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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den  |  The Dark Arts (Moderator: Lucky Irish Tom)  |  Topic: Shot shell loading 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Shot shell loading  (Read 44371 times)
MattNificent
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« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2012, 04:02:34 pm »

just getting in to loading some brass shells with pyrodex rs..i plan to just use a shot dipper and do square loads..does anybody know what the grains of pyro would be on a 7/8oz shot dip? 1oz? 1 1/8oz?

thanks...great site btw!
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joec
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« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2012, 04:57:12 pm »

just getting in to loading some brass shells with pyrodex rs..i plan to just use a shot dipper and do square loads..does anybody know what the grains of pyro would be on a 7/8oz shot dip? 1oz? 1 1/8oz?

thanks...great site btw!

I'm loading using 1 1/8oz of #8 shot using Magtech 2.5" brass shells with large pistol primers and the Lee 2.2 cc dipper with two scoops of the powder. I've used the same for Pyrodex RS but now using some GOEX on the last batch.
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Joe
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« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2012, 05:06:08 pm »

Matt;  I take it that you had read this post in its entirety.

When you are building your load work backwards from your desired shotload.  1  oz. is enough shot for CAS targets, and mv is NOT crucial.  Getting a good pattern is.

Next is to decide on your powder load.  These are the rules of thumb on the international sliding scale;
- measure both shot and powder by volume
- more powder than shot achieves nothing but smoke, flame, and blown patterns
- less powder means tighter patterns in almost all cases, up to about 30% less

If observance of the above tips doesn't get patterns of about 1 foot at CAS distances (about15 yards) try the following;
- try plastic wads, or at least the shot-protector part
- alternatively make heavy paper shot cups coin-wrapper fashion
- make sure the over-powder and over-shot wads fit tightly

You are trying Pyrodex, which is 70% of the weight of blackpowder.  USE VOLUME, when comparing to black.  Hodgdon used to post data for Pyrodex but I couldn't find it. However observing the above should give you manageable & effective loads.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
MattNificent
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« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2012, 11:42:29 pm »

so a 7/8oz scoop of powder and a 1oz scoop of shot would be a good starting point?
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 12:27:52 am »

so a 7/8oz scoop of powder and a 1oz scoop of shot would be a good starting point?

Thats a very good place to start.  Even a 3/4 oz scoop.   Turn the co-relation around.  Fill your 1 oz shot-scoop with your powder and weigh the powder.  Now you have the freedom to calculate the amount of powder in grains, then find a LEE (or any other scoop;- even a homemade one) scoop to fit.

Experiment with wad columns and pattern test frequently
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
MattNificent
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« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2012, 01:55:33 am »

Thats a very good place to start.  Even a 3/4 oz scoop.   Turn the co-relation around.  Fill your 1 oz shot-scoop with your powder and weigh the powder.  now you have the freedom to calculate the amount of powder in grains, then find a LEE (or any other scoop;- even a homemade one) scoop to fit.

Experiment with wad columns and pattern test frequently

ok! thanks for the help!
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2012, 10:35:57 am »

I have suggested that one ounce of shot is enough for CAS and I will stick with that advice especially with the cost of lead.  For hunting, more is sometimes called for.  1 1/8 oz and 1 1/4 oz just seem right for the field.  The basic rules for building a load are as I set them out above within reason.

Don't make your load into a magnum.  You are trying to re-create traditional loads afterall. Another limitation is "The Gunmakers Rule" of limiting the shot load to 1/96th of the guns weight.  For example a 1 oz. load fits a six pound gun and 1 1/4 oz. fits a 7 1/2 lb gun.  More would be safe in modern guns but exceeding this "rule" affects recoil and portability without adding anything to effectiveness.

Think pattern when building a load as it is lead that knocks 'em down, not powder.  When the English gun makers were working with choke boring they experimented with variations in the amount of shot in a given bore.  They concluded that the most even shot distribution occurred when the height of the shot column was equal to the diameter of the bore.  Even patterns meant that there were the absolute minimum of holes in the pattern for the quarry to fly through.  (Excessive powder also meant that patterns became even more uneven.)

This is a SQUARE LOAD. To save us having to sit down and actually measure this, the figure for a true square load in a 12 gauge is 1 1/16 ounce.  The result of these calculations was the English "game gun" of 6 1/4 pounds using a 1 1/16 oz shot load.  Americans generally used more shot resulting in the typical hunting gun weighing 7 1/2 pounds.

Oh!  And one more thing.  Cutting down barrels to make a coach gun leads to several problems.  If you want a coachgun, buy a factory made gun as the factory has taken some steps to counter its limitations.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
harleydavis
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« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2013, 10:58:37 am »

So, I have been shooting BP shotshells for some years now. I have a box full of brass hulls that look very cool in a cartridge belt for reenactments but I have never loaded them. Thinkin it is about time after reading the informative posts here. One stupid question, does one put a roll crimp on the brass hulls? Seems redundant if one uses hot/Elmers glue but maybe not. Thank you.
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Harley Davis
"I do not believe in ghosts so I do not burn a candle waiting for them. As to the killing of a bad man, when it comes to a fight, it is the other man or me. And when the deed is done, why bother the mind? Afterall, the killing of a bad man should not bother anymore than the killing of a rat, a vicious cat or an ugly dog" James Butler Hickok when asked if he ever thought about the men he had killed.
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2013, 11:29:18 am »

So, I have been shooting BP shotshells for some years now. I have a box full of brass hulls that look very cool in a cartridge belt for reenactments but I have never loaded them. Thinkin it is about time after reading the informative posts here. One stupid question, does one put a roll crimp on the brass hulls? Seems redundant if one uses hot/Elmers glue but maybe not. Thank you.

You are correct, Sir!  There is no need to roll-crimp brass shotshells.  A very slight crimp might help insert the shells in tight shell-loops.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
harleydavis
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« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2013, 01:21:43 pm »

Question for brass hull users, what are you using for dies? The brass hulls I have are old ones that I bought new 20 years ago and have the shotgun primers. I nearly stuck one in my MEC shotgun press and will not slide into my old SXS as they are. So they need to be sized down. Even if I get the new brass hulls with rifle primers, will they need to be sized down after being fired? Doesnt look like the RCBS dies size them. Is there a die set that will work in my RockChucker? Buffalo Arms lists a set that sounds like they would size but at $191 for the die set, a fellow really needs to be committed to the brass hulls. Or, maybe just committed period!!!
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I remain, respectfully,
Harley Davis
"I do not believe in ghosts so I do not burn a candle waiting for them. As to the killing of a bad man, when it comes to a fight, it is the other man or me. And when the deed is done, why bother the mind? Afterall, the killing of a bad man should not bother anymore than the killing of a rat, a vicious cat or an ugly dog" James Butler Hickok when asked if he ever thought about the men he had killed.
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
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« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2013, 04:48:14 pm »

I have this one;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEC-SUPER-SIZER-RESIZER-12-GAUGE-SS77-/271151610037?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f21e538b5

It only sizes about an inch, so I turn the shell mouth-end-down and crank the lever again.  I still doesn't get the middle.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Abilene
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« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2013, 05:36:32 pm »

Sir Charles, that is the first time I had heard of the "Gunmaker's Rule" regarding shot weight versus gun weight.  Very interesting.

Harley, here is the sizing tool I use:



I got it some years ago from Nate Kiowa Jones.  It is a 1/2" thick steel bar, with the holes chamfered.  I place the bar over the open jaws of a vice and pound the lubed hull down through the .795" hole with a rubber mallet.  Then turn it over, insert a socket driver inside the hull (so the socket goes around the primer pocket and doesn't flatten it) and drive it back out.  Rarely does a hull need to also go through the .790 hole. 

From your description of your brass hulls (20 years old, 209 primer) it sounds like they might be the ones from Rocky Mtn. Cartridge Co. which are turned down from bar stock and are very heavy duty.  These will be difficult to size, but once sized will probably never need it again.

Good luck.
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joec
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« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2013, 05:46:02 pm »

Question for brass hull users, what are you using for dies? The brass hulls I have are old ones that I bought new 20 years ago and have the shotgun primers. I nearly stuck one in my MEC shotgun press and will not slide into my old SXS as they are. So they need to be sized down. Even if I get the new brass hulls with rifle primers, will they need to be sized down after being fired? Doesnt look like the RCBS dies size them. Is there a die set that will work in my RockChucker? Buffalo Arms lists a set that sounds like they would size but at $191 for the die set, a fellow really needs to be committed to the brass hulls. Or, maybe just committed period!!!

I'm using a pretty simple setup with RCBS Cowboy die as well as a wad/powder compress piece that I had made to fit through the center of the setup. It works real well for Black Powder loaded Magtech shells. The Press is the Lee Classic Cast (not Breech Lock one as that won't go to 1 1/4" die size).


* Lee Classic Cast1_sm.jpg (59.18 KB, 370x620 - viewed 355 times.)

* Lee Classic Cast2_sm.jpg (49.86 KB, 413x620 - viewed 333 times.)
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Joe
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harleydavis
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« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2013, 05:50:51 pm »

From your description of your brass hulls (20 years old, 209 primer) it sounds like they might be the ones from Rocky Mtn. Cartridge Co. which are turned down from bar stock and are very heavy duty.  These will be difficult to size, but once sized will probably never need it again.

Good luck.
Yeah, that was the outfit alright. They are indeed, very thick. I think a person could step on them with no effect. I will have to see if I can find one of those sizing tools you have. That might be the trick deal.
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I remain, respectfully,
Harley Davis
"I do not believe in ghosts so I do not burn a candle waiting for them. As to the killing of a bad man, when it comes to a fight, it is the other man or me. And when the deed is done, why bother the mind? Afterall, the killing of a bad man should not bother anymore than the killing of a rat, a vicious cat or an ugly dog" James Butler Hickok when asked if he ever thought about the men he had killed.
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« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2013, 10:08:16 pm »

Ok,  I've done a lot of reading.  Time for you guys to check my homework.

I have two 12 ga SxS.  One is an old Stevens 5110 with 30" F/M barrels.  The other is a new Stoeger Uplander with 28" M/IC.

The old Stevens,  although heavier,  seems to kick harder than the Stoegar using the same shells. Could be longer forcing cones in the Stoeger? 

If I wanted to load black in the Stevens,  I should use less powder volume than shot - say 3/4 (volume) to 1 oz shot.  Better to use fiber wads. But the same load in Stoeger would benefit from shot cup - either cut off plastic wad cup or homemade.

Mary and I recently handled a Stoeger coach gun.  We still like the longer barreled Uplander better.

I've seen advertised reclaimed shot that has been washed, screened and coated with something.   Would there be a problem using it if any were found local?
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2013, 12:09:02 am »

The variation in felt recoil could be due to differences in stock shape.

A common load for me is 1 oz of shot over about 60 grains of FFg.  This is very close to your 25% less than equal volume load,

Go for shot cups if the pattern won't stay within a one foot circle at CAS ranges of ABOUT 15 yards.

Personally, I don't recommend sawdoffs,(Generally they will shoot high.) but think that if you want a shortgun, buy a factory made piece. When you get it, pattern it properly for effective pattern and that the POI is not too high.  If you are going to miss with a scattergun it will usually shoot high as there is a tendency to improperly shoulder the gun when things get fast & furious, as well as not keeping a good cheek/stock weld.  Both cause overshooting.

I've not had access to reclaimed shot, but hear good things about it, at at least at our short ranges.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Bibbyman
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« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2013, 01:58:00 pm »

I stopped in at the big gunshop yesterday and picked up plastic cup wads claybusters 7/8 oz size, primers Winchester 209, and 25 lbs of 7-1/2 unplated lead shot.  They thought they had the over powder cardboard wads (12 gauge). Computer said they did but wasn't there.   ( This kind of thing happens often to me all the time.)

I get home and check their online store and they have 11 guage over powder cards.  I think I read to use the 11 guage anyway to insure they sealed tight?

I have enough Fg and FFg to make a test run.  Should I go back for the 11 gauge over powder card?   Go on without a card?  Or continue to search for 12 guage over powder card?  Or... plan C, D, or E.,?
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Blair
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« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2013, 02:11:44 pm »

Bibbyman,

Are you loading plastic or paper shot shells, or brass shells?
Brass shells are thinner than the plastic or paper. You should use slightly larger wads in the brass shells.
Using the 209 primers would suggest they are plastic or paper.
Also, if you are loading your shot shells with bp, I would suggest staying away from the plastic shot cup or power piston type wad combination.
My best,
Blair
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A Time for Prayer.
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God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2013, 04:08:17 pm »

The O/P said brass, Magtechs I think.  If so, use 11gauge overpowder cards and overshot cards.  11 gauge is about .777 which is what my 3/4" hollow punch from a cheapo set I got from Tandy gives me.  The cushion wads can be your regular 12 gauge as they will squish-up to size. 

CIRCLE FLY is your source for all wadding. Until you get set up, you can use "whatever" for wadding. Here are my freebee sources;

Over powder; scrap picture backing from your neighbourhood frame shop. 1/16" thick, so use two.

Cushion wads; 1/8" cork gasket material from your auto supply store.
                      Felt from DUROFELT
                      1/4 sheet of kitchen towel wadded up & stuffed in on top of the O/P cards.

If you have problems with loose patterns, cut off the shot protection end of a plastic wad and use that, or heavy paper in a "coin roll" manner.  BTW; the coin roll plan is usfull and traditional.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Bibbyman
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« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2013, 04:44:50 pm »

Not long after I poked post I realized I had left out I was planning to use Remington STS hulls and some Peters field load hulls that look to be identical except for color and headstamp. 

The guy at the gunshop said not to use the Federal field load hulls.  Something about tapered walls?  Naturally,  I have far more of them.  But that's not a problem as I have plenty of the STS hulls and each match everyone that does not reload dumps their hulls in a bucket.
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Blair
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« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2013, 05:29:29 pm »

STS?

Sorry, I am kind of stupid about these pseudonyms.
What does this mean?
Blair
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A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
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« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2013, 05:48:01 pm »

STS?

Sorry, I am kind of stupid about these pseudonyms.
What does this mean?
Blair

STS is a brand/model of Remington target loads.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/target-loads/premier-sts-target-loads.aspx
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Blair
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« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2013, 06:01:04 pm »

Plastic hulled shot shells?
Is that correct?
Blair
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A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
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« Reply #73 on: November 27, 2013, 06:15:52 pm »

Plastic hulled shot shells?
Is that correct?
Blair


Correct.
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Blair
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« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2013, 06:32:38 pm »

Thanks,

You all have a great Holliday Season
Blair
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A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21
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