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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  SCORRS (Moderator: Bull Schmitt)  |  Topic: Prefer .451 or .454 round balls for Remington '58? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Prefer .451 or .454 round balls for Remington '58?  (Read 1096 times)
Oregon Bill
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« on: January 18, 2019, 11:14:41 am »


It's been a while since I have had one of these, and can't recall which size gave best accuracy. The revolver is a Pietta.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2019, 11:46:09 am »


Hi Bill,

Can't answer that with any conviction.  It's a Cap Gun.  Cap Guns respond differently, gun to gun.  However, as a general rule I have had excellent results with 451 Balls in Pietta Cap Guns.  YMMV
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hellgate
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2019, 12:20:58 pm »

A slightly larger ball will give better accuracy so go with the .454. I have found that after having owned just under 40 different 36 & 44 cal cap guns that some 44s will allow a .451 ball migrate forward under recoil and jam the cylinder. Even a .457 ball shoots fine in a cap gun that also can do well with a .451. So far I have not seen ant Italian reproduction that won't shoot .454 balls just fine.
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Oregon Bill
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2019, 01:57:43 pm »

Thanks, gentlemen!
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Blair
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2019, 04:25:01 pm »

There are a couple of factors that should be considered here,  C&B chamber mouth dia., and grove depth of the bore.
Soft lead ball/bullets will bump up a bit to ingage the grove depth when fired. The closer the fit the better the accuracy.
Most of the competitive shooters I know are within the N-SSA. And they shot at ranges from 25 to 50 yards. Unheard of ranges within the CAS/WAS distances!
Something to concider...
.44 Colt = .451 ball
.44 Remington = .454 ball
.44 Rodgers & Spencer = .457 ball.
All of these can vary from Maker to Maker without knowing the chamber mouth & grove dia's.
Just a thought on my part.
My best,
 Blair
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Oregon Bill
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2019, 06:04:51 pm »

Well, I just measured the chamber mouths and slugged the bore on the new Pietta and am pleased. Chamber mouths are a consistent .446, grooves .451 and lands .440. I think a .454 ball should be about perfect, but I did just order the Johnston and Dow conical mold from Eras Gone, so I'll have two styles of projectile to play with.
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willy
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2019, 08:07:44 pm »

Well, I just measured the chamber mouths and slugged the bore on the new Pietta and am pleased. Chamber mouths are a consistent .446, grooves .451 and lands .440. I think a .454 ball should be about perfect, but I did just order the Johnston and Dow conical mold from Eras Gone, so I'll have two styles of projectile to play with.

Doesn't matter what size ball you use,,Because after being sized to .446 in the chamber mouth they are all going to be .446 balls rattling down that barrel!.
I just recently got a brand new 1858 uberti..
First time shooting it ...It was  shooting patterns instead of groups..
I  measured the chamber mouths at .447 and the barrel grooves measured .453.
I reamed the chamber mouths  to .456.
As soon as the weather breaks I'll  find out if  reaming the chambers helped.
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Oregon Bill
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 09:15:38 am »

Willy, I see your point, but count on two factors. Even at .446 , the ball, unobturated, is .006 over land diameter, so no rattling. And being thus partially gripped, I believe obturation will take care of the rest. When I can get out and shoot it, I'll post. Meanwhile, I do believe yours is the elegant solution.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 01:53:35 pm »


There are several schools of thought.  The big problem is enough Aspirin to control the pain from multiple thoughts, as if one (thought) weren't bad enough.  I frequently get into friendly discussions with "others" whom champion the notion that bullets "bump up" after passing through restrictive cylinder throats.  I am of the opine, Once a bullet is swaged to a specific size, it (the bullet) is that size.  Even more so with Ball.

I have recovered numerous fired Balls from soft medium.  Balls I fired.  Through my Pietta.  The 451 Balls swaged down to Pietta chamber size when loaded and after being fired, the band that shows the swaging and the light land engraving, was still chamber size, so I would argue, don't count on Obturation to fill out the bore.  However ....

With Cap Guns, it doesn't seem to matter a whole lot.  Some guns will shoot really nice groups with 451 Ball, some guns will like 454 Balls and Rugers demand 457 Balls.  The only consideration for me ... personally ... is the force required to get those really oversize balls into the chambers.  I've seen lots of folks bend and break their OEM loading rods (I use an off the gun cylinder loading stand).

There is an outfit in Texas (Longhunter Shooting Supply) Whom advertise chamber reaming for their guns.  If you wish max accuracy (Bulls Eye Level), they will, for a Hundred bucks per gun, ream you chambers out to 451.  Whether that make a worthwhile difference, I can't personally say.  EXCEPT:  Past experience with Suppository Shooters would reveal a bullet sized about 001 over groove diameter will give the best accuracy and virtually no leading.  YMMV.  I have no desire to ream one pair of cylinders have those cylinders require 452-454 balls, and then forget which gun they are in.  I have the memory of a Gnat.
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Oregon Bill
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2019, 12:10:32 pm »

Coffin, I shoot my share of cast in suppository guns and concur that .001 over groove is the place to start for accuracy.
Your findings on the lack of obturation are very interesting. Could it be that obturation is one of the myths of muzzleloading, or is the lack of it in cap and ball revolvers the exception? I will be shooting commercial swaged balls -- either Speer or Hornady -- in this Pietta and if I can find a medium to shoot into in which I can recover them relatively intact, I will measure them and report.
It seems odd that Pietta would cut the chambers .446  when they could cut them .451 at no additional cost -- if indeed this conveys a measurable improvement in accuracy.
I may poke around and try to find someone who can ream to .451 at less than the cost of a C-note.
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FriscoCounty
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2019, 01:17:23 pm »

You could always try using a hollow base conical.  The old Lyman 450229 (.450" dia, 155gr)was one such.  You can still find them on various auction sites.
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2019, 01:21:43 pm »

I expect that any obduration that happens will be at the instant of the powder igniting, not when the ball has already passed through the barrel/cylinder gap, and pressure has probably already passed it's peak. And since the chambers are all .446-and balls are shaved to .446, then no obduration.
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Oregon Bill
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 10:41:54 am »

Willy, did you actually ream your own chambers or have it done? How deep does one need to ream them? -- Thinking less than all the way to the rear. Wonder if this can be done by hand.
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willy
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 12:34:02 am »

Willy, did you actually ream your own chambers or have it done? How deep does one need to ream them? -- Thinking less than all the way to the rear. Wonder if this can be done by hand.


Did it myself,,with drill press...Pretty easy ,,use lots of oil.
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hellgate
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 10:23:38 am »

Be sure you have a decent drill press vise or you will get them canted and ruin the cylinders like I did. I ended up buying about 3 new cylinders.
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"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

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greyhawk
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2019, 11:48:30 am »

Willy, did you actually ream your own chambers or have it done? How deep does one need to ream them? -- Thinking less than all the way to the rear. Wonder if this can be done by hand.

I reamed a couple of old capgunz,  the rifling was .462 x .450,  cylinders were . 451 .. ya could get em to shoot with light loads and heaps of breakfast food (filler) -- but full throttle loads nah! ....more of a splatter pattern really.

reamed both to .462 and we now load a .464 ball -- both gunz shoot nice wih full loads  - I only reamed deep enough to load a ball - one was a army colt and the front of that cylinder is pretty skinny reamed out that much  - the walker cylinder looks stout enough to ream full depth but it is a glutton for powder anyways, did not want to increase powder room any on it. 

Pedersoli makes molds to suit so there must be more than just a few of these out there. 
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Oregon Bill
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 01:33:56 pm »

Hellgate, that would very surely be my experience!    Cheesy
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2019, 12:22:48 pm »


Ah ....... Pedersoli Molds are for RIFLE balls.  BIG difference.
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greyhawk
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2019, 05:55:27 pm »

Ah ....... Pedersoli Molds are for RIFLE balls.  BIG difference.

Eh? whatca talkin about ?
they still round lead ball ! 
They makim in the full range of pistol size 451,454,457,462,464.
 PLUS rifle sizes allaway from 308 ta 535

Point I wuz tryin ta make is becuz they do make those two odd size molds .462 n .464 - that exacly fit our ancient eytalian pistolas correctly, there must be more than just a few of said overbored undercylindered cap guns out there Huh?
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willy
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2019, 07:18:01 pm »

Be sure you have a decent drill press vise or you will get them canted and ruin the cylinders like I did. I ended up buying about 3 new cylinders.

I have a vise that bolts to the drill press,,I also reduced the end of the reamer to where it would center itself in the cylinder mouth  before tightening everything down . ..Gave it a few  shots of oil and it was like drilling butter.
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greyhawk
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2019, 11:06:34 pm »

I have a vise that bolts to the drill press,,I also reduced the end of the reamer to where it would center itself in the cylinder mouth  before tightening everything down . ..Gave it a few  shots of oil and it was like drilling butter.

Did mine by hand ---not as brave as you guys - got a drill press and a mill - just figured too many things could go wrong while I was trying to cut the power !
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Oregon Bill
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2019, 11:09:18 am »

Greyhawk, whose reamer did you use? Something from Brownell's?
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2019, 12:18:06 pm »


He He He ....... Made ya Look!!   Shocked
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greyhawk
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2019, 06:04:50 pm »

Greyhawk, whose reamer did you use? Something from Brownell's?

Made it out of a High Tensile bolt - used the one with the three bars on the head - grade three or five??? They are just high tensile steel - easy to heat treat - the grade 8 bolts are alloy steel - not hard enough as they come and very tricky to heat treat. 

(I think a huge dose of dumb luck was involved in that project)
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greyhawk
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2019, 06:23:23 pm »

He He He ....... Made ya Look!!   Shocked


ARRRRRghh - Ya been penned up too long in that cold cabin - ya need a challenge ----trickin me is just tooooo easy !!!


Hey - the first Pedersoli ball mold I bought was makin lopsided balls - one half of the mold was cut .462, tother half was cut . 457
I put a 5 thou steel shim between the blocks and it fixed it - got right sized balls - complained to the dealer and he swapped me for a .464 (what I really wanted anyways) - been trying to figure out how that could happen on the assembly line ? the blocks were perfectly machined outside and the mold was a dream to use (even better with my shim in in - I didnt think that would work at all but it did)
I dunno how they machine these round molds was it just a simple glitch or did someone mess up in the packing department ?
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  SCORRS (Moderator: Bull Schmitt)  |  Topic: Prefer .451 or .454 round balls for Remington '58? « previous next »
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