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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Powder Room - CAS reloading (Moderator: Professor Marvel)  |  Topic: 44-40 H110 or Lil Gun 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 44-40 H110 or Lil Gun  (Read 2473 times)
Jrice
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« on: February 06, 2018, 08:02:02 pm »


Was messing around with quickload, and it looks like some pretty stiff loads for the 44-40 can be put together with either of the above listed powders and give some decent load densities while keeping pressures well within reason.  Anyone used either of these with a 200gr lead?
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Roscoe
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2018, 09:30:51 pm »

Gonna guess that those loads are for jacketed bullets, which are typically .429 rather than .427. Some guns would not be suitable. H110 is not usually put behind a lead bullet except maybe a gas check.
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David Battersby
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Smokeless powder is a passing fad .


« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2018, 09:54:39 pm »

First and foremost : What firearm will these loads be fired in?
An 1892 Winchester or 1894 Marlin will probably be okay. A Colt single action revolver (or copy), an 1873 Winchester (or copy) would most likely receive some damage from the "hot" loads.
 I have some load data for 44wcf 1892 only loads and neither of the mentioned powders are listed.  They are both spherical powders that are designed to burn correctly at pressures that could disassemble some firearms using only the pull of the trigger.


Spontaneous omni-directional disassembly !
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Jrice
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2018, 12:21:48 am »

This would be with a .427 200gr lead.

13500 PSI

1150 out of a 7.5" barrel

1600 from 24"

With either of these powders the pressure stays relatively low, but due to being a relatively slow powder the pressure is held for a longer period of time, allowing more energy to be transferred to the bullet.
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2018, 10:25:04 am »

.44-40 brass is thinner, and will fail quickly if you try to make it into a .44Mag. If you want to look it up, compare 4227 in the maggie and the .44wcf

Hint; Its about a 22/17 ratio.
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2018, 09:58:45 am »

I made a failed attempt at using slow burning powders in starting load weights in the 45 Colt. I was experimenting with 2400 and got extreme velocity spreads (as much as 100 fps for 5 shots) and poor accuracy.

Were I to try such a thing again it would be with 4227 as I've seen data that claims even starting loads give excellent accuracy. Don't know if this has any application in the 44 WCF but thought I would pass it on anyway.

Dave
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greyhawk
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2018, 12:08:10 pm »

I made a failed attempt at using slow burning powders in starting load weights in the 45 Colt. I was experimenting with 2400 and got extreme velocity spreads (as much as 100 fps for 5 shots) and poor accuracy.

Were I to try such a think again it would be with 4227 as I've seen data that claims even starting loads give excellent accuracy. Don't know if this has any application in the 44 WCF but thought I would pass it on anyway.

Dave

Have not used it in 44/40 but 4227 works nice in 32/20 and 25/20 -
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wildman1
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2018, 01:10:11 pm »

If you use 4227 you should make sure you have a good crimp or the powder will not all burn.
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2018, 06:16:35 pm »

If you use 4227 you should make sure you have a good crimp or the powder will not all burn.
wM1


Never noticed a problem ! -- mine is old IMR4227 -- yeah I crimp em good - have a problem wid boolits disappearin into case in magazine if I dont ...................
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2018, 06:32:11 pm »

I've used a bunch of H110 and LIL GUN in the big guns, 44 mag, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh, 454, 460, 500 S&W, etc. Great slow burning powders that produce lots of velocity and that many times are compressed loads and like a strong crimp and always with jacketed bullets.

Just not the type of application that would sit well with me in a 44-40.

Never understood that in todays world with all of our options, why hot rod them, people do that with 45 colt and I'm like why not just buy a 454, that's what it is a magnum 45 colt made for the pressures.

Besides a 44wcf packed full of 3f powder is a plenty anyway in any gun that would be chambered for it.
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 08:30:30 pm »

Was messing around with quickload, and it looks like some pretty stiff loads for the 44-40 can be put together with either of the above listed powders and give some decent load densities while keeping pressures well within reason.  Anyone used either of these with a 200gr lead?

 Search out posts by W44WCF. He's done an incredible amount of testing in the 44-40. He recommends RL-7 because you can't cram enough in the case to exceed SAAMI pressures, but it will provide top velocities in long rifle barrels.

  A couple of years ago I did quite a bit of testing in my 1866 Uberti 44-40, I'll fetch the data and see if any of it might be useful to you. This is the only bullet I've cast/used. I size it .430" for my 1866, whose barrel has a .429" groove diameter.

  

   Cliff Fendley is right, a case full of 3F will give you pretty good velocities. I used Swiss 3F and a cast 220 gr. RNFP and had one load ( 2.5 cc) that averaged 1399 fps.

  I stick with Unique because it's common and will give velocities in the 1300 fps range with my 220 gr. cast bullet. 200 yd. accuracy is plenty good for deer size game.

  I don't know if you're assembling hunting loads or not, but I've been messing around with cast bullets vs. deer and hogs for a few years now, and I've found that it doesn't take a lot of velocity for them to sail through animals in the 150-200 lb. range. Even at handgun velocities (950-1000 fps) the bullets just whiz on through. So at 1200-1300 fps, no reasonable size head of game is going to make it if shot through the lungs with a 44-40.

 CHT
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Jrice
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 11:42:30 pm »

I'd prefer to use 3F, just an issue with conveniently getting it on a regular basis.  Most of the load data I find is for mouse fart loads that don't even come close to the BP loads.  I'm not particularly a fan of powders that give below 80% load density, as I've seen them give generally poor consistency.  Plus with the high densities you can be sure you will never have a double charge.
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 01:30:32 am »

I'd prefer to use 3F, just an issue with conveniently getting it on a regular basis.  Most of the load data I find is for mouse fart loads that don't even come close to the BP loads.  I'm not particularly a fan of powders that give below 80% load density, as I've seen them give generally poor consistency.  Plus with the high densities you can be sure you will never have a double charge.


 I had nothing but good luck (accuracy) with Unique, Power Pistol and Herco.

 200 yds.

 (The cluster at the bottom of the black.)
 


 

 Even 300 yds. wasn't too bad, considering I had to shoot prone with only the forend supported.

 

  CHT
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 09:29:16 am »

I'd prefer to use 3F, just an issue with conveniently getting it on a regular basis.  Most of the load data I find is for mouse fart loads that don't even come close to the BP loads.  I'm not particularly a fan of powders that give below 80% load density, as I've seen them give generally poor consistency.  Plus with the high densities you can be sure you will never have a double charge.


44-40 is one of those old cartridges designed for black powder, huge volume but not necessarily designed for a lot of pressure. That is why smokeless powder load densities are so commonly low with these old cartridges, more modern powders like trail boss were designed to help fill those cases without making a magnum out of it.
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Bryan Austin
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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 05:53:57 pm »

For all the nay sayers, dudes, weekend range worriers and city slickers.... the loads are right there in the reloading manual!!
Lyman's #47 and #49 as well as a tad bit right there on Lee's 44-40 3 die set pamphlet.

Aside from CAS.....

Quite a few folks hunt with this great Cartridge. However, many shooters may not understand the cartridge's full potential although factory loads are perfectly capable of harvesting game animals...namely the Whitetail. For over 144 years, this cartridge continues to score food for the table as I did again last year!

Trying to replicate History...
It is very hard to "replicate" the original charge of black powder along with the original (427098) type lead bullet and maintain original ballistics and stay below max chamber pressures. Those early original loads catapulted a lead projectile downrange at 1,245fps and chamber pressures stayed below 13,000cup/11,000psi (SAAMI), 15,000cup/15,954psi (CIP). The bullets were lubricated well enough to lob 30 shots 110 yards downrange and all hit inside a 4" circle without cleaning the barrel between shots (Doc Pardee 1875 Winchester catalog). It just didn't get much better than that. Even today shooters such as John Kort prove the ole' cartridge and it's original ballistics by consistently hitting steel javelina at 300 meters (but with using a scope). The purpose was to prove the rifle/cartridge, not the shooter's eye sight or shooting skills! Results from my gel testing days..."75/1 bullets penetrated 27” of clear gel and expanded to .528”..."The handgun loads gave velocities from 941-963 fps at 10 ft., perforated and exited the 32” gel block"...excerpts taken from an article by Ed Harris.

John Kort reports exerts from a reprinted "1875 Winchester catalog".

"factory 200 gr. lead bullet / 40 grs. black powder / 1,245 f.p.s

..."I have fully tested the late improved Winchester Rifle and take pleasure in stating that it is the best rifle I have ever used. I have killed a number of deer, at distances from one to two hundred yards and in every instance, the bullet passed clean through the body."

..."I killed at a full gallop, at about 100 yards distant, a very large buck with a splendid set of antlers with the first shot. The bullet struck him in the shoulder, as he ran toward me, and after traversing the entire length of his body, tearing the lights and paunch into atoms in its course, it passed out behind through the thickest part of the ham."

..."The killing qualities, at large game, is all that could be desired, to the wonder and admiration of the guides and sportsmen who saw its working during my visit to the Adirondack woods last fall."

..."I can say for one, that I think the Winchester Model of 1873 is the best firearm now in use for hunting and sporting; they give the best satisfaction to everyone that has used them here. James Gary and C.S. Martin have killed 17 bears and 100 deer since the first of September with Model 1873.

..."For a sporting rifle, I think the Winchester Rifle is excelled by none. I have killed antelope, deer, and elk, with my gun, at from 200 to 400 yards. I would not exchange it for any other rifle."

Long live the .44-40!"


Moving on up to modern factory/handload cartridges...modern velocities are about 1,190fps, still well plenty enough to knock down a whitetail but accuracy plummets in many cases out to and past 100 yards. In addition to many firearm's differences in barrel sizes, tolerances, projectile weights and other sizes piled up on top of a somewhat finicky to load thin-walled cartridge....the 44-40 has achieved a very unfair but understandable bad reputation.

When a person begins to understand all of these issues, learns to adapt and overcome, a whole new world will open up. The 44-40 is actually a very multifaceted cartridge. From shotshells, round ball "game getters", 180gr XTP coyote loads to 240gr deer loads...from 50 yards to 300 yard options....decisions on a load can be almost endless not to mention the fact that you are enjoying a classic rifle cartridge along with the firearms chambered for it. Most modern weapons cannot compete with that list. Let’s don't forget the revolvers too.

Now we get to the good stuff....
Looking at Lyman's reloading manual #49 page 299, (Double check my numbers) Lyman lists several powders and charges for the 44-40. In particular, Lyman lists 2400 powder in use with the Speer 200gr JSHP bullet #4425. Lyman shows they use a 24" Universal receiver with 1:36" twist for these particular tests. Cases trimmed to 1.295 and an AOL of 1.600. Lyman's measurements (plus some of my misc. measurements) with Starline brass and, using QuickLoad...gives a bullet seating depth of .313" as well as the pressures noted below. Your mileage may vary.

Lyman Manual.... vs...QL (Quickload) Data

grains/powder/velocity/cup/QL psi CIP

Group I Rifles (weak actions) (Lyman lists ten rifles) .....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40
16gr/2400/1,183fps/11,900/15,000 (fps=Current Factory Velocities) Normal Loads

Group II Rifles (strong actions) (Lyman lists nine rifles) .....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40
18gr/2400/1,380fps/14,500/19,000 (fps=Original Historical Velocities) +P Loads due to higher than max pressures
20gr/2400/1,638fps/19,000/25,753 (fps=1903 (1910) Factory "High Velocity" Replication) +P+ Loads due to excessive high pressure

Lyman also lists Unique and IMR4227 powders for Group II Rifles

My Goals....
Personally, I will not shoot anything in my Marlin with CIP estimated pressures over 26,000psi CIP, we all have our limitations, right? My first goal was to replicate the 1903, more yet...the 1910 "High Velocity" ballistics.... not to try and make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum as so I have been accused. I consider these HV loads as 44-40 "+P+" loads for those that like to use the "+P" status. My second goal was to share that my first goal is not needed to kill deer, but may highly improve accuracy out to 200-300 yards....again your mileage may very!

Somewhat of a conclusion...
Reputable writers have been using and publishing the +P type loads that replicate original 1,300fps velocities (but produce higher than black powder chamber pressures) in magazines and online articles for years.

Although the modern 1,300 fps velocities replicate original velocities using both black powder and early smokeless powder, the modern pressures generated are above SAAMI/CIP max pressures. I call modern 1,300fps velocities +P loads because of the higher than standard pressures of the earlier black powder and smokeless powder ballistics. The 1,400fps-1,600fps step in velocities I call +P+ loads.

Again not trying to make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum.... simply just trying to get that projectile downrange accurately and maintain enough energy to knock down that whitetail  The 44-40 is capable of distances further than 100 yards if the handloader does his homework.

HAPPY HUNTING!

Lyman lists 19 different rifles total....here are the popular rifles
Weak Actions - [Henry, 66'], 73's [and replicas]...I added the 44 rimfire & replica rifles that shoot the 44-40 cartridge!!!
Strong Actions - Win 92' & 94'...Marlin 1894.

CIP vs SAAMI Chamber Pressure Testing Methods
44-40 SAAMI Pressures, 13,000cup (page 21) and 11,000psi (page 33)
44-40 CIP Pressures, 15,000cup and 15,954psi

I always said handloading for the 44-40 can't be explained in a few simple sentences or even paragraphs....so I created a webpage to try and bring together many topics, posts, quotes, "experiences shared" in an attempt to just skim the 44-40's true potential :-)

https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

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Bryan Austin
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2018, 06:52:51 pm »



These cartridges produced a reported "22,000psi". Considering SAAMI max is 11,000psi...I'd say these are +P+ FACTORY loads.......BUT is still on the lowest of the lowest end of the 44 magnum scale.
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2018, 07:19:37 pm »

Just a little testing...Youtube Video's

"high pressure signs"....  Even at 22,000 psi estimated pressures, I experienced NO "high pressure signs" again proving you could blow up your Winchester 73' by simply trying to use a chronograph to guide your handloads. Stick to the manuals, don't rely on velocities to try to stay within safe pressures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiUFqhsFcg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN6undl4ZgI
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Bryan Austin
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2018, 07:28:50 pm »

I know ya'll know about PO Ackley right?

Now this dude scares the daylights outta me!!!!



Please, I beg you....don't try this...and I hear he used a Winchester 92 for these loads!!!


Ackley claims....followed by Quckload's estimated pressures using CIP standards. (informative only) Use this data if you have a Will made out!!!!!

Bullet used is unknown but estimated pressures are from a Winchester 200gr JSP bullet QL data

/25gr/2400/1870fps/.....................41,557psi
/27.5gr/2400/2100fps/..................55,349psi

/27gr/4227/1859fps/.....................IMR/28,425psi
/29gr/4227/1990fps/.....................IMR/35,997psi

I would like to test the bottom two in my MGM test barrel platform. BUT the top two could be disastrous and I am not ready for that yet.
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2018, 10:58:14 am »

P.O. Ackley loved the concept of destructive testing, didn't he. I have his books, but back in the day I preferred Ken Water's PET LOADS.

NOW, always go to the powder manufacturer's online data!
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2018, 03:07:43 pm »

I use Alliant Promo in my 44-40 loads.  The Alliant on line loading chart shows 5.9 of Red Dot which is interchangeable by weight with Promo.  I called Alliant and the guy there recommended I use 5.3 of Promo to get an 800 FPS load.  I have been using this load for about 3 years and it has served me well.
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 07:39:41 pm »

I just saw today that Buffalo Bore manufactures a "Heavy" 44-40 load that replicates original BP velocities @ 1,350fps from a 20" barrel, 980fps from a 7 1/2 revolver... but chamber pressures remain below SAAMI 13,000 cup.
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 11:25:22 pm »

And after all that I just have to scratch my head and think..why?? 44 magnum and other larger chamberings do exist today so why?

Am I the only one that needs such a small excuse to buy another gun?
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 11:28:33 pm »

And after all that I just have to scratch my head and think..why?? 44 magnum and other larger chamberings do exist today so why?

Am I the only one that needs such a small excuse to buy another gun?

   Why? Why what? Nothing wrong with owning a firearm in a particular caliber and loading it to its potential. Just because I own a 44-40 doesn't mean I should be predisposed to load it light.

  CHT
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 12:20:59 am »

Somebody quoted Ackley ?
Many moons ago our local Aussie reloading manual listed top loads for 44/40 ... 200grain jacketed @ 2000fps = 29 grains of Dupont 4227
This was in Antique winchester model 92 cuz it was before we ever saw a Rossi or anything modern in steel
 Always thought that was three or four grains too much - but nobody blew a 92 up with those loads an if ya smacked a pig in the bushes with it there was seldom any argument from tother end.
Some argue that the 44mag brass is so much stronger (than 44/40) - and it is too but if ya relyin on thicker brass to contain 40000psi in a weak or sloppy action - I think ya barkin up the wrong tree - the advantage might be there but its gonna be marginal.
Rossis and 94's came along in 44/40 and the rules changed some - new guns - modern steel - but the interest in real hotrod loads for the old 44/40 waned ..... other tools were available to do the bigger job better or easier - when I shot my first hot loads in a 92 - nodody I knew had even seen a 45/70 - now they are common - things have changed some !   
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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 06:32:20 am »

44 magnum and other larger chamberings do exist today so why?

These are loaded to original velocities of 1,300fps plus at below 13,000cup so what is the problem? Are you saying the original 44wcf loads of 1873 are equivalent to 44 magnum loads?   NICE!  Grin
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