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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Frontier Iron (Moderator: St. George)  |  Topic: Cimarron's new American model! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Cimarron's new American model!  (Read 1828 times)
Galloway
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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2018, 08:24:10 pm »

The 1878 new model no. 3 was chambered for 44wcf but not the American.
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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2018, 11:06:22 pm »

I believe that the #3 was originally in 44 Henry, then 44/100 (44 American), then 44 Russian.

CC Griff
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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2018, 03:32:43 am »

Cliff,

The .44 S&W "American" cartridge is not listed. So, this variation should not be called a S&W "American" revolver!
.44 Russian is the most correct cartridge caliber for this variation. .44 Special would be next, but then you could shot Russian or .44 Special ammo in it.
This suggestion on my part is only if you wish to maintain any form of Historical Authenticity
My best,
 Blair

For one, that's like saying we cant call the 1860/1866 series of rifles and the open top revolvers by their names because they ain't chambered in .44 henry. #2, .44 american is a dead round. And 3rd not every little detail should not really count as no one will mass manufacture. 44 american and the pistol is based off of an actual S&W model 3 American. Rants done, sorry about that.
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Blair
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« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2018, 08:09:13 am »

Cliff,

Your are correct. But not until the introduction of the "New Model" #3 which was in 1877, and then it will be a few years after that (about 1880) that S&W introduces the long cylinder variation which allows for chambering the longer 44-40 and 38-40.
I would suggest caution with the 44 Colt. The small rim dia. may cause issues with case extraction.
I hope this helps.
My best,
 Blair
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« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2018, 08:17:35 am »

Cliff,

Your are correct. But not until the introduction of the "New Model" #3 which was in 1877, and then it will be a few years after that (about 1880) that S&W introduces the long cylinder variation which allows for chambering the longer 44-40 and 38-40.
I would suggest caution with the 44 Colt. The small rim dia. may cause issues with case extraction.
I hope this helps.
My best,
 Blair

What other differences are there besides the longer cylinder? Sorry I'm just not that familiar with the S&W models. Should this Cimarron not have been the new model since it obviously has a longer cylinder or are there other obvious differences?
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« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2018, 10:41:31 am »

Cliff,

I would suggest getting the book, "Smith & Wesson,1857-1945" by Neal & Jinks.
This would be the simplest suggestion I could make for a subject that can be very complex. Just within the large frame #3 revolvers there are 4 major design types known as "Models" of the #3's. And each of these major models may have several improvements made to them during their production life. These improvements may also be call "Models" (with a number) by S&W at that time.
An example of this is the first model #3 American and Russian. With some internal improvements these become known as the Second Model of the first model #3 American or Russian Model.
Nomenclature starts to get really confusing with the introduction of the #3 Model 2, and the later #3 Model 3. I guess S&W was also getting confused as well because the forth variation was simply called the "New Model #3"
Again, I hope this helps.
My best,
 Blair   
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« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2018, 12:21:41 pm »

In my opinion, the most obvious visual differences in the various major models of #3 S&W is in the length of the extractor rod housings beneath the barrel group. The older models have very long housings compared to the newer ones such as the "New Model #3's", which are almost nonexistent. Improvements in extractor design of the extractor, helps to lighten this barrel group.
Next would be in the shape of the grip portion of the frame group. These variations are something that I believe most people notice first. Grip shape comes about due to the large numbers of revolvers being orders from the Russian Gov.
Many other less obvious changes exist. The book on S&W, 1857-1945 will help point these changes out and offer explanations as to why they were used.
My best,
 Blair
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« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2018, 06:48:39 pm »


Picky .... Picky .... PICKY!!  Why is it??  What you might ask.  Well, it seems a lot of folks spend an inordinate amount of time championing their respective wish list of "wants" for reproductions of obsolete guns.  A manufacturer such as Uberti takes the challenge and brings out a Smithy and Wesson (Oil??) Schofield and suddenly all those whom whined start to pick it apart.

Here we are, new S&W #3, what happens??  Pick it apart.  Find every flaw from the Original.  Way back, when the reproduction of the Schofield appeared the glitterati screamed because it wasn't available in 45 Colt.  What??  The original was never chambered in .45 Colt but now we had to have a 45 Colt and guess what, we got it and it won't run with BP unless carefully massaged (If then).  Be careful what you ask for.

So instead of finding every little flaw in the new offering, get out there and BUY ONE so Uberti will continue to make them.  I personally want a pair to go with my 1866 .44 Russian Trapper.  Of course, Mine will be set up for 44 Russian.
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« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2018, 07:54:00 pm »

Word ! 
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« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2018, 08:44:28 pm »

Thanks for the info
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« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2018, 01:23:55 am »

.44 russian or special  is what I'm thinking if or when I ever get one,  I like the american repro. All the other model 3 repros were out by time I get into these replicas, so having a new one come out is exciting to me.
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« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2018, 09:58:25 am »


Now I have a question.  A quandary if you will.  Recently, I read a short thread about shooting BP thru a .45 Colt Uberti Schofield.  I believe we all know, it don't work.  Maybe.

Because Uberti removed most all of the Schofield Gas Ring when they extended the cylinder to accommodate 45 Colt, the gun now fouls terribly.  Even Mine (I had one).  But the short thread I ran into, related using Cowboy 45 Special cases, 150Gr EPP UG bullets and Pearl Lube.  The author related being able to shoot his Schofield in .45 Colt with no more hassle than any other suppository shooter.  I no longer have a Schofield with which to investigate.  Also, the EPP UG 45 carries a boat load of any lube.

I do have a LARGE "WHY" but no empirical data.  I "think" his success may have been because the initial blast of gun gas exiting the cartridge was well behind  the cylinder face and more "shaped" for entry into the barrel breach.  Da guy said it works.  That would indicate to me, the same may well also be true for a .44 Special Uberti with the "new build" long cylinder.  Switching to 44 Russian cases could well make the Uberti Schofield more civilized rather than running that heathen fad stuff.

Need someone with the appropriate hardware to try and then report back.  Oh, forgot.  What's "Pearl Lube?"
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« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2018, 12:06:02 pm »

Picky .... Picky .... PICKY!!  Why is it??  What you might ask.  Well, it seems a lot of folks spend an inordinate amount of time championing their respective wish list of "wants" for reproductions of obsolete guns.  A manufacturer such as Uberti takes the challenge and brings out a Smithy and Wesson (Oil??) Schofield and suddenly all those whom whined start to pick it apart.

Here we are, new S&W #3, what happens??  Pick it apart.  Find every flaw from the Original.  Way back, when the reproduction of the Schofield appeared the glitterati screamed because it wasn't available in 45 Colt.  What??  The original was never chambered in .45 Colt but now we had to have a 45 Colt and guess what, we got it and it won't run with BP unless carefully massaged (If then).  Be careful what you ask for.

So instead of finding every little flaw in the new offering, get out there and BUY ONE so Uberti will continue to make them.  I personally want a pair to go with my 1866 .44 Russian Trapper.  Of course, Mine will be set up for 44 Russian.

Amen my friend
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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2018, 12:59:34 pm »

Coffinmaker,

No new "Smithy and Wesson (oil??)"? Do you have access to an Original #3 S&W for comparison? (even if you barrow these for your own comparison?)
I think I could address your "quandary" if you could. But, it will have to be in a situation where you can see what I am suggesting for yourself.
My best,
 Blair
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Blair Taylor
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« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2018, 05:03:21 pm »

Coffinmaker, you da man! I can remember when I bought the Navy Arms Uberti Schofield back when it came out, got it in 45 Colt and had a blast with it. Then the 45 Schofield cases came on the scene and I had even more fun with it, knowing I was shooting the correct ammo (or as close as I was going to get because of BP fouling) out of it. Now it has a stable mate, an original S&W 2nd model that was cut down to around 4 1/2"s or so sometime in the past. And now I know just what the BP Schofield can do and how much fun it is (out of a Smith, been using them for years in old Colts).
Last year I stumbled onto a good deal for a cut down 2nd model American and have been trying to gather up everything I need to fire it. Now that I've got everything I'll take some time this winter and get a batch of 44 American loaded up for the spring (can't understand why the indoor range people object to all that sulfurous smoke). And now, after all the years of asking for it, Cimarron answers our prayers and announces an American replica (finally Uberti agreed with Mike). Can't think of a better retirement present the kids can all chip in together on for the old man (course I've got to survive till retirement yet).
I know that the lawyers have gotten involved and can't wait to see just how they may have corrupted the old girl, but I'll still love her when she finally arrives on the scene. Why, because I asked for her, all the way back to Val Forgett II, and tho it's taken many years and many extra hands, I'm just grateful to realize that someone is listening to us. And minor variations from the original and all, I still try to support those that support and work for us.

As I said before, 8"s of barrel and in 44 Russian...close enough for me. And you won't hear any complaints.
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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2018, 06:07:34 pm »

Since the Coffinmaker , Pathfinder and Will ( and my own self ) agree ...

I moved the forth coming American to # 1 on my want list ...


If the Planets line up just so it will join these two.... and in 44 Spec. / Russian


* Russian_zpssu9wmkfc.jpg (82.82 KB, 512x291 - viewed 13 times.)

* S&W Pair.jpg (179.61 KB, 701x394 - viewed 14 times.)

* DSC00827.JPG (99.84 KB, 640x480 - viewed 13 times.)
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« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2018, 06:33:02 pm »

Now I have a question.  A quandary if you will.  Recently, I read a short thread about shooting BP thru a .45 Colt Uberti Schofield.  I believe we all know, it don't work.  Maybe.

Because Uberti removed most all of the Schofield Gas Ring when they extended the cylinder to accommodate 45 Colt, the gun now fouls terribly.  Even Mine (I had one).  But the short thread I ran into, related using Cowboy 45 Special cases, 150Gr EPP UG bullets and Pearl Lube.  The author related being able to shoot his Schofield in .45 Colt with no more hassle than any other suppository shooter.  I no longer have a Schofield with which to investigate.  Also, the EPP UG 45 carries a boat load of any lube.

I do have a LARGE "WHY" but no empirical data.  I "think" his success may have been because the initial blast of gun gas exiting the cartridge was well behind  the cylinder face and more "shaped" for entry into the barrel breach.  Da guy said it works.  That would indicate to me, the same may well also be true for a .44 Special Uberti with the "new build" long cylinder.  Switching to 44 Russian cases could well make the Uberti Schofield more civilized rather than running that heathen fad stuff.

Need someone with the appropriate hardware to try and then report back.  Oh, forgot.  What's "Pearl Lube?"

Some guns will, some won't. It is because the original Smith and Wessons have a much longer bushing extending in front of the cylinder so nothing blows in around the pin. I think as you mentioned it partly has much to do with just "how much" black powder and fouling you are throwing at it affects your success rate along with the lube itself.

A friend who is on this board shoots his with 45 Schofield loads and it runs fine with normal grease and big lubes. Maybe he will report on it if he sees this. I know another fella that tried it in 44-40 uberti schofield and it locked up tight after a few rounds but I don't know what bullets he was using but I'm sure bore butter on the pin because he is a fan of that.
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« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2018, 08:11:22 am »

I agree with you on all counts Books.  Would love one in 44-40 and would totally put that on hold to buy a model 2 in 32 cf. 
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« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2018, 01:33:59 pm »


Now for some real BLASPHEMY.  Were I certain of success with BP and Subs in a .45 Colt Uberti Schofield.  Did I say CERTAIN!!!  I'd buy a pair of Uberti .45s with the Three and a Half inch barrels.  Yepper I would.  Then I'd ship em off to TK precision and have them set up for Moon Clips.  Then I'd load them in accordance with the suggested success formula (.45 ACP case has the same internal capacity as the C45S and is the same OAL at the case mouth), 150Gr EPP UG 45 with a boat load of nice soft lube and let em rip.  Yessir I would.

Now ....... I know the purists are taring their collective fur out by the roots at the mere mention of Moon Clips in a Schofield but just think of the consternation you'd raise at your typical CAS match.  Some of those SASS Thread Counters would suffer immediate apoplexy the second the Schofield ejected the Moonie.  Oh what FUN!! 

Oh, and if necessary, the TK Moon Mod does leave a shelf for the case rim should one want to run C45S rather than ACPs in the Moonies.
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« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2018, 04:09:33 pm »

I really don't care what a firearm might be chambered in by todays repro's. . 44 rim fire is simply not a practical choice for modern shooters. So if one has a choice, why not go with what the originals had - if that were available. .44 Russian or .44 Special are!

Now, this subject is based on the "American" or "Russian" revolver. Not the Schofield type revolver!
However, One can cut the barrel of a Schofield off to a 3 and 1/2" barrel because the extractor rod housing is shorter on the Schofield than on the earlier Models.
I also have no problem with any barrel length. Providing the design allows for the modification. Basing this type of modification off of an original example would also be nice. That isn't going to happen here!
My best,
 Blair 
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God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
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« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2018, 04:27:04 pm »

Well Coffinmaker, I like the idea of opening a Schof and popping out a moon clip.  Yes, it would raise some eyebrows!!

I know we're getting a ways off topic here but back in the dark ages (when men were men and targets were small)  our monthly match at the Pala Reservation in So. Cal. typically had a stage that required a handgun reload.  Yours truly was an early adopter of Navy Arms Schofields and on those reload stages I, being a smart ass, would shout at my posse mates and ask them to watch carefully as my breaktop ejected its empties skyward five at a time.  Great fun it was.  I never understood the fascination with poking at an ejector rod but, to each his own, eh?
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John William McCandles
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« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2018, 05:01:27 pm »

As Cliff stated in a previous post, I can run a full match with my Uberti Schofield in .45. I use .45 Schofield cases with a 200 grain big lube over Goex FFg powder. It is an older Navy Arms import with no modifications. When I bought it used off Gun Broker Bushwhacker and I ran 60 rounds of the same load through it with no trouble.
Maybe I'm just lucky or it could be my setup on a stock pistol.
As a matter of fact I won the 2 gun black powder duelist category at the 2018 NCOWs National shoot with it.
RD Strain also shoots his Uberti Russian in .44 Russian running black powder.

JW.
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