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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  CAS FAQ (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Will Ketchum)  |  Topic: Out of the box CAS guns - not good enough? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Out of the box CAS guns - not good enough?  (Read 45995 times)
Shotgun Toots
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2006, 06:11:35 pm »

I've recently obtained an original Winchester '97 takedown pump shotgun (manufactured in 1914) which has been thoroughly checked by a professional as safe to shoot.  Here's my question.  There was some white paint on the stock that I carefully removed with quadruple "0" steel wool, (wrapped the rest of the gun in a plastic bag which was taped shut to keep out debris).  I don't believe the wood was originally varnished and it sure has lots of dings in it.  Should I oil the wood to protect it and if so, what should I use?  I've used Murphy's Oil Soap to clean it some.  This isn't a beautiful shotgun, but shoots well and has lots of character.

Thanks for your help.
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2006, 08:28:18 pm »

Boiled linseed oil is what I use. You can get it from Brownells or Midway under the name, Lin-Speed oil.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=8004&title=GUNSTOCK+OIL
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« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2006, 11:52:07 pm »

Thanks, Marshall, I do that.  Appreciate the advice.
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2006, 10:07:44 pm »

I do not know squat about SASS / CAS shooting but I have been thinking about it for some time  I own several single action revolvers mostly 44 magnums but no rifle or shotgun  I am also timid about going to an event to watch because thats my nature.  Its easy to reply to a group of faceless people but just showing up at a match and not knowing anyone is hard for me.
Maddog, just get out and do it.  I saw a guy at my local target range with an EOT t-shirt in 1985, went up and asked where he got it, we talked for several hours, and I now consider him one of my closest friends.  We live way far apart and haven't seen each other in years, but stay in touch via the 'net.  Yep, he invited me to their next shoot, and I've been having fun ever since! Grin
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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2006, 05:45:04 pm »

As for getting action jobs, Me and Old Top sorta feel that the old time cowboys shot 'em outta the box, and that should be good enough for us. I have an old Dakota that is really heavy in the hammer/trigger pull, but I have shot it so much over the last 25 years (in fact I could probalby tell you which of my guns I was holding blindfolded) I am used to the feel. MY GW2's feel smooth outta the box, so long story, I like to learn to use the gun as i get it....that's just me, and I aint tryin to be top dawg anyways...just shoot clean.
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2007, 12:51:20 pm »

We (for the most part) do our own gunsmithin'. 
We dang-neart ALWAYS put lighter hammer & SOMETIMES lighter trigger springs for ease of operation in rifles & revolvers.  Not as much on the SxS's.  Roll Eyes
We also smooth up (deburr edges on some slidin' & rotatin' guts) on some brand new guns.  And lube them ('zactly like St George said) with Break Free & good gun grease.

Many used guns we have are much smoother jus' from years of use.

Mustang Gregg
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2008, 01:22:16 am »

I do not know squat about SASS / CAS shooting but I have been thinking about it for some time  I own several single action revolvers mostly 44 magnums but no rifle or shotgun  I am also timid about going to an event to watch because thats my nature.  Its easy to reply to a group of faceless people but just showing up at a match and not knowing anyone is hard for me.

We all were new he first time we turned up. I went for a look, asked a few questions, next thing I know they had scrounged around, I had shotshells in my shirt pocket, a passel of borrowed guns, a too small gunbelt tied up with a bit of rope, a borrowed set of eye protectors, disposable ear plugs and I was shooting cowboy in my baseball cap!

I just got back from a three day shoot and the only ugly scene I witnessed was two friends arguing over who was going to lend me a spare rifle after mine broke (actually rattled apart, still ok when I can get it back together).

You'll get a heaping helping of hospitality!
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« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2008, 07:37:17 pm »

There are a number of gun dealers around the country that specialize in cowboy action guns.  They often have stocks of used, tuned firearms available for purchase at fair prices. 

Ask around at your local matches and see if there is one in your area or one that folks in your area suggest.  I know of at least one such dealer that will let you work out payments to get what you want.  (If you want to know, PM me.)

There is also the SASS classifieds as well as classifieds on various club sites.  That will help you perhaps find what you are looking for without breaking the bank.  Post a Want To Buy ad if there is something you are looking for specifically.  Often it turns out that someone has been thinking of selling that extra (whatever you are after) and just needed the push of someone asking to go ahead and sell it.   

You can buy off the shelf guns and play also, if that is what you want to do.  You may not win any speed side matches with what you are shooting, but most of them will work out of the box. 

For leather, you can again ask around at your local matches.  There may be someone that has a rig that they haven't used in a while that would be perfect for you.  There may also be a largely unknown small local maker that can make you quite nice custom gear for a good starter price, also. 

Just for Pete's sake, go to a match BEFORE you buy all your gear.  It will save you time and grief.  Most of the time there is someone (or several someones) that will let you try out their gear.  Guns, what have you.  You can avoid wasting money and making it more expensive by going to a match and asking around.

Take care!
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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2008, 09:18:58 pm »

Best advice I can give is to find out about your SASS/CAS club.  Make contact with the club's Territorial Govenor or POC.  Whether you are a novice or veteran shooter, most clubs will have extra guns, ammo, and the necessary equipment to get you started.  When I started, I had only one pistol.  (CA has strict rules on how many guns you can purchase in a one month period.)  But, club members loaned me the firearms that I needed to compete.  I supplied my own ammunition and offered up my spent brass and shotgun shells to the kind members that let me use their guns.  I offered to clean the loaner weapons I used during the shoots.  Using loaner guns, is a good way to get an idea of what your options are in purchasing firearms. 

I bought guns that I like; they are stock, right out of the box.  No modifications.  I use my forearms for other things besides CAS shooting, so I purposely bought firearms that I could use for more than one purpose.  I will never be a top 10% shooter, but I have a lot of fun shooting.  For me it is shhoting as fast as I feel comfortable, while always aiming for that "Clean Match" designation,  all while dressing as authenticly as possible.  For me it is another way to connect to western history and my families history.  I keep track of my shooting times and scores and try to improve at each mew match. 

The bottom line:  Be safe and HAVE FUN!
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« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2009, 10:09:36 am »

I shot cowboy for about two years before I messed with action jobs with guns.

As SP already mentioned early in this thread - after two years - I knew the guns well - their point of aim and their internals.

Then I could pick and choose what I wanted worked on and understood better what various action job things would do for my guns.

as far as leather - if you are patient and do some searching on the internet and at local clubs - you can alwasy find used leather and or people who do great local work for less than what the bigger names are charging.

My two cents

PR
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« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2009, 01:50:43 pm »

Frankly, if you're afraid of the cost, then shop around and get some used guns.  CAS is a pretty inexpensive hobby.  I've had others that are more mainstream and a LOT more expensive.

This is all relative...

IDPA runs me:

$40 annual membership
$500 cost of Springfield 1911
$30 belt
$30 holster

Total $600 give or take before fees, range, ammo, etc.

CAS

$55 SASS membership
$1,000 for 2 SAA type guns on average (be it Californians, Great Westerns, Smoke Wagons, etc... give or take $200)
$500 for a shotgun
$500 for a rifle (cheapest being the Rossi 92, otherwise you're looking at north of $1k for your '66s, '73s, etc)
$200 for a dual gun leather rig
$100 make or buy your cart
$100 for shotgun cartridge belt, and other access.
$200 minimum for your "costume" and that price is just boots, britches, shirt, hat that's just "basic"

Average total $2,655.


I don't know about you but $2,655 is a far cry from $600 and no where near the neighborhood of "inexpensive".  Now if you're talking a golf habit or bass fishing with a boat, etc... I can see your point.
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« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2009, 02:05:38 pm »

To weigh in on the actual out-of-box (OOB) question, it depends.

I've got 3 of 4 single action pistols that could have gone to the range untouched.  The fourth is out of time, gouges the cylinder and locks up.  So some may or may not be able to truly get an out of box that'll work.  That being said... my story will make my point for me.

I started IDPA a couple of years ago believing as always that I should fight like I train and that means training like I fight.  I won't go into the M9, but I'll tell you that for my concealed carry I wanted to be more proficient with it than just a day or two a year at the range. 

I started IDPA with my carry De Santis holster, my Glock 23, and the only thing I had to buy was a magazine holster.  I learned a lot about the manual of arms in situations with my Glock that pure range time doesn't get you.  I was never the slowest, but also never the fastest.  Towards the end of the first year I was the upper faster half of the club.  That's with a shorter barrel, without a trigger job, fiber optic sights, or fancy holsters.  So yes, you can start CAS, IDPA or whatever (not IPSC though..) with just an OOB piece.

I finally succumbed though when I tried my friend's fiber optic sighted Glock 19 and cut 3 seconds off my time with the "fancy" sights and 1 inch longer barrel!  That's when my hobby gun, the 1911, came out of the safe and started being used in IDPA.  So I got corrupted and started... gasp, "gaming".  A trigger job, fancy sights, and a Kydex rig later I'm a perversion of who I was when I started IDPA.  I'm so ashamed.
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« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2009, 12:36:11 am »

Interesting thread..., an old thread, but interesting never-the-less.

I haven't attended a match yet, however, I have bought two new, Cimarron rifles. I'm a old gun nut, so I know what I'm doing, when it comes to firearms.

Just with the Two Cimmaron rifles, one is an 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 38-40, the other is another 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 44-40, I am in this, up to now, at about $2700.00, just for the rifles.

I wanted the rifles, despite the cost...! I asked Cimarron to hand picked them from their stock, and I got a couple of beauties.

I want one more 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle, this one will be in 32-20. And, I want a Cimarron 1876 in 45-75, if the 1876 is made by Uberti.

I bought the Cimarrons because of the extra, original barrel stamping that Cimarron puts on them. It makes them look a liittle more original.

CZ just came out with a 12 GA, SXS Coach gun, and it is a beauty. I wanted the CZ because of the beauty, and the quality, of the firearm. That was $800.00 and change for the new CZ.

I already had a TOZ (Russian) 12 GA, SXS coach gun in good unfired condition. The problem with the TOZ is that the finish is so utilitarian, and it has strong hammer springs, which I call the hammer springs from hell. I will eventually sell the TOZ to some lucky person.

I want several Cimarron SAA's, two in each caliber, to match the three Cimarron 1873 rifles. However, since I live in the state of granola, (California, the land of the fruits, flakes and nuts) I will only be able to purchase one handgun a month. So, unless I can get a FTF deal from somebody, It is going to take quiet a while to acquire the SAA's I want.

I'm not wealthy; I live on a fixed income. However, I know how to save for what I want.

Bill
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« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2010, 06:46:09 pm »

Rugers will be out of the box reliable over built and darn near indestructable.
Baikal now Remmington Spartan shot guns will be reliable, very stiff and will need chambers honed to shuck shells quickly but the least expensive.
Just about any rifle will do.  They slick up over time with normal wear and if one can take them apart, debur that probably will help a lot.
for 99.9 percent of the new shooters out there if you put away $ 2 per week you will have enough money to buy slicked up race guns long before your skills exceed the capabilities of the guns and the guns are the only thing keeping you from winning EOT or winter range.

Get what feels good, shoots good enough and will be semi reliable and have fun.  Winning will come a long time later and is not necessary to enjoy the sport.  I am still timed with and Hour Glass with rifles and pistols and a Calendar with the Shot gun, but I doubt if any one has any more fun.
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« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2011, 09:28:52 pm »

Interesting thread..., an old thread, but interesting never-the-less.

I haven't attended a match yet, however, I have bought two new, Cimarron rifles. I'm a old gun nut, so I know what I'm doing, when it comes to firearms.

Just with the Two Cimmaron rifles, one is an 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 38-40, the other is another 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 44-40, I am in this, up to now, at about $2700.00, just for the rifles.

I wanted the rifles, despite the cost...! I asked Cimarron to hand picked them from their stock, and I got a couple of beauties.

I want one more 1873 24" Deluxe Sporting Rifle, this one will be in 32-20. And, I want a Cimarron 1876 in 45-75, if the 1876 is made by Uberti.

I bought the Cimarrons because of the extra, original barrel stamping that Cimarron puts on them. It makes them look a liittle more original.

CZ just came out with a 12 GA, SXS Coach gun, and it is a beauty. I wanted the CZ because of the beauty, and the quality, of the firearm. That was $800.00 and change for the new CZ.

I already had a TOZ (Russian) 12 GA, SXS coach gun in good unfired condition. The problem with the TOZ is that the finish is so utilitarian, and it has strong hammer springs, which I call the hammer springs from hell. I will eventually sell the TOZ to some lucky person.

I want several Cimarron SAA's, two in each caliber, to match the three Cimarron 1873 rifles. However, since I live in the state of granola, (California, the land of the fruits, flakes and nuts) I will only be able to purchase one handgun a month. So, unless I can get a FTF deal from somebody, It is going to take quiet a while to acquire the SAA's I want.

I'm not wealthy; I live on a fixed income. However, I know how to save for what I want.

Bill

As for the CZ shotgun look for a Liberty I or II it is the same shotgun. I have one I got for a bit over $300 used and a fine shotgun. Now mine is in 24" barrel but the 20" are out there all over the place. They run in the $400 range from what I've seen. Oh and they are made in Turkey by the way.
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« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2011, 12:43:48 pm »

Biggest thing for me was finding calibers I liked. I'm meeting half way by getting the cylinders rebored for what I want, and is easy to find ammo or reload it. So if you don't like .38 or .45LC don't give up, they have ways of making what you want!!! Wink
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« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2011, 08:09:59 am »

I bought a pair of Taylor's Smoke Wagons in .38 Special a while back. They are very smooth and worked great right out of the box. I shoot em' bone stock and they have definitely improved my pistol shooting. I like the feel of the checkered grips.


* smokewagons w.jpg (143.93 KB, 618x681 - viewed 316 times.)
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« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2011, 07:03:28 pm »

For new shooters, the first couple of years or maybe more the limiting factor is learning the ins and outs of the matches. Learning to shoot quickly and accurately, learning to reload the shotgun quickly and things like that. There are alot of things to work on. A half a second saved because your legs are strong and you can run a little bit faster to make the next station is the same as a half a second gained because you spent $500.00 having your lever action short stroked and slicked up.The guns can be made faster, but it's folly to think that you can slick up you guns enough to overcome poor technique and teqnique comes with pratice and learning. Remember that the search for great technique does not always lead to great speed, but the search for great speed does always lead to great technique.
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« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2011, 10:08:09 pm »

I like them Smoke Wagons, Johnny. A pard I shoot with has a pair, and with the  slimmer grips, they have a good 'Colt' feel to them.

Deadwood
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« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2011, 04:29:53 pm »

This is my some what limited experience.

Ruger Vaqueros Original and New generally shot when (work right out of the box) and where you point them.

Baikal shotguns can be frustrating out of the box.  Shells will not shuck without being pulled and when you open the action the default opening is about 3/4 open with the lower portion of the chambers still blocked by the breach.  If you push the barrels all the way open and push the locking lever to the left the barrels will stay completely open.  If you do not touch the loading lever they will return to the 3/4 open position if you let them.  This can be rather frustrationg.
I was able to polish my chambers enough that the shells now shuck easily makes no difference if slick sided Win AA or Ribbed Federals.   Used a long cleaning jag and about 3 inch wide swath of green scotch bright pad bought in packets from Sams or Walmart (cut across short axis)  Chucked it up in my drill press, was difficult to get into chambers intially.  Turned on the drill press and raised and lowered the barrels slowly until they got warm.  Shut off drill press and changed to other barrel.  Repeated process numerous times.  Periodically reassembled shotgun and checked shucking with fired shells.  Chambers start to get pretty shiney.  Quit when I thought it was ok.

Fired a match and found still did not shuck reliably but much better than before.

Cleaned gun and honed somemore.  Ended up doing about 30 - 45 seconds per barrel with a little headlight renewal polishing compound.  Work great now.

I have an old circa 1995 rossi 1892 that is pretty stiff and somewhat frustrationg as It slowes me down.  Slciking one of these may be money well spent.

If you are in it just for fun and don't really care what the closck says out of box guns even the Rossi will work.  I have heard the newer guns are a lot slicker out of the box than older ones.
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« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2012, 04:07:29 am »

Shoot them out of the box, no slicking or short stroking.

They didn't do it in the old days so we shouldn't either. I love hearing people talking about short stroking their rifles and saying "If they could have done it back then they would have" my reply is always "Well hell, mount a laser on there as well cause if they could have done that they would have"
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2012, 06:58:36 pm »

Does steak sauce make a steak good or does it cover the inadequacies of the chef and taste of poorly prepared meat?
You can sprinkle powdered sugar on a turd and call it a donut. But, at the end of the day it is still a POS.
To a point, modifications can make any gun better. But no amount of customizing will make a crap gun great.

I am not in the business of promoting certain brand names but I will tell you that some manufacturers are better than others. I also know that just because a gun is more expensive than others, does not make it better. In some cases, the high price one pays is for the name of the manufacturer on the gun, not for the quality of the gun.

In general, Rugers are thought by many, to be the best all around 6-shooter to have. But, as good as they may be, you will quickly notice that there are plenty of ways to improve them.... which is true for any gun, no matter who's name is stamped on it.
Is it good enough? Yes.
Could it be better? Yes







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« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2012, 11:18:14 am »

The New Vaqueros are the best Ruger SA ever made. I have quite a few Rugers, and while they are all good, they all tolerated a bit of polishing and spring changing here and there to make them better.

I bought a couple of New Vaqueros last year. Having been down this road with Ruger SA's before, I was all set to slick them up. All the normal places that can stand some help were already helped by the factory. I didn't mess with them, I just started shooting them.

Shotgun, I got a couple of Double Trigger Stoeger Supreme coach guns (S.S. receivers). I polished the chambers and put in aftermarket firing pins (never had a trouble with the original pins however).  The reason I have two of them is sort of a long story. I would suggest that unless you do your research first, stick with the double trigger.  I also replaced the factory screw-in chokes with a set of aftermarket stainless I.C. chokes so that both barrels would pattern the same.

Rifle, wanted a .45 to match the revolvers. I looked for a Rossi 92... couldn't find one (long back order at the time). I looked for a Marlin in 45..couldn't find one. Factory told me they dropped that caliber when they moved out of CT.  Wound up with an HRA Big Boy.  I had some feeding issues with it that the factory fixed no charge, no grief. It works flawlessly now and I didn't have to pay anything to slick it up.


So, the only one I spent any after-out-of-the-box money on was the shotgun - maybe $200 in parts and  the chamber hone to do two shotguns.  No gunsmith need to do any of the work... it is all pretty simple.

Rick
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« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2012, 07:45:44 am »

Forgive me, but I'm sure you meant to say
The New Vaqueros are the best Ruger SA ever made....
Rick
Except for the 3-screw Blackhawks!  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2012, 04:06:46 pm »

I was able to polish my [SxS shotgun] chambers enough that the shells now shuck easily makes no difference if slick sided Win AA or Ribbed Federals.   Used a long cleaning jag and about 3 inch wide swath of green scotch bright pad bought in packets from Sams or Walmart (cut across short axis)  Chucked it up in my drill press, was difficult to get into chambers intially.  Turned on the drill press and raised and lowered the barrels slowly until they got warm.  Shut off drill press and changed to other barrel.  Repeated process numerous times.  Periodically reassembled shotgun and checked shucking with fired shells.  Chambers start to get pretty shiney.  Quit when I thought it was ok.

Fired a match and found still did not shuck reliably but much better than before.

Cleaned gun and honed somemore.  Ended up doing about 30 - 45 seconds per barrel with a little headlight renewal polishing compound.  Work great now.

Something that worked for me on a brand-new SxS that already had halfway decent chambers -- an oversized bore mop chucked into an electric drill using the end of an old cleaning rod.  Liberally coat the bore mop with Colgate Toothpaste (the old fashioned, plain-white kind).

Turn on the drill motor, work the bore mop repeatedly up and down the chamber.  Alternate chambers.  Remove. Clean out all the toothpaste and oil the shotgun appropriately.  Shoot a match.

For me, one application was enough to make the chambers able to shuck out the empties slicker'n -- um -- never mind.  I repeat it every now and then, just to keep the naturally-forming residue under some kind of control.

Plain ol' Colgate Toothpaste is just about the finest cleaning/rubbing/honing compound there is, and heck knows its cheap enough...
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