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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den  |  The Dark Arts (Moderator: Lucky Irish Tom)  |  Topic: Static and BP 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Cuts Crooked
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« on: December 20, 2005, 08:44:30 am »


we offer the following website...without endorsing it in any way. It is a good look at the BP/static electricity phenomonom and YOU have to decide how you feel about it.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2005, 07:50:57 pm »

Hi there Cuts,
I remember reading that article awhile back. The one question that came to my mind was.......what do you suppose would happen if he didn't have the block of metal grounded, which is under the white paper?  Wink
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Cuts Crooked
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2005, 09:04:59 pm »

Quote
The one question that came to my mind was.......what do you suppose would happen if he didn't have the block of metal grounded, which is under the white paper? 

I'm guessin.....Nuthin! Static gotta have a ground to go too, jist laik all 'lectricty, even lightning. ('course.. lightniing is jist static taken to an incredible extreme  Shocked ) Iffin it ain't got a ground ta go too it don' dew nuffin but remain as potential until it finds one.
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2005, 11:25:44 pm »

Nuthin?.................Could be. You're guess is as good as mine, but it's helpful to get as much info about this as possible.

I personally know of somewho who had a BP accident caused by static electricity , and he burned himself pretty good, scared the hell outa him! He later attributed it to having a plastic mat beneath his feet on the floor, if I recall correctly. I could have him recount the story to me, though, if it would help anyone.

One might also want to check out the information posted about static & BP by Abilene, SASS # 27489, AKA David Harper....on the webpage titled ....Black Powder (and Substitutes) Cartridge Loading for CAS

http://users3.ev1.net/~dave42/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm......

scroll down to "Static Concerns"
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gmatov
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2005, 03:12:42 am »

A lot of the time "static electricity" is blamed for a lot of stuff it didn't do. I build a bunch of computers for my kids and grands. All the 'puter sites tell you to wear a wristband, and to walk on "static free" mats, and touch the chassis to discharge, before you pick up such a sensitive part as a hard drive of a screw, or a CD drive bezel. Funny, the first thing they tell you is to unplug the power supply from the wall, where the only ground in the house is, the grounding prong on a 3 prong plug. Where did you ground to?

I didn't click on the above "static =BOOM" site, but did go to a site that sent about 5000 volts through powder and could not make it ignite. I don't think walking across a wool carpet and picking up your can of BP is taking a bomb in your hands.

If the above is not the site I went to, I will go there and post it.

Are we becoming a bunch of wimps? Oh, Oh, don't come close to me, we might launch a spark, and both be dead from the "bomb" I have in my hand. Nonsense.

Cheers,

George
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Cuts Crooked
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2005, 08:42:37 am »

I've been to Abeliens' site before and read those anecdotes concerning the possible connection between static and BP accidents. The one thing that stands out in my mind is that each of the incidents mentioned provide no definitive proof that static was the culprit. It is assumed.

No one has been able to reproduce the circumstances in any of those incidents! (yes it has been tried, by the powder companies in fact) Given that they cannot be reproduced in laboratory conditions, I would have to question the validity of of those incident being static related.

What CAN be proven, and is reproducable in lab conditions, is that suspended dust particles in the air can be caused to explode under certain concentrations, even flour can do this. It is actually a "flash fire" but it is so fast and powerfull that it simulates an explosion.

Final analysis: We don't know and are not likely too. But it would appear that the chances of of a BP explosion being initiated by normal human activity related is sllim to the point of being a non issue.
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Warthog
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2006, 10:47:06 am »

Lightning is not dangerous till it strikes you.  Life ain't safe cuz yer gonna die.  Those are two extremes of the question.  Somewhere in between lies the truth, and I suspect that the truth varies depending on conditions prevailing in the area where black powder is handled.

I've tried my best to set off black powder with electric sparks and have been unable to do it.  I've lit other stuff on fire during the experiment and that lit the powder, but I've not been able to lite the powder directly with electric sparks from static, VanDeGraff (sp) generator or Tessla coil.  I have a cute Jacobs Ladder that I like to set up for Halloween that uses a coil from a neon beer sign.  The sparks run up the wires till they get too far apart, about 8", and then they start over again.  I've not been able to set off black powder with it either.

So, tomorrow if I blow myself up in my loading lab, it probably won't be from electric sparks setting off black powder.

I have one question for the pard that posted on the Goex board.  Did he try the same experiment with smokeless heathen fad powder?

DD-DLoS
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2006, 01:40:57 pm »

The question I got for the feller on the Goex forum is what was he using to get the 30,000 volts.  Seems kind of low for a Van De Graff but seems about right for an ignition coil which will give you very hot spark.  I would interesting to know the amp reading he had at 30,000 volts.  Going to extremes, I think we would all agree that the arc from an arc welder would set of BP and we know that arc  from a Van De Graff will not.  I'm suprised DD's beer sign coil would not set off the BP. 

IMHO, the biggest threat to life and limb are birthdays, to many of them will kill ya.
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2006, 02:55:32 pm »

Thank you Fox Creek for bringing this to our board. I find it interesting!

You know, I've seen more than one site that has pictures of attempts to ignite BP with static, this is the first to show success! Which leaves me thinkn about the point made by other posters, how much danger is really involved when considered against the risks we all take every day. I will not advise anyone to ignore the possibilities concerning static and BP, but I refuse to let it control my actions to any great extent either! Heck! I once dated a redhead fer cryin out loud! Shocked Cheesy
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 06:59:17 pm »

Heck! I once dated a redhead fer cryin out loud! Shocked Cheesy

My hat's off to ya Cuts, I have alway lived life on the edge, skydived, rode a Harley, but I never had the nerve to date redhead. Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2006, 02:19:59 am »

Someone is always going to come up with a bad thing about everything.

BP is Static Sensitive. Well, no. But I read somewhere it was. Well, no. But, I found another site that said it was! Well, no. Well, how come you say it isn't? Well, because no one has ever made it do it again under any kind of controlled test. Period!
A fluke? Well, yeah, mebbe even the guy was smoking at the time. I smoke, so that is possible, though I do not smoke while reloading.

Isn't it a hoot that all those who post here are BP shooters?  I mean, we are shooting 150 year old replicas, and we want them to be 50,000 psi proof steel, guarantee me that I can't possibly get hurt, no matter what load I put in that chunk of iron.

Nothing about what is safe, just can I use 30 grs, 40 grs.

You could buy a Redhawk today, and shoot it, and have it blow up in your hand.

Cheers,

George
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2006, 01:33:58 pm »

When it comes to the BP static electricity thing with BP in a plastic powder measure, I donít buy it. However, Iíve got a pretty extensive track record of blowing things up and burning things down. Since my head is about 6 inches from the powder measure, even though I donít buy it, Iíve always erred on the side of caution and hand dipped.
While contemplating the origins of the universe and other deep thoughts, reloading BP shotgun shells today I was struck by the great question. Iím loading Schuetzen powder, which has bounced its way across the Atlantic in its plastic jug, surrounded by thousands of other plastic jugs. I then take it and pour it into a plastic cool whip container, and scoop it out with my plastic Lee dipper, dump it into a plastic funnel, which drops it into the plastic shotgun shell and scrunch a plastic wad on top of it.
 For those true believers in the static electricity debate. Is a powder measure magic plastic that has more static than other plastics? Am I missing something here? Inquiring minds need to know.
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2006, 05:36:19 pm »

a couple of years ago, it seems as though all the favorite old wives tales about black powder were debunked by some reseach that was credible and convincing.

to make a long report short: one cannot make black powder ignite or explode by running a spark or a shower of sparks over it or through it.

seem to me that the metal cans some
real powder is sold in is more likely to make sparks when one screws the metal cap off and on but it doesn't.   

how or why the old stories got started and why all the scare tactics exist would be interesting to research.   but i suspect they were all done by the usual liberal control freaks or their media.
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44caliberkid
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2006, 10:03:23 pm »

The post "Black powder and static revisited" shows BP being ignited by an electric arc.  I guess there may have been some subterfuge here, as to the nature of the electric arc. (not generated by static).
  Just as a personal observation, our house is very dry this time of year and we get static shocks (arcs) all day long, from touching door knobs to petting our animals.  While the shock is startling, it doesn't burn my skin (or ignite BP)   If I stroke a flint across a piece of steel. I get a shower of sparks that do burn my skin if they get on me, and ignite BP.
  All sparks are not created equal, a spark does not always indicate a potential for ignition.
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Fox Creek Kid
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2006, 11:05:42 pm »

Quote
All sparks are not created equal, a spark does not always indicate a potential for ignition.

I've had many a woman tell me just that.  Grin Wink
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Arcey
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2006, 12:12:03 am »

Wish I knew.......

Old story, sorry.  Run into a bunch of old fellas when I'd get to the range in the middle of the week.  This was years ago 'n at the time, I had no use for Black Powder.  But, them ole boys were havin' fun and they were a friendly sort.  So I kinda kept my mouth shut 'n listened. 

Ain't sure of all the places they went to shoot.  They talked team events.  They talked of Cannons.  Winchester.

Anyways, the one I ran into the most, he must have lived there, was an ole boy name of Dick Foster.  Crusty ole fart.  Used to amaze me.  I'd fret, keep my hands away from my mouth while I was castin' or loadin' - fear ah lead - wouldn't smoke or drink anything until I could wash my hands.   Dick'd pull out one them plastic tubes with a powder charge in it, bite the bullet pluggin' it up with his teeth, dump the charge then start the bullet.  He'd cuss when he got his lube formula wrong cuz it didn't taste good.  Off hand, he was one of the deadliest shots I've ever seen with a long gun.  Cleaned his stuff before he left.  Just water.  Said soap would take the lube out of the barrel.

Got into CAS 'n decided I wanted to play with Black Powder.  Was at the range tryin' to figure out how that ROA I bought was supposed to work.  Just as I got goin' good I ran out of powder.

Well, hell.  That wasn't a problem.  Dick drove a beat up old Ford Escort SW.  Propped the tailgate up with a broom stick.  He rummaged around thru the mess in the back and came up with a Lee Perfect powder measure with the cap duct taped on.  Pulled the tape and poured me a generous amount so I could keep shootin'.  I ain't worried much about Black and plastic since.

These days, I charge with a Lee dipper thru a plastic funnel.  Do it that way because I enjoy it that way.  I have the time.  If I didn't, I'd dump it in a measure and start loading.

Dick died last year.  Heart attack.  Seventy somethin'.  He was a down-home, no bull ole boy.  The Darkside lost a good one when he passed.  I wonder what happened to the other ole boys he used to posse with.  I know two of the others have passed on too.  I sure hope their spirit lives on.  Gonna do my best to keep it goin'.  If I can bust a few myths to help someone else into it, I will.
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2006, 05:35:32 pm »

You might want to take a look over here.

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=1735.0

I'm not saying that if you walk across a rug in the presence of Black Powder your house is guaranteed to blow up. But I have dealt with ESD for quite some time now, and the answers may not be quite as cut and dried as you all think.
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