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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt SAA Clones (Moderators: RRio, Gen Lew Wallace, Hoof Hearted)  |  Topic: EMF Hartford Model 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: EMF Hartford Model  (Read 3904 times)
MikeM.
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« on: January 13, 2018, 10:28:54 am »


Back in the 90s I owned a 5.5 inch EMF Hartford Model 44-40 with a black powder frame. It actually had “ Frontier Six Shooter “ on the side of the barrel. That was a great gun but I foolishly traded it away. Were these made by Pietta? I sure would like to get my hands on another one like it . Do any of you guys out there know where one might be for sale?? I would appreciate any help I could get with finding one I remember that they used to claim that this gun was the only copy compatible with 1st generation Colts . I don’t know if that still stands true as the Cimarron Model P may also be , I don’t know. Anyway, if anybody has one they might part with or knows where one is , I would certainly be interested.....
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MikeM.
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2018, 05:51:14 pm »

Also looking for a 5.5 inch old model Cimarron Model P in 44-40. They are out of them at Cimarron and I can’t find one on line so if any of y’all know where one is , I would sure appreciate you putting me in touch with it....
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Abilene
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« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2018, 11:38:33 pm »

Perhaps you knew and prefer Uberti, but the Pietta version PP523 is available.
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Dakota Ike
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2018, 09:20:37 am »

The EMF Hartford model was made by Armi San Marco.  I have one in .45 Colt I bought in the 90's.. Great gun.
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Bibbyman
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2018, 12:11:23 pm »

The EMF Hartford model was made by Armi San Marco.  I have one in .45 Colt I bought in the 90's.. Great gun.

We have a baker's dozen Uberti Cattleman revolvers.   We have a brace of beautiful Taylor's Smoke Wagons in 44WCF at the gunsmith for just over a month to have bushings installed to repair cratering damage around firing pin holes on both of them.   Pietta has hardened a bushing around the firing pin hole like Colt - but Uberti does not. 

The repair bill will not be cheap.  Taylor's told us that the cost to repair would be higher than buying new guns. Two other gunsmiths told us to trade them off. 

Given that the new Ubertis have the new floating firing pin system,   I'd go with the Pietta.
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MikeM.
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2018, 06:46:45 pm »

Wow! That is a new one to me
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MikeM.
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2018, 11:32:45 pm »

Has anybody else had this problem??
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Abilene
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2018, 12:46:46 am »

Has anybody else had this problem??

Honestly it is not too common.  And for Bibbyman to have both of a pair needing it makes me wonder.  Lots of dry firing?  Frames not heat treated properly?  Evil Roy put well over a million cycles through his first pair of Ubertis without a problem, although he might have stoned down a burr if one developed for all I know.

I should think a repair might cost less than a new set of guns, though.  Might want to contact Lassiter.  Besides bushings I've heard he can weld up the hole and refinish it.  Opentop style guns have had that problem more so than SAA's but perhaps because their firing pins have no wiggle to them.
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Bibbyman
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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2018, 02:49:01 am »

Honestly it is not too common.  And for Bibbyman to have both of a pair needing it makes me wonder.  Lots of dry firing?  Frames not heat treated properly?  Evil Roy put well over a million cycles through his first pair of Ubertis without a problem, although he might have stoned down a burr if one developed for all I know.

I should think a repair might cost less than a new set of guns, though.  Might want to contact Lassiter.  Besides bushings I've heard he can weld up the hole and refinish it.  Opentop style guns have had that problem more so than SAA's but perhaps because their firing pins have no wiggle to them.

I'm puzzled too. Like I said, we have 9 other Uberti Cattleman revolvers and none have been damaged in this way.  One retired professional gunsmith said it looked like erosion from the firing pin piercing the primer letting hot gasses back against the breach face.

This sequential numbered pair was made in 2014 and looked like new with box and papers when I bought then used through an ad on the internet. Even the inside parts looked brand new.  The previous owner only comment was that they didn't give him any problems.

I brought up, in person,  TIG welding the area and dressing it down to three different gunsmiths and all refused to weld them.  

I tried to contact Lassiter twice and got no replay.  I've had correspondence with several other gunsmiths and none will take on the repair job.

The picture of the crater is deceiving and makes the damage much larger and worse than it actually is. The major diameter is less than the diameter of the primer.  The depth is only a couple of thousands.  But it's enough to let the primer extrude into the cavity and lock up the gun.


* Smoke Wagon primer Nov 2017_1509827685655.jpg (217.93 KB, 640x588 - viewed 70 times.)

* Smoke Wagon fph Nov 2017_1509827685463.jpg (205.88 KB, 640x555 - viewed 75 times.)
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2018, 03:57:36 am »

Mike -
your best bet is to follow ALL the online auctions closely, and haunt your local gunshows, toy stores, and pawn shops.
you just never know where anything will turn up!

Bibbyman -
I offer both commiseration and puzzlement - it seems few 'smiths are willing to tackle this , even tho it seems simple enough.
the parts are called eith "firing pin bushings" or "recoil plates" and sell for between $13 and $35 depending  on make and vendor.

I did finally find a photo:


this thread discusses it:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=38363.0
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=25491.0

depending upon brand, one may just be able to "drive out" the old one and "glue in" a new one.
If one needs to mill a new bushing hole in the frame, removing the barrel and milling a hole ~ 3/8 diam and .1 deep does not
seem overly difficult - easier than milling and threading holes for a floating firing pin and its threaded bushing, which I am doing
for 2 remington 1858 thick plate conversions ....

but hey I am not a gunsmith, so what do I know.... and I am retired now and my time doesn't cost anything
( unless you want computer help - then it's $250 per hour. more if I don't like you )

yhs
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2018, 04:05:01 am »

I'm puzzled too. Like I said, we have 9 other Uberti Cattleman revolvers and none have been damaged in this way.  One retired professional gunsmith said it looked like erosion from the firing pin piercing the primer letting hot gasses back against the breach face.

This sequential numbered pair was made in 2014 and looked like new with box and papers when I bought then used through an ad on the internet. Even the inside parts looked brand new.  The previous owner only comment was that they didn't give him any problems.

I brought up, in person,  TIG welding the area and dressing it down to three different gunsmiths and all refused to weld them.  

I tried to contact Lassiter twice and got no replay.  I've had correspondence with several other gunsmiths and none will take on the repair job.

The picture of the crater is deceiving and makes the damage much larger and worse than it actually is. The major diameter is less than the diameter of the primer.  The depth is only a couple of thousands.  But it's enough to let the primer extrude into the cavity and lock up the gun.

Ah My Good Bibby -

not willing to TIG?
that tells me they don't know  ho or do not have enough experience at TIG welding.
I cannot tell you how many self-proclaimed welding experts just plain can't weld.
One of our new members here, a Swede named "Racing" is busy repairing original 1858's and his work is beautiful -
tigging a cracked forcing cone and it's strong than before, bushing a drilled- out cylinder nipple - and it's stronger than before...

I really have to wonder about These Gunsmiths now  - little more than "parts swappers".

yhs
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LonesomePigeon
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« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2018, 04:19:09 am »

Please don't take this to the bank because I am not a gunsmith... but I seem to have read somethign about this before. The Uberti "recoil plates", I believe, can be pressed in and then peened in place with a punch and then the peened area smoothed down.
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Bibbyman
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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 04:44:42 am »

Mike -
your best bet is to follow ALL the online auctions closely, and haunt your local gunshows, toy stores, and pawn shops.
you just never know where anything will turn up!

Bibbyman -
I offer both commiseration and puzzlement - it seems few 'smiths are willing to tackle this , even tho it seems simple enough.
the parts are called eith "firing pin bushings" or "recoil plates" and sell for between $13 and $35 depending  on make and vendor.

I did finally find a photo:


this thread discusses it:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=38363.0
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=25491.0

depending upon brand, one may just be able to "drive out" the old one and "glue in" a new one.
If one needs to mill a new bushing hole in the frame, removing the barrel and milling a hole ~ 3/8 diam and .1 deep does not
seem overly difficult - easier than milling and threading holes for a floating firing pin and its threaded bushing, which I am doing
for 2 remington 1858 thick plate conversions ....

but hey I am not a gunsmith, so what do I know.... and I am retired now and my time doesn't cost anything
( unless you want computer help - then it's $250 per hour. more if I don't like you )

yhs
prof marvel

I bought a pair of Pietta firing pin bushings from Taylor's.  The guns and bushings are at Alhmans in Morristown Minnesota now waiting on repair.  They refused to TIG weld the crater.  Installing the bushing will definitely require machining. 

What's puzzling to me...  An uneducated blacksmith on the frontier 200 years ago could build a beautiful Kentucky rifle from raw materials with basic hand tools that likely made himself,   yet trained gunsmiths with a well equipped machine shop is totally stumped at how to go about repairing the damage to these guns.
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The Pathfinder
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« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 09:22:28 am »

Bibbyman, it's the cylinder. Most of todays new gunsmiths have no idea hoe to get it out of the way. Grin
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MikeM.
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« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 12:48:34 pm »

Well, I like the looks, fit/finish, markings, and etc. of the Cimarron Model P better than the Pietta Frontier so I guess I will just have to put off my SAA endeavors until somebody makes one that will last and won't have problems oh, and that I can afford on a poor boy's wage. Did the EMF Hartford Model have the bushing in it?? Dang, I wish I could find one like I had years ago.....
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Major 2
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« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 03:13:56 pm »

Stainless Cimarron Firearms Model P has FP bushing
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Bibbyman
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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 04:03:18 pm »

The thing is,  when you go looking for a Colt clone in 44WCF,   you only have a very limited selection of models and features from to choose.  Once you compromise and make a choice,  finding one in stock is about impossible. 

The damage to my Smoke Wagons was the result of some misuse or abuse.  Normally,  they give good service.  From my experience with these two, if I had a choice between Pietta with a firing pin bushing and traditional Colt action,  or a Uberti with the new action, I'd go with the Pietta. 
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MikeM.
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 04:44:45 pm »

Do the Cimarron Frontier revolvers have the markings like on a P model? Does anybody have one that they could send me pics of? Do they have the serial number on cylinder and all??
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Abilene
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 06:49:32 pm »

The Pietta has patent dates on frame;  not positive, but I don't think it has the s/n on the cylinder.

The barrel markings are not the same style as Model P.
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MikeM.
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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 09:20:19 pm »

I may go with the Cimarron Model P and have the bushing installed right away. I know a smith who could do such a thing . How is that bushing held in place? Do y’all think VTI would carry them ?
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Abilene
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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 09:41:26 pm »

I may go with the Cimarron Model P and have the bushing installed right away. I know a smith who could do such a thing . How is that bushing held in place? Do y’all think VTI would carry them ?

 IMO a total waste of time and money.  But hey, your gun!
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MikeM.
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 09:51:20 pm »

Having the bushing installed or the Uberti revolver period?
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Abilene
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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 10:38:27 pm »

The bushing.  I mean, 99.9% of the guns do not have a problem (talking Model P's.  Opentops/conversions probably a bit worse.  Some of those would get a primer sized indentation around the FP hole).  If yours turns out to be the 0.1% that does, put a bushing in then.  Just my opinion.   On the other hand, if you want to do it "just because" well, most of us can relate to that!   Smiley

Otherwise, if you do start to raise a little burr in the FP hole, stone it down flat and diagnose and fix whatever caused it so it doesn't happen again.

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MikeM.
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 10:52:37 pm »

So , don’t fix it if it ain’t broke, right ?? Pretty good advise ..... thanks
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45 Dragoon
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 02:50:32 am »

I agree with Abilene. I got an El Patron Comp when they first came out. It gets "exercised"  100 cycles a day (used to be 50 but I have 2 cylinders. 2x50). Had a burr appear, dressed it down and haven't had any problems since.

Mike
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt SAA Clones (Moderators: RRio, Gen Lew Wallace, Hoof Hearted)  |  Topic: EMF Hartford Model « previous next »
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