Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => BROW => Topic started by: MONGO-AZ on January 11, 2007, 01:24:14 PM
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Well, I took my IAB Sharps 45-70 out over the weekend for a test shoot. Using 300gr lead bullets over 37 gr. of 5744, I was ringing the steel at both 100 and 300 yrds. After I load up some 405 gr bullets, I’ll try to improve my groups on paper. Yes, I know what your thinking – it’s not a Shiloh – and I agree – no it’s not, but for my purposes of shooting paper at 100 yrds and steel at 300, it plenty works just fine – and my wife and daughters get the money that I didn’t spend on the Shiloh – and everyone’s happy. :)
Quick question – I’ve been shooting with flat blade sights for years – but using semi buckhorn sights is something I’m still trying to get used to. Does anyone know of a good website that shows a good sight picture for buckhorn sights?
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"Mongo only pawn in game of life."
Howdy!
You and I should get together and form a club called "The Cheapo Big-Bore Single Rifle" Club. I have one of those Cheapo Taylor's Sharps, so you and I are at the bottom of the Big-Bore food chain. Sometimes I can actually feel the sneer ::) from them who think that to have accurate fun you have to have a Shiloh, a C.Sharps or a Pedersoli ! Granted, my rifle doesn't have the quality of the above named guns, but it shoots better than me. :P Like most guns, but ESPECIALLY with rifles that will be used to shoot distances greater than 100 yds., you must find the bullet-powder-primer-case combination that shoots best from each individual rifle. When I got mine I bought the 3 boxes of factory Rem. ammo that the dealer had so I could: A) shoot it immediately and B) be able to have cases to reload, as I planned to shoot it using Black Powder. All 60 rounds went into a 6" circle at 100 meters - which isn't bad ... for me. Some were benched very crudely using my range bag as a rest and 20-25 were offhand. I then got some quality Meister 405 gr bullets and I entered into a steep, sometimes frustrating (but fun) learning session .. the biggest lesson of which is now my 11th commandment; "Thou shalt NOT use hard-cast projectiles, even if they're lubed with SPG, and Black Powder in the same load!!!!!
If your Buckhorn is the full type, some sight the gun in so the tip of the front blade is centered in the (nearly full) circle of the "horns" as if it were a peep sight. I don't, however, think this is a good thing on a gun fired over 100 yds - if THAT far. What I would recommend is to put the tip of the front sight so it is right in the little notch of the rear sight - as you would on a flat blade. Then you can decide whether you want to have it at the six-o'clock position or point-of-aim. I believe that a lot of target shooters use the 6-o'clock method, but I prefer the point-of-aim style. I'm still learning myself - I've done a fair amount of long-range shooting, but not until recently with a gun using the big bullets and BP with a trajectory more like that of an artillery round! ;)
Take care and "Keep yer powder dry!"
SHB
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Hey, remember the late Jeff Cooper said something to the effect that a good shooter with lesser equipment will do better than a poor shooter with the best equipment. I don't think that there are many on this board who will look down at you and any over nasty snobbishness will be deleted by the moderator with out warning unless they have pictures of a room full of trophies they have won at long range (over 500 yards) ;)
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No asperagus from me! I've only got a Wesson&Harrington ::) The owner of my favorite shop( now retired and closed) did extremely well with a Taylor's, to the point of not being able to keep a gun longer than one season because people would bug the heck out of him to sell it to them at the end of the season. As long as everythings in order, with the right load bullet combo, any of them will shoot well with practice...........Buck 8) ;)
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I tried the cheep route. Didn't work.
I got an original Remington Rolling Block for FREE. Now, that's cheep. Took it to a good gunsmith and had it rebuilt. The barrel and stock were absolute junk. He was able to "save" the action. $1600 later, I had a fine 45-70. Nope, cheep didn't work for me at all. I tried, but I kept on finding fancier wood, german silver end caps and butt plates and the like. When it was done, it was a real piece to look on. Shoots great. Then, I went and spent a bunch of silver on new Soule and globe sights. I'll bet my "free" gun ended up costing me around $2000 by the time I got it to the fireing line.
Then, I got a new press, new dies, new brass, a couple of bullet molds, some bullet boxes and now, I need a good spotting scope. There goes another $800. . .
Next time I go cheep, I'm goin' to this wire first. I'm thinkn' I'll save a bunch.
DD-DLoS
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Dick,
Tha sounds like the old joke:
"I don't need no new ax...best one I ever got was free. I've replaced the handle three times and the head twice and it still cuts great!"
I too have an IAB sharps and it still shoots better than I can...If i get better and deeper into it, I can always move up.
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Steel Horse..
“Mongo like IAB.”
Thanks – and let me know when you start that Cheapo club. Glad to know someone else doesn’t mind being at the “bottom end” of the Sharps scale, according to some shooters – ah well.
It’s funny – CAS reminds me of when I used to train Arabian Show Horses. Invariably, we always had a few riders that were determined to win 1st place – and they had DEEP, DEEP pockets – so they had the most expensive equipment, high-dollar blooded gelding or mare, fanciest dress, etc – yet they could’nt manage to sit a horse unless you sewd Velcro to their backside. CAS is something of the same I think – you can spend 6-8k$ on them fancy guns, action jobs, short-stroke kits, cylinder polishes – etc etc – but if you don’t get out to the range and practice practice practice – you’ll never get there. A poor shooter with top end equipment will never shoot like a top shooter with good equipment. I’m no means a top shooter – even a medium one – but I usually hit what I aim at. So, I’ll keep my IAB and think – and have a lot of fun playing with loads and ranges over the years to improve myself.
I’m reminded of the Clint Eastwood movie “Heartbreak Ridge” where the Marines are on the 200m line – one complains there must be something wrong with his rifle – and ol’ Clint picks it up and pops three rounds in the 10x ring.
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Steel Horse..
“Mongo like IAB.”
I’m reminded of the Clint Eastwood movie “Heartbreak Ridge” where the Marines are on the 200m line – one complains there must be something wrong with his rifle – and ol’ Clint picks it up and pops three rounds in the 10x ring.
I actually saw that happen during our pre-qual week at the old MCRD Camp Matthews Range. Only thing was we were at the 500 yard line where you shoot prone. One of my fellow recruits complained about his rifle. The coach grabbed his M-14 and snapped off a round off hand. When the marked the target it was a pin wheel in the X-ring. ;D
Will Ketchum
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In 1990 they added 300 yard Benchrest to the states games, some smart aleck to a 99 Savage with a 1X3.5 scope out to see how he could place against 20 some bolt guns in the light-weight class. Nothing elses had less than 9 power on the top end. Still have that bronze medal, never finshed less than in the top 1/4th the next several years I shot. ;D Made a couple guys with guns with Hart barrels upset.
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Mongo said:
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“Mongo like IAB.”
Thanks – and let me know when you start that Cheapo club. Glad to know someone else doesn’t mind being at the “bottom end” of the Sharps scale, according to some shooters – ah well.
It’s funny – CAS reminds me of when I used to train Arabian Show Horses. Invariably, we always had a few riders that were determined to win 1st place – and they had DEEP, DEEP pockets – so they had the most expensive equipment, high-dollar blooded gelding or mare, fanciest dress, etc – yet they could’nt manage to sit a horse unless you sewd Velcro to their backside. CAS is something of the same I think – you can spend 6-8k$ on them fancy guns, action jobs, short-stroke kits, cylinder polishes – etc etc – but if you don’t get out to the range and practice practice practice – you’ll never get there. A poor shooter with top end equipment will never shoot like a top shooter with good equipment. I’m no means a top shooter – even a medium one – but I usually hit what I aim at. So, I’ll keep my IAB and think – and have a lot of fun playing with loads and ranges over the years to improve myself.
I’m reminded of the Clint Eastwood movie “Heartbreak Ridge” where the Marines are on the 200m line – one complains there must be something wrong with his rifle – and ol’ Clint picks it up and pops three rounds in the 10x ring. end quote
Yep! And I. Will and Del, I LOVE instances like that. Without trying to brag, when I ran the qualification ranges for our tankers and they had to qualify with the 1911A1s, this happened to me a LOT. Everybody KNOWS that you can't hit the broad side of a barn with an issued 45 ACP bullet launcher - right? Yeah, right. Fully 99% of the mechanical malfunctions were magazine related. That fix is no problem. I always carried a footlocker full of parts, mostly spare mags. In the entire time I ran the small arms ranges (part of my Master Gunner duties) I only ran into ONE instance that was truly the gun's inaccuracy problem when I shot the pistol (or rifle) after being told (usually in a whining tone-of-voice) "This piece-of-$hi .. crap won't hit the target (@ 25 yds), Sgt. Bailey!" The ONE instance turned out to be, when I inspected the pistol, was a ding on the muzzle where the piece looked like it had been dropped and landed right on the muzzle. Again - it was about a 1 minute fix.
Adios!
(SHB)
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Besides that is is fun to beat folks who have more expesive and maybe, mabe not better equipment. It shows who the real shooters are. I remember one time someone I knew had a brand new 270, scope big enough to see the rings of Saturn and a couple boxes of factory ammo. When he got done "sighting" it in at 100 yards I tokk my old Nylon 66 shot a couple of rounds to the side of the target to see the dirt and get the range, then put the rest in a tigher group than his new wonder weapon with the iron sights. ;D
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My first one was an IAB from Taylors. It had Lee Shaver Soule sight and I got it $450 including dies and 100 pcs of brass. I won a long range event at a regional match with it hitting 8 out 10 at 675 yards. Target looked like this . Out shot several high dollar rifles. I also got a good buy on an IAB cavalry sharps carbine. It would ring a 15" steel plate at 100 and 200 yards like nobodys business. $400. I now shoot a H&R trapdoor carbine. It also smacks the steel around at 100 (never miss) and 200 yards, and the 3 years I shot it in a State match side event it put every round on the 400 yard target. This gun had never been fired and I have $275 tied up in it.
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Well, I'll be danged!.....I have one also, and I love it! It's one of those older ones with the rounded forend. It shoots better than I can see. so that's good enough for me.
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Steel Horse Bailey,
Let me know when you decide to start "The Cheapo Big-Bore Single Rifle Club." I'd join. I have a Taylor's 1874 Sharps. I haven't shot it much unfortunately. Time basically. But I have started to get it dialed in. I think it is time to join the Colorado Rifle Club. It has a rifle range that goes out to 1000 yards and so I could work up some long range loads for that Sharps. Like DD said, I need to get a spotting scope.
Ransom Gaer
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"Mongo only pawn in game of life."
Howdy!
You and I should get together and form a club called "The Cheapo Big-Bore Single Rifle" Club. I have one of those Cheapo Taylor's Sharps, so you and I are at the bottom of the Big-Bore food chain. SHB
You accepting applications. I picked up a .45-70 Armi Sport Infantry Rifle from Taylor's a few years ago and am in the process of getting it ready to shoot so I can iron out the bugs. It won't shoot worth a hoot, but Delmonico suggested that I try shooting it with out the forestock and see where it hits.
Might need to bed the forestock to get some consistancy. I'll find out this summer.
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Howdy again!
Sounds like the Cheapo club already has members! I doubt I'll ever "officially" start such an UN-official club, but y'all sound like a great bunch of pards to have as friends!
Adios!
SHB
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This all reminds me of when my wife's step-dad had a very high ticket .22 short Scheutzen that had belonged to his son, who had set out to be an Olympic shooter before he lost interest. He wanted me to try to sell it, so I brought it down here to California and trolled it around Prado Tiro and some other places...never could sell it.
I got to playing around with it, more of a shooting system than a rifle (three points each front and rear to attach a sling, adjustable pistol grip, four different front hand holds, a butt that adjusted more directions than a Recarro car seat, three rear sights and two front sights, 32 front sight inserts, and two complete trigger mechanisms), and decided I had to try it out.
I bought a brick of expensive target ammo and set the gun up so everything was just right. I couldn't possibly miss.
I was doing quite respectably when some old guy and his grandson showed up and unlimbered an old Stevens #44 Ideal and the kid proceeded to shoot circles around me, with off the shelf .22 lr ammo. I gave him a box of my super-duper deluxe target shorts and he really settled in to embarrassing me.
Here's a thirteen year old kid with Grandpa's 85+ year old rifle using stock sights, shooting circles around my half ton mechanical marvel.
Just proves it ain't the bow and arrow, it's the injun.
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I was out at the range the weekend before last with my "cheapo" Sharps trying to use up some loads I had done using Pyrodex RS so I can start working up some loads using real BP. Based on the results I believe my "cheapo" Sharps has some potential. It was shooting decent groups and I was using an ammunition box as a benchrest, so it wasn't the most stable. It'll be interesting to see what this thing can do.
Ransom Gaer
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Thanks to Mongo, and all of you guys, I just ordered an IAB Sharps. My friends that swear by Shiloh and Pedersoli probably will not shoot with me no more. OH WELL!
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I e-mailed IAB for information on their rifles expecting no reply. To my surprize, I recieved a prompt response from Mr. Mauro Pedretti in Italy. Mr. Pedretti informed me about the processes involved in the manufacture of his product, and after this, invited me to purchase one of his rifles, shoot it, and give him feed-back. He told me, he was confident I would be pleased with the quality of his Sharps. According to Mr. Pedretti, the barrels are broach rifled, lapped and polished, the finish is up to par or better than other Italian makers, and the parts are heat treated. Considering his reply to show class and profesionalism, I purchased one from Tri Star. IMO, fit and finish is up to par with Pedersoli. Rifling looks very well done, and has a twist of 1:18. Action feels very sturdy. Shot many boxes of ammo through it without any problems, and proved quite accurate at 100 yds. Let off after setting the trigger was very light. So far, I am very pleased, and I look forward to work up some BP loads for it.
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C'mon let's go to sign down member of this particular CLUB...I'm signing down!
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We need a cute name, any ideas, we have member #1 and member #2 spoke for already, come up with a name we all like and you can be #3. ;D
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CHEAPO BBSR Inc.
sound's good?
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Naw, needs to spell out somthing like the RATS or STORM or BOSS and include the rollers and trapdoors. ;)
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As ever you are right CHIEF !
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I also received a prompt & friendly reply from Mr. P when I e-mailed a question regarding their Sharps I already owned. He knew I wasn't going to be buying another but still promptly answered my question in a most friendly manner. I've shot that IAB quite a bit and it has never given me a bit of trouble and if my old eyes can see it I can usually hit it. Sign me up for the Discount Buffalo Gun Club.
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I'd like to petition to add Pedersoli to the cheap Buffalo category so I can join the club. My 45-70 roller cost less than many Taylors and IAC's (under $1,000). And Pedersoli's are subject to as much derision and sneers by the Shiloh/C Sharps/Axtell crowd as any other inexpensive buff. rifle. (I should get an honorable mention anyway, 'cause my first single shot was an H&R 38-55 that cost $340 ;) ).
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My .38-55 was an original Hi-Wall, but still "cheap". I've had to have it re-bored from a sewer pipe .32-40 to its present .376, gain twist. Also had to get a new butt. It is still under USD1,000, but just barely!
My Swedish rollers are all under $1,000 but I haven't done any improvements to 'em, and don't intend to.
May I join up?
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Hey - the real deal aint allowed in this club, Sir Charles - no matter WHAT ya paid fer 'em! ;D All you git is a slap on the back and a hearty "Good show" from us who have the Italian wannabes! ;)
JD, yer Pedersoli may have been a bargain - you got a GOOD deal, but them snooty types will actually - when FORCED TO - admit that sometimes Pedersoli makes a decent gun; even if THEY'D never buy one. You won't hear 'em do THAT about my Taylors, the IABs or the Pedrettis! :D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well, I guess I'll have to be an associate member or somethin'. :-\
I'm too ignorant to be a snob, anyway. When I see someone shootin' really well, I don't know enough to ridicule them for shootin' an inexpensive rifle. :D
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Well Jeff, seenin' how none of these fellas ever seem like snobs, I say we take them. ;) After all every group needs a black sheep or two. ;D
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BaaaBaaa
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Del & SHB; I resemble those remarks!
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Yeppir! Sir Charles, yer my kind of guy!
Well, I guess I'll have to be an associate member or somethin'. :-\
I'm too ignorant to be a snob, anyway. When I see someone shootin' really well, I don't know enough to ridicule them for shootin' an inexpensive rifle. :D
JD, I LIKE it when I see someone shoot well with any gun! 'Specially one that the "experts" look down their nose at. Kinda like a feller who I heard 'bout with an old Savage (lever 99, I think) did once. ;)
Shucks, if any of them Shiloh owners wanna come here an' have fun it's OK - jus' as long as they aint snobs! I thimk them Shilohs, C. Sharps, Axtells, etc. are works of art! They just aint the ONLY way ta shoot good 'n have fun!
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Hey Jeff,
I'll bet my 2 Pedersoli's cost fewer REAL dollars than your Italians did. I paid for them in Cabela's bucks, now that's cheap ;D ;) And how's that for reverse snobism? ::) :)
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Thanks fer the vote of confidence, Del! :) I hope I always respect another man's lawful means of enjoyment. Especially if he's using it with skill.
You're so right, Jeff. You know, I'd have one of them big dollar guns if I could afford it. I appreciate fine craftmanship and design, and I bet they're a real pleasure to shoot. But I'm not gonna enjoy my rifle any less just because I didn't pay multiple thousands and wait for 18 months to have it custom made.
Off topic note: tomorrow is my first ever SASS long range competition, and I'm a bit anxious. Today I went to load some perfect bullets for the shoot and I kept making dumb mistakes like seating the bullets too far into the case, etc. The competition is timed and my rolling block routine is slow, so I don't expect to do real well, but I really, really hope I hit the targets!
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Hey, it just dawned on me, Sir Charles has rollers that ain't real ones from Remington or Lone Stars so we can let him in just for that. ;D
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His family wears slick lids too. That's got to count for something. He's got to get in just on style points if he looks like Gramps.
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Hey Jeff,
I'll bet my 2 Pedersoli's cost fewer REAL dollars than your Italians did. I paid for them in Cabela's bucks, now that's cheap ;D ;) And how's that for reverse snobism? ::) :)
Pitspitr, THAT'S whut I like! Thriftiness and countin' pennies! Easy to tell you've spent a lot of time in Uncle Sugar's Traveling Road Show!
"Step Right Up!! Fight our enemies and we'll even pay ya for it ... 'course it'll be less than minimum wage ... " ;) ;)
Cabela's Bucks? Sounds like coupons... and ya know - TRUE snobs wouldn't use a coupon! ;D ;D ;D
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what the cheapo club is dying, no I don't think so. Must have been hunting season, and everybody took to the woods, with those cheap rifles. Just came in from shooting another 20 rounds from my IAB. ;D
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what the cheapo club is dying, no I don't think so. Must have been hunting season, and everybody took to the woods, with those cheap rifles. Just came in from shooting another 20 rounds from my IAB. ;D
It was probably happy to git sum spring air!
Naw the Cheapo Club weren't dead ... just takin' a nap. ;)
Winter mighta had sumpthin' ta do with it. I'm 'bout ready to break out MY Cheapo and do a little "gettin' re-acquainted" with it. I need some BP, 'tho. If I kin find it, I'm gonna try some of that Schuetzen that seems to be so well liked. I got some good 535 gr. Postells from Montana Bullets and I think (hope) it'll be a good combination. I THINK (always a dangerous thing for me ::) ) that the good folks at Deer Creek Powder House have it, and if so - it's about 1/2 hour from me. I still have some Goex Cartridge if they don't have any.
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Yup nice to get back home. Been gone most of the winter working outages. I have my own farm with a range set up on it. It is nothing for the wife or I to come home and find one of my friends using the range. They always stop at the house and let the kids know. You would think that owning a place that I can walk to a 200 yard range, in less than a minute I would get more shooting in. Well I got to do some reloading tomarrow [today], so I can get practiced up for this season.
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You would think that owning a place that I can walk to a 200 yard range, in less than a minute I would get more shooting in.
It never seems to work that way. I have a couple of primative ranges on my place. One is setup for steel up to 200 yds and I basically step out of my front door and I'm at it. The other I can get over 1000 yds. I never seem to get as much shooting as I'd like. :-\ :'(
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exactly, I feel the pain :'(
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What is the tang screw spacing on the IAB Sharps. I see that different companies use different spacing according to the MVA web site.
http://www.montanavintagearms.com/mva_sight_bases.html
Will Ketchum
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My IAB is 2 1/8" on the tang screws. The sights on mine are factory, drilled and tapped at 1 1/2" For the tang sight.
Hope this helps you.
BSJ
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Hey guys, I got an email from Sharps and they said that they had a 22month wait. God, I cant wait that long. I want a sharps now. However I dont have the 1500 bucks either. How much do these IABs or whatever cost and where do I find one. Could you guys post some pictures of you IABs or Armisports other "Cheap Sharps"... I want to see some Sharps porn... come on guys.
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On gunbroker.com there are some for 750 to 800 dollars. Also some armi san marco ones
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I bought an Armi Sport 1874 Sharps from Taylors last October with a 30” barrel in .45-70. I've bought several guns from Taylors and they seem to carry a pretty extensive inventory. My FFL charged me $965.00. I did strip off the stock finish and put a hand oiled finish on it. So far I’ve been happy with it.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/jvsaffran/Sharps/sharpspb1.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/jvsaffran/Sharps/sharpspb2.jpg
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I bought an Armi Sport 1874 Sharps from Taylors last October with a 30” barrel in .45-70. I've bought several guns from Taylors and they seem to carry a pretty extensive inventory. My FFL charged me $965.00. I did strip off the stock finish and put a hand oiled finish on it. So far I’ve been happy with it.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/jvsaffran/Sharps/sharpspb1.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/jvsaffran/Sharps/sharpspb2.jpg
I sure like mine, JM!
Looks like the difference betwixt yours 'n mine is mine is 32" and mine has the double set trigger. Like mine, yours looks to have plain, but very nice walnut. I didn't have to strip mine, I just put about 5 coats of Lin. oil and after that set for a month or so, I added 4 or 5 coats of tung oil. It gave it a nice deep shine, but not real shiny like varnish or polyurethane plastic covering.
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Tombstone Marshall: You stated "Hey guys, I got an email from Sharps and they said that they had a 22month wait."
Try Bill Goodman, I got my last Sharps from him and it was six months, exactly what he told me. He almost always has orders placed ahead of time and can simply put your specifications in. Best news, it does not cost you one penny more than Shiloh. Also he will ship directly if you have an antique caliber (.50-70, .44-70, etc), no FFL needed. I got my .50-70 that way. You can contact him by phone, his somewhat sparse website provides is phone and address - www.goodmanguns.com .
I know I must sound like a broken record, and I have never seen an IAB Sharps, but I do own a Pedersoli - a very nice gun. But I do own two Shilohs and there is a huge difference in appearance and machiine work, can't say about shooting as I am not that good of a shot, I can miss with just about anything. So consider what it is you want, wait if necessary. It will keep you from buying the same gun twice.
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How about this name for the club:
Low-BROW - Low cost Buffalo Rifles of the Old West....No high-brows need apply ;)
Count me in whatever the name!
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Sounds good, Little Al!
Since it's not an o-fish-ul club you can call yerself whatever ya want! ;D I've been called MANY things. ;)
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Little Al, like the name of the club. ;D
BSJ
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Went out this morning and launched a few 405 gr down range. shooting about 340 yard at metal 5 gal bucket. 11 rounds and just scared the bucket, ok it was't scared it just sat there smiling at me. Got to reload more shells up when I get a chance. :)
BSJ
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Buckets are like that, durn 'em!
;)
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I cheated today, 10 rounds our of ar, all hit ;D
BSJ
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I cheated today, 10 rounds our of ar, all hit ;D
BSJ
THAT"LL teach that stoopid bucket! ;D
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Speaking of I.A.B. Sharps, I have a 45-70 and a .54 caliber percussion. I love 'em both.
I have a set of 5 brass cases for the .54 caliber percussion that I am not going to use. They are used in place of paper cartridges. These cases will work for an I.A.B. and a Pedretti & Sons percussion Sharps but they will not work for a Pedersoli or Armi Sharps. You fill 'em up with black powder (only), stick a bullet or ball in it, and then load it in the chamber. They keep the breech cleaner than paper cartridges or just loose powder. These 5 case are new and unfired. You can use them over and over again. They are made of thick brass (much thicker than a centerfire case).
Take a look:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160245514371&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=006
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;D Something you guys might want to look into with those Italian guns if you're having leading issues. Check the chamber they can run a touch long :-\ My taylors, by Armis sport will accept a 45-90 by simply trimming a tenth of an inch from starline 45-90brass :o The stuff will dang near chamber without trimming.
My CSharps won't even come close to chambering the stuff even after trimming the first tenth , and leading has not been an issue with all sorts of alloys.
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I check out the chamber on every firearm I own. Don't plan on any surprises. Any used gun is chamber cast before I fire it if I am not 100% sure about who has owned it before me. :)
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:) Well now that's sort of the rub iisn't it? Brand new rifle just off the production floor, Italian gobermutt proof house marked, and the thing is almost not even the cartridge its stamped for. :o
From what I've been told by a fella that has an exceptional reputation for building match winning bpcrs from scratch, and repairing /andor race readying others, the long chamber isn't all that uncommon on any of the Italian brands. :o
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Well I know my Pedersoli is dead on to specs. If it wasn't it would have went back. Have seen other than Italian guns, not jsut BPCR way off on specs, but I won't bother naming brands, but they'd be ones with real good reps, made right here in this country, some before the magic 1964 date. ;)
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Yup and there's a reason there was more bonadidy gunsmiths (as compared to the gunparts changers we find now days :-\) that had thriving business's prior to that magic day in 64 ;D
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I know of a well known US maker sending out a revolver marked 44 mag, barrel was right, cylinder was 45 Colt, cases split for the guy.
Much more serious that a chamber a bit long I would say, one reason I check everything before I fire it.
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That don't sound like anybody attended the QC management training day? ??? ::)
The long chamber on this Taylors really sort of works out in the end anyway. I was thinking to open it up to either the 90 or maybe 110, so as its dang near a 90 the way it sits , I'll just trim back some 90 cases , and go ahead and use it as a 45-2.3 ;D Mostly it'll just be a hunting and sometimes really long range gun, I have my C Sharps now to do the heavy lifting in competition shooting.
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A friend has an IAB sharps rifle chambered in 45x2.25" Van Choate. The barrel O.D. measurement at the chamber is smaller than at the muzzle. The barrel was threaded and screwed into the receiver backwards. He only shoots BP in it so I guess he'll be ok with it. I gave him some 457132 Postell bullets to try. Haven't heard from him though :-\ .
Kid
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A friend has an IAB sharps rifle chambered in 45x2.25" Van Choate. The barrel O.D. measurement at the chamber is smaller than at the muzzle. The barrel was threaded and screwed into the receiver backwards. He only shoots BP in it so I guess he'll be ok with it. I gave him some 457132 Postell bullets to try. Haven't heard from him though :-\ .
Kid
I have a good friend that had the same thing on Sharps made in Montana. Not only was the outside taper backwards it was ordered with a "gain twist" which means the twist actually got slower the further the bullet traveled down the bore. :o Obviously the gun didn't shoot well. The maker was very embarrassed ;).
Will Ketchum
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Thats why every new gun or custom gun needs checked well. ;D
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Howdy Fella's,
I am now the proud owner of 2 IAB Sharps Rifles, I have my 1874 TriStar that I bought here a few months ago, which I am getting it to dail in, and now the proud owner of a sweet 1866 IAB Imported by EMF. Both are 28' oct barrels. And I am very proud to own them. today, and most likely the rest of my life I am no Quigley Down Under. But I can tell you this, from 32 years of shooting long range varmint hunting and Big Game hunting. If you got a good barrel, and when you squezze the trigger and it goes boom and you follow threw on your shot, you can make any rifle shoot good! I have learned a lot in a short period of time loading black powder. If you want to shoot precise groups, you have to match that rifle to a load it likes! This is true with smokeless, except, there are less variables!!On smokeless you mate a bullet to a powder to a charge, with in 3-4 changes and you got it! NOT true on the Black Powder!!!It is a time cosumeing process! But, if you would of gave me these same 2 rifles, in my peak of shooting, I would bet, I could kit that life size Buffalo at 1000yards 50% of the time if not better than that percent!!
I would also bet you, that you could give me the finest made , tuned, ect., Sharps in the world today, and i would be lucky to hit it 1 out of 10. Back in 1978 I was selling new Cars, Chevy's and Buick, and i allways was #1, butt I was never home untill 10 PM and I would have to take sleeping pill to sleep! I sold several Corvettes, One of the Corvettes I sold was the biggest peice of junk Chevy every made!!
One last true story. In 1985 I bought a brand new Custom Vincenzo Bernarddeelli spa, I had the local Gun Shop order it and had it sent directly to the custom shop! I paid a TON. but it is a tac driver! I had allways been a 1911 man and still am, but the 9mm's were the thing, about 6 months later i got a chance to buy a single stack mag carry 9mm, It was a very old, most likely it was some of the first Hellwans made in Egypt on the Berreta Model 52 tooling and jigs that Berreta sold to Egypt! I think it was put toghter out of left over surplus parts, there were no machine marks ect, it was well made, except it has a 20lbs trigger pull, I torn it all down like I have every 1911, worked everything over to glass, narrowed the slide rails and rehoned and lapped, got it to 2 3/4lbs trigger pull, and it would shoot circles around that custom gun! And I had a grand total of $175.00 in it. It now belongs to my son!
So the moral of the story, is if you have a good barrel, it dooesn't matter what name is on it!!
And in no way was I or intened to brag, all I wanted to do was to tell the truth, facts are facts. I will never own a Factory made Shiloh or C.Sharps, not because I don't like them, but i can take the extra cash and own 4 more cheap reprodution 1800's rifles.
And have a lot of fun!
later Greg
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I won't get started ::) on my 2 Shiloh (1 Berdan Military Rifle & 1 Richmond Carbine) ....both bought new, both had Issues Shiloh would not admit or repair.
on the otherhand , If I ever find another Garrett Sharps (Palmetto Arms) I'm on it ;D
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Howdy Magor2,
Where was these Garrett Sharps (Palmetto Arms) made? I would like to know more?
Thanks ACE
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Im ready to join! Got my first single shot less than a year ago. It was a mixed parts 50-70 trapdoor that was pretty much of a mutt, but solid as the year 1866. Since it was so ugly when I got it, it only cost me $325. and since it was such a mutt, there was no destroying history when I cleaned it up a little. Didn't know what shootin' was till I pulled the trigger on that Big Bore. Brought a friend to the range with me to try it out, and after he saw me put 5 rounds through it he said, "No thanks." Guess he don't like recoil. Anyway, I sold it for more than I paid for it and bought an H&R Officer's Model for $400. Stripped the wood and rubbed it with BLO which looked a heck of a lot better than that shiny plastic coat they had on the stock. Somebody had messed up the blue on the barrel beyond help, so I stripped off the rest of the blue and polished it and left it in the white. I might eventually give it an old time Springfield Armory rust blue, but for now I kind of like it in the white. Everybody that reads about it says it's historically incorrect and not as the originals were finished. Their right, but everybody that sees it says it looks great. I get the same 2 reactions about having put a real nice dyed horse hair sling on it. Not correct says the naysayers; looks real nice and practicle to boot says the cowboys. Some people try to make me feel stupid by saying, "Well, it's your rifle. Guess you can do what you want with it." To them I says, "Thanks for your permission." Now if it was an original Officer's Model, I think I would respect history and leave it original. But since H&R made it in the 1970's knowing I would someday own it, I think the H&R boys would give me their blessing and tell me to enjoy it. And yeah. I drilled into the lockshaft so I was able to seet the set screw deeper to prevent it from rotating and flying open when I shoot it. I may be dumb enough to make changes I like that aren't original, but I aint stupid enough to ignore a potential safty problem. Especially when the fix is so simple to make it safe. You would have thought H&R would have thought about that when they engineered the gun. They could have still saved their money by doing their 2 piece lock, and still made it safe with about another .50 cents worth of machining.
Anyway, with availablity of ammo and components always a concern, it seemed like the 45-70 was going to be easier to feed than the 50-70. Which brings me to the topic at hand. Having a pretty nice trapdoor rifle did nothing to answer my need to have a Sharps. I had always wanted one, and seeing the new True Grit renewed my desire. But unless I win the lottery, around $500. will probably be my upper limit for spending when I get the urge, no, the need, for a new rifle. Anyway, I recently joined a local collectors club which happened to have a small show a couple of weeks ago. And at the show I saw what I needed. It was a Sharps rifle with a heavy 28" octogon barrel and a really nice set of tang sights, in 45-70. It said Armi S. Marco on the barrel, and it really looked pretty nice. Not new, but close. They guy said he wanted $675. for it. I didn't have the money, but I wanted the gun. At home I did inventory of some things I had planned on selling and figured by getting off my butt and selling my unwanted rifles, I could swing it. At the next club meeting I tracked the guy down and he remembered me. We talked about the sharps, and he said $675., or $550. without the tang sight. Since my eventual plan was to put a leatherwood Malcolm scope on it, giving up the tang sight for a $125. discount seemed the way to go. Met him the next day and the rifle is mine. Took off the wood and rubbed it with boiled linseed oil, and to me it looks about 1000 times better. I'm sure the original Sharps rifles weren't finished with that shiny plastic coating the Italians use to make all the wood on their guns look bad. Touched up the screwheads with a little cold blue and it looks downright elegant. I've stripped it down to look at the insides. There are some rough spots, but all of the bearing surfaces are pretty smooth, and the action is as smooth as anything I've handled. The trigger had a slight first stage, than broke pretty clean at I would guess was about 4 or 5 pounds. I've certainly felt lots of triggers a lot worse than that. The metal to metal and wood to metal fit was certainly on par with anything I would expect to find in that price range. Anybody taken a close look at American made guns lately? To the people who are going to compare the fit and finish of this rifle to a hand made Sharps from one of the American companies, I can only say you need to open your eyes and be fair. From what I've seen, dollar for dollar, a lot of the Italian guns give you a lot more value than the American guns comming off the line. For example, although I think the Pietta revolvers arent top of the line as far as fit and finish go, I would certianly say that the Uberti single actions give the genuine Colt a pretty good run for the money. And even the Pietta's are pretty good when you take their price into consideration. So yeah, a Shiloh Sharps for $2500. is nicer than an IAB Sharps for $700. And a Corvette is nicer than a PT Cruiser. But not everybody can afford a Corvette, and my PT Cruiser starts up and gets me where I want to go. It starts when I turn the key, is reasonably comfortably, and best of all, I could afford to own it. Just like I can afford to own an IAB Sharps rifle. And from what I am reading, there are more than a few people who can place lead just as well with the IAB as they can with the Shiloh. So do I own a Shiloh Sharps? No. Do I own a Sharps rifle that I can hold and enjoy? You bet I do. And when I do get to the range, I bet it shoots as well as a Shiloh Sharps would shoot in my hands. Now le me get back to watching True Grit while I hold my long range rifle and pretend to be a Texas Ranger. And see if you can put a price on that.
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IE300, Howdy!
Sounds like you've lined yerself up for a lot of shootin' fun! Every time I read about an H&R Trapdoor, I get all wishful. Back when they were new that was the first Big-Bore rifle I ever wanted. I held one once, but couldn't afford the $125 pricetag.
Keep yer powder dry !
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I know of a well known US maker sending out a revolver marked 44 mag, barrel was right, cylinder was 45 Colt, cases split for the guy.
Much more serious that a chamber a bit long I would say, one reason I check everything before I fire it.
I got one at a gun show one time that must have come from the same maker. The gun shot fine brass really swelled out, but did not crack. Shot to point of aim. Put it in a yeller and black box and sent it back to em. Had the gun back with proper ciylinder (last 3 of serial number on front of cylinder) in 5 days.
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Yeah, I was real happy to get my hands on that H&R Officers Model. I remember back in the 70's when I first saw them in a gun magazine, I thought "Boy. Wish I could afford one of them!" And I was nothin' like a single shot guy back than, but I just thought it really looked like history. I was only 17 years old, but my parents had just moved from New York to Phoeniz Arizona and I was in Gun Heaven! I remember the first time a police officer asked me why I was wearing a handgun, and I told him I was going to show it to a friend. He said "OK Sir. Have a nice day" New York and the Sullivan Act were 2000 miles away and I was a real cowboy for the first time in my life. Felt like home. The gun was a Ruger Single Six Convertable and I was carrying it in a Hunter holster, and they were both Christmas presents from my parents. I had asked for a Colt .22 SA, but my Dad said the Ruger was a better gun. The year before for Christmas I had wanted a Winchester 9422, and my Dad gave me a Marlin model 39M saying it was a better gun. My Dad was right about both guns, but I guess in the long run the Colt would have been a better investment than the Ruger. Anyway, I digress. I wanted the H&R Trapdoor, but couldn't afford it. So my first big bore (by my standards back than) ended up being a SMLE in pretty nice shape after the cosmonline was gone. Got it for $40. and that included 10 rounds of surplus ammo, from Mandalls Shooters Supply in Scottsdale. From up in the hills I could shoot at something a good half mile away, and it sure looked like I was comming pretty close to hitting it. So it wasn't a Trapdoor or a 45-70, but in the hills of Arizona I had my own personal .303 caliber Creedmore Match going as a 17 year old. Long as I didn't run out of ammo or food and water, I was pretty much in heaven. I doubt I'll ever feel so happy again. When I went up to the same hill with my Marlin 39 and a brick of .22's I could be John Wayne all day long. Than I had to go and grow up. Damn! :'(
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Back in the day we used to shoot from the north side of the hills near 51st ave and the 101. Shooting south with a 3006 had we missed the mountain the bullet would have hit empty desert.
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When we first moved out to Phoenix we rented a house on 67th Ave. built by John F. Long who built about 20,000 other houses just like it. You could buy 'em for about $12,000. but ours was right across the street from about a million acres of cabbage. You know what a million acres of cabbage smells like growing in the desert at 110 degrees? Let's just say it aint something you get used to very easy. Anyway, my parents only rented that house for a few months before we moved away from the cabbage and closer into Phoenix. I used to go shooting up in the hills West of Phoenix in an area where they built and tested Catapliiar tractors, some of 'em big as buildings. I'd go up in the hills and look down. If the tractors were West of me, I'd shoot toward the East. I could see for miles, and there was never any danger of my bullets going astray. That was pretty nice out there, but my favorite place to shoot was called Pinnicle Peak which was North of Scottsdale. Beautiful place. Again, up on the hills a full view of the area around you so you always knew you were shooting in a safe direction away from anybody who might happen along. Mostly just other shooters and a few dirt bikes and doon buggys. You would hear 'em from a long way off, and just take a break from your shootin' until they passed and it was empty desert again. The Pinnicle Peak General Store wasn't too far, so you could get whatever drinks or snacks you needed. End of the day you pack up and head back. Stop at Rawhyde Village for dinner and a cold beer, and if you timed it right you would finish dinner in time to go out to the street for the gunfight and maybe see a bad guy get hanged. I'd let sombody cut off my little finger to have one of those days again. I know Rawhyde Village is still there, but I hear they built condos out in Pinnicle Peak. I guess thats what passes as progress to some people. The people who sell the condos anyway. :-\
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There's a heck of a lot more than condos up there now. But Greasewood Flats is still there. Right in Rietta Pass. WM
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Well now I went an' dun sumpthin' never thought I'd do. When I was a kid with my Marlin 39M with the 3x7 Tasco knockin' beer cans in the Arizona desert 100 yards away, I just couldn't believe when I heard some people were puttin' scopes on rifles that cost more than the rifles! I mean, if my $10. Tasco was hittin' cans at 100 yards, why the heck would anybody spend more? I guess I knew that a scope for a centerfire would cost a little more cause' it has to be a little stronger. But the glass costin' more than the gun? Heck, I'd rather buy another gun and make due with a Tasco.
Well, I guess I've grown up. It aint quite cost more than the gun (an IAB Sharps that I got for $550.) , but I just spent about $467. on a Leatherwood Malcolm scope and accessories. Got the 6x 32" scope with a 3" extension tube to fit my 28.5" barrel, fine adjustment set (just the one that upgrades the adjustable mount that the scope comes with, not the real nice $235. precission adjustable mount (thats another day maybe), and a couple of extra tube locking clamps. Buffalo Arms listing says that the scope package comes with one of the clamps standard, but I saved about $40. buying from somebody else, and this sombody else doesn't say in their description if the scope comes with a locking clamp or not. The reason I got 2 was because I had read that sombody found their install was a lot more secure by putting a clamp on both sides of the rear base instead of only on the front side. And I figure if the seller does include a clamp so I have 3, I'll put 2 on the rear base, and maybe 1 on the front base. Or maybe not, we'll see when I start fooling around with the setup.
Now I've read horror stories about these setups, and also read that some people think they are great. I guess I'll see. I know that some people have done the install themselves and had no problems, but a lot of the sellers state strongly that install should be by a gunsmith. Well I aint a gunsmith, but I've done some hobby machine work and I have a decent drill press. I've done some pretty fine drilling and tapping, and my experience has been that when you take your time and measure twice, cut once, you can do OK. In fact, my policy has always been to measure 63 times, and cut once. I figure I'll read as much as I can before I even start, than get the right stuff from Brownell's, and see if I can pull it off. I'm not adverse to paying a gunsmith some money ($50. - $100.?) to do the job, but here on Long Island gun shops are scarce and gunsmiths don't even seem to exist. I suppose if I found one, he would probably have an 18 month waiting list. I have successfully mounted scopes before, but never anything that required drilling and tapping. As long as I had the right rings and mounts it hasn't been a problem.
Now maybe some of you could make some suggestions, either as far as doing it myself or having somebody else do it for me. I sure hope so, because spending that kind of money on a scope setup is hard, but ruining my gun and scope would be a lot harder. Hope to hear from you all, and many thanks in advance!
Yippi Kiyo Kiyay! (Hope I spelled that right!)
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The scope you bought is a good piece of optics, but the mounts that it comes with are pure junk. Well the front mount is ok if it doesn't break, but the rear mount is .....
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There's a heck of a lot more than condos up there now. But Greasewood Flats is still there. Right is n Rietta Pass. WM
Well I don't remember Greaswood Flats, but I remember the Rietta Pass Steakhouse. You go in there and there were thousands of neckties hanging from the ceiling. The deal was that if you went in there wearing a necktie, a pretty Cowgirl would come out and welcome you by cutting off your tie with the biggest pair of shears you ever saw, than your tie would get nailed to the ceiling with the rest of em'. Never went to the Rietta Pass Steakhouse without wearing a necktie, cause who would want to miss all that attention from a pretty Cowgirl with a big pair of shears! It was really fun to watch when sombody came in wearing a tie who didn't know the rules and weren't expecting all that attention. It was kind of a tradition to bring out of towners there for dinner, telling them beforehand that even though the place was kind of informal, they required ment to wear a tie to come in. It was a lot of fun, but I think you were OK if you wore a Bolo tie with a nice turquoise clasp. I miss going there with my parents more than I can say. You never know how great times are until your looking back on 'em. Maybe I'll get to be with my parents again at Rietta Pass after the sun sets. I sure do hope so. ;)
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The scope you bought is a good piece of optics, but the mounts that it comes with are pure junk. Well the front mount is ok if it doesn't break, but the rear mount is .....
Yeah, that seems to be the consensis. Good optics, bad mounts. What do you think about the $235. precission mount they offer? I am kind of resigned to the fact that I may well have to upgrade, but they don't give you any upgrade option when you buy the scope. Anyway, when the time comes, do you think the Leatherwood Malcolm precission rear mount will do justice to the optics, or should I think about looking at a different brand of mount to use with the scope? The people who seem to be happy with the setups, do you think they just lucked out and happened to get a mount that was put together when all the planets were properly alligned? Or do they just not understand the equipment they are using and don't know any better? What exactly am I going to find lacking in this equipment? I am far from an expert, but I understand concepts like not being able to hold position in order to be able to repeat hitting the same point shot after shot. I guess my biggest concern would be if the rear mount was unable to set firmly in position in order to repeat shot placement. I would be happy if I could get the scope to zero and lock its settings so they would maintain position. Being able to adjust settings after initial sighting in wouldn't be that important to me, at least not initially. So you tell me, will I not even be able to set it and forget it, so that if I shoot at 200 yards consistantly I will be able to hit the same point, assuming I do my part? Or will it not even give me that? And like I asked above, will I be able to set up this scope with a mount that you know of and be able to get satisfactory results? Or should I just send the thing back and start over? Somebody somewhere is making these rifles shoot what they are aiming at with these scopes. And while I can accept the fact that it won't be cheap, I have a hard time believing that you have to spend well over $1,000. to make it happen. I'm not looking to win Creedmore, just have some fun shooting my rifle and hitting what I aim at. Is a $100. rimfire rifle with a $20. scope the only way I can do that?
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They usually end up getting a set of MVA mounts to get the scope to working properly.
You could also get a set of the DZ Arms unertl type mounts but you won't have a lot of elevation adjustment. I have a set of those with a 6x18 leatherwood malcolm scope.
You might want to visit with Dan Zimmerman, to see what he might suggest.
Also you can contact Jerry at Powder Inc. and visit with him about your scope, they are a major supplier of those scopes.
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I'm affraid I just cant afford to upgrade tha mounts to the MVA or similar. It's just not even possable with the funds I have available. About the best I can do would be to upgrade to the Leatherwood Malcolm Precision Long Range Mount with Fine Windage & Elevation. The company I purchased from advised me that if I wanted to I could cancel the Fine Elevation Adjustment upgrade I had ordered for the base that comes with the scope, and that they would sell me the Precision Long Range Mount at a pretty substantial discount. Now I realize that anybody can say anything, but for what it's worth here is what Hi-Lux says in their description of this mount;
<I>Designed for the discriminating BPCR shooter who demands the utmost in precision sight adjustment. And when installed on our “Wm Malcolm” scope, the combination will blow all others away when it comes to precision adjustment…precision sighting…and precision shooting. These superbly crafted mounts have been designed to reliably give shooter ¼” MOA windage and elevation adjustments when needed, while totally eliminating unwanted movement due to “slop” or “slap” from recoil. Thanks to the solid “Unertl” type steel base, the precision mount allows the scope to be totally removed from the rifle then replaced without any changes to adjustment</I>
From what I see regarding the Leatherwood Malcolm Scope products line, this is their best scope coupled with their best mount. Within their product line, I don't think they offer anything of higher quality. The only other option I can see within their product line is their Unertle type mount, but I get the impression that this mount is meant to use with their shorter tube scopes.
So here is what it comes down to: either I figure out a way to make this setup work with the upgraded Leatherwood Precision Long Distance Mount, or I wait for the stuff to be delivered and send it back unopened for a refund and live without a scope setup. The shipping to me is free, so I would only be out the cost of return shipping and whatever delay there might be in getting a refund.
I am really hoping to hear from someone who has actually bought and used this scope with this mount. Again, I thank you all in advance for your help and advice.
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Well do what you think you must, but the difference in price between the upgraded Leatherwood mounts and the MVA mounts is not that large .
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Well Ranch 13,
I certainly do appreciate your input. I've read a lot of your posts and no doubt you are a man who has had some experience in this field, and your opinions about the Leatherwood Malcome mounts are pretty consistant with other knowledgable posters on this subject. Since I've already got the stuff on the way, I'll see what I get. I did get the upgraded "Precission" mount at a cost of an additional $175. only because after speaking with Jerry at Powder Inc. he said it was better than the standard mount even with the "Fine" elevation adjustment kit. I have to admit though that Jerry didn't seem to have a lot of enthusiasm in his voice when he said it was better. I did confirm with the company I bought this stuff from that I can return it for a refund if I want. Since the shipping was free, I'd only be out the cost of return shipping and the hassle of having to do that. One thing I also got was the sliding mount set up since I thought allowing the scope to slide on recoil might minimize some of the impact and potential dammage to the dovetails. Since I will be mostly using this setup for shooting at ranges probably not exceeding 500 yards, maybe my requirements won't be so demanding and I will be satisfied with it. I don't plan on adjusting for every couple of shots, but I do want to hit what I aim at. So we will see. I'll give it a try, unless it just looks so bad that I won't even bother installing these mounts. All that being said, I wouldn't be all that surprized if I ended up keeping the scope, returning all the other stuff, and buying the mounts guys like you are recomending. I'll just make sure I keep everything in returnable condition so there is no problem with that.
One thing I am really having a hard time understanding though. The consensis is pretty consistant that the scope itself is really a pretty good piece of equipment, so why has a company with a good reputation like Leatherwood matching up this good scope with substandard mounts? I mean, say what you want about Chinese products, but the fact is that they are capable of manufacturing some pretty good precission machined items. And usually at a very competative price. I mean, I just got a $20. micrometer from them with a rated accuracy of .0001" and I bet if I checked it I would find it lives up to that claim. So the Chinese have the capability as long as the customer demands the quality. My point is that if Leatherwood had one of their QC people go over there with a sample of a mount that was a well made precission piece, the Chinese could produce it. They would have to charge a little more for it, and Leatherwood would have to go to the trouble of sourcing the manufacturers who could deliver. But it could be done. So the question is why isn't Leatherwood going to the trouble of assuring that this otherwise good scope is sold with mounts that will be up to their customers expectations. And just so you know, I have been to both Hong Kong and Taiwan as a buyer of products for a company that I had in the 1980's, and I have experienced this situation first hand. You go over, meet with manufacturers, tour their facilities, show them what you want. If you meet the right manufacturer, you can easily have prototypes of your product available within a week. And as long as they know you aren't just kicking tires, they will deliver. The quality is just a matter of negotiation and price, but they can do it. So really, it's Leatherwood who needs to step up to the plate and demand the products that their customers want. I honestly don't know why they haven't done it yet. Maybe some other American company should go over there and do what Leatherwood won't. If I was in the position to do it at this point of my life, I guarantee you I could get it done. I could have good usable mounts for these scopes over here in quantity within a few months. And this is an ideal product from an importers perspective. Small, light, and inexpensive to ship by air. Have 'em air freighted over here a few hundred at a time. Keep your initial quantities small so you can inspect each and every piece, and make it clear that they will be getting returns of anything not to spec. I would love to do it, and it would be very easily done. OK, I'm done. I'll tell you what happens when I get my Leatherwood stuff. Thanks again!
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Looking forward to your report .
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Looking forward to your report .
I hope it is shorter than his other posts. I get tired before I even get into them ;D ???
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;D
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IE300; I apologize if I came across as a curmudgeon. I hope I can be more constructive. I was tired and had a a headache and I just couldn`t get into reading your posts. I knew you had something interesting to say as Pards were responding, but for the life of me, all I saw was a series of concrete bricks before my eyes.
Please use paragraphs, or even point form, so tired old Pharts like me can pick out what is important.
Please don`t take it personal, as this forum prides itself on being helpful and friendly
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No apology needed. I know I tend to get verbose and use more words than I need to. I will try to stay on point and break my thoughts into paragraphs.
Part of my problem is that I live alone in a part of the country where there aren't a lot of gun people, so I try to make up for my lack of social life here in this forum. Guns have always been my main passion, and my only regular interaction with others who share my interest is my once a month Northeast Arms Collector Association meeting, and my participation in this forum. And for the record, I'm an old fart too, or I'd probably have better things to do with my time.
Anybody got any ideas about my thoughts as to why Leatherwood doesn't put the pressure on to their suppliers to provide mounts worthy of their Malcolm scopes? Hope that was short enough.
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The $12,000 john f long home was some what of a clue to your phart status - ya know kinda old like the rest of us discussing shooting where houses now are.
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IE300, if learn ta type with 2 fingers like me ya probably would shorten it up a little. ::) WM PS no disrespect intended, I gotta go rest my fingers now.
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IE300, as you've seen already, Sir Chas was being a bit facetious, but he means NO disrespect. As to me, write as much or as little as you feel. I have been verbose myself. Once, anyway.
:o
::)
;)
;D
Actually, I'm only verbose when I'm alone or with somebody.
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I do type with 2 fingers and it don't go fast. But I get cought up in my thoughts and can't seem to make myself stop writing until I've said my fill. Probably why I live alone. Fortunately my cat likes it when I talk to him. He's a good listener and agrees with everything I say. I prefer dogs, but I can't have one in my apartment, so I had to settle for rescuing a kitten that somebody dropped off at a dumpster where I was building a medical facility. Anyway, I named my cat "Dog" so I can have a dog even though it's a cat. Next cat I rescue is going to be real big so I can ride him and name him "Horse".
Now look at me. I'm getting long winded and I'm not even talking about guns! Guess I'll put a cork in it until I have something more to contribute. Well, as Walter Brennin once said,"Boney Notches!"
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;D WM
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Well, bones and notches to you, too!
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The adventure begins. Got my Malcom and accessories and after looking at it and getting totally confused by the instructions, I decided that the best way to familiarize myself with the setup was to start as if I had just gotten the basic setup with the standard rear mount that comes with the scope. Being unfamiliar with scopes and mounts in general, this turned out to be a good idea, as it allowed me to become familiar with the different components of the rear mount.
The front mount was a very simple install, and assuming it doesn't break as a result of recoil shouldn't present any difficulties other than maybe fine tuning it to get it in the exact center of the barrel dovetail. I moved on to the rear mount, and as I said, after looking at the instructions I decided to install the basic mount that comes with the scope. When I change it out for the precission mount that I got I will be familiar with the basic setup and will just be doing an upgrade, or so the theory goes.
Got the rear mount installed, minus the extra mounting screws which require drilling and tapping. I wont be shooting until these screws are installed, so this is really kind of a "dry run" to check everything for position. Since I can't locally find the 8-40 bottom tap I need for the secure install, I will be ordering the tap and a Taprite Tap Guide from Brownells. The 8-40 bottoming tap I am going to order is Brownell's "Perfect Cut" 3 flute tap. Regarding the drill for the mounting hole to be tapped, Brownell's has a chart showing the size drill used for a given tap. It shows a #28 Tap Drill Size, and a #16 Clearance Drill Size. In machine shop practice I've always seen just one size drill matched to a specific tap on the drill/tap charts I've used in the past. Maybe if someone can explaine this to me I would know if I should buy both sizes of drill.
Anyway, I have the scope temperarily mounted on the rifle. First thing I noticed is that in order for the hammer to clear the scope, the rear mount has to be set in a very high position. At the front mount the scope is about .60" above the top of the barrel, but above the chamber the scope is 1.30 above the top of the barrel. To lower the rear of the scope would cause the hammer to hit the scope. Looks like the only cure for this problem would be to offset the scope to the left side of the barrel substantially, or the alter the shape of the hammer or replace it with a hammer which had a much lower thumb spur, or spur which was canted off to the side away from the scope. I could just cut and file a notch in the left side of the hammer spur and that would do the trick, but it wouldn't look too good. My preference would be to have the spur lowered and extended toward the rear. I think that would still provide good purchase for thumbing back the hammer, but provide the clearance I need for the scope. I wouldn't mind even notching the side of the hammer spur as long as I could find an unaltered one to keep with the gun so it could be made original again.
I'm thinking that this must be a somewhat common problem, as the scope tube would be in the same position regardless of manufacturer. And from appearances, it looks like most Sharps rifles have similar looking hammers that don't appear to be offset to the right. Any suggestions or similar experiences would be appreciated. Sorry for another long post, but I couldn't get the needed info in a shorter one. Thanks!
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As you might expect, looks like the guys who have been around the block a few times know what they are talking about. I'll spare you the details, but the Leatherwood Malcolm "precission" mount leaves something to be desired as far as I can see so far. I haven't even mounted it, but just playing with it I get a few impressions.
First, as I have sometimes seen with some machine tools that come out of China, the components seem to be fairly well designed, and even fairly well machined but not to the point of being a finished product. Some machining faults that would have not passed inspection if ther were any QC to speak of, and lots of rough surfaces which go well beyond being visually unattractive. No chance of smooth operation between bearing surfaces as the unit comes to you.
Second, the components are obviously asssembled by people who are basically taught that part number one gets screwed to part number two with two part number three screws. The components are put together, probably in correct order, but with no understanding as to how the parts are supposed to interact with each other. I once had a small Chinese lathe which, once I took it apart, cleaned the surfaces, and reassembled it with some care, was actually a pretty good machine tool. But it took a lot of time and effort, and everything had to be recalibrated and tightened down on a regular basis. When I did that, I had the time and actually enjoyed the challange. I basically looked at it as a preassembled kit. And that's how I see this mount, as more or less a preassembled kit. But I don't really waant to spend the time or effort to make it right. And if I did, I'm not so sure that it would stand up to the forces of recoil and be able to maintain it's calibration. In fact, I seriously doubt it. And I think it would be an excercise in frustration to try to get some consistancy out of it.
So on to plan B.
I'm going to send everything back, including the scope, which I like. I am than going to reorder the 18" 6 power scope with the Sharps style side mount and DZ Arms Unertl mounts. At least thats my plan right now. Buffalo Arms has this as a package only without the Sharps side mount. The side mount looked like a good solid mount since it gets bolted to the side of the frame in 2 places, using two of the original threaded bolt holes. How tightly the mount gets installed to the top of the side base I have to look into more carefully. As usual, suggestions are invited and welcomed.
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Skip the side mount, just go with the DZ package from Buffalo arms, order the 6x48 drill and bottoming tap sets from Midway.
If you want to reach the 1000 yd line with that outfit be sure to get the higher blocks for the rear mount.
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Thanks for the advice Ranch 13. I assume you don't think the side mount will give an additional ridgidity in the rear mount as opposed to the top mount screwed into the receiver. I had figured it might be more ridged as well as eliminating the need to drill and tap the receiver, but I'll follow your advice.
The regular mount that came with the long scope uses 8-40 screws according to the instruction sheet where it describes what tap to use. Does the Buffalo Arms set with the DZ Inertl mount come with 6-48 screws, or is this just your personal preference? I was just wondering because with the 8-40 you get a heavier shaft screw, but with the 6-48 you get more threads per inch, but on a thinner shaft. Obviously if the mount comes with 6-48 screws, that will be the way to go. But if it's a matter of choice (I see that Buffalo Arms states that this setup comes without screws) than I might prefer to go with the 8-40 only because I already ordered a tap and drills for that size. But if you feel that the 6-48 is the better choice, I could certainly return and exchange them for 6-48. Let me know what you think. Also, I assume I will need to get screws for the mounting. Can you advise the correct type and size of screw if they are not included with the Buffalo Arms set?
Regarding the higher blocks for the rear mount. If I don't get them, what would be my approximate range limit? And if I do get the higher blocks, am I undermining my ability to engage targets at a closer range?
And one last thing. It seems that my hammer extends in toward the center of the receiver to the extent that it will hit the scope when the scope is set at anything below a height of about 1.5". Unless I were to use a very high front block, the scope would be at an angle set for very long distance. The only I can see to eliminate this is to offset both front and rear mount substantially to the left side of the barrel and receiver in order to clear the hammer. Am I missing something obvious, or does my particlar hammer configuration extend much farther to center than most other sharps? Is there a replacement hammer which would impact the firing pin block in the correct position, but have the hammer spur not extend toward the center? Thanks in advance for your help!
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You don't mount the rear mount on the reciever, it'll be a bout 3 inches ahead of the reciever, and the front mount will be centered 7.2 inches ahead of the rear mount.
You may want to call Dan Zimmerman hisself and discuss the mounting of that 18 inch scope.
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Well, I changed my mind again and decided to take what I got and see what I can do with it. What I have is the 30" scope, the precision mount, the sliding mount, and the extended height front mount. Actually, I should be getting the extended height front mount tomarrow from FedEx. But everything else is here and installed.
I have an IAB/Armi S. Marco 45-70 Sharps 1874 Model with a single trigger and an octagonal 28.75" barrel with a streight grip and shotgun style buttplate, the rear sight of which is just dovetailed in with no screws. This required me to drill and tap 4 holes centered along the top flat which were 8-40 sized to go with the mounting screws included with the precision mount. I used an 8-40 bottom tap with the recomended size drill from Brownells along with their Tap Rite tool which holds the tap at a perfect 90 degree angle to assure the threads are true and tight from the very top of the hole on down. If I never use it again, it will have been well worth the $28. I spent on it.
I installed the mount base with 4 torx head gun screws I got from a local gun shop. The mount only came with 2 of the 4 screws needed, and they were soft cheap screws with slotted heads. Even if they had sent all 4 screws, the gun quality torx screws were a much better choice. They were a good quality hard steel with heads that allowed me to tighten them up for a solid hold.
The mount itself required some work. I had to refit the elevator to the body of the mount, as the elevator shaft was not seating correctly on the bottom due to the elevator thread block not sitting flush against the side rail. After correcting this with a Swiss file I was able to seat the elevator in the proper position which in turn allowed the elevator to adjust smoothly.
There was a problem with hysterisis due to the scope block being too wide causing it to bind, but fortunately the scope block that came as part of the sliding mount fit correctly and solved that problem.
I did add a spring around the scope tube under the sliding bar, and that should give some additional cushion to the recoil that the scope tube will experience when shooting. The spring fits well, but could probably be a little stronger to assure it returns the scope to it's "ready" position. I lubed it with a little lithium grease, and I think under actual recoil it will probably return to position on it's own. If not I will just have to retract it manually, which I would have to have done anyway. My main purpose in adding the spring was, as I said, to help minimize the recoil stress to the scope. If it also happens to return it to battery, so much the better.
When I get the higher front base tomarrow, it shouldn't take me more than 20 minutes or so to change it out with the one that is on the rifle now. Than it will be ready to give it a live fire test, and hopefully sight it in.
Everything actually seems to be working correctly and adjustments seem to be smooth with the ability to lock up well once adjustments are made. In dry test runs everything seems to be as it should. If I can get it zero'd in and make some good groups, I will be a half happy camper. If I can do that and than change settings, than revert back to original settings to demonstrate repeatability, I will be a full happy camper.
Like anything else in life, this is a learning experience. If I can make this setup work like it is supposed to, even if I have to do some more work on it, I will consider it to have been a worthwhile and enjoyable experience.
Haven't learned to keep it short, but I am at least working on breaking up my thoughts into digestable paragraphs. Hope that good enough for now........Happy Weekend!
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Sounds kinda like a self build unertl
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I'll take and post a couple of pictures of the setup. Of course, it ain't pretty if it don't shoot. I'm hoping to do that tomarrow, but it depends on the weather and how much work I have to do before I can maybe get to the range. Boney Notches!
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IAB Sharps Rifle with Leatherwood Malcolm Scope and Precission Adjustable Rear Mount / Extended Height Front Mount. Installed with sliding mount attatchment and added exterior tube spring to retract scope tube back to ready position. Everything works smoothly as it should, including the spring returning scope to position, however the rifle has not been shot with this setup installed. It goes without saying that just because everything works smoothly and correctly in a "dry run" situation, doesn't mean things won't go wrong in live fire when setup is subjected to recoil. Not to mention that it is all for naught if the setup doesn't improve my ability to hit what I aim at.
My gut feeling is that this setup will actually perform well when I get the chance to shoot it. The main thing I wonder about is the ability to go back to previous settings and be able to repeat my performance after changing setting and than reverting to previous settings.
I should tell you that it took a good few hours of handwork and fitting to get this mount to operate smoothly. When I first opened it up, it's operation was anything but smooth. If it ends up working well, I will feel that the work was well worth while, but I will consider this setup to be a "pre assebbled kit" that you should expect to put some time and effort into to get it up and running. I will keep you posted, as I am hoping to be able to fire this rifle next weekend.
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:o
Well I guess everything is relative, particularly when it comes to putting together a "cheapo" Sharps rifle setup. For myself, the most expensive single piece I ever had in my collection over the years, was a CAR 15 that I bought back in the mid 1980's. I no longer have it, but at that time I picked it up from a classified ad in the Phoenix newspaper for $400., but it wasn't a Colt by any means. It was built on a Sendra receiver and cobbled together from a parts kit. It did have a forward assist, and I probably put a couple of thousand rounds through it before I sold it. I guess it was built well because it never missed a beat, never ran off, and the disconector always kept is from shooting more than one round at a time. Anyway, as usual, I digress. I mention this rifle only because up until this Sharps, it was the most expensive single piece I have ever owned, at $400.
Now the "cheapo" Sharps;
Rifle $550.00
Scope, Mounts, etc. $664.99
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Total Package $1,214.99
Considering that when it comes to Sharps rifles, that amount would get me a Pedersoli Sharps with basic sights, I guess this realy is a "cheapo" Sharps Rifle setup. So you guys with the Custom US made Sharps rifles with US made Malcolm style scopes can laugh at me and look down your noses, but I'll tell you one thing. I sure as Hell aint telling my wife about what this "cheapo" setup cost. I know from experience that her reaction would be...."so what do I get out of the deal?" To her it just looks like another old cowboy rifle, and I'm gonna let sleeping dogs lie as long as possible. In my will I make a note of what it cost so she can get a fair price out of it, or give it to her new husband who will probably like it just fine. Bet he doesn't tell her what it's worth either.
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When I buy a new gun my wife is usually with me and gits one herownself. ;) WM
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Tell us how it shoots.
Actually way different from a Unertl Set up. Unertl blocks are a long ways apart and spring goes in front as I recall. Has been years since I shot mine.
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The spring was really just an add on I came up with to work in conjunction with the Leatherwood sliding mount. Since the top rail of the sliding mount runs so close to the scope tube there is very little space between them to accomodate the spring, so I was limited to a spring that was produced from fairly thin wire. I would have prefered a spring that was a little heavier and would provide more resistance to recoil, but the only way I could have done that would have been to grind the underside of the top rail of the sliding mount for additional clearance for a thicker spring. I felt this might weaken the sliding mount, so the tradeoff is a lighter spring. Everything opporates smoothly with no binding, so the spring does return the tube to it's original position which was my primary goal anyway. If the spring also happens to absorb some of the recoil, that will be a bonus.
I had also thought about mounting the spring forward using the front mount as it's anchor piont, but the front mount uses a leaf spring mounted at 6 o'clock to maintain position of the front of the tube, and the addition of a coil spring in that position would have interfered with the leaf springs action, and probably caused binding between the two. I also felt that additional stress to the front mount would best be avoided, since the manufacturers information indicates that the majority of recoil stress is placed on the rear mount. The rear mount is secured with 4 gun quality screws for which the barrel was drilled and tapped, in addition to the dovetail. The front mount is secured by an expanded dovetail only with no screws for additional strength, which is another reason to avoid placing any additional stress on the front mount. I am considering the possability of adding a steel block which would be both screwed into the rear portion of the front mount, than securing that block directly to the barrel using a screw which would extend through the block and into a drilled and tapped blind hole in the barrel. I might even consider mounting blocks to both the front and rear of the front mount so that it would be screwed in at both front and rear as well as dovetailed. It remains a work in progress, but I don't think I will be doing anything further until I give it some live fire testing to see how everything actually holds up in the real world.
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Not to change the subject, but this is actually distantly related to the subject at hand. Very distantly, but related just the same by virtue of the fact that it regards my first attempt to do something with a vintage looking scope.
I had actually bought this scope on GB about a year ago (cost about $80.) because I thought it looked a little like an old style Malcolm with the Unertl style adjusters. I was thinking about mounting it on a Martini Henry I had at that time, but when I got the scope I realized it was probably for a .22 and would come apart the first time I shot it with the 577-.450 Martini round. The only marking was on the mount which had "NEWTON" cast into it, with the scope itself having no markings at all. It's a fixed power I would guess probably about 3x or 4x, and the 2 small rectangular covers on the side are secured with small slotted screws. Loosening the screws allow the covers to slide which is how the piece is focused. It was a little foggy when I got it, but I was able to take it apart and clean it up which improved the clarity a good deal.
I sat on this scope for a year doing nothing with it. Than I got the Leatherwood scope setup for my Sharps, and since I had to get the higher front mount I found myself with an extra front mount which was the right height to use for this project. I had been thinking for a while about trying to use this scope for an Uberti Remington Revolving Carbine which I had converted to .22 rimfire with a Kirst .22 conversion unit, but I couldn't figure out how I wanted to mount it.
I had actually since seen this exact scope in another forum under the heading of "Mystery Scope" by someone who had one and was asking if anyone had ever seen one. Nobody was sure, but the consensis was that it was probably worth about $120. or so, so I was satisfied that if I modified it I wouldn't be defacing a rare and valuable scope. So thats what I did.
First I removed the rear sight from the dovetail of my Uberti carbine and replaced it with the unused front mount from the Malcolm scope, which also had a 3/8ths dovetail. Than I cut the rear portion of the scope mount, drilled a couple of holes in it, and mounted it to the topstrap of the Uberti carbine, where I had drilled and tapped 2 holes to corespond with the holes in my modified scope mount. The setup is nice and solid and streight, and I think it looks pretty good. I have the same carbine also set up with another Kirst conversion unit in .45 ACP, so I have my choice in calibers. Although I don't think the scope setup would stand up to a centerfire rifle cartridge recoil, I think a pistol cartridge in a carbine should be no problem. I've shot this carbine with the .45 ACP unit installed several times, and recoil is pretty minimal, not a whole lot more than with a rimfire.
I haven't sighted it in yet, but I have no reason to think that it wont work well. The only limitation is that the Kirst unit uses a .22 barrel that is only a couple of inches long, so accuracy probably won't be that great. But I will probably be altering the Kirst unit with a full length barrel liner pretty soon, and it will probably be capable of some good accuracy.
(http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12993.0;attach=37739;image)
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Nice lookin' toy, IE300! There seems to be no end to your cleverness. Looks real good on that Carbine!
:D
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Thanks Steel Horse Bailey!
I couldn't resist givin it a try, so I just popped of a few rounds in my living room at a target. I used some of those Super Colibri BB Caps to keep the noise down. In some rifles those things are quieter than a pellet rifle, but I guess between the super short barrel and the cylinder gap, they still popped a little louder than I would have liked. Anyway, I just tried a few shots at about 20 feet, and the scope seems to work pretty good on that little carbine. I think it's gonna be a real nice plinker! Thanks for your kind words!
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I'd love to "try that one on for size" myself! Those little Colibris will dispatch small rodents, I un'nerstand. Did your ears ring at all? If not, that'd sure be a neat way to amuse yourself some rainy afternoon! I would still use plugs or muffs, 'tho.
Now - if you had MY 60 year-old ex-Tanker's ears ...
;)
;D
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In side shootin 'em in that gun I'd probably use muffs if I did it again, but that's just in this gun. I've shoot the Kolibri's in a revolver and they sounded just about the same as they did in that little carbine. But I have also tried these Kolibri's in a Marlin semi auto rifle and in that they were really more quiet than most pellet guns I've shot. In fact, in that Marlin they sounded exactly like what you see in the movies represented as a pistol being fired with a silencer! The sound of the slug hitting the plywood was a lot louder than the actual report of the rifle with the Kolibri. Even though the Marlin was a semi auto, there wasn't close to enough power to cycle the action so it it was basically the same as shooting any locked breech rifle. That being the case I would guess that any rifle with a similar barrel length (about 18") would have about the same report. If you were to shoot 'em in your backyard with a bolt action rifle, people would think you were shooting a quiet pellet rifle.
As far as penetration goes, I was using a piece of scrap high quality plywood with an oak veneer. This is furniture grade stuff and much harder and denser than the plywood used for most projects. In this stuff at about 20 feet the slugs penetrate from .25 to .31 deep, meaning thats the depth from the surface of the wood to where I first hit lead with my caliper probe. In regular plywood I'm sure penetration would be deeper. Might not sound like much, but I would think it would be plenty to take out squirl size animals with a headshot. I sure wouldn't want to get hit with one of them! Specs say 500 fps, but it's a solid 20 grain slug so it's got some inertia to keep it going once it hits the target. Doesn't just go pancake like a regular pellet.
Two things I've read to keep in mind when using these. First is that they are supposedly pretty dirty, so you should probably run a bore snake through your barrel about every 50 rounds. I've also heard that just shooting a couple of rounds of regular .22 ammo will clean out the bore. The second thing probably relates to the first, and that is that some people have reported having slugs fail to go all the way through the barrel. For this reason you probably shouldn't use rifles with real long barrels. If a bullet was lodged in your barrel and you fired another Kolibri, it probably wouldn't be a dangerous situation, but you would probably get a ringed barrel. And if you had a Kolibri bullet lodged in your barrel, and followed it with a standard or high velocity round, that might indeed create a dangerous situation. Either way, you want to pay attention when shooting these out of a gun you haven't tried with them before.
As far as shooting these out of a pistol, they are pretty loud. Nothing like regular .22's, but still loud enough that you would want to use ear protection. Since they require a minimal backstop, they would be a good round to use indoors in a homemade range, but ear protection would be a must. And unlike shooting them in a rifle, people won't think you are shooting a pellet gun!
So my bottom line is that I think these are great for shooting in rifles outside. A lot more fun than a pellet gun, and really a lot like shooting a rifle with a silencer without having to actually get a silencer. I'd love to see what kind of accuracy you could get out of a rifle at say 50 yards or so!
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I'll keep it short (as short as I am capable of). Last night I was all packed up and ready to finally go to the range with my IAB Sharps set up with the Leatherwood Malcolm Long Scope installed with precision mount with sliding mount attaccment. Added to this is a spring surounding the scope tube to return the scope to position so it doesn't have to be manually reset after each shot. I've previously described some of the work done to this scope setup to get it working correctly.
Anyway, all set up and ready to go this morning when I got a call to check an alarm system going off in one of the buildings I manage. Priorities should be that the shooting range is more important, but if I don't have a job I can't buy the things I like, so I had to check the alarm and put off the range for one more day. Today the weather was perfect, but I am hoping the morning will bring me one more good day before winter sets in. Keeping my fingers crossed; packed up and ready to go.
I am bringing my H&R Officer's Model Trapdoor with a higher front sight than came with the gun. It was shooting about 20" high at 50 yards, and it took me about 15 rounds to figure why I wasn't even hitting the paper last time I took it out. Hopefully the higher front sight will lower POI to a usable level at distances of less than a mile! We'll see. I'm only going to spend a few rounds on the H&R this time.
I'm also going to play with my .22 conversion revolving carbine a little. Just want to get the scope fairly well registered at 50 yards and see what kind of groups I can get with it until further improvements like a longer .22 barrel liner. Again, I don't want to spend much time with this one right now.
The project of the day will be my "Cheapo Big-Bore Single Rifle", the IAB Sharps with the Leatherwood Malcolm Scope setup. I will let you all know how it goes. My gut feeling is that it will be either really good or really bad.
Really good would be sighting in the scope, getting 2" groups at 100 yards, moving out to 200 yards and getting 4" groups, than moving back to 100 yards, resetting the mount to the same 100 yard settings I estabinshed the first time, and than getting 2" groups again with the POI the same as the first 100 yard group. Add to this that the mount allows easy smooth adjustments and locks into position after adjustments are made.
Really bad would be anything that could go wrong does go wrong. Can't zero scope, can't produce groups, mount locks up or won't hold settings, firing pin breaks, cases split, barrel splits open, action locks closed, case sticks in chamber, Obama gets reelected. You get the idea. Yeah, I know. He said he would keep it short. Well if everything goes wrong at the range, my next post will probably be pretty short. If everything goes well, well......ever read Moby Dick?
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Call me Ishmael.
Well, 3 Hunnert, I hope the alarm going off was an easy fix rather than a real emergency.
Also - good luck with your new front sight on your O-Mod Trapdoor. As to the Scope Project, you are setting very good goals, IMHO. 200 yds. is certainly less than capable, but personally, I'd be happy with 4" targets at 200 yds. Hell - I'd be pretty happy to HIT my target at 200 yds.! Mostly, 'cause that means I'd actually have someplace with 200 yds. to shoot on! (My goals aren't very high ... )
;)
Hope tomorrow gives you mild weather and an alarm-free morning to shoot your rifles!
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Thanks for the kind words Steel Horse. The alarm was just a system equipment problem, which is what I would have bet on, but I still have to check 'em out when they happen. I put what I think was a bad sensor on bypass when I reset the system, so it shouldn't be a problem. And unless it rains, I'll brave whatever cold weather God wants to throw at me. My range has 50, 100, and 200 yards. It's really not much of a range when it comes to comforts, but the benches are pretty solid though uncovered. I got my poor man's "Field and Stream" brand lead sled. Not as good as the real thing, but at $50. it gives me a steady rest to give it my best shot. Without it I really wouldn't do well at all, but with it I should be able to actually get a pretty good idea as to what my equipment might be able to do. I'll give you the range report tomorrow. Boney Notches! ( I had thought it was Walter Brennon that said that in an old cowboy movie, but now I'm thinkin' it might have been Hoot Gibson in one of the old Three Mesquiteers movies I used to watch with my Dad.)
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;)
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;D
LOOKS LIKE PERFECT WEATHER AGAIN TODAY! OFF TO THE RANGE AND I CAN'T USE BAD WEATHER AS AN EXCUSE FOR POOR PERFORMANCE EITHER WITH MYSELF OR MY RIFLE SETUP. NOW IT'S UP TO ME AND IAB! ::)
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LAST SHOTS AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN WERE WITH A SHARPS RIFLE WITH TELESCOPIC SCOPE SIGHT FIRED BY
First Sergeant Ryan M Co. 7th U.S. Calvary At The Little Big Horn
"Captain French of my company asked me if I could do anything with those Indians, as they were out of range of the carbines. I told the captain that I would try, and as I was the owner of a 15-pound Sharps telescope rifle, caliber .45, which I had made in Bismark before the expedition started out, and which cost me $100 I fired a couple of shots until I got the range of that group of Indians. Then I put in half a dozen shots in rapid succession, and those Indians scampered away from that point of the bluff, and that ended the firing on the part of the Indians in that memorable engagement, and the boys put up quite a cheer.
Shortly thereafter, the Indian village began leaving the Little Big Horn Valley and the encirclement of the troops on the bluffs was over. Ryan and Captain French fired the last shots of the battle:
"When they moved, the captain of my company, Thomas H. French, and I fired into them while they remained in the range of our two guns, and those were the last shots fired in the Battle of the Little Big Horn. That was well known by every man in Reno's position."
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Awesome! I hadn't heard this.
$100 !!!!! That was quite expensive!
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$100. for a rifle back in those days was one heck of a lot of money, and I'm sure it must have been the best that money could buy. A quick check of the internet suggests that $1.00 in 1876 was the equivalent of $32. now. There are so many variables that it is impossible to make a direct correlation between that value of currency at different times in our nations history, but the formula I found gives an overall indicater of monitar comparison between today and 1876. Using that formula would suggest that that Sharps rifle with scope cost the equivalent of $3,200. today, which I find pretty interesting. That amount is really pretty much in line with what one would pay for a similar rifle with scope today! You could certainly pay more or less, but I think this really is a pretty valid comparison of value. A good Sharps rifle with scope cost a lot than, and it cost a lot now.
Of course back in those days a productive hunter could recoup his investment fairly quickly, especially at the height of the buffalo hyde market. Now we have to recoup our investment in terms of satisfaction of ownership and enjoyment in using our rifles, 'cause we sure ain't going to pay for our rifles by selling Buffalo skins! Guess I'll have to settle for holding my cheapo Sharps while I watch Quigley Down Under again.
One other thing a lot of people don't know about the Battle of Little Big Horn is that there were actually 3 Custer brothers who died there. We all know about George Custer, and a lot of people know that his brother Thomas was a Captain who also died in that battle. He carried an Officer's Model Springfield Trapdoor, which must have been quite a prize for the Indian who was quick enough to pick it up! I have one of the H&R Officer's Models and I love it. Shoots pretty good, and from what I understand it's a fairly faithful rendition of the originals. I think of Thomas Custer every time I hold it. Boston Custer is almost never heard about. Most people don't know he even existed, much less know that he also died at the Little Big Horn. He was a civilian who was employed as a forager for the troops in the field. I don't know if he served with his Brother's continually, or if he just happened to be unlucky enough to be serving with them when they had their last engagement. I don't know what kind of rifle he carried, but I think it's safe to assume it was most likely a Springfield Trapdoor. I wonder if he died trying to pry an empty shell out of the chamber?
Still haven't tried my Sharps yet. I was packed up and ready to go to the range when I got a call about a flooded basement in one of my buildings. Seems like somebody up there doesn't want me to try out that Sharps! Maybe next weekend.
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Think Tom Custer was one of a handful of folks to be awarded the medal of honor twice and the only soldier in the civil war to recieve it twice for separate actions.
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You are absolutley right about Thomas winning the Medal of Honor twice. The second time he received it was at Sayler's Creek during a rebel counterattack. He had just jumped his horse over the rebel breastworks, and while reaching for the enemy flag he was shot in the face at point blank range by the color bearer. After Thomas shot the man dead, he yelled to his brother,"Armstrong, the damned rebels have shot me, but I've got my flag!" The bullet went in his cheek and exited his neck. He wanted to keep fighting, but his brother placed him under arrest and sent him to the surgeon. They were some kind of soldiers back in those days.
I recently read a book titled CUSTER AND THE LITTLE BIGHORN by Jim Donovan, which has that and a lot of other very interesting and well researched information. Anybody interested in US Western history from that timeframe would certainly enjoy it. Not only that, but I got this $29.95 hardcover with lots of great illustrations for $9.95 at Barnes & Nobel, and last I looked they still had them on their bargain shelf. One heck of a deal, and I think I'll give it a second read real soon!
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Well I finally got out to the range with my IAB Sharps today. Based on my experience I now am of the opinion that at least in the case of my rifle, IAB stands for Incredible Awsome Buffalo Sharps! I don't doubt that some people may have gotten bad guns made by IAB, and maybe I just lucked out. Maybe it depends on the branding of any particular rifle. Mine's an Armi S. Marco marked rifle, and in fact I didn't even know it was an IAB until I removed the forend and saw the IAB stamp on the underside of the barrel. All I knew until today was that I had finally gotten a Sharps rifle, and that it looked pretty nice. Pretty nice wood, pretty good wood to metal and metqal to metal fit, and overall pretty nice finish. Not the best I've ever seen, but still nicer than a lot of guns I've owned over the years. And after installing the full length Malcolm scope on it, I thought it was a pretty nice looking package. But I didn't get to shoot it until today.
Today I used Ultramax 45-70 ammo I got from Buffalo Arms. First shot I couldn't believe how mild the recoil was; downright pleasent to shoot compared to the other 45-70's I've had, such as my H&R Officer's Model Trapdoor. I guess the weight of that full octagon 28" heavy barrel has a lot to do with it. Since I wanted to get the scope sighted in, I started out at 50 yards today. First shot was about 8" low and 8" to the left. I tweeked the elevation and the second shot was still 8" to the left with the elevation dead on. Next 4 shots I used Kentucky windage by aiming 8" to the right with center elevation and was rewarded with about a 3" group. 2 shots touching each other next to 2 more touching each other, with about an inch between the 2 pairs. Now I'm gettin' happy!
During the break I tweeked the windage to bring everything about 8" to the right, and that did the trick. The rest of my 20 shots were all pretty much where I placed my crosshairs, making 2 and 3 shot gouups around different areas of the target.
Once I had the scope initially sighted in, my point of impact stayed put without shifting. The cheapo Leatherwood precission scope mounts held their settings, at least for this 20 rounds. The scope itself was nice and clear and bright, and seemingly returned to zero even with the sliding mount and my added on spring installed. By the way, my addition of the spring seemed to work like a charm, returning the scope to it's rearward firing position without having to manually return it by hand. I don't know if it helped absorb any recoil, but it definately returned to scope to position automatically, which was my intention when I installed it. I bought the spring for $3.50 at Tru Value, cut it to the proper length, opened it up the slightest amount and installed it around the scope tube under the sliding mount. A little lithium grease, and it's the cheapest add on to the whole set up!
Well, that was all I did with my Sharps today. Next time I'll move out to 100 yards and start to give the scope a little more of a work out. See if I can get some repeatability out of the mounts. Like I said previously, I did have to spend some time cleaning up and adjusting the mounts to get them smoothly operating. And there are definately a few things that I wont be able to correct, just have to learn to live with them. The main thing is that to adjust windage, you basically have to remove the elevator so you can move the scope tube up and out of the way in order to unlock and relock the screw that locks the windage adjustments once that have been made. It is a pain, but I don't see any way to make that lock screw accessable without moving the tube out of the way. The good news is that hopefully I will be able to get the windage dead nut on, lock it in position, and never have to adjust it again. In reality I should really only have to adjust elevation with my distance, and the elevator lock is a knurled knob on the right side of the mount and easily accessable. I could see maybe replacing that lock knob with one a little larger so I could tourque it down with my thumb and forfinger a little easier, but if I decided to do that it would be a piece of cake. Either find a larger know with the same threads, or silver solder a larger wheel to the one already installed.
As I get more range time with this rifle and scope, I'm sure I will find other things that need to be made right, but so far I think that someone with a little skill and patience can take this setup and make it work well.
As for the rifle itself, while some people say that IAB stands for It's Always Broke, on mine it stands for It Ain't Broke. Oh yeah, did I mention that I have about a little under $1,200. into my Sharps Rifle with the Full Length Malcolm Scope? So maybe after all is said and done I could say it's an ISAB, 'cause I got my dream rifle and "I still ain't broke!"
:D
I'LL KEEP YA' POSTED AFTER I DO SOME MORE SHOOTIN' MY SHARPS ;)
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Cool!
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Wondering if most of my problems associated with my Armi Sports are sight and 61 y/o eyes related.
Time will tell when I come off the bucks for some decent Soule sights with an adjusable eyepiece.
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WARNING! AFTER WRITING THIS POST i REALIZE I DID IT AGAIN AND WROTE WAY TOO MUCH. WISH I COULD SAY I WAS SORRY, BUT i AIN'T! I JUST GOTTA LET IT OUT WHEN THE URGE HITS. OK, I'M A LITTLE SORRY. :'(
Not to get things any more confused than they already are, but my IAB Sharps is an Armi S. Marco ( or so marked as such on the top of the barrel) and from reading lots of posts on different forums, I have been given to understand that Armi Sports is a different company altogether. To further confuse things there is also an Armi San Paolo, and all three of the Italian companies are in similar businesses. There seems to be a lot of crossover in these businesses, and many of them are either affiliated directly or indirectly.
Here is the way IAB, Armi San Marco and Armi Sport are described by Blue Book of Modern Black Powder Arms - Online Subscription.
Armi San Marco
Previous manufacturer located in Gardone, Italy, acquired by American Western Arms, Inc. in 2000 and reorganized as American Western Arms, Italia. See American Western Arms Inc. listing. Previously imported by E.M.F., located in Santa Ana, CA, and sold through E.M.F., Traditions, Cabela´s, and other retail gun stores.
All Armi San Marco black powder cap and ball and cartridge conversion models were discontinued in 2000.
In 1993, the Hartford line was introduced by E.M.F. These models have steel frames with German silver plated backstrap and trigger guard, inspector´s cartouche on grip, and trade for approximately $20-$40 higher than standard Armi San Marco versions.
Armi Sport
Current manufacturer established in 1958, and located in Brescia, Italy. Currently imported by Chiappa Firearms, Ltd. located in Dayton, OH. Currently distributed by Cimarron F.A. Co. located in Fredericksburg, TX, Collector's Armoury, Ltd. located in Lorton, VA, Maxsell Corp. located in Coconut Creek, FL, Taylor´s & Co., Inc., located in Winchester, VA, Traditions Inc. located in Old Saybrook, CT, and Valor Corp. located in Sunrise, FL. Previously distributed by I.A.R. Inc. located in San Juan Capistrano, CA, KBI Inc. then located in Harrisburg, PA, and until 2009 by E.M.F. Company Inc., located in Santa Ana, CA.
Armi Sport manufactures top quality reproductions of famous rifles/carbines. Please refer to the distributors' listings for current information on these models, including U.S. pricing and availability. For more information and current pricing on both new and used Armi Sport firearms, please refer to the Blue Book of Gun Values by S.P. Fjestad (available online also).
IAB
Previous manufacturer (Industria Armi Bresciane) of modern firearms, black powder replicas, and historical Sharps rifles located in Gardone, Val Trompia, Brescia, Italy until closing July, 2009. Previously imported by E.M.F., located in Santa Ana, CA, Dixie GunWorks, located in Union City, TN, Kiesler's, located in Jeffersonville, IN, and Tristar Sporting Arms, located in Kansas City, MO.
Please refer to individual importer/distributor listing in this text for model information and pricing.
When all is said and done, my guess is that they amount to one big consortium with each company having certain specialties regarding models produced, qualities offered, etc., and that it is probably difficult to determine who actually makes what. Back in the 1980's I owned a company that imported knives from a number of Italian companies, and I had the pleasure to go in person to a town called Maniago Italy. The whole town is basically dedicated to knife making, with companies like Beltrame and at least a dozen others located there. To do business there you had to work through a representitive who would make sure that not only the customers interests were met, but also make sure all the different companies had a shot at getting a reasonable amount of business. One of the ways this was accomplished was to structure the purchases so that sometimes you would be buying from someone other than the actual manufacturer. Not a manufacturers rep, but another manufacturer who might not be able to produce the actual item being purchased. I never came close to understanding the whole system, but in essence it was in place to assure that all companies had opportunities to make sales, thereby allowing them to stay in business even during times when their particlar product might not be in high demand. It was a very Italian way of doing business, and I would guess that it is somewhat similar to the way the gun businesses run. And probably all manufacturing in Italy is done in a similar way.
I'll tell you one thing. At the end of the day the business people took us out to a local outdoor cafe for a glass of wine. Between the beautiful girl serving the wine and the view of the mountains of Northern Italy, there was something to be said for the Italian way of doing business.
Getting back to your comment, my eyes are only 58 years old. But they aren't getting any better, and I sure do appreciate the view I get through that Malcolm scope. The 3/4" tube doesn't give you a real wide view, but once you get used to it, it sure seems to beat the heck out of trying to shoot with my bare eyes. I hope you get that Soule sight you're thinking about, and that it does the job for you. I know the good ones will set you back as much as a scope, but I also know that a lot of people swear by 'em. One thing is for sure. Both the good Soule sight and the Malcolm scope look awful good on a Sharps rifle. Whatever you choose, keep it close to your Cowboy Heart and it'll bring you a lot of pleasure. After my first 20 rounds in my cheapo Sharps, I'm hooked. I've never had a rifle that looked or felt so good. Cant wait to see what I can do with it when I get out to a couple of hunderd yards!
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IE300; No problems today. I'm in a better mood, and healthier than when we "spoke' earlier.
In fact, this post contains a wealth of information. I commend you for your research.
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Why Thank you Sir Charles!
I never took offense at anything you said. One of my few strong points is having a good sense of humor about myself and my many shortcommings. Since we can't be perfect, we may as well be able to laugh at our own imperfections. And that's all I have to say about that. Pretty short, huh?
Cowboy Up and Boney Notches
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HOWDY PARDNERS! THOUGHT YOU ALL MIGHT LIKE TO GET A LOOK AT THE GUY WHO WRITES THOSE GOD AWFUL LONG POSTS! I WAS NEVER PRETTY AND I'M GETTIN' MORE NOT PRETTY AS I GET OLDER. BUT MY CAT AND DOG'S DON'T CARE AND MY WIFE ONLY HAS TO LOOK AT ME A FEW TIMES A YEAR. I GOTTA LOOK IN THE MIRROR EVERY DAY, BUT I JUST SAY "DON'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THAT OLD GUY IN THE MIRROR. HE DON'T BITE, AND IF HE DID HE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TEETH TO HURT YOU TOO MUCH ANYWAY." HASTA LUIGI AND BONEY NOTCHES!
PS- SIR CHARLES LOOKS A HECK OF A LOT BETTER THAN ME. HE'S GOTTA LITTLE BIT OF A TOM SELLECK THING GOING ON. BEST WATCH OUT THAT THE GIRLS DON'T CROWD YOU TOO MUCH SIR CHARLES! (I'M ASSUMING THAT REALLY IS A PICTURE OF YOU)
I GUESS STEEL HORSE AND ME WILL HAVE TO FIGHT OVER SIR CHARLES LEFT OVERS!
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Yep! That is the real me. I have to admit that it was taken on a analog camera and scanned later. I'm sure there is at least another 10 years on that Ol Mug by now!
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Well don't go takin' it the wrong way, but you were at least a handsome cowboy back 10 years ago. For myself, I don't think anything's finer than a perty girl dressed in western style with a skirt and cowgirl boots to frame her legs. But at my age I have to settle for just lookin' now and then. You know yer gettin' old when your wife just laughs at you when she see's you lookin' at a young girl. But I guess as long as my eyes still work, I'll still look at the girls and the bullseyes. On a good day I even get to reach out and touch the bullseyes every now and then. The girls I have to settle for just lookin' at. Not allowed to shoot my pistol much anymore, just get to play with it a little and then put it back in it's holster. I best change the subject next time before I get myself in trouble. See you on the horizon!
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Lookin' at girls ...
Just 'cause I'm on a diet, doesn't mean I can't read the menu!
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Be nice to have a pretty cowgirl help me reload my 45-70 shells now and than, though. Ya' know.....somebody who could seat my primers and cast my bullets. Just have to settle for holdin' my Cheapo Sharps real close on those cold Winter nights, and do my own reloadin'. Oh well. Maybe next lifetime......
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Got to love it, where else can discussions go from what some consider an inferior pore quality rifle to pic of a gal that appears to have absolutely nothing wrong with her!!!!!
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That's exactly the point. My opinion is now that contrary to what some have said, the IAB Sharps Rifle, at least the one I have, is the firearms equivalent of this young lady in terms of quality. I didn't put this picture up for gratuatous reasons at all, but to make an analogy between the actual fine quality of the rifle in question and the obvious quality of this fine western gal. This was posted strictly for the purpose of enhansing the intellectual aspects of this discussion by means of comparrison. ::)
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This was posted strictly for the purpose of enhansing the intellectual aspects of this discussion by means of comparrison. ::)
Yeah! Right!
Like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5O29Q0BpJ8
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I'm glad your rifle is working for you, but 20 rounds is won't even get the barrel broke in, let alone be a test of the quality of the rifle.
Yes those rifles are fun, yes they can be accurate, but they didn't get the reputation of "it's always broke" for nothing.
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Let's hope his rifle is the exception!
I only studied the photo of the cowgirl for an hour or so. For purely scientific reasons, of course.
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I have a friend that finally ended up having the rifle rebarreled, and then went in and reworked the lock.. It's as good as any rifle now.
Yes I hope 300 has that rifle that is the exception to the rule, it's never good when a rifle goes bad.
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Well Ranch 13,
You are right about 20 rounds not being much, and I will certainly be putting a lot more through it assuming it holds up. On the other hand, some of the horror stories I've read relate instances of rifles failing within the first few shots, and so far mine has passed the initial tryout. Now these Sharps rifles are certainly new to me, but firearms in general are not. My previous experience has been that if I have a bad piece, the problems show up pretty quick. And that isn't just with .22's, but also with centerfires that generate enough stresses and pressures to cause failures fairly quickly.
Like I said, these Sharps rifles are indeed new to me, and they may have design issues that cause problems not usually encountered with other rifles. Obviously, you can't prove a negative and the fact that I haven't experienced a failure in the first 20 rounds only proves that it hasn't happened yet, not that it won't happen in the next 20 rounds. I can only keep a close eye out for potential problems by checking my rifle and fired cases and hope that I got a good one and not one of the "It's Always Broke" ones.
It seems to me that since my examination of the rifle reveals a properly reamed chamber with smooth walls, good mechanical fit of the mating components, and an overall appearance of a rifle that was manufactured with reasonable attention to detail and quality, any potential problems would probably relate to things that can't be seen. Aspects of manufacture relating to the quality of the steels used and their heat treatment are issues that, while it's possible to test some of these qualities, usually are discovered through use. Thats why we pay attention to things like fired cases, changes in tolerances between mating components, etc. If we start to notice such changes we start to keep a closer eye on things, and if these changes are substantial or happen over a short period of time, we stop using the rifle and have it checked by someone who has the skill and equipment to make an assessment and suggest repairs or replacement of components in question.
Reviewing the posts regarding the IAB Sharps rifles, it would certainly seem that while some people have obviously gotten dogs, other shooters have gotten rifles that they are very happy with. And some of the satisfied people are people who have been around the block more than a few times with various Sharps rifles. When I read about things like long chambers and broken firing pins, it seems obvious that quality control at IAB has been problematic in the past. It would be very interesting to cross reference dates of manufacture with problem rifles. Most companies that have found quality control problems and taken the time and efffort to rectify these problems, usually don't want to revisit their problems. They often find that once the problems are corrected, it doesn't cost them any more to do things correctly. My point is that quality control doesn't usually fluxuate up and down that much once ithe ssues are resolved. So I'm going to make the assumtion that there were problems up to a certain point in time, and that for the most part, rifles made after that time will be of better quality. My guess is also that my rifle was maybe manufactured after the issues were resolved.
That being said, if someone can advise me as to how to determine when my IAB Sharps rifle was made, I would be happy to share that info. And if we can make that determination, we should determing when all the problem rifles were made and see if a time line developes. This would be a useful tool for anybody who might consider buying a used IAB Sharps in the future.
I will hopefully be at the range this weekend again, and will let you all know how it goes. I for one, still believe that the dream of the good usable "Cheapo Sharps Rifle" is a definate possibility, in my case, with the IAB which Isn't Always Broke. I'm rarely accused of being an optimist, but in this case I think my optimism will continue untill I have a reason to change it.
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Well, as long as the cat is out of the bag...
As far as a quick Google search indicates, the above-pictured Cowgirl is one of the 'dancing Playmates' seen in the redux version of the Marlon Brando film APOCALYPSE NOW.
She was one of the group landed by Helo at a USO show in-country where Martin Sheen is being transported via a Riverine crew to seek out Brando. She dances in the Cowgirl outfit on the Helo pad til the crowd gets unruly and then gets put back onto the Helo, showing up later at a riverbank camp, totally out of her element.
The name of this young lady is Cynthia Woods, she was the Playmate for February 1973 and the Playmate of the Year for 1974 per the IMDB, a website for movie data seen at:www.imdb.com
Other data searches will probably come up with more info.
Best regards and good viewing!
'Ol Gabe
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I remember Miss Woods ... fondly, I might add ...
;)
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300 where you're most likely going to find trouble is in the lock and the trigger springs will all of a sudden call it quits. The sear can chip a chunk out of the clear blue and that will cause no end of trouble, same with the notches on the tumbler. Stuff seems to work harden or soften, and that's when the breakages begin...And 9 x out of 10 it will be at a real in opportune time.
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Certainly a memorable scene in a memorable movie. The girls strutted their stuff to Creedence Clearwater Revival singing "Susie Q", and aside from Cynthia Woods dressed in cowgirl style, two other girls danced with her. One was dressed as the prettiest squaw I've ever seen, and the other wore an outfit inspired by the U.S. Cavelry. Seems like Miss Woods stole the show though. Must have been that matched pair of Colts she was carrying.
Not to change the subject back to the subject of "Cheapo Sharps", but there is another aspect to the whole IAB issue that makes it all the more confusing. My rifle is marked on top of the barrel as Armi S. Marco - Made In Italy, but under the forarm it is clearly stamped IAB. So was it manufactured by IAB for Armi San Marco, or made by Armi San Marco and marketed by IAB? The whole Italian gun manufacturing issue of quality is really confusing for a number of reasons. A lot of these companies do manufacturing for themselves as well as for other affiliated companies, so a gun's brand often doesn't really indicate who actually produced it. And most of these companies will produce any level of quality requested by the purchaser and charge accordingly. With some companies you have to wonder if they actually manufacture anything at all, or if they just purchase components from different vendors than assemble the components themselves into completed rifles. When that happens, it's an act of faith to accept the vendor's word that any given component will actually be of the quality requested.
With my own rifle, I certainly have to keep my eyes open. I have not only heard both good and bad things about products from Armi San Marco, but have actually owned a couple of their revolvers. If it wasn't for their markings, I'd have bet that they were made by two different companies. One was top quality in the fit and finish department, and the other looked like it had been assembled from a kit by a kid with no attempt to fit the components together. If you held two Ruger Bearcats next to each other, you might pick one over the other, but the difference in fit and finnish would be pretty slight. Not so with the Italian companies. When it comes to cap & ball revolvers, I think Uberti is a lot nicer than Pietta (the Pietta's are a bargain, though), but when it comes to their cartridge revolvers, they seem to be very close in their quality level. I guess that's what makes horse racing, at least in Italian guns.
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Thanks Ranch 13,
That is exactly the kind of specific information that myself and other owners will find truly helpful. Fortunately for myself, I'm for the most part just a paper puncher. When I have a problem at the range I pack up the problem and get out another rifle. But your words are good warning for those of us that might invest in a hunt or travel to a match.
The good news from what you tell me is that often the springs are the problem, and since springs are pretty cheap it would be a good policy to have some extras. The other components you mention could be more money than you would want to have tied up in a part you may or may not ever need. I wonder if it would be worth the effort and expense to have these components re heat treated before you ever encountered a problem? I have no idea what that would cost or who could do a good job for you. I guess for myself, I'll just play at the range and see what happens, but I do think I'll probably try to get replacement springs. Thanks again!
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Well I can tell you it sucks bigtime to have to spend 2 hours filing a sear to get it to work in the lock, after you've waited for two weeks to get it, on the practice day before a match. It also doesn't do your scores anygood when in the middle of a match the trigger spring softens up, and you pull the set trigger then when the sights get dead center of the target you all of a sudden discover for your rifle to fire you have to pull that front trigger clear thru...... :-[ Just doesn't do your confidence much good at all....
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A couple of questions for you Ranch 13,
You are talking about your own personal experience, I assume with an IAB Sharps rifle? What model Sharps is it, and do you know when it might have been made? Again, I'm trying to see if we can determine some sort of time line regarding problem IAB Sharps, or if they are problematic regardless of when they were made. Also, if certain models seem to be more prone to quality issues, although I think that's less likely than finding a timeline of quality problems. For that matter, are there reports of non-Sharps IAB rifles with similar problems? My last question is regarding the replacement sear you got. Were you able to get an actual IAB sear or did you have to get a sear for another manufacturer's Sharps and have to file it to make it fit? And last, did you get your parts from VTI Gun Parts, and if so why did it take 2 weeks to get it. Sorry to ask so many questions, but maybe your experience can help me and some of the other owners out there. I am sorry for the problems you have had, and hope after all you have been through you have ended up with a rifle you are happy with.
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I remember Miss Woods ... fondly, I might add ...
;)
Is I recall we were able to make a quite detailed assesment of the quality of the "goods"
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Well Ranch 13,
That being said, if someone can advise me as to how to determine when my IAB Sharps rifle was made, I would be happy to share that info. And if we can make that determination, we should determing when all the problem rifles were made and see if a time line developes. This would be a useful tool for anybody who might consider buying a used IAB Sharps in the future.
I will hopefully be at the range this weekend again, and will let you all know how it goes. I for one, still believe that the dream of the good usable "Cheapo Sharps Rifle" is a definate possibility, in my case, with the IAB which Isn't Always Broke. I'm rarely accused of being an optimist, but in this case I think my optimism will continue untill I have a reason to change it.
Proof date codes from another forum
http://blackpowdertimes.com/index.php?topic=121.0
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Well I'll be! According to the code, BB, my IAB Sharps was made in 1992, which make's it a heck of a lot older than I would have thought. The guy I got it from said he had shot it, but I didn't get the impression he had it for a real long time. He's pretty much of a trader I know from my collector's club. We have a meeting scheduled next week, so I'll find out how long he owned it for, and if he knows anything else about it. Sure doesn't look like it's had many rounds through it, or seen much use of any kind. In fact it looks almost new; not quite, but almost. About 99.99% blue and case colors and a tiny ding on the stock. In fact, I've seen lots of brand new guns that had more finish wear than this.
Well, now that I know when mine was made. I would love to hear from other people who have had both good and bad IAB's and know when they were made. If everybody who has had a good one with no problems tells me that they were made around the same time, maybe I'm in luck! Mean time I guess I'll have to keep on shootin' and see how long I can go without a breakage.
Boney Notches!
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Two sides to every story. Here are some posts from BPCR.NET:
I e-mailed IAB for information on their rifles expecting no reply. To my surprize, I recieved a prompt response from Mr. Mauro Pedretti in Italy. Mr. Pedretti informed me about the processes involved in the manufacture of his product, and after this, invited me to purchase one of his rifles, shoot it, and give him feed-back. He told me, he was confident I would be pleased with the quality of his Sharps. According to Mr. Pedretti, the barrels are broach rifled, lapped and polished, the finish is up to par or better than other Italian makers, and the parts are heat treated. Considering his reply to show class and profesionalism, I purchased one from Tri Star. IMO, fit and finish is up to par with Pedersoli. Rifling looks very well done, and has a twist of 1:18. Action feels very sturdy. Shot many boxes of ammo through it without any problems, and proved quite accurate at 100 yds. Let off after setting the trigger was very light. So far, I am very pleased, and I look forward to work up some BP loads for it.
I had an IAB 45-70 sharps business rifle until about a year ago, the rifle was quite accurate with smokeless loads out to 200 yards. Never had any problems with it. It had the 29" light round barrel. Sold it to buy a blackpowder shotgun for bird hunting
I have a TriStar (IAB) Sharps in 45-70 that I have about 1000 rounds through and find it quite accurate and well made with better than average fit and finish. I just wish that IAB made a pistol grip/shotgun butt stock for their gun as they would make an excellent entry level gun because the price is right for what you get. Just get a good set of sights.
There were some negative comments too, but no doubt some people have IAB's they are real happy with. Are there other Sharps that have not yet been discussed which should be considered for good quality "Cheapo Sharps" status?
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My taylors (Armi Sports - Chiappa) appears to be pretty well done as far as fit and finish goes. The jury is still out on its abillty to shoot. As indicated above problems may well be related more to my eyes than the rifle. Will probably end up spending more on the sights than I did for the rifle. The rifle is not fancy but does look a whole lot more finished than a Baikal Shotgun or Makarov pistol, both of which look rough but shoot well. My rifle was proofed in 2002 and has the older small firing pin. Conventional wisdom on this site is that the small pins are prone to breakage. Have not had a problem, but have only fired about 100 - 150 rounds. Ordered a couple replacement pins along with an extactor from Taylors just in case (in stock and shipped quikly). Taylors will drill out the firing pin hole to use the new larger firing pin for $10. Will consider getting that done at a convienient time once I install the 3rd firing pin.
Others have claimed there are issues with springs and sears. I have not ordered any of those parts. Not sure I want to attempt to fiit a Sear. I am pretty sure Ranch 13 would tell me how to do it. He is very knowledgeable and quite helpful on this forum.
I finally got around to using a pencil to seat the bullets right at the rifling- not pressed into, then calipering to the base of bullet. I now have COL for each of the bullets I have for both 45/70s. May get in some range time over Christmas holidays. Got a lyman tang sight "mounted". Holes actually too close together but can just get screws in, seems solid. Temp fix till get a decent soule.
At least I can see the front sight. The barrel sights and my eyes really do not work to well. Will knock out the rear sight from barrel to allow me to shoot at 100 and 200.
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I'll hopefully be getting in some range time tomarrow, and hope to put about 40 rounds downrange at 100 and 200 yards. I know my eyes aren't what they once were, and for myself I have always enjoyed some magnification and seeing the crosshairs on a target. I was really amazed at how expensive the soule tang sights could get, but when something is machined by true craftsman it has a value that is impossible to place. There just arent many people left who can do the kind of precision machining it takes to produce these sights. Buffalo Arms has a sight by Lee Shavers which costs a little over $200., and probably represents a good value, but from there they jump up in cost pretty fast. As I said, my personal preference is for glass, but even going the cheap way with that I have about $100. more into my scope setup than what I paid for the rifle.
Tomarrow will give me a better idea as to what my rifle can do, and what I can do with it. Just fooling around last week and sighting in I was able to make some pretty good (for me) groups at 50 yards. I had a 4 shot group about 1.5" with 2 shots and 2 shots touching each other. That was only 50 yards, but I think if I had taken a little more time I could have had a one hole group without too much problem. Now for myself, that's olympic quality shootin', 'cause I've never been all that good. So maybe gettin' old is a double edge sword......your eyes get worse, but your patience gets better. And it certainly seems like patience is one of the key ingredients of becoming a competent marksman.
Well cpt dan, I hope you get some shootin' in before the holidays. Maybe you can pick out a sight you really like from the Buffalo Arms catalog and leave it in a prominent place with the sight circled in red. I know my wife wouldn't take the hint, but maybe things are different in your family.
My wife asked me if I had an electric blanket. I told her that the cat keeps me warm, but I like guns. I won't hold my breath for an addition to my small collection, but maybe I'll get a Lee Pocket Loader so I can save a little money off the cost of factory ammo!
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Thinking sometime around april there will be either an MVA or Kelley on the rifle. Sights have not got close enough to the top of the list to worry about till then.
Thankfully I got the reloading stuff back in 94 for high power. Even with the equipment 300 - 500 grain bullets $ add up pretty quickly. good news is once I get it dialed in for 300 probably only need to shoot 10 rounds a month.
If I ever get seriously into BPCR shooting at paper or steel will probaby invest in one of the guns from montana. Until then think the Armi will do just fine.
Mamma already ordered a pancho from Western Wildlife Wonders to keep me warm on those 2 or 3 match days a year I might need it out here in sunny AZ.
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Eh! Pancho!
Do you mean "poncho", or more appropriate for Arizona; "Serape" ???
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Be it a PonchO or a Sarape, I'd trade my left little finger to spend the rest of my days in Arizona. When I liveed there in the 70's and again for a year in the 80's there were no shortages of great places to shoot. That was where I learned that my Marlin 39M could hit rocks at 500 yards or more! All my happiest shooting was in Arizona and thats where I got my cowboy heart. Tried bull riding up at a place on South Mountain. They had $4. bulls, $5. bulls, and $6. bulls. Started out on a $4. bull named Charlie who was about as rough as a big friendly dog. I swear he liked to be ridden, and he wouldn't buck for love or money. They put everybody on Charlie for there first ride, just to see if they would really get on a bull. I think the most dangerous thing about riding Charlie was that he might lick you're face if you fell off of him. I graduated to $5. and $6. bulls and ended my rodeo career on my 7th ride on a $6. bull named "Dispose All". Didn't know you could break an arm that bad, but after 2 surgeries I had decided that my cowboying would be relegated to shooting and riding horses. I still have the steel plates I carried in my arm for more than 20 years, not to mention my memories of riding real bulls. Not that I would recomend it, but I gotta tell ya', you will never feel anything like you feel when you're sitting on a 1,500 pound bull waiting for that gate to open. Any by the way, I did ride ride em' out on my 6th and 7th ride. Thats actually harder than getting thrown, 'cause when you hear that bell ring you think "Well now what do I do?" and you have to figure it out pretty quick.
And remember....GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, BULLS DO!
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A rodeo hand aint nuthin but a Cowboy with his brains kicked out.
Think bull riders make em look like geniuses
As I understand the terms a Sarape is a full blanket. Poncho more on line with size of a saddle blanket with a hole for the head to go thru Ala Clint in Fist full of dollars.
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Well I gotta admit, the smartest thing I did as a bull rider was to quit bein' a bull rider. I said it was exciting, but I never said it was a smart thing to do.
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RANGE REPORT 1/7/12 LONG ISLAND, NY
Well, this isn't normally the time of year you would want to be at an outdoor shooting range, but thanks to about the strangest Winter weather I have ever seen here, it was indeed a great day to be at the range. Sunny with the slightest breeze and almost 60 degrees this afternoon. The range was crowded with everybody who wanted to get some outdoor shooting in before Winter catches up with us.
Anyway, got to put another 50 rounds in my IAB Sharps with the Leatherman 30" scope. Both the rifle and the scope did just fine with the scope in the middle of my sighting in procedure. First time out I was at 50 yards just to get on paper. Today moving out to 100 yards I found that I still need to tweak it a little more, as my groups were about 4" to the right. Without bothering to adjust the scope I was able to get 4" groups on the bull by using a little Kentucky windage, just holding about 4" to the left. The scope seems to be holoding it's zero, and adjusting for elevation is no problem. The one thing I found with this scope that I think I'll just have to live with is the windage adjustment. You actually have to almost remove the elevation piece to access the lock screw for the windage. And it is a design flaw I don't think I will be able to overcome. The good news is that once I get the windage set right on, I should be able to lock it down and never have to bother with it again. I can still compensate for distance and bullet weight by adjusting the elevation with no problem. And if I have to compensate for actual wind conditions, I'll just have to do it the old fashond way, which is to say Kentucky windage, just like I did today.
As for the rifle, it functioned perfectly. Accurate, smooth, with no failures to fire or eject. No broken springs or firing pins. Look like I got one of the few IAB Sharps rifles that does the job. Of course, it could always break on the next shot. But if anybody wants to place any bets, I'll put up $100. that says I get to 1,000 rounds with a breakage. And no, you don't win if I have a failure to fire every once in a while. But the bet is that if something breaks on the rifle due to normal use, you win. If I hit 1,000 rounds without anything on the rifle breaking, I win. Unless there is someone local I can go shooting with at the Brookhaven Shooting Range, I guess we can't really make a bet. But I promise that if I have a breakage, I will share that info with you all.
So anyway, is this still a thread about the "CHEAPO SHARPS" club, and is anybody still interested?
Bony Notches!
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I enjoy your range reports on the IAB Sharps because I own one also, Mine is a 45-110 and I cant find a flaw on it so far. Although I did lose a lever retaining ball and spring. You really have to watch that as that little ball and spring will take flight if yu trop the carrier in the field to clean. Luckily VTI carries the parts and they are cheap so I bought two of each. I think Ill keep an extra firing pin just in case also.
I am particularly interested in your scope. I am considering a Malcolm scope but i wanted to talk to someone who had gone that route before I committed to buying and mounting one.
I enjoy the tang sight but my eyes are getting to the point that I think the scope would be easier plus I just like the look of the long scope.
I have fired all my rounds but four and I have cleaned my brass now I have to reload my empties and buy some new brass as I only have 20 total right now, Plus I am looking to find a bullet mold and accessories. I have been shooting Pyrodex because I could not find any Goex locally but I have ordered some and as soon as it and the new brass gets here I think I'll spring for the Malcolm.
These maybe cheapo Sharps but they are a lot of fun plus I have a friend who owns three Shilo rifles and my rifles fit and finish I think are better overall plus he tells me that he has broken more than a few firing pins and always leeps a spare.
So I think I'll stick with my el Cheapo for now and just enjoy it.
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Fellas, this starts the New Year right! IE 300, Bravo! You're having fun, and that is the name of the game!
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Well Thanks as usual Steel Horse for the kind words! And Don, I'm real glad to hear about your IAB in 45-110. Did IAB make it in that caliber or did you start with a 45-70 and have it reamed to 45-110? I'll bet those loooong 45-110 cartridges get some attention at the range since they look a little like ICBM's! I would imagine that that additional powder capacity would be a big advantage when your hunting or shooting out at those real long distances. I have often wondered about how much additional recoil you get from those over the common 45-70's, but I guess if you have enough weight in the rifle it wouldn't be too bad. I'd love to hear some more about your rifle and it'specs. Barrel length, weight, double set triggers, ect.
Now I have to admit that I have never even seen a Montana Sharps in person, so I can't judge their quality of fit and finnish compared to mine. The only other Sharps that I have actually held was one of the Pedersoli rifles, and while it was a little nicer than my IAB in that department, it wasn't a whole lot nicer. Wood to metal was a little tighter, and some of the metal was a little finer in the polish department. My barrel has a kind of a frosted bead blast finish as opposed to a fine polish, but while that bothered me a little when I first got it, I now look at it as an advantage in that it probably won't show up minor dings and scratches as much as a finely polished barrel. Apples and oranges. The only other thing as far as metal finish goes is that when the block is up in battery, the sides of the block are finished pretty rough, with a verticle grinding pattern like it was finished on a pretty corse grit of paper like maybe an 80 or 120 grit, than left in the white. Would have looked nicer if they had gone to maybe a 220 grit or so. But after touching it up with some cold blue, it's hardley noticable, and since the sides don't seem to be bearing surfaces during the cycling of the action, it doesn't affect the smoothness of the action. Which by the way, is pretty smooth.
The only other thing I wasn't real happy with as far as the finish goes, was the wood finish that was on it when I got it. I think the Italian's seem to prefer wood to be a little glossier than I like. So I stripped it and rubbed in a couple of coats of linseed oil which gave it a more subdued warm look which I prefer.
Overall, I think these are well finished rifles. I've owned a lot of guns over the years, and although I'm not rich, I've had some nicely finished guns. But I would still have to say that this is nicer than anything else I've owned as far as new guns go. I did once own a Winchester Model 1907 .351 Semi Automatic rifle, and I always thought that if I had owned it when it was new, it probably would have been the most finely finished rifle I would have owned. It wasn't new when I got it, but it was in real nice condition, and you could just tell that it must have been a gem when it first left the factory. But if you go into a gun store and look at what's leaving the factories now, you will have to spend some big bucks to get the quality of fit and finish we have on our IAB's. By the way, I got my IAB Sharps used for $550. in close to new condition.
As far as the scope goes, some of my previous posts have outlined what I did to my mounts to get them much improved over what they were when I received them. The scope is fine as it comes, and it really does look cool! Good clear optics and probably as good as the original Malcolm's were. A lot of people suggest getting the mounts made by one of the American makers, and for serious competition, they may well be right. I'm still getting the hang of this stuff, but I can tell you that I did have to put some time and effort into getting my mounts to work as good as they do. On the other hand, it was a good education and let me get a lot more familiar with the way these mounts work. I basically look at these mounts as a pre-assembled kit. Take them apart, work on them, polish them, file them to get the components to fit together correctly, and maybe you will have something. Only time and use will tell how servicable they will be in the long run. But I wouldn't be supprized if I end up upgrading the mounts eventually. The only negative about the scope is the small size of the opening for your eye. You have to work at holding the correct position to get that sight picture. On the other hand, I have read that that same atribute pretty much eliminates parellex.
Well, as I said, the weather has been very mild for this time of the year in this part of the country. But maybe God will smile on us up here this year and allow us to skip a severe Winter this year. Otherwise, I guess it's time to try my hand at reloading until we get to the Spring. I'll keep my fingers crossed, and if it stays warm, I'll keep you all posted about my progress with my IAB Sharps. Did I mention that I love this rifle?
Bony Notches
PS - Does anybody know how big a deal it is to change from single to double set triggers? I have a single, but I would love to have my trigger break at a couple of ounces like the proverbial glass rod. If I could just swap out one trigger package for another, that would be great!
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Hi Everybody!
Hey Don, did you ever get your Sharps scoped? Like I said, with the scope I am able to get 2'-3" groups at 100 yards with a flyer here and there. And I've never been a very good shot. The scope setup cost me more than my rifle, but it really makes for a nice package. And I'm sure Sgt. John Ryan never regretted spending big money on his scoped Sharps. After all, he claimed that he fired both the first and last shot in the Battle of the Little Big Horn. He couldn't have done that without the scope!
But I was thinkin' about that and I realized that when I was a kid I mostly shot .22's, but when you pay a buck or two for every pull of the trigger, I guess you concentrate a little harder at putting holes where you aim. Seems like when I was a kid with my .22 in the desert, the goal was to see how fast I could make the sand kick up in the general vacinity of where I was aiming. If I happened to bounce a can every once in a while, well, that was fine too. Mainly I just wanted to make the sand splash, but at my age making groups is more satisfying.
Well now I'm entering the next phase of my love affair with my Sharps. I'm gonna' make my own ammo for it. I have 99 empties, and am waiting on another 135 loaded rounds that I just ordered. On Gunbroker I got an auction for some older small name handloads that are packed in 15 round boxes, and I paid less than a buck each for them. I'll pop off a few and if their no good I'll pull them for components. I also got 3 boxes of HSM 45-70 405 gr. RNFP Cowboy Action for $20.20 a box, and I'll do the same with those. Either one at about a buck each seems to be a good bet for reloading if they don't shoot well. I also got 200 #1 Buffalo bullets from Missouri Bullet's which are 405 grain RNFP cast .459 diameter. These bullets get good reviews from users and and end up costing about .25 cents each delivered. I have about 3/4 can of FFG/RS Pyrodex and an almost full pack of Federal Large Rifle primers. So I've got the components to get started.
Tomarrow UPS is delivering my reloading equipment which consists of the LEE BREECH LOCK CHALLENGER PRESS KIT along with 45-70 dies including the extra crimp die and a few other accessories to round out the set. Now the only reloading I've ever done was some .38 Special with the old Lee Loader when I was a kid ( yeah, I popped a few primers in the living room) and than just a few months ago I handloaded some .45-70s with the Pyrodex I have. I used my drill press with a wood dowel to seat my primers and it worked great! I seated the bullets by hand and used some nail polish clear coat to seal and secure the bullets in the cases, and you know what? They went BOOM and hit the paper! I couldn't have used these rounds in a lever gun because the first rounds recoil would probably have pulled the bullets in the other rounds, but in a single shot trapdoor they worked just fine. Anyway, that's the extent of my reloading experience.
My lack of experience may be an advantage because from what I have read, it's usually people who have gotten used to other equipment that have trouble with the Lee stuff. So I bring no pre-conceived notions about how this equipment should be configured or work; my mind is a clean slate when it comes to reloading. And I'll be using a Lee reloading manual which I'm sure is geared toward people using Lee equipment. From what I have read, even though the .45-70 is a long round, it's also a streight sided round with no taper or bottleneck, so as long as I lube mu cases well and go slow, this press should do the job. If I feel anything hanging up, I'll open the press, remove the case, clean and relube, and try again. And in keeping with the topic of this post, the Lee qualifies as the Cheapo reloading system to go along with the Cheapo Sharps rifle. So hopefully I'll do some reloading this weekend and I'll let you know how it goes.
As always, suggestions are welcome. Just don't tell me to throw the Lee equipment in the lake.
BONY NOTCHES!
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IE300; You are coming along Jes Fine!! No I won't suggest you can the LEE stuff, but I might suggest you mail it to me collect ;D ;D
I love my LEE stuff.
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Well that is encouraging Sir Charles!
Looks like we are finding more common ground as time goes on, and to show my appreciation for your encouragement I'm going to make this my shortest post ever!
Boneee Day-oo's!
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Back again for a quick reloading question,
I didn't say it would be my only post, just my shortest. But I will make this one short as I can. The reason I got the crimp die along with my die set is because I have read that if possible you should seat your bullets in the case forward enough to almost engage the rifling in the barrel. My understanding is that you want to avoid having to "jump" any free space between the front end of the chamber and the begining of the rifling. If I understand correctly, that "jump" can cause 2 problems. First is that that free space can allow some hot combustion gasses to migrate around the front of the bullet and possibly cause some throat errosion. Second is that those gasses in conjunction with that free space can allow the bullet to yaw slightly before engaging the rifling, again causing throat erosion but also causing the bullet to deform when it engages the rifling unevenly.
This possibility makes sense to me as I visualize it in my mind's eye, but is it a genuine concern that I should try to avoid by customizing my reload to be a specific length to match my rifle's chamber? Assuming it is, how do I go about determining the optimum loaded length for my loads to match my chamber? Do I need to cast my chamber and get my dimension from the casting, or is there an easier way to measure my chamber? Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide.
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There are several ways. The one I use is to take one of my bullets and slip it into the breach. Poke it with a pencil 'til it just sticks in the throat. Use a cleaning rod with a flat end and slide it in the muzzle until it just contacts the nose of the bullet you just stuck in the throat. Mark the rod with a pencil. Remove to bullet and close the breach. Slide the rod in to touch the breach face and mark the rod again. The difference between the two marks is your OAL
From that you can easily figure seating depth so a powder load can be determined.
P.S; Steel Horse Bailey just described the other common method of determining maximum OAL. Shooting tests will find the ideal OAL for your ammo & rifle.
P.P.S; Capt Dan described the third way, and likely the simplest and quickest.
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IE Howdy!
As I've stated befor, I'm NOT a BPCR reloading expert. The chamber cast seems to me to be the best way to find out a LOT of information. I believe that by seating the bullet so that it is just shy of touching the beginning of the rifling - say, .005" - .010" at the most, you'll minimize the bullet "jump" and it won't "free-bore." I believe that some also advocate just touching the rifling, but I tend to think that might cause an unwanted pressure spike, so when I did my loading COL experiment, I ended up with about .010" from the rifling. With all the other "issues" I've had I don't know if it really made a difference or not. Factory smokeyless rounds shoot fine, just not BP so much. I didn't have any Cerrosafe, so my method was simply slip-fitting a bullet in the neck and letting the rifling push the bullet into the case, then working from there. As others have mentioned about some of the Italian rifles, especially the Armi Sports, my rifle might well accept a 45-90 round because of excess space! I've never found a properly loaded-to-specs 45-90 to try, however - but ... maybe someday! As I recommended to YOU, a chamber cast would tell the tale!
::)
Have fun, pard.
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Put bullet in chamber push against lands gently with pencil measure to base of bullet with caliper
That is A
Measure length of bullet that is B
A+B is overall length of cartridge or C
A-case length is seating depth
C-caselength how far bullet sticks out of vase
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Somewhere along the way u may want a neck sizing die
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Somewhere along the way u may want a neck sizing die
I believe he already has one.
I have and use one. Except for my .223 & 30-06 Garand loads, I neck size ONLY.
(7.92 Mauser for my 2 K98 types and M1888, 30-06 for M1917, 45-70 for my Sharps, and 7.62X54R for my M91/30 & M44)
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May have misse. that I'm working up a smart phone today not full screen
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IE Howdy!
As I've stated befor, I'm NOT a BPCR reloading expert. The chamber cast seems to me to be the best way to find out a LOT of information. I believe that by seating the bullet so that it is just shy of touching the beginning of the rifling - say, .005" - .010" at the most, you'll minimize the bullet "jump" and it won't "free-bore." I believe that some also advocate just touching the rifling, but I tend to think that might cause an unwanted pressure spike, so when I did my loading COL experiment, I ended up with about .010" from the rifling. With all the other "issues" I've had I don't know if it really made a difference or not. Factory smokeyless rounds shoot fine, just not BP so much. I didn't have any Cerrosafe, so my method was simply slip-fitting a bullet in the neck and letting the rifling push the bullet into the case, then working from there. As others have mentioned about some of the Italian rifles, especially the Armi Sports, my rifle might well accept a 45-90 round because of excess space! I've never found a properly loaded-to-specs 45-90 to try, however - but ... maybe someday! As I recommended to YOU, a chamber cast would tell the tale!
::)
Have fun, pard.
Conventional wisdom states Armi Sports have a sloppy chamber and are unduly long. Well I did cast mine and it is 2.125 vs 2.130 factory spec for Pedersoli.
Additionally the Pedersoli uses a 45 degree taper down to something like .460 - .462. The army sports use a much sharper angle that is about 1/2 as long as the Pedersoli spec. Posted dimensions of my Armi Sports Sharps and Navy Arms Pedersoli RB on another thread.
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Well I just opened my digital caliper to .005 to get a visual, and I have to say that it is a pretty small dimension. Admitedly this is new stuff to me but I am surprised to see that the dimensions we are talking about are as fine as they are, and would not have thought that .005 would make much of a difference one way or the other. So how critical are these overall lengths when they vary by .005? And how much variation would I find in factory ammo?
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Hard to tell. Still have not figured out BP, but back in my High power days. Some folks swore their rifles got much tiighter groups on the lands .002, 005, .010 off the lands. My Remington 40x7.62 had a pretty genrouse lead and would shoot about 3/4 min with 190, 175 or 155 grain sierras. Those bullets are about 1/4 inch different in length.
Do know with sierra match hollow points there is not a constant bullet length forming the hollow point can be out by about .010 or so, but the distance to a specific diameter not really close to the hollow point say bore diameter on the Ogive is very precise and repeatable.
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Spent the last week reading about and playing with my Lee Anniversery Reloading set. Got a set of 45-70 dies and the crimp die as well. I had a Harbor Freight rotory tumbler that I actually got to remove rust from small gun parts, so I figured I'd give it a try for my used brass. It doesn't have much capacity and I didn't have any polish media, but I got about 50 shells into it with a container of BB's I had laying around and it actually gave the shells a pretty good cleaning (after washing them with hot water and soap). They weren't really polished, but certainly more than clean enough for reloading.
I had a can of Pyrodex RS (FFG Equivilant) and also got a can of IMR 3031 smokeless, 200 cast lead 405 grain RNFP bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. I also have a box of 50 Hornady 300 grain JHP .45 cal. (.458) bullets, but for my first run I just used the cast lead 405's since the Hornady's were a lot more expensive.
With a total of 95 empties cleaned and primed, I made up 4 batches of 20 rounds each with the IMR powder. I started out with a load of 45.5 grains, than dropped to 36.4 grains, 31.8 grains, and finished up with 27.3 grains. So basically it was starting load, than minus 20%, minus 30%, and minus 40%. I'm assuming that by the time I got to the minus 40% I am approaching squib load status. I wish I had a chronograph to see how these reductions in powder translated to muzzle velocity, but I guess that will be my next equipment purchase. The starting load with 45.5 grains is supposed to give me about 1597 FPS, which while not a buffalo killer is still above Cowboy Action velocity. The most enjoyable factory loaded round I've shot so far was the UltraMax 405 grain, but I have no idea what the velocity of that round was. I might hazard a guess of around 1,100 FPS or so. Maybe one of you know and could share that recipe with me. It was accurate and enjoyable to shoot, and would certainly be along the lines of what I would like to load for my own target shooting.
My last 15 rounds were loaded with the same bullet and 50 grains of the Pyrodex. I arrived at that load just by seeing how much powder I could get in the shell while leaving just enough space to have the bullet give the pyrodex a good crunch. I know that volume for volume Pyrodex is a little more powerful than black powder, but I think the 50 grains would still be substantially below the 70 grains that was supposidly the original 45-70 loading. I've also read that people who have tried haven't been able to get close to 70 grains in that case and still have enough room to seat the bullet. I get the impression that the 45-70 was originally more like a 45-65 or a 45-60. And I have read that you can't load enough black or substitute in a 45-70 shell to even come close to exceeding the safe pressure that a rifle in good condition can take.
So now I will once again invite any comments or suggestions from all of you who know more than me, which means all of you. If it sounds like I have done anything unsafe or potentially dangerous, please let me know. In closing I will say that although I have no experience with other reloading equipment, this Lee stuff sure seems like it is well thought out and engineered. Several simple and very clever devices which seem to work like a charm and be as strong as they need to be, without being overbuilt where they don't need to be. I showed my wife the Safty Primer Feed setup and demonstrated it for her, and the first thing she said was that it reminded he of her first job at Davis Aircraft Company. She, myself, and most other people I grew up with all had their first job at that factory, and those first jobs really were a lot like reloading. That company is no longer in our town, but next time you get on a commercial airliner, look at the bottom of the seat belt buckle. Odds are it will say Davis Aircraft Company.
Anyway, I digress as usual. I'll pray for shooting weather this weekend, try out my first reloads, keep detailed notes, and let you all know how my loads work out. Haven't broken that IAB Sharps rifle yet, but now that I can reload my ammo at 1/4 the price of what I was paying, I'm gonna give it my best. I mean, I can't break it if I don't shoot it, right?
BONY NOTCHES AND BIEN FRIJOLES!
BY THE WAY...I forgot to mention that I set my bullet seating so that the ogive is just touching the lands of the rifling. In fact, if you were to chamber a round and eject it without firing it, you would see the tinyest little dots around the ogive where it contacted the lands. I hope that's a good thing.
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Don't forget pard. "Cowboy Action loads" are talking about pistol caliber loads, NOT 45-70. Personally, I wouldn't load any rounds at "lower than starting" loads! You're asking for trouble. Now, I am talking about 45-70 loads for trapdoors and reproductions (which tend to act like BP loads of yesteryear. NOT the loads for 45-70s to be shot out of Ruger #1 rifles and the like. EVERY load book I own (I have 4 or 5 from Speer, Hornady, Lyman, Lee, Sierra, and numerous loads I've printed from the Hodgdon site) have a different section for 45-70 loads in Trapdoors & repro Sharps, RBs, etc. So make sure you're using the right charts.
The reason I'm emphasizing this is because of what you printed about 40% reduced from starting loads, as you put it. That's pretty dangerous without a chrono and pressure testing, pal! 5 to 10% lower than starting is one thing, 40% is quite another ... and you're talking about 3031, which is a very good powder.
Be safe ... be careful making up your own loads. I'm just a dumb old ex-tanker, but you're playin' with fire, pard! Fill those cases up to where you'll have about 1/16"-1/8" compression with that FFG equivalent Pyrodex or real Gunpowder, and if you need smokeyless loads, use safe, published starting to maximum loads, and you'll still keep yer eyes, and all your fingers.
your mileage may vary ....
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Good advice from a DAT. Who knows Steel horse may have ridden M60A3s or M1s could be a C-DAT
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I agree with Steel Horse Bailey's comment. For some reason I never 'took" to 3031. In necked military calibers that I used it in it required top-end loads to give power with accuracy. It does have its uses but in my life I have only gone through most of one can. Those loads IE300 wants to try might not be dangerous, but the results will likely be dissapointing. I checked the starting load, and IE300 was using the trapdoor table as a guide. :) :)
I do use 4895 for reduced (NOT gallery level - just reduced) loads. I followed the suggestions of the experts in the NRA from the RIFLEMAN. A 60% load of 4895 gave brilliant accuracy at 200 yards in .30-06 and .308. I tried it in a Rem 700 vartmitter in 7 - 08 and voila, 1/2 inch groups right off the bat. That was years ago now. :P
In my '86 Browning SRC I wanted to used smokeless. I used a load of 4895 just two grains less than shown on the Hodgdon tables for starting loads for the trapdoor. Still pretty skookum, but close to BP velocities. Accurate as well. Since then better powders have evolved and now I'd probably try 4198 or Trailboss. I won't, cause now, most of my loads are with BP.
IE300; Its a good idea to start by loading just a few test loads until you know it works. Having to disassemble a bunch of 'em is a pain and wasteful of components. And, ask the questions before starting :D
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Good advice from a DAT. Who knows Steel horse may have ridden M60A3s or M1s could be a C-DAT
Thanks for the clarification, pard. Most don't realize that DAT means Dumb A$$ Tanker, and the C adds "Computerized"
::)
Of course, every former Infantryman knows what a DAT is. We called them "Grunts" (when being polite) and "Track Grease" when not.
;D
I went like this: M60A1, M48A5, M60A3, HIMAG & HSTVL (Experimental Test-Beds), M1, M1A1, then M1-M1A1-M1A2 Master Gunner; (1st class of M1A2 MGs), and finally M1A1 Heavy.
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I am quite sure we could both agree to good naturedly chide the cannon cockers or more politely red legs
Once during an FTX I had the honor of commanding a Tank Heavy team. My Company was cross attached to one of the tank battalions. The Tank Bn Commander further task organized by sending two of my Mech Platoons out to two of the tank companies and gave me a platoon from each one. This was back in the 5 tanks to a platoon days. I was really concerned about my guys (myself included) becoming track grease with all those M60 A3s running around in the FT Polk woods.
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Who ya callin' a REDLEG ???
6 pounder anti-tank gun, 155mm M114 howitzer, 105mm M1 howitzer, 105mm L5 Pack Howitzer, 155mm M109 SP
M577 and M113 CPs, M113 and LAV forward observer vehicles.
Qualified as an "IG" (Instructor in Gunnery - a year long professional mass murder course which covered theory and practice on all aspects of gunnery, from serving a field gun, to Corps level fire support planning , up to Nuclear Target Analysis, and training individuals and units in the same.
Forward Air Controller.
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Dang, if we only got a "Zoomie" involved we would have a Bi-National Combinded Arms Team.
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Indeed!
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Since then better powders have evolved and now I'd probably try 4198 or Trailboss. I won't, cause now, most of my loads are with BP.
Trailboss is fine in .45/70 out to about 100 yards but past that accuracy is poor...very poor, at least with 2 of my rifles.
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Trailboss is fine in .45/70 out to about 100 yards but past that accuracy is poor...very poor, at least with 2 of my rifles.
I havn't tried it, and I know the numbers in the data are not very impressive. I mentioned it as I have seen it written up a lot.
For what IE300 wants, I suggest 4895 or 4198 might be better choices.
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I had good luck with IMR4198 and Meister 405 gr. bullets in my Sharps. I don't remember the load exactly, but it was in the 21 - 25 gr range. It was a very good reduced load. I had good results with it to 200 yds. What I didn't like was the immense empty space because of the small volume of powder. I would load the round, then elevate the barrel to 90 deg. vertical, then carefully lower it to take aim, cock the hammer and shoot. I ended up putting some toilet paper loosely stuffed into the case - it helped keep the powder down at the primer end, at least that was the theory ... I don't know if that actually helped, I couldn't tell by shooting.
Like I've said, I had no luck with BP in MY Sharps, but with smokeyless and hard-cast bullets it does fine.
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Guys, I'm enjoying the heck out of your valient efforts to make big bore black powder ctgs shoot smokeless powder. It reminds me of my DCM Highpower days, now long in the past.
I to have a IAB Sharps, in .50 govt. It's the carbine and and I load exactly what was made to shoot in it. A 450 gr. soft lead bullet, SPG or simular lube, pre compressed 70 grs. of Goex Ctg grade, large rifle (FED) primer, roll crimped. I replaced the front sight with a higher blade and the carbine shoots a consistant 3" group at 100 yds. As good or maybe better than the original I had many years ago. With the new front sight filed to "0" at 100, the round's trajectory follows the sights out to 300 yds. Thats as far as I shoot it,so I really haven't checked it out beyond that range. Like the originals, I get about five to seven shots between bore wipes. This is OK with me, as I accept this as a fact of life with all b/p guns shooting original loads. This carbine has taken several coyotes and a number of jackrabbits over the last few years. No, for being totally "original" in design, it's close enough but not exactly an perfect duplicate to the m-1870 conversion Sharps. It shoots very well for what it reresents and it helped me get somewhat past my IAB fobia.
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Being a cheap Bass turd myself, I often find myself seeing and feeling the sneers of the ultra elitist, what with their fancy and high dollar gear. But, I love the look on their face when I take my $235.00 (used) Winchester Mod 70, and get 1/4 inch groupings at 100 yards. It tickles me to no end.
I am just getting started in buffalo rifles ( not counting my BP rifle) and am in the process of seeing what is out there... and there seems to be a lot. So, other than the IAB (Creedmoor type) being 1/3 the price of a Shiloh, what is supposed to be wrong with it?
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Two Step...I stayed away for IAB's for years. Early on they were very poor copies of sharps actions, it seemed at the time the Italian gun builders made many cost curbing shortcuts to develope a one size fits all action that they could use on all of the Sharps repo lines, percussion or ctg. And the metal was really soft in some cases and brittle elsewhere. The IAB folks just couldn't get heat treating down worth a darn. Some of the early b/p percussion pistols had simular problems and they wern't just limated to IAB. And the trigger pulls were always bad, and correcting them led to other problems. This is where the soft metal issues really bit you. Once those sears were ajusted by releaving extra metal, the hardness, if there ever was any to start with was gone, and the trigger sears wore down to bad or unsafe again quickly. The barrels varied in quality from fair to worthless. That was why the low end makers had a bad rep for many years. I still would not buy any older IAB, and didn't intend to buy the one that I have now except it was the only gun that I could find in .50 Govt. I really wanted to get a Sharps in that cal. and that didn't cost an arm and a leg. It still is not a letter perfect copy of the gun it represents but it's now well made, shoots fine and seems to be holding up to daily use just fine. I had trigger work done and that seems to be holding up well too. I personally believe that cowboy action shooting as a sport forced some of the also ran makers to really compete for market share and clean up their quality and workmanship alot.