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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Powder Room - CAS reloading (Moderator: Professor Marvel)  |  Topic: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?  (Read 1495 times)
Hobble Creek Al
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« on: April 06, 2018, 09:09:44 am »


I've been a Starline brass shooter for years.  When running minimum 5.5 Trail Boss with 200 gr RNFP, dirty brass seems to be a constant.  Any other 45 Colt brands better at sealing the chamber?

Thanks
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Four Eyes Henry
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 09:32:27 am »

CBC
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 02:12:42 pm »

HO Kay!!  I'll irritate some, but there are only two ways to really mitigate or eliminate Blow-By with 45 Colt Brass.  Method number one is to start with 44-40 brass, fire form to straight wall (New Starline 44-40 is straight) and load as 45.  No Blow-By.  Method number two is to anneal your brass.  With annealed brass .... no blow-by.

Had run errand

PS:  45 Colt brass is manufactured too thick to expand to seal the chamber (you already know that).  Some will say you have to go to cannon balls loaded to the max and double your cost forever.  Horse Pucky.  I like starting with new Starline 44-40 brass, carefully run it thru my 45 Colt expander die, then load and crimp as a 45.  Until it's fired the first time, the round looks really goofy.  Works a treat.

I was not in the past, a fan of annealing.  Thought it a huge waste of time and energy.  Then, a friend shamed me into trying it.  Well .... by golly it works.  Annealing served to save a special custom 44 Trapper I built and allows me to shoot my Henry's with 45 Schofield cases without Blow-By.  It's boring, but well worth the effort.  A BIG thank you to OD#3 for pushing me over the edge.  It is flat, ya know!!!
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Hobble Creek Al
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 04:24:09 pm »

Coffinmaker,

Your answer really intrigues me.  I can get Starline 44-40, using my Cabelas points. 

Your comment

"fire form to straight wall (New Starline 44-40 is straight) and load as 45.", particularly the part within the ( ) confused me.  Are you saying the "New Starline 44-40 is straight"?  Meaning it doesn't have a shoulder, tapering down in diameter to the neck?

Thanks,

Alan
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 08:08:43 pm »

Hobbie,

That is correct.  NEW Starline 44-40 is, well it's not really "straight" as it tapered a little.  However, NEW Starline brass has no shoulder.  Just a slight taper to the case.  A nice easy trip thru the Dillon Expander/Beller/Powder drop die and presto, it's ready to seat a 45 bullet.  I personally prefer a 452 for my rifles and pistols. 

When fired, the strange looking round as first loaded, fills right out and becomes a straight walled 45 case.  Since I start with new brass, I have yet to have a case split.  I use anywhere from 160Gr bullets to 200Gr bullets, crimped firmly in the crimp groove and have NO Blow-By.  I shoot an entire match and the Carrier Block/Mortice are as clean as a 44-40 rifle.  At the end of a match I just chamber a fired round and run a couple of wet patches (PAM), a dry patch, an Oil patch and I'm done.
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Hobble Creek Al
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 12:22:30 am »

Thank you CM.  Using my Cabelas points, I ordered a bag of Starline 44-40 brass and a 500 count box of Oregon Trail Laser Cast 200 gr RNFP in 452".  Got my XL650 just waiting for the two to show up, hopefully next week.

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Hobble Creek Al
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 07:08:18 pm »

Brass arrived. 

1. Should I fire form in the Uberti 1873 or the SASS Vaqueros or does it matter?

2. I'm running 5.5 Trailboss and 200 gr RNFP.  Use that load or up the charge to help the cases expand fully?

3. Any issues fire forming during a match?

Thanks CM,

Alan
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 07:25:21 pm »


Uberti is known for GENEROUS chambers.  Blow-By in your rifle is WAY more of a problem then your handguns.  Therefore, I'd shoot em through your rifle.  I'd shoot the same load you are currently shooting and see the result with that load.

The only issue you may encounter firing them during a match is the funny look your going to get from the folks at the loading table  Roll Eyes
There gonna think you've lost it with those funny lookin rounds.
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Hobble Creek Al
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 07:31:33 pm »

Quickly loaded up 3 on the Dillon 650 without a hitch.  Length is within .010" as is the rim diameter.    They look pretty normal, loaded.  During the loading process..... Shocked
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2018, 10:37:12 am »

You don't have to fireform the brasss. They are perfectly shootable as they come. When fired, they will conform to the chamber they were fired in. After the first shot resize them for the tightest chamber. If you insist on fireforming, don't just sit at the bench! Get up on your hind legs and get some beneficial practise done.

FWIW, my OMV's have very tight chambers , but they are earlier manufacture and the Ruger chambering may have changed somewhat.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2018, 01:24:04 pm »

Hi Sir Charles   Cheesy

I probably miss-used the term "Fire Form."  The 44-40 brass will form to the 45 chamber it's fired in.  And since it forms to the chamber as it is fired, Fire Forming seems the best description.

Ruger OMV have /had nice snug chambers.  Unfortunately, Ruger OMV also had way undersize cylinder throats as well.  99.9% of the Rugers I had come thru the shop had to have the throats reamed.  45s were the worst but 357s were problematic as well.  From a professional standpoint, Ruger are built hell for stout but some dimensions were crap.  From a personal standpoint, I've never liked Ruger.
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Hobble Creek Al
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 07:35:05 pm »

They worked great.  I shot my first ever, CAS match yesterday and used the 44-40 brass loads for the match.  I did use them in the Taylor/Uberti Comanchero I bought without a single hiccup.  I'd post pics of the brass, before and after but since cascity doesn't allow me to use postimages.org, I can't.  They still look a little "tweaked" after firing/tumbling but as long as they work....

Thank you again, CM.

Alan
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major
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2018, 08:33:52 pm »

why can't we use postimages on Cascity?
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Terry
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Hobble Creek Al
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 12:33:23 am »

unfired 44-40 on the left.  Fired 44-40 in the middle.  45 Colt on the right.

<a href="https://postimg.cc/image/lldamcq9r/" target="_blank"><img src="https://s19.postimg.cc/ut5j31xc3/44-40_fired_45_Colt.jpg" alt="44-40_fired_45_Colt"/></a>
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 12:28:12 pm »


LOVE IT when a plan COMES TOGETHER (Stolen Famous TV Line)   Grin

The cases will continue to fill out as you use them.  Mine fill out first time 'cause I'm shooting a good load of APP.  BOOMBA  Shocked
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Roscoe
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2018, 12:29:50 pm »

This idea of using 44-40 Starline for 45 Colt seems crazy to me. I have 500 new Starline 44-40 cases. I can't say when they were made, but they were bought direct within the last couple years. Not only are they NOT straight wall, but the case mouths are very thin and easy to ruin when a press doesn't index perfectly, aligning the die. Expanding that thin mouth to 45 Colt dimensions is just going to create a weaker case, if not a split.

A couple thoughts about getting a better fit of a real 45 Colt case to chamber...sizing new brass can be counterproductive, causing galling on the expander. If you check them in a gauge, I think you will find they drop just fine.

RCBS Cowboy dies treat everything a bit larger in diameter, specifically for lead bullets. That will give less working of the brass between fire-formed and sized. The Hornady Cowboy set does not do that, consisting of only a larger expander, resulting in galling.
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Hobble Creek Al
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2018, 08:11:57 pm »

Are you able to click on the link and see the pics?
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Roscoe
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2018, 09:07:43 pm »

Are you able to click on the link and see the pics?
Yes, I see the pic. My new brass doesn't look like that, and fired brass (from a 44-40) doesn't either. The cases are clearly necked.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2018, 12:52:19 pm »

Hi Roscoe,

Allow me to explain.  First your 44-40 brass may well show a light "neck."  44-40 Starline produced now, is not "necked."  New 44-40 is not exactly straight as it does have a slight taper.  Historically ALL new brass needs to be resized.  Starline even provide a disclaimer their new manufactured brass should be resized before use.
Yes, 44-40 has a thin case mouth.  That is the point as it's also very ductile.  You must take some care when running 44-40 thru the 45 expander/powder drop.  Brass, unless contaminated by not being properly cleaned CANNOT gall STEEL.  We are not necessarily talking about RCBS dies.  I haven't used RCBS dies in years.  I run Dillon dies.

There is no truly effective way to eliminate blow-by in new, untreated 45 Colt cases.  Out of the box 45 Colt cases DO NOT obturate to fill a chamber.  The brass is too thick and inflexible.  The only truly effective way to mitigate or eliminate blow-by from a 45 Colt case is to Anneal it.  What a 45 Colt case does in a case gauge before loading and firing is immaterial.  Current production rifles have overly generous chambers that often completely exceed SAMMI specs for a 45 Colt chamber. 

Now, here is the bottom line.  While it may seem Looney to you (and some others), it works.  In fact it works a treat.  Now, just how may loadings a person will get from 44-40 formed to 45, I don't know.  The thin soft mouth of the 44-40 (annealed at starline during the manufacturing process) can and does obturate (expand) to seal 45 chambers.  Actually, the entire case will expand with a little more chamber pressure.  Don't knock it till ya try it  Grin
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Roscoe
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« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2018, 06:43:19 pm »

Hi Roscoe,

Allow me to explain.  First your 44-40 brass may well show a light "neck."  44-40 Starline produced now, is not "necked."  New 44-40 is not exactly straight as it does have a slight taper.  Historically ALL new brass needs to be resized.  Starline even provide a disclaimer their new manufactured brass should be resized before use.
Yes, 44-40 has a thin case mouth.  That is the point as it's also very ductile.  You must take some care when running 44-40 thru the 45 expander/powder drop.  Brass, unless contaminated by not being properly cleaned CANNOT gall STEEL.  We are not necessarily talking about RCBS dies.  I haven't used RCBS dies in years.  I run Dillon dies.

There is no truly effective way to eliminate blow-by in new, untreated 45 Colt cases.  Out of the box 45 Colt cases DO NOT obturate to fill a chamber.  The brass is too thick and inflexible.  The only truly effective way to mitigate or eliminate blow-by from a 45 Colt case is to Anneal it.  What a 45 Colt case does in a case gauge before loading and firing is immaterial.  Current production rifles have overly generous chambers that often completely exceed SAMMI specs for a 45 Colt chamber. 

Now, here is the bottom line.  While it may seem Looney to you (and some others), it works.  In fact it works a treat.  Now, just how may loadings a person will get from 44-40 formed to 45, I don't know.  The thin soft mouth of the 44-40 (annealed at starline during the manufacturing process) can and does obturate (expand) to seal 45 chambers.  Actually, the entire case will expand with a little more chamber pressure.  Don't knock it till ya try it  Grin
You might not want to call it galling, but the cases will stick on the expander enough so the case head will tear out of the shellholder if you try hard enough. I was taught that as "galling". Blame my source.

The die brand is not to be dismissed, because I thought it was relevant.

Actually, forgoing sizing on new brass that passes a gauge is a good idea, because it works and helps with the "galling". Something else not so easily dismissed until tried with poor results.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2018, 07:58:31 pm »

Hey Roscoe,

Perhaps we are talking about different sets of circumstances.  Personally, in 45 years of reloading, I have never had a straight wall pistol case stick badly enough to pull out of the shell holder.  Regardless of what caliber I was loading. 

I have had bottle neck rifle cases such as 7mm Magnum, 300 Win Mag, etc grab an expander ball tight enough to do some really strange things.  But not straight wall pistol cases.

I can't really find fault with your position as I can't watch what you are doing.  Good luck with your new press.
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major
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« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2018, 08:43:05 pm »

If blow by is a really bad problem for you, you might want to chang your caliber to 44-40 and this should solve a big part of the problem.  Of course it also could cause another problem in that you will need to buy more guns.  Did I say that was a problem??
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Terry
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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a handsome, and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming...."WOW!... What a ride!"
Hobble Creek Al
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2018, 07:23:05 am »

Coffinmaker,

New issue.  When running 1x fired Starline 44-40 brass through the Dillon 650, the expander opens the neck enough the bullets "drop" too far down into the case.  Are you having to change expander depth to accommodate the 44-40 brass?

HCA
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2018, 10:03:39 am »

I adjust the LEE neck expander die, with a .44Rem Mag expander, and use it as an "M" dies so I can just insert my cast bullets by hand. No crushing cases and less working of the brass at the neck.

For this application, how about using the inside neck expander to just allow the base of the bullet to enter the neck and use the next die to fully seat the bullet?
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Bunk
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2018, 10:30:39 am »

Coffinmaker is absolutely correct. For my use I slightly bell the case mouth with a .44 special neck expanding die then go to the 550B and prime and shape the neck all in one fell swoop.
My lifter stays clean, the brass does look strange before firing, but runs through my’66 Yellow Boy slick as a mashed grape on a terrazzo floor.
Whether shooting Holy Black, APP, or that fad nitro stuff (ew) it, as a gun plumber we all know says, works a treat.
One caveat YMMV
respectfully
Bunk
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