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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Shotguns  |  Topic: Cimarron 1878 or CZ for SASS 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Cimarron 1878 or CZ for SASS  (Read 1777 times)
Douglas Sheridan
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« on: October 08, 2018, 10:29:48 pm »


Looking at a new SG.  Currently have a CZ Ringneck in 20G with 28" barrels.  Looking at either the Cimarron 1878 or the CZ Hammered Coach.  About $400 difference between them  I know CZ makes some very nice stuff for the cost, but I don't believe it is particularly historically representative of anything.  Any thoughts on which way you'd go, and why?
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Bibbyman
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 07:20:13 am »

I have a CZ-USA Hammer Coach Gun 12 gauge and like it fine.  Here is a video I made testing hulls showing me using it.

https://youtu.be/a-6lmig9eMQ

I also have two original Colt 1878s - one in 10 and the other in 12 gauge.  Also, a Cemerron 1878 with 26" barrels I have not shot. All are much heavier than the CZ-USA Hammer Coach Gun.

Think hard on your choice of a 20 gauge for CAS.  Most find them an all around lesser choice to the 12 gauge. 
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Douglas Sheridan
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 07:36:26 am »

Definitely planning to go 12. The 20 is just what Iíve had for doves and pheasant before I got into this so itís what Iíve been using.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 08:39:23 pm »

Jrice,

I don't know what End Game your looking for.  We play a Game.  In this game there are those whom chase Historical Accuracy.  That is some instances is like chasing Smoke.  If you actually look at the number if makers, their styles, you'll find EVERYTHING made today has been previously done by the 19th century Gunmakers.  So, perhaps your being guided by your own interpretation.  Most of the Shotguns represented by the era were Damascus barreled.  The majority of those guns ARE NOT safe to shoot today.  So for the most part, your going to be limited to mid 20th century and later guns, with fluid steel barrels.

Now, if you back off 6 feet or so, you'll find most all the Hammer doubles available today show 19th century parentage.  The only real deviation is probably the specific shape of Butt Stock and Grip.  Most of those are also copies of what was done before.  There really isn't much to choose from.  The Cimarron offering in 12Ga as a replica of the Colt 1878 is about as close as your going to get.  Made in China, built hell for stout but a little rough on the inside.  Very reliable.  Quite heavy and soak up a lot of recoil.  Best of luck in your quest.


PS:  The CZ is quite well made.  Robust.  With the exception of the Pistol Grip Butt Stock, looks just like the 19th Century guns.
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Douglas Sheridan
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 07:16:05 pm »

The historical side appeals to me more, and yes the biggest issue with the CZ to me is just the stock shape.  I will probably go with whichever of the 2 I can get my hands on, and if it's the CZ I can always make a new stock with one of the blanks I have sitting here.
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Abilene
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 10:49:07 pm »

I have both.  The '78 is the pre-Cimarron TTN, and the Turkish gun is a Liberty II, imported by KBI about 15 or so years ago.  I am told it is the same gun as the CZ.  The '78 just "looks" old west and points very well for me.  The Liberty II is a prettier gun but has less drop to the stock and doesn't point as well for me for CAS.  YMMV.
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 02:10:22 am »

I have one of the pre-Cimarron  ,Walt Johnson TTn 's as well and it has been tank tough for 15 years.


I had formally owned a pre- Beretta Stoeger & a Savage Fox Model B.   ( no hammers ) for CAS, but I wanted external hammers.

The Russians offered a the Baikal MP220F at the time, and Rossi had a hammer gun ( discontinued years earlier )

The Turkish guns at the time were off and on imported , by several , EMF , ADCO , seemed they'd get a batch then quit and someone else would try them with different name EMF Liberty , Liberty II , ADCO , Charles Daly.
The main issue seems guns were imported,  but it was said no parts for repair if needed  Undecided

Baikal also offered a external cocking lever gun that, sorta looked like hammers ( but not acceptable to me ).


So with those options in 2002-3 .... I ordered a TTn from Walt Johnson. In which he had installed lighter hammer springs ( and sent along the OEM springs as parts
  It has served me all these years and to only modification was to dull the sharp little accent spurs on the hammers.

Based on my experience with it, it was the right gun and I'd do it again.    

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Bibbyman
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 03:05:05 am »



Here are my Colt 1878s.  Front is Colt 10 gauge grade 3, center is a Cimerron 1878, behind is my Colt 1878 12 gauge field grade,



Here are the locks - original Colt above Cimarron 1887.  



Here is the Colt 12 gauge and Cimarron 12 side by side.  The original Colt has new wood and the pull length is shorter than normal.

Here is a link to a video of me shooting the original Colt 1878 10 gauge.  It was a project gun that I finished up.

https://youtu.be/nJOj8UxQvks
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Jack Straw
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 03:15:10 pm »

If you like nicely finished firearms the CZ is a good choice.   The Cimarron/TTN guns vary from kind of crude to horrible.  Note that I'm not necessarily commenting on the functionality of the two guns.   I've had a good TTN and a worthless one.   

It comes down to personal taste.  The CZ is likely less "authentic" but it sure is pretty.
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Bibbyman
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 04:26:55 pm »

If you like nicely finished firearms the CZ is a good choice.   The Cimarron/TTN guns vary from kind of crude to horrible.  Note that I'm not necessarily commenting on the functionality of the two guns.   I've had a good TTN and a worthless one.   

It comes down to personal taste.  The CZ is likely less "authentic" but it sure is pretty.

The finish on a Cimarron 1887 looks like some phosphorus coating.  I only bought the one I pictured above because it had very nice real  walnut wood and the action is very nice. In fact,  the hammer springs are lighter than than the ones on my two original Colts. 

We have several in the two clubs we shoot at that have the TTN and all have been worked on to get them to open and close and lighten the springs.  They have handled the sample I have and comment that it's much better than how their TTNs came out of the box.  The wood on their guns don't look like walnut.

That said,  the CZ-USA Hammer Coach Gun that I have is by far much more beautiful gun with the color case hardened parts and engraving and over all quality.    It's lighter too. 
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Jack Straw
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 05:31:02 pm »

After dithering for some time I'll be picking up a new CZ Coach Gun in a couple of days.   I've wanted one for years but always ended up with something else.   25 years ago I used a Rossi hammergun and just loved it but they are kinda thin on the ground these days.  I have a very nice new Tedna-Zenith hammerless model but I just like those mule ears.  After a brief shakedown I'll drive the CZ over to Johnny Meadows for his basic action job.   I'm hoping this will be the last double I buy.  

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Douglas Sheridan
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 11:48:37 pm »

Located a really good deal on an unused CZ from a guy that is retiring out of the game.  This was a spare he picked up and just kept in the safe.
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