Shot shell loading

[Cuts Crooked]

First thing first, componants....I've loaded plastic and paper hulls but never brass with black powder. The principle remains the same no matter what type of hull one uses. You have to have a primed hull,  powder, a way to seal the powder off from the rest of the componants, some kind of cushion to protect the shot, and some way to retain all these things inside the hull. The method I use most is the old card & cushion wad system. With this type of loading one measures powder into a primed empty hull, followed by a heavy card wad that is usually called an over powder wad, then a 1/2" cushion wad is added followed by shot, and the whole thing is crimped in a normal manner with a star crimp.
The other most common method is to use modern componants instead of the card and cushion wads. Most folks find the Winchester red wads are pretty good for loading over black powder. Pretty much the same scenerio, load a primed hull with black powder, seat a plastic wad, add shot, and crimp. The plastic wad acts both as a gas seal and a cushion. These will work fine in most guns! However they will leave copious amonts of melted plastic in your bore. No big deal though, at clean up time simply squirt windex down the tubes, let it set for a few minutes, and then push a heavy paper towel or wad of news print down the bore. The plastic will come out in a stringy mess, but it will come out!

Other aspects: I have found that older scatterguns, say pre 1960s, tend to work quite well with the tradtional card & cushion wads system. They have very short forcing cones, which is what these type of wads were designed for originally. Later guns tend to have longer forcing cones and sometimes are even back bored. This type of gun is intended for modern shot shells using plastic wads and they don't usually pattern very good when loaded with the old card & cushion wads. This seems to be because the longer forcing cones allow powder gasses to get into the shot column as it passes through the long forcing cone. Combine that with the lack of chokes in most "coach guns" and you have disasterous patterns. I have found that a combination of technology is the best solution in these guns, using a heavy over powder card wad in combination with a plastic shot cup with the cushion cut off! This keeps the gasses from disrupting the shot charge and also cuts down on the plastic fouling building up in the bore!

Roll crimping: I don't do roll crimps, but they are a very authentic method of loading paper hulls, and can even be done to plastic hulls. This utilizes a thin card wad on top of the shot and the sides of the shell are "rolled" down to secure it.  Orginal roll crimping tools are often seen for sale at gun shows and on e-bay. If you are into that sort of thing go for it! They are cool looking when folks can see ya popping them into the chambers, and they work just as well as any star crimp!

Brass hulls: As previously noted I have never messed with brass hulls. The Cool Factor with them is MAJOR! But the expense has always put me off my stride when it comes to investing in them. I HATE the idea of stepping on one and ruining it during a stage! Nevertheless lots of pards use them, for the cool factor if nothing else. Loading them is not much differnt than loading any other hull, powder, then wads, then shot, topped off with a thin overshot wad glued in the top of the hull. Some pards use authentic watergless to seal the overshot wad, but hot glue seems just about as prevelant as anything, with plain old Elmers white glue near the top of ythe list too.

Loads: The ancient rule of thumb is to load with the same volume of shot as powder. Ergo a measure that throws a given amount of shot such as 1 1/8 oz is the same volume that you want to use to throw your powder charges with. This is not a hard fast rule but is always a good starting point. I've noticed that if I want to make changes it is best to go in the direction of more shot than powder, in order to maintain a good pattern. When I have tried it the other way, more powder than shot, I always end up with really crappy patterns. I can't explain it, but that's the way it works.

Finally: You are going to have to experiment with your loads and gun to find what works best for you. I started loading black powder in an ancient Crescent 12 bore and got fabulous patterns with the old card & cushion wads. This gun was designed for them and its chokes throw thier very best patterns with them. Your gun is different than mine and what works in mine may or may not work for you, particularly in an unchoked gun. But the above information should get you started in the right direction to find happiness with black powder and scattergunz!

Pards, please feel free to add information that you have discovered! This is a topic that needs all the input we can get!

[Arcey]

Just a word on plastic.

I mixed Claybuster wads with Pyrodex.  They didn’t like one another in my Stoeger.  After five stages, my 12 turned into a 20.

Between me ‘n another BP shooter, we tried different solvents without a bit of luck at the end of the day.  Finally got the crap out with Ed’s Red with a heavy acetone content and a bronze brush.  The barrels ain’t been the same since.

Usin’ Goex now but I don’t mix it with plastic unless I stick a card wad twix the powder ‘n the plastic.  Just ain’t no sense in havin’ ta scrape plastic out yer barrels.  Wads suitable for BP are just too easy ta come by.  Grits makes a good filler ta get the column height proper for a solid fold crimp.

[Silver Creek Slim]

I use Goex FFg, 1/8" card wad, 1/2" fiber wad, shot, overshot card. Sometimes I roll crimp. Sometimes I star crimp. And, sometimes I glue an overshot card in. I found that when ya don't crimp, ya can get more powder and shot in the shell. For instance, my current load for 12ga Magtech brass shells hold 1 3/8oz of shot and FFg Goex. 

For brass shells, some people say ya need ta use one gauge bigger wads ta make a good gas seal. For instance, with 12 ga shells you would use 11 ga wads. I would agree with that if you are using the shells for hunting, but at CAS ranges I have not had a problem moving/knocking down any shotgun targets with the same gauge wads.

[Arcey]

Problem I've seen with that is the overshot wad comin' undone.

Wanna make it plain I ain't loaded them brass thingys.  I do shoot regular with someone who does (Slim, I still hate ya didn't meet him).  Watched while he worked 'em up in the Mag Tech stuff.  He couldn't keep the 12 ga. overshot wads glued in.  He'd load two, drop the hammer on the right barrel 'n the shot would pour out the left barrel.

Went to 11 ga. o/s/w stuff, made sure the mouth of the shell was clean ah lube before 'e glued 'em in, problem solved.

[litl rooster]

Problem I've seen with that is the overshot wad comin' undone.

Wanna make it plain I ain't loaded them brass thingys.  I do shoot regular with someone who does (Slim, I still hate ya didn't meet him).  Watched while he worked 'em up in the Mag Tech stuff.  He couldn't keep the 12 ga. overshot wads glued in.  He'd load two, drop the hammer on the right barrel 'n the shot would pour out the left barrel.

Went to 11 ga. o/s/w stuff, made sure the mouth of the shell was clean ah lube before 'e glued 'em in, problem solved.

Arcey, I have had 11 gauge wad cards do the same thing.......Till I know better I am blaming heat(from the barrel) travel and the glue. I have cut some new cards that are a bit bigger and am going to try them next load session

[Wildcat Will]

I am  the fella who shot many blanks with the brass shot shells Arcey was talking about.  What I have found works with the Magtech shells is #11 over powder (1/8") and pre-lubed cushions (1/2") and then a #10 over shot wad glued in with Elmers white. 

After cleaning and putting in the primer, I pour 75 gns of FF (Goex) manually and put in the overshot wad.  I then manually compress the load with a 7/8" dowel.  Then the pre-lubed cushion goes in.  Because of the oversize of the cushion it leaves bits and pieces so that gets wiped off with a dry cleaning patch.  Next I use 70% rubbing alcohol on a cleanning patch and wipe down the inside of each shell twice.  The second time the patch looks pretty clean.  Then I scoop 1 1/8 oz of #8 shot.  I cap it off with the #10 over shot wad and compress with the dowel again.  Then comes the Elmers white glue.  I run a bead around the edges of the wad and then put a gob on top to completely cover the wad. 

With new shells I found I needed to rough them up with the brass brush to have something for the glue to grab onto.

I have not had a bad shot since I started this ritual.  Some of what I do may be a bit of overkill, but I put out some good smoke and fire and I have not found a knockdown I can not take down 10 -15 yards.  I have not tried to check the pattern on paper but it works at match and looks and sounds great. 

As for the concern with getting shells that get stepped on I have had a couple but I have always been able to reshape by hand enough to get them into the SxS and then they get resized nicely after firing. 

[Grapeshot]

I load both Metalic, Steel and Brass, as well as Plastic Hulls, and some Paper Hulls.

1.  Metalic:  I bought a case of Russian 12 Gage copper plated shot shells about 10 years ago.  After experimenting with them over the past few years I ended up pulling out their guts and reloading them with Black Powder, Pyrodex, and 777.  Most of the hulls were restuffed with their original felt fibre cushion wads and a charge of 1 1/8 oz of #7 shot.  The shot was kept in place by the original plastic plug that held the old shot charge in place.

Once the berdan primer was popped, I drilled out the primer pocket with a 15/64th drill bit and seated a Winchester # 209 primer.  Next came a 4.0cc or two 2.5 cc dippers of FFg, Pyrodex RS or FFg 777.  They were followed by Circle Fly Wads and a shot charge as above topped with an 11 Gage over shot card glued in place with Elmer's Glue.  I have also squirted a bead of Blue and Gray revolver grease or Bore Butter over the cushion wad prior to dropping the shot charge on top of it.  This keeps the crud down in the barrel.

The brass hulls are loaded the same way, except that a Large Rifle Primer is used.  The primer Pocket was deepened with a special primer pocket cleaner/reamer and the flash hole opened to 3/32nd inch.

The Plastic Hulls are picked special.  I like to use high brass hulls that had been used for slug rounds.  I prefer the LightField Hybrd Hull, but Winchester and Remington will work as well.  In lieu of those I have also used Breneke hulls with the translucient hulls.  Kind of neat to see all your components through the walls of the hull.  I have to use a MEC collet style sizer to squeeze the brass head down to fit into the chambers of my double barrels.  The standard sizing die on the MEC 600 Jr doesn't allow the brass head to clear the die on the up stroke.  The primer decaping pin doesn't push the hull clear when using the high brass hulls.

Although these are my prefered hulls, I have also used Remington Gun Club and Active Hulls with good results.  On all the Plastic Hulled loads, I find that 4.0cc's of Powder, BP, Pyrodex RS or 777 will work equally well.  Again, Circle Fly 12 Gage components are used and a MEC 600 Jr is used to drop the shot charge and crimp the hulls with a six point fold with all Slug Hulls.  Any hull that originally crimped with an eight point fold requires me to switch crimp starters.  No big deal.

I recently came into a windfall of old Alcan Wads that seem to work well with my old Federal Paper Hulls.  They are loaded as described above with the plastic hulls.  I am looking forward to trying these out ASAP.

[Doctor Bill]

One thing to add about roll crimps.  If you are using paper hulls, the older hand-cranked crimpers work fine but give mixed results with plastic hulls.  If you want to use plastic hulls, my experience is that the roll crimpers powered by a drill worked better for me.

Doctor Bill

[Will Ketchum]

I just returned from the NCOWS Nationals in Kentucky.  The match had a lot of shotgun knockdown
targets.  The first day I was using AA hulls with 65 grs. of Pyrodex RS and an ounce of 9 shot.  I had no problem knocking down the targets.  The second day I was running low on the double As so I switched to the brass hulls which were loaded with the same load.  In both cases I was using felt cushion wad, paper over shot and no plastic cup.  I had trouble knocking down the targets with the brass hull loads.  Now I admit I have never patterned this load and will soon.  But the shot was hitting the targets fairly hard but the targets just wouldn't go down.  needless to say since these were must knock down targets I lost a lot of time and I was extremely embarrassed.

Any ideas what the problem might be? 

Will Ketchum

[Arcey]

Did you have shot cups in the AAs, Will?