an impression as a member of the Los Angeles Rangers (ca. 1854-1857) as well as a Nicaraguan Filibuster.
- I carry a custom made .54 Hawkins pattern rifle.
2nd generation Navy Six with squared trigger guard.
Silver-handled bowie with 9" blade.
Original bone handled "Bowie" pattern bag knife.
-Dave
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This turned out to be a fun thread. Cool photos, Tsalagidave. You need to become a member. (Of course, that applies to the rest of you who haven't joined yet, too.)
Forty Rod -- It had slipped my mind that Lyman also made a pistol. Good idea. I think I'll eventually end up with at least one single-shot pistol for very early, and a brace of revolvers for later. I've been looking at 1851 Navies locally, but all I've found so far are .44s, and I want a correct caliber. We've got the annual Fort Bridger (WY) rendezvous coming up over Labor Day weekend. This year I'll have a few more items to look for.
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I normally spend Labor Day weekend hunting doves, but I am going to put Fort Bridger on my calendar for next year.
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This is a real interesting thread. I might have some guns to fit in. I have an old fashioned style rifle. a .50 cal Traditions Deerslayer. It is a sidelock with a half stock that looks like it was carved out of a 2x4 with a plastic ramrod but it shoots rounjdball real well and isn't too heavy to carry. I also have 3 Pietta remington new army .44 revolvers. (they keep following me home).
have a hand made belt knife that I can shave with and use as a mirror.
now I would just need to add some pre 1860 clothes and a good story to go with it all.
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Tascosa Joe -- Fort Bridger is a trader's rendezvous -- lots of vendors and tons of tourists. They have shooting, but it isn't a big part of the event. A lot, if not most, of the local shooters attend the Fort Buenaventura Labor Day rendezvous in Ogden, Utah. I haven't been to Bridger to camp in years, but if you make it up here next year, I'll be there.
Bow View Haymaker -- Tell me more about your rifle. I did a search on Traditions Deerslayer and couldn't find anything. I'm curious.
Caleb
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I was wrong. It's a Traditions "Deerhunter" Case solor onthe sideplate and the octogon barrel. Plastic sights,butplate and ramrod.
It isfar from historicly accurate but looks ok from a distance and shoots well.
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Bow View -- That's a good looking deer rifle (great reviews, too), but unfortunately it isn't period correct, which is what we're striving for here. If you ever get a chance to pick up a historically accurate rifle -- wooden ramrod, fixed iron (or brass, silver, or copper) sights, no plastic, correct silhouette, etc., we'd love to have you.
We probably need to come up with a list of firearms that fit the 1840 to 1865 period. I'd hate for someone who wants to get involved with TAPS to buy a gun that doesn't fit the period. A good choice would be a Lyman Plains Rifle, but I know there are others out there.
Caleb
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As I was looking at it more last night I began thinking that it wouldn't be to hard to replace the plastic parts with correct iron or brass. Sights, buttplate, trigger gard and ramrod and guide. The basic design seems to be there. I know the varients of the time were many.
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BVW: Years ago I had something similiar. I exchanged the sights for a Track of the Wolf Buckhorn rear and a brass and german silver front. Reshaped the forearm and attached a poured nose cap and it worked out pretty well. Wooden ram rod. I ground the spur off of the trigger guard and we have a short rifle that is beginning to look right. It will do for a start.
T-Joe
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Reshaping the forearm to get the ramrod closer to the barrel would be needed, too. I don't know how the thimble currently attaches to the barrel, but I've never seen a ramrod hang so far below the bottom flat.
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I have been thinking about our future, and it looks good! Wonder what everybody thinks about guns for shoots once we start getting together (postal or in person). Period correct rifle is a given but 1 pistol ?, 2 pistols ?, scattergun ? Most Plainsmen probably wouldn't have bothered with a scattergun. Distances on the Plains are too great. However, this time also includes wagon train emmigrants and '49ers both of which could have carried shotguns. Carrying 2 pistols (or more) was a common practice with cap and ball revolvers but the more guns we require, the more we become like the other groups. Since we are NOT timing ourselves, it gives us more latitude when it comes to reloading.This levels the playing field between revolvers and single shot pistols. I like that. It becomes more realistic and historically accurate. This also allows a person to carry the firearms that he feels is appropriate for his personna and still be able to compete. Another bonus!
Also, I realize that we are The American Plains---'MEN' Society. Does that mean that we are a 'men only' group or do we include any woman who wants what we want from the sport. Personally, I believe that we should include anyone regardless of sex to join as long as they are willing to strive for the levels of authenticity that the rest of us seek. In fact, our time period was the era when non-native women began arriving in the West in numbers. This would also allow family involvement, again keeping authenticity levels in mind.
I am sure many of you feel the same way but if not let's discuss the pro's and con's of these issues. My only concern is that we remain dedicated to the concept of HISTORIC ACCURACY. We all want to have fun but we should not sacrifice authenticity ito do so. I don't want to sound like a Thread-counting Nazi. I just believe that it is easier (and cheaper in the long run ) to do the research and do things right the first time. Too often I have seen the "it's close enough" and "if they had it they would have used it" mind set ruin a good thing. I don't want TAPS to fall into it.
I don't want to offend anyone or seem 'elitist'. The farthest thing from my mind. I just figure if we are going to do this, we might as well do it right. Thanks fer listening.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
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I happen to have a full scale Mountain Howitzer that I could be talked in to parting with. :)
[It fits the Plainsman time period. They were in the US arsenal form 1836-1890.]
Books
Are you the origonal Warthog?
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I have been thinking about our future, and it looks good! Wonder what everybody thinks about guns for shoots once we start getting together (postal or in person). Period correct rifle is a given but 1 pistol ?, 2 pistols ?, scattergun ? Most Plainsmen probably wouldn't have bothered with a scattergun. Distances on the Plains are too great. However, this time also includes wagon train emmigrants and '49ers both of which could have carried shotguns. Carrying 2 pistols (or more) was a common practice with cap and ball revolvers but the more guns we require, the more we become like the other groups. Since we are NOT timing ourselves, it gives us more latitude when it comes to reloading.This levels the playing field between revolvers and single shot pistols. I like that. It becomes more realistic and historically accurate. This also allows a person to carry the firearms that he feels is appropriate for his personna and still be able to compete. Another bonus!
Also, I realize that we are The American Plains---'MEN' Society. Does that mean that we are a 'men only' group or do we include any woman who wants what we want from the sport. Personally, I believe that we should include anyone regardless of sex to join as long as they are willing to strive for the levels of authenticity that the rest of us seek. In fact, our time period was the era when non-native women began arriving in the West in numbers. This would also allow family involvement, again keeping authenticity levels in mind.
I am sure many of you feel the same way but if not let's discuss the pro's and con's of these issues. My only concern is that we remain dedicated to the concept of HISTORIC ACCURACY. We all want to have fun but we should not sacrifice authenticity ito do so. I don't want to sound like a Thread-counting Nazi. I just believe that it is easier (and cheaper in the long run ) to do the research and do things right the first time. Too often I have seen the "it's close enough" and "if they had it they would have used it" mind set ruin a good thing. I don't want TAPS to fall into it.
I don't want to offend anyone or seem 'elitist'. The farthest thing from my mind. I just figure if we are going to do this, we might as well do it right. Thanks fer listening.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
Each time I started to answer this Bill, someone has knocked on the door or called, so I will try again.
The following is just my input and the view of our local group. It is not intended as authoritarian just an opinion.
1. The American Plainsmen Society: We think of this as descriptive of a time frame and too describe people that lived or traveled across the plains. That would include Mountain men, Scouts, Dragoons, Homesteaders and pioneers just too name a few. It would include all genders and ages, so it would include the whole family.
2. Taking a note from the Barracks, the less the gun requirement the better for new people. A person might only have a Revolver or perhaps a single shot rifle that fits the period. I feel the time period is more important than the number of required weapons.
3. Historical Accuracy: As a person that is as interested in the historical research as the shooting, I think this is something that should be striven for. It is not always possible for the individual to have every item of the exact time period or be totally historically accurate from day one. As a local group we set up two camps ... Accurate and not accurate. In the accurate camp we use the 15 foot rule while encouraging people to work toward accuracy. We have a member that wears a shirt that would fit the 1780's and I have a couple shirts that are of the 1870's styles. We figure these are better than modern western shirts with snaps.
Our group is new and the weapons owned by folks is very limited. We hold our matches accordingly.
1. rifle match to include single shot percussion muzzle loaders, single shot paper cartridge and even a metallic cartridge if proven to fit the time frame.
2. Revolver or single shot percussion pistol
3. Wooden bows for archery
We also hold a combination match and folks borrow the use of a weapon they do not own.
Well I got this much in before the next knock on the door and hope it helps start the conversation. It is not meant to be my thinking in total, just a jumping in place.
I have a felling this would have done well as its own thread but that thought only struck as I have finished typing. ;D
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Interesting. I've got a 3rd model dragoon, might have to look for a Mississipi rifle to go with it.
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Year, 1857. I have a .50 Austin & Halleck half stock percussion plains rifle, browned barrel and furniture, coupled with a custom buffalo horn powderhorn with adjustable spout. Sidearm a .36 cal. Whitney revolver.
RCJ
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TwoWalks, I was just looking for the beginnings of a concensus. I think you and I are pretty close to the same ideas.
1. I agree that this group could easily include women and children. In fact, historically speaking, women are much more
authentic to this period than the Mountain Man era and there are 1,000s of women Buckskinners. I believe that we
should absolutely include women in TAPS.
2. I think that if we require a certain number and type of firearms we might as well join one of the existing shooting groups.
I didn't mean to imply that we should all have the same types, I was only curious about the kind of shoots that people
were thinking about. Pistol. Rifle. Pistol and Rifle. Etc.
3. I don't expect anyone to be Historically Accurate right off the bat. I was only encouraging people to think before they
acquire a bunch of stuff that they might someday regret getting. I am a member of the American Mountain Men. We
are known for our high level of authenticity and yet even we give our prospective members a year to get their gear
together. This is supposed to be fun. I don't believe that anyone ever becomes 100% Historically Accurate. If we did,
some of the fun would go out of it.
I have high hopes that someday we will be more than a forum group. I would like to get together and enjoy being TAPS
together "on the ground." However, we should consider setting some guidelines for future members. Thats all.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
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Just picked up an 1851 Colt Navy, .36 Cal this weekend. Looking at a .50 Cal Hawken..I Guess My Harrington-Wesson .45-70 may need to be put on the shelf for a while...Good to see discussion going on about accuracy...Look forward to getting this Rolling...May be moving to Missouri soon...will be closer to being a Plainsman for real...God Bless..
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I believe we should let everyone start out with just one firearm, flint or percussion, and set up matches accordingly. If someone has two (or more!) that fit in our historical period, then that's great! We can set up matches for rifles, smoothbores, pistols and revolvers...or a combination of the above, depending on who brings what to a match.
I sort of foresee that a pistol/rifle, revolver/rifle or smoothbore/pistol, smpoothbore/revolver combo match might happen.
Just my $0.02 worth, pards!
Jake
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I recall that one of the first things mentioned about this group was that we would not time our shoots. If the eimphasis is on
accuracy rather than speed, single shot pistols could easily compete against revolvers. One of the best parts of this group is that
everyone can carry and shoot the guns that they feel is appropriate to their personna. We are all here for fun. I see alot of other
groups get too caught up in rules and regulations. We are the incarnation of the free spirited men and women who left their homes East of the Mississippi and made their own way in the West. This group, like the West itself is big enough for all. I know that there will be growing pains but I believe that it will all be worth it in the end.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
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I'm glad to see so many who are interested in a historically accurate group. I think hanging on to that goal is going to be our most difficult challenge.
I also want to see this become more than a forum group. Right now I'm thinking at least one encampment somewhere in the West every year, and maybe smaller regional camps if enough people are interested. As far as women and kids, I absolutely support this. (By the way, we already have a woman in the group; I hope to see many more.)
As far as shooting matches, I've envisioned a number of different styles -- from steel targets to paper (doesn't have to be a NMLRA bullseye target, either; charcoal on butcher's paper would work just fine), to an assortment of gourds, chili peppers, pieces of cork, charcoal and whatever else we can scare up. Woods (or plains) walks and renegade attacks are a lot of fun if you've got the right terrain.
Since we are NOT timing ourselves, it gives us more latitude when it comes to reloading.This levels the playing field between revolvers and single shot pistols. I like that. It becomes more realistic and historically accurate. This also allows a person to carry the firearms that he feels is appropriate for his personna and still be able to compete.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
Couldn't have said this better, so I didn't try.
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Drydock and River City John -- sounds good. Hope to be able to shoot with both of you someday.
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Drydock and River City John -- sounds good. Hope to be able to shoot with both of you someday.
If our trails meet, it would be a pleasure.
(Appreciated your citing The Shootist's review of Where The Buffalo Roam on your website. It's always a treat to meet someone who "tries to get it right". One of the many reasons I enjoy NCOWS and GAF.)
RCJ
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TwoWalks, I was just looking for the beginnings of a concensus. I think you and I are pretty close to the same ideas.
1. I agree that this group could easily include women and children. In fact, historically speaking, women are much more
authentic to this period than the Mountain Man era and there are 1,000s of women Buckskinners. I believe that we
should absolutely include women in TAPS.
2. I think that if we require a certain number and type of firearms we might as well join one of the existing shooting groups.
I didn't mean to imply that we should all have the same types, I was only curious about the kind of shoots that people
were thinking about. Pistol. Rifle. Pistol and Rifle. Etc.
3. I don't expect anyone to be Historically Accurate right off the bat. I was only encouraging people to think before they
acquire a bunch of stuff that they might someday regret getting. I am a member of the American Mountain Men. We
are known for our high level of authenticity and yet even we give our prospective members a year to get their gear
together. This is supposed to be fun. I don't believe that anyone ever becomes 100% Historically Accurate. If we did,
some of the fun would go out of it.
I have high hopes that someday we will be more than a forum group. I would like to get together and enjoy being TAPS
together "on the ground." However, we should consider setting some guidelines for future members. Thats all.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
Bill I think we are in total agreement actually. :) including the later statement:
"I recall that one of the first things mentioned about this group was that we would not time our shoots. If the eimphasis is on
accuracy rather than speed, single shot pistols could easily compete against revolvers. One of the best parts of this group is that
everyone can carry and shoot the guns that they feel is appropriate to their personna. We are all here for fun. I see alot of other
groups get too caught up in rules and regulations. We are the incarnation of the free spirited men and women who left their homes East of the Mississippi and made their own way in the West. This group, like the West itself is big enough for all. I know that there will be growing pains but I believe that it will all be worth it in the end."
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TwoWalks, I kinda figured we were closer to agreeing then these Dog-gone computers let us know. Hard to hear a man's tone and meaning in a "post". Sit down here by the fire and pass me that jug.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
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River City John:
Thanks. I have a lot of respect for NCOWS, and what it represents. GAF, too, although I'm not as familiar with that organization.
Caleb
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Diary of Edmund Pace Jarvis:
The year is 1854. Life is still tough in the wilds of East Texas. I moved my wife and twelve children from Kemper County Mississippi to Smith County, Texas in 1852. The little settlement of Jarvis Switch that we established here is starting to flourish. The Weatherby and Lanham families arrived shortly after we did. Their hard work and friendship have been a godsend. What started out as a small trading post opened by Mr. Weatherby, has blossomed into a full fledged general store in just two years. More families are staying close and estblishing new farms instead of just passing through on their way further West. Even with civilization advancing in this new land, I still find it necessary to carrry firearms when traveling. Col. Colt's new belt pistol is not as cumbersome as the Army pistol I have become used to carrying since our arrival; and I also carry the little .31 caliber pocket model pistol with me as an insurance against suprise. For longer trips, I carry my shotgun instead of the heavier Tryon rifle that came with me from Mississippi. The shotgun would be more effective in the dense pine forests than the large bore rifle.
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Sounds like a pretty good outfit, Fingers. Welcome to TAPS.
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New Project: Modified Pietta Paterson Revolver:
I'm going to pick up a Pietta Paterson when I get home and do some "modifying" on it. First, I'm going to cut the barrel from 9" to 7 1/2" and reset the front sight. Then I'm going to re-profile the bottom of the one-piece walnut grips to more closely resemble the ones on the originals. Here are some photo-shopped pictures of what the "before" and "after" shots should look like:
Before:
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i132/macreedy/P1120655a.jpg)
After:
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i132/macreedy/mod2P1120655a.jpg)
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Jake,
Neat project...Keep the thread updated. Waiting to see the finished product...
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Jake,
Neat project...Keep the thread updated. Waiting to see the finished product...
Second this motion... great looking project.
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Will do, pards! I hope to have it completed by the end of September.
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I think a variety of guns should be allowed and I like the idea of a 2 gun match with flexible rules ( not really rules but agreed informal contests)
One of the things that I dislike now about SASS is the overly complex rule book. I didn't start out as rocket science---just a bunch of friends shooting old guns and not really keeping score.
In fact, I would recommend that there not be scoring or timing at gatherings. Only shooting exhibitions informally held as if between friends.
I have an example of what I am referring to: my son and I like old WW 2 guns and we will go to the range and have an 8on 8 match where we decide on the distance ( usually 100 yds) and see who can shoot the best 8 shot group.
We use 8 rounds only because of the Garand. You can use any rifle and there is no time involved --only accurate shooting and fun. I usually use the 03 and he usually uses the Garand. we only do this game once and then move on to other things. It is like a ritual or a fun thing that we look forward to and is competitive yet simple.
APS could have a similar informal type match. Basically a Postal match in person.
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My favorite for the late 1850s would be the 1841 Harpers Ferry rifle, and a brace of 51 colt navies. I have a percussion Taylors sharps
but it would be 1859 at best. Thats when the slant breech sharps was dropped from production. Post 1860-69 would be the 1841 Miss, or 61 Springfield, or P1858 Enfield for myself as well. I also have an Invest Arms half stocked plains rifle (Cabelas Hawken) that is lots of fun to shoot slugs at 100 yards and beyond.
The St. Louis Hawken was king of the plains for sure, but there were many other riflesmiths making and selling plains rifles
along the Missouri river towns as well. From Arrow Rock to St. Joe, Missouri.
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I guess my persona would be that of a Townsman plying his trade. My trade would be a tailor in Lecompton, Kansas Territory.
When business from the Capital was slow I would have hired a wagon to go buff hunting west of Topeka. As a reserve member
of the Kansas Territorial Militia, I would have had access to the 1841 Harpers Ferry issued to us from Ft. Leavenworth as approved
by the US Government. On one occasion we did get called to arms to defend Lecompton fron Jim Lanes Free State Militia. When
Dragoons intervined, Lane and his forces dispersed.
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I was looking at the Dixie Cataloge. They have what they call The Mortimer Rifle. it is built by Pedersoli. It is an earlier half stock octagon to round .54 cal flintlock. I think it is a forerunner of the plains rifle. It in many respects resembles a rifle at the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco that has provanance to Jim Bowie at the Alamo. The rifle was on loan to the museum, it may not be on display anymore. The last time I was in there was probably 1996. The Bowie gun had a lot of brass inlay that is absent on the stock of the Italian gun. I keep thinking this rifle converted to percussion would have a very high cool factor.
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They have what they call The Mortimer Rifle. it is built by Pedersoli.
I keep thinking this rifle converted to percussion would have a very high cool factor.
Tascosa here is your vision. The Mortimer Whitworth, it is special order and only available in .45
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Sure enough. I dont care for the sights. But way cool.
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In 1855 Colt brough out a 56 cal. black powder revolving carbine call the Root.
Side oiler 20inch bl. wern't real populer but some did makeit out west by1857.
coot
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Ol' Coot,
You can get a /45 Caliber replica of that Colt Root Model 1855 rifle from Dixie Gun works, but it will set you back $2100!
Jake
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I.m not a member of the plainsman society, but this sounds like a fun thread. I am a Living historian. Mexican war military.
So for the scenario, Los Angeles, 1850. Recently left the service. Arms: 1842 Patterson .36, 1842 Musket .69, .50 Caliber Plains Rifle,
hand made Bowie, 1840 Officer's Saber. I'd like to see more Angelenos involved.
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Col. Havoc,
Why not send your contact info to Caleb Hobbs and join TAPS? All it takes is to be a member is the desire to do so. Just a thought. The Mexican War falls exactly in our time frame.
'SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES'
BUFFALO BILL
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Col Havoc. I have a great interest in the Dragoons especially the one in California. One of my favorite stops when going North/South is Ft Tejon. My drive way goes down hill and makes a sharp left turn. At that spot is Dragoon Gulch where a group of Dragoons were camped during the 1850's and were the local authority during the Gold Rush here in Sonora, California.
As Buffalo Bill said, sign up because the Dragoons were a major part of our era and we look forward to sharing of the knowledge.
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Col. Havoc, I join the above pards in welcoming you to The American Plainsmen Society! Please do sign up, sir!
Jake
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Colonel Havoc:
I'll add my two centavos here and encourage you to join The American Plainsmen Society. It would be great to have members who are interested in the Dragoon period -- even if they have just left the service. I'd also like to see more folks join who have an interest in early California history. We already have a few members from Central California, but I know there are a lot of others who post on CASCity who represent this period. Get enough together and we could have our first regional event.
Caleb
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Wow, lots to catch up on on a snowy day along the Applegate Trail ...
I'm drawn to the 1841 Mississippi as a very useful rifle well rooted in the period. Another fascinating rifle is the Wesson boxlock. The actions are available but you'll have to have a smith build the whole rifle. Here is a shot of the butt end of one supposedly carried by Texas Ranger Jack Hayes circa 1849. Note the lollipop tank rear sight:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/BillOregon/IMG_0177.jpg)
Years ago, I served as the guest firearms curator for the Southern Oregon Historical Society, which has an extensive collection of original firearms from the 1840s-1890s. There was a tremendous amount of variation among the "Plains rifles" in terms of caliber, barrel length and thickness, conventional lock vs. back-action lock, etc. Unfortunately, owing to financial difficulties the firearms collection is in storage.
Regarding rules, my take is basically "PRAISE BE TO GOD WE AREN'T INTO FASTEST TIMES," from which a whole host of negative issues would be likely to spring. Honestly, back in the day, your shot had to be accurate to tell.
I would also like to see continuing flexibility on the arms required; too many folks get discouraged having to buy two pistols and rifle and a shottie right out of the gate, and if you surveyed every wagon on the Oregon Trail circa 1862, I'll bet you'd find very few that had this arsenal under the hemp canvas ...
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I agree. Although I have seen a lot of documentation of individuals traveling the plains with a host of pistols, carbines, shotguns and rifles, the most common among immigrants appear to be flint and percussion rifles or shotguns and a hunting knife.
I saw a mention of the Colt Root rifles from Dixie for $2100. Buyer beware, these are from the (now defunct) Palmetto Arms in Italy (not to be confused with Palmetto Arms LLC of S. Carolina). The Italian Roots are of notoriously bad quality and Dixie actually pulled the shooter reviews at one time because they were such hunks of junk. If Pietta made the Colt Root rifle, I'd be interested but I haven't heard anything good about the shooting performance of the 1855 Root repops.
-Dave
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This is my brace for early period, Texas Revolution era.
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This is my foundational gear, an 1841 Mississippi, .54 caliber; Second Model Dragoon; bag and horn; Jefferson bootees. Long trail ahead though ...
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/BillOregon/IMG_0008.jpg)
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Capt Mac, I like the look of your shooting bag and patch knife. Any chance of a close up of it? Also, what's in it? I never get tired of checking out other shooter's kits.
Oregon Bill, that is some serious firepower you have there. I'm jealous, and I want a .54 US Yeager Rifle too.
-Dave
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Since everyone else is showing their 1840-50s stuff, I figured I would also.
My main gun is a .54 Cal full-stocked plains rifle with squared "haversack"-styled shooting bag. My second gun (for the packhorse) is a 20ga./.62 southern mountain gun that is smoothbore and great for picking off small game but it will put a patched .610 ball pretty close to the mark at 75 yards regularly. The pack is more of a traditional 1770s era eastern woodlands pattern. In addition to that, I have a brace of navy sixes. (I usually carry only one when I am out on the trail.) The Colt pocket is a fun little backyard plinker but other than winning knife fights, it would not be my first choice for border warfare.
-Dave
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Dang, Dave, more swell gear! How long you been doin' this?
:)
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Hi,
I bought a Pedersoli Scout .50 Caliber cap 'n' ball rifle and am thinking that it would be the perfect rifle to use as a poor 1862 cavalry private ... something he might have brought in with him from home ... I am told it would not work for that purpose 'cause it is a cutdown 'Pennsylvania' style rifle ... any thoughts
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/PedersoliScout.gif)
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Hello, Wad:
Good question. The governing body had been working on what is correct and what isn't, but unfortunately we let things slide as we got into fall and people started gearing up for winter. As you can imagine, it's a slow process even under the best of conditions, since so many firearms from this period could be locally made.
Just remember that what we're trying to create is a group with an emphasis on historical accuracy. Not one hundred percent, but better than the average rendezvous or some of the cowboy shoots, where you can see a wide range of non-PC outfits. Think Level-One NCOWS, or what the folks at GAF are trying to accomplish.
You're right in that your rifle is shorter than the norm, but the basic silhouette is that of a Kentucky (or Pennsylvania, the difference is slight). If you showed up at an American Plainsmen Society match or encampment with it, I'd allow it. Especially for a woman or youngster.
What we're trying to stay away from is the Thompson Center or CVA or Cabela's Hawkens, which are no closer to an actual Hawkens rifle than a Henry Big Boy is to an original Henry. The Lyman Great Plains rifle or the Pedersoli Kentucky rifles are acceptable; the Traditions Kentucky rifle with its brass band connecting a two-piece stock isn't.
I'll also add that the governing body is in agreement that we need to give new members one year to get their basic outfit together. Hopefully within the next month or so we can have a list of correct guns available and posted.
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Hi,
I am thinking that I will run into this big windfall that allows me to get an L Romano Maynard ... something that was issued to the Confederate Cavalry at one time ... but at $1K just to to get on the list and $3K more upon completion, I don't see it happening tomorrow ....
But if I end up buying something new, I want a breechloader ... and the Maynard seems to be the only breechloader that could be reoladed and carried by a lowly Confederate enlisted guy .... and I understand that the Model 1 Maynards were issued to some Confederate Cavalry .... just very few in Florida .... sigh
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Maynard_Mod_1_1_small.jpg)
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I have been thinking about our future, and it looks good! Wonder what everybody thinks about guns for shoots once we start getting together (postal or in person). Period correct rifle is a given but 1 pistol ?, 2 pistols ?, scattergun ? Most Plainsmen probably wouldn't have bothered with a scattergun. Distances on the Plains are too great. However, this time also includes wagon train emmigrants and '49ers both of which could have carried shotguns. Carrying 2 pistols (or more) was a common practice with cap and ball revolvers but the more guns we require, the more we become like the other groups. Since we are NOT timing ourselves, it gives us more latitude when it comes to reloading.This levels the playing field between revolvers and single shot pistols. I like that. It becomes more realistic and historically accurate. This also allows a person to carry the firearms that he feels is appropriate for his personna and still be able to compete. Another bonus!
Also, I realize that we are The American Plains---'MEN' Society. Does that mean that we are a 'men only' group or do we include any woman who wants what we want from the sport. Personally, I believe that we should include anyone regardless of sex to join as long as they are willing to strive for the levels of authenticity that the rest of us seek. In fact, our time period was the era when non-native women began arriving in the West in numbers. This would also allow family involvement, again keeping authenticity levels in mind.
I am sure many of you feel the same way but if not let's discuss the pro's and con's of these issues. My only concern is that we remain dedicated to the concept of HISTORIC ACCURACY. We all want to have fun but we should not sacrifice authenticity ito do so. I don't want to sound like a Thread-counting Nazi. I just believe that it is easier (and cheaper in the long run ) to do the research and do things right the first time. Too often I have seen the "it's close enough" and "if they had it they would have used it" mind set ruin a good thing. I don't want TAPS to fall into it.
I don't want to offend anyone or seem 'elitist'. The farthest thing from my mind. I just figure if we are going to do this, we might as well do it right. Thanks fer listening.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
I never understood men/ woman Shooting classes. The ladies are not at a physical disadvantage shooting.. Dave
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Jed,
I am not sure what you are getting at. In the first place, that post was a long time ago when this group was forming. Secondly, I didn't say anything regarding "men/women" shooting classes. I was actually commenting on how historically correct it is for TAPS to include women. Lastly, TAPS doesn't have shooting classes. At least not yet. I would like to think that when we do reach that point, men and women would shoot side by side. Perhaps I misunderstood your post.
"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL
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Jed:
Welcome to The American Plainsmen Society. I look forward to your input on the board.
I agree with you and Bill both -- women don't need a separate class. They need to toe the line with everyone else, and the best man, woman, or youngster wins the beans. I'm putting together a postal match that I should have added to the forum this week that will be open to all members.
Will either of you be at the fall encampemnt this October? There are going to be some good matches and great times.
Caleb
EDITED: My mistake, the encampment and shoot will be September 20-23.
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Thanks Bill,
I've been doing this for over 20 years. Here's a close up of the Bag and guns.
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Fellers,
This sounds like what I've been lookin for! With SASS you really couldn't shoot BP---took to long to make up cartridges.
With shootin muzzleloaders, theres no problem! Have 2 cap n ball Remingtons, and a Mississippi rifle. Would like to get a good plains rifle instead.
Where is this get together gointa be? Sounds like fun!!
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Quickdraw:
The 2012 Encampment and Shoot is going to be held in Eastern Kansas this year, the latter part of September. Check out the thread at the top of the Plainsmen page for more details. Hope to see you there.
Caleb
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Hi,
Because I do so much reenacting, I am ready for anything from about 1810-1900...
1810- 1850s: Pedersoli Scout and Lyman Plains Pistol ... both percussion
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/LymanPlainsPistol.jpg)
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/PedersoliScout.gif)
1851- mid 1870s: Pedersoli Scout/ASM 51 Colt/'58 Pietta Remington
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/PedersoliScout.gif[/IMG
[img width=750 height=562]http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Mynewtome1858Remmington.jpg)
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/RightSide51Colt.jpg)
Mid 1870s -1900: Pair of Schofields/1887 Winchester Lever Shotgun/'73 Winchester
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/SchofieldsandPocketWatch-1.jpg)
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/CapCoyoteModel87.jpg)
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Codymatic1873Winchester1.jpg)
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2 Uberti 2nd. Dragoons and a 1842 69 cal rifled musket. Tryin to get everything together.
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Sounds good, Rafe. I look forward to seeing your outfit someday.
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Looks like I might be getting a Colt 2nd Generation '51 Navy soon! If and when I do, I will post pictures of said revolver. It's a Robert E. Lee commemorative from 1971 in pretty good condition.
Regards,
Jake
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Bill, I share your interests here. Although I am all about getting it down to the stitch, that's my thing and I'm not forcing it on others who are pursuing authenticity without my level of OCD. My preference would be an person,or someone aspiring to have an impression that could be responsibly presented before a classroom as a good representation of typically "how it was back then".
I am all for members of both sexes participating and I also share your dedication to historic accuracy. I've met quite a few women in this hobby (both in the US and Europe) who do an accurate impression of an American frontier-woman. These girls have true grit and are great shooters. The best part is that they do a historically accurate impression (no farbed-out Sharon Stone "Gunfighter" gear but more of a kick-ass version of Laura Ingles as the women ancestors of my family were.) I wish they were in this club to show others how it is done. They take their research seriously and are not tolerant of the way others cheapen the significance of American femininity on the frontier plains.
In regards to shotguns, I'm open to it because I use a single-barreled fowler on the open desert and have had a lot of success nabbing doves, quails and other small game. I get reasonable accuracy at 80 yards with a patched .61 ball. I'm liking the enthusiasm here and look forward to feedback from all interested in doing this.
-Dave
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So, I wanted to post this in the approved / disapproved thread; but that seems to be locked. Question for all concerned- Colt 1851 Navy brass-framed revolvers in .44 prohibited, which is fine since they never existed. Now Pietta is making steel-framed 1851Navys in .44 that to me look almost identical to .36 Navys.
I would like to buy a pair as much for the novelty as anything else, but what do all concerned think about using them at a encampment / shoot?
Except for the size of the holes in the paper; I don't think anyone would know the difference...
Oh, and if anyone has an 1841 Mississippi rifle for sale let me know!
Thanks all, Pothook out.
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Hi, Pothook:
We're trying to keep the American Plainsmen Society as historically accurate as possible, without be so restrictive that only a hardcore re-enactor would join. If it didn't exist, it isn't acceptable at a Plainsmen shoot or encampment.
We also place a lot of emphasis on "common useage" -- in firearms, clothing, and equipment. As an example, and although not directly related to the .44 Navy question, I was looking at some powder flasks from the Middle-East at a gun show today. Really interesting items, and no doubt from our time frame, but I doubt if any ever made it onto the American frontier. And even is they did, they wouldn't have been common.
Caleb
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OK, point taken- i'll get some .36 Navys and call it good.
Hey! Check it out I figured how to put a picture on there. Let's see if I can git more...
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And the rest. Let's see here... This is my latest acquisition, a Colt 2nd gen 1862 Pocket Police, NIB all papers and access. No Italian proofs anywhere.
Looks good, will shoot but needs the timing adjusted. Have only found 3 active cap & ball pistol gunsmiths in this country of 310 million people. Wow, dying breed is an understatement! 20-years out of print paperback books on the subject are going for over a hundred dollars on Amazon.
I think i'll pick them up, learn how to do it and then have a corner of the market when the Guvmint bans everything except muzzleloaders and atlatls. Enough complaining; here 's the rest of the pics:
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And the last one. For historical study, all this is supposed to be exactly as made in 1862.
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That looks sweet. I've always liked the feel of a pocket revolver. I think you'll be money ahead doing your own work, too.
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It does feel good, slightly muzzle heavy but long loading lever has good leverage. Got to get the Packin' Iron book to see if they had shoulder holsters in 1850's.
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I've been spoiled by the 2nd gen Colt's revolvers. The workmanship and handling is noticeably superior to the regular Italian made guns. I love that 1862 Police you have there Pothook. I need to get me one of those.
-Dave
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It does feel good, slightly muzzle heavy but long loading lever has good leverage. Got to get the Packin' Iron book to see if they had shoulder holsters in 1850's.
There is a "Gamblers Vest" in "Packing Iron"on pg 154. It is leather and linen and was made for a pair of under hammer percussion "boot pistols", a loading rod, a small pouch (powder measure?) and a small dagger. Thought to date to about 1835-45.
In over 40 years researching holsters that's about the only style I've seen for that period - the only other was a similar setup but based on a pair of suspenders.
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I love that vest. I have a spare vest I have thought about taking apart with that in mind. Problem is I need a coat first. I really like those boot pistols as well.