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CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Ace Lungger on December 03, 2008, 10:12:51 am

Title: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Ace Lungger on December 03, 2008, 10:12:51 am
hi Guys,
Old dummy here, asking another dumb question. I know that the Creedmoore shooting started in the late 1800's, I don't know when the Schuetzen shooting started? I assume that Creedmoore is B.P.C.R. ? but I don't have a clue as what is Schuetzen shooting? it can't all be black Powder, because I see Schuetzen rifles in 22LR. I love guns and allways have, and never owned one I didn't shoot! so if I had a lot of money, I would like to have them all!!! :o Or least One of every Style!
 Maybe this isn't the place to post this? If it is in the wrong place, please move or delete!

Just a wondering

Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on December 03, 2008, 11:59:37 am
There are others that can be more precise, but here's my intro;

Schuetzen, as you can tell by the name, had its origins in Germany.  It was the successor to various target games going back to the crossbow, and maybe even farther.  It was brought to America by the great number of German immigrants.  These were also the folks that developed the Kentucky (Pennsylvania?) rifle.  About the time that cartridge rifles came into use the tradition of the Schuetzenfest, or "shooting festival", became popular.

As it was locally based, and in the East, ranges were short, finally standardized at "FORTY RODS".  A rod is 5 1/2 yards, therefore 40 rods = 220yards.  For Americans who are not familiar with the metric system, this as close as spit to 200 metres.  200 m was the normal distance for most European target games at the time.

Schuetzen matches were shot standing, although bench rest side matches were common, and both are shot in the US and Canada today.  As Colorado had a large German population at the turn of the Century (the last one!) it became popular there.  One of the major sponsors was COORS Brewing.  In the current revival of Schuetzen shooting, COORS is still a major sponsor.  That is why Coors is my favorite brand of US beer!

Rifles for Schuetzen evolved as time passed. In Europe muzzles loaders were in at the start.  As cartridges became commom, calibres gradually dropped from .40+, to the .38's and finally settled to about .32.  One of the calibres is still in use in CAS today.  Ballard evolved the .38-50, with an "everlasting" case.  There's another lecture there, but I'll pass. The .38-50 became the Ballard .38-55 using the more modern case drawing methods, but was essentially the same bullet and load.  Necking the .38-55 to .32 led to the .32-40.  Both became WINCHESTER proprietary cartridges when Ballard was bought out and these rounds totally dominated the field.

The rifles evolved as well, for shooting standing.  Hooked butt plates, greater drop with exaggerated cheek pieces, and hand rests attached under the fore-end.  Loaded methods changed from traditional muzzle loading to a combination of loading the bullet from the muzzle with special attachments and the charged case from the breach, and finally loading the bullet from the breach with a lever gadget and then the charged case.  This last method is still used today, and gives very precise results. This style of shooting made the transition to smokeless powders and telescopic sights.  In the modern reincarnation, smokeless and great big scopes are the rule. The .22 Long Rifle round was developed for Schuetzen competitors for winter practice

Schutzen style shooting lasted until the Kaiser's war in 1914 caused it to be dropped almost overnight.  When the boys came home in 1918, a more "American" shooting tradition took its place. 

CREEDMORE is the name of a range where some great long distance shooting occurred.  Shooting at great distances started with the evolution of the elongated bullet, rather than a round ball.  Experience with rifle systems like the Minie encouraged experimentation in just how far one could shoot accurately.  That was combined with the "Volunteer Movement" of the last half of the 19th century, which encouraged military style shooting sports and firearms development.  One of the high points of experimentation was the Whitworth system.  Greater manufacturing precision, and an elongated bullet that was swaged hexagonally to fit the special hexagonally rifled bore.  Whitworth's rifles were used by snipers in the Civil War to great effect.

Long range shooting also evolved with experience and improved technology.  Muzzle loading was superceded by cartridge developements.  In that great match between the US and Irish, one of the factors was the use by the Americans of specially made Sharps and Remington rifles, while the Irish used muzzleloaders of very sophisticated design.  The result was a close-run thing.  If an Irish shooter hadn't cross-fired at the wrong target, their team would have won.

Shooting style for long ranges was done either prone or supine. Butt plates were flat, and slings were not used.

The revival of this style of shooting came out of Sillhouette shooting, with a great big push by Tom Selleck in QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER.

Both styles of shooting coexisted , but with slightly different origins.  Both benefitted from the rush of firearms developement of the 19th century, and both are still with us today!

Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Paladin UK on December 03, 2008, 01:47:12 pm
Fer Sir Charles.........

WOW!!! Pard

Now thats what I`d call an answer `n` a half 
:o  ;D

Paladin  (Whats kinda impressed  ;) ) UK

Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Ace Lungger on December 03, 2008, 01:59:47 pm
Once again, Sir Charles you are the man of the hour!! Thank you for the way you explained it to me! I totaly understand!
Thanks again

Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Leo Tanner on December 03, 2008, 02:14:01 pm
Both sound like a lot of fun.  I started with rifles, and outdoors.  Long range accurcy was what we always were going for.  Got into pistols and shooting with other people and was surprised how close the targes seemed.  It's still fun, but I'll never lose my drive to see how well I can hit with open sights in a standing position at 200+  Some days I just wish I had a golf cart to check and reset targets ;D

     Thanks for the explanation Sir Charles, I'll now keep an ear to the ground for these types of competions.


Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on December 03, 2008, 04:01:56 pm
One of the historical effects of Schutzen shooting in America came at the beginning of the Civil War in Missouri.  The state government was pro-slavery, and was about to declare for the Confederacy.  The militia had been mobilized and preparations for war had begun.

Then;  The Federal garrison, I believe stationed in Illinois, marched on the Legislature, and was joined by FIVE battalions of German immigrants from the Schutzen clubs.  The result was a stalemate and the State was forced to declare neutrality, and the militia disbanded.

This didn't end the "debate" as Missouri had its own civil war.  THE OUTLAW JOSEY SWALES may be fiction, but it represents the reality of the time.  Still today rural Missouri families are still identified by there alliegance in that war. 

Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Dr. Bob on December 04, 2008, 01:18:52 am
Today, there are Creedmoore style matches at the US National Matches at Camp Perry, OH.  The Wimbledon Cup is shot at 1,000 yards with any sights [that means telescopic, between 10X and 20X].  The Leach Cup is shot at 1,000 yards with Iron sights.  The last time I shot the Wimbledon Cup match [1960's] the aiming circle was 36 inches and the V ring [period X ring] was 20 inches.  I shot a 100 with 13 V.s and was "Creedmoored" by having a non V later in my string.  I was shooting a custom 308 Norma Mag. built by my father with a 10X Unertle Scope.  These matches are shot from the prone position with a sling.

Missouri is one of the few states that actually had the Civil War within the state.  The war started here in western Missouri in the 1850's with the "Boarder Wars" which were sometimes called "Bleeding Kansas."  There was bleeding on both sides of the border and atrocities by both sides.  My GGGrandfather was a stonemason in St. Louis and hired someone to go in his place in the draft.  Using this action of a family member, I do NOT participate in ACW reenacting.  The area along the Missouri River was Confederate leaning and St. Louis and the southern counties were Federal leaning.  For many around here, [Jackson County - Kansas City & Independence, the ACW is not over, much less forgotten!]

Sir Charles is righ on with his description of the sports!!  Thanks!!

Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Leo Tanner on December 04, 2008, 01:54:42 am
Doc Bob, I lived in Jackson County fer a while.  Midtown ta be exact off of Linwood.  Yes I was a strange sight on that side of town but got great rent on a huge victorian house an no one ever bothered me.
     You could drive a few moments east on the KCMO side and see a statue of Lee.  Turn around and drive another few moments over the border into KCK an see a statue of Grant.  What is now called Loose Park was the sight of a fierce battle.  Lot of memorials there too even though it has been left to a dog park.  The area is filled with history as I'm sure you know.



Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: Ranch 13 on December 04, 2008, 09:54:35 am
There's a number of BPCR Creedmore matches around the country. Last fall the World Creedmore was held in Lodi Wisconsin.
 Every year at Raton NM, the NRA BPCR creedmore shoots are held along with the Sillouette shoots. This year they'll be starting the 13th of July. Check out the NRA's web for more info.
 The Ben Avery Range in Phoenix holds the Amercian Creedmore Cup bpcr matches in April.
 Rivers Bend range in north Georgia holds a match every fall.
 Kenny Wasserburger also holds a Creedmore style match every year, only instead of paper targets the match is shot on traditional steel targets.
 For more info on Schuetzen matches you might try Googling up Wyoming Schuetzen Union.
 They were holding the National matches at Raton along with the other bpcr matches, but I believe this year that match will be held in Cody, WY.

Title: Re: What is the diff. between creedmoore shooting and Schuetzen type shooting
Post by: john boy on December 06, 2008, 01:32:19 am

On arriving at Creed's Farm and observing the open, desolate field, with coarse scanty grass and brambles he declared it a veritable moor, Creed's Moor. Hence by a happy inspiration and coincidence "Creedmoor" became the name of the new range ... hence the name of the shooting sport also

Where ever there was a immigrant settlement of Swiss or German population, Schuetzen Verein's were formed.  At it's hay day (turn of the century), the Schuetzen Park in Jersey City, NJ would have over 2000 people in attendance to watch and participate in the matches.  There are still many vereins in north Jersey and several in the boroughs of New York City.  Their matches now, because of lack of ranges, are pretty much reduced to shooting 22 caliber rifles

We have 'gallery' matches every Sunday from January to March at a range in South Jersey.  Same as a Schuetzen match: 40 shots - offhand at 25yds using a 25 ring target.  I use a downloaded 38-55 and a 25-20 'custom' rifle that I made from a H&R 28ga shotgun ...

You may wonder, that is a Pope Palm Rest and I haven't gotten around to it yet, but have a Stevens 44 1/2 Schuetzen butt plate that I intend to put on the 25-20