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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks (Moderators: Delmonico, Pitspitr)  |  Topic: Chiappa Sharps M1863/1868 50-70 carbine (now with pictures) 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Chiappa Sharps M1863/1868 50-70 carbine (now with pictures)  (Read 4308 times)
Drydock
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2018, 05:58:58 pm »

https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Buffalo-Rifles-Old-West/dp/1879356929/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8


Entertaining read, lots of good info.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/272/4/BOOK-SPG

Another good one to have on the shelf.
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2018, 10:17:11 pm »

 Thanks for adding the photos, Chuck ... sweet looking carbine!   Grin
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2018, 12:58:16 pm »

You can make the loading of BPCR rounds in any calibre as labour intensive as you want. Simple is better, especially if you like shooting more than reloading.

A pal of mine (who no longer shoots due to failing eyesight and other health issues) used to go the whole nine yards - weighing/sorting  bullets, weighing charges, checking cases for concentricity, wall thickness, indexing bullets and cases, etc., etc. Because I had the guns, he wanted to drag me along this route.

I told him that I'd quit shooting first. Paper patching? It is to laugh ..... It's enough of a PITA to make up paper cartridges for my '63's.

I cast good bullets, anneal, trim, put cases thru' my RCBS case prep machine, weigh charges 'lectronically, taper crimp. That's all, folks.
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Drydock
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2018, 09:35:45 pm »

I want to make an observation:  I've been looking at a lot of pictures and video of this carbine since receiving it.  Google "McNelly Sharps" to see what I mean.  Most date from 2013 or earlier, the time when Beliveau made his video, sparking a surge of interest in this particular model.  Looking at these pictures and video, I see a startling visual difference in these guns then and now.  The metal finish then was dull, mottled grey.  Some photo's show virtually no case color at all.  Some of the photo's show the classically ugly Italian red packing box wood.  Even Believeaus video shows a very bland, blond hardwood.   

If my gun is a good example, in the last 5 years someone at Chiappa has made a real effort at improving these guns, at least from a visual/wood/finish standpoint.   I can also see the front sight was changed from a one piece barleycorn to a practical shooter friendly changeable blade type.   Though I cannot see internals of course,  still I find this encouraging.
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2018, 08:07:06 pm »

I omitted a couple of other steps I do when loading BPCR rounds ....

I FL resize my brass, drop tube with a 24" stainless steel tube and use a compression die on top of a thin card wad for 45-70. For 50-70, I use the bullet for compression with no wad.

Works for me.

Re: the quality of your Chiappa carbine .... when you posted the pics, my reaction was "Wow! That is one very nice rifle." If yours is typical, they have a winner.
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Drydock
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2018, 09:02:47 pm »

I'm quite happy with it.  I plan on shooting 2 Matchs with it in march, both our local CAS match, and our Missouri Muster one week later.  I'm looking forward to it.  I have Croft Barkers book ordered BTW.  I have his .43 Spanish book as well.
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1961MJS
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2018, 11:41:18 am »

Re: the quality of your Chiappa carbine .... when you posted the pics, my reaction was "Wow! That is one very nice rifle." If yours is typical, they have a winner.

Hi

From my standpoint, Chiappa's quality isn't typical.  I own two, a Chiappa Cavalry Sharps Carbine in .45-70.  The trigger pull was over 10 pounds and the rear sight ladder was completely worthless.  My 1911 gunsmith took the Cavalry gun and just stoned the bearing surfaces and now the trigger pull is about 5 pounds.  No spring work or metal removal.  

I also have a Chiappa 1886 .45-70 Lever gun that is just beautiful.  The out of the box trigger pull was 5 pounds.  I also don't have a load worked up for it.

Later
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2018, 06:26:12 pm »

Do you want a couple of recommendations?
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Drydock
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2018, 08:47:06 pm »

More pictures.  If you look, you can make out the assembly number: 7.  Lucky number?  Stamped on the metal parts, written in pencil on the wood.  Maybe they take a bit more time with the .50s?  Probably don't make a lot of them.


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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2018, 10:46:52 pm »

Do you want a couple of recommendations?

If you mean me, yep.  Can't hurt.  I DID get a sight that works better, but I DO need to shim it.

Later
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« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2018, 12:48:09 pm »

Drydock has covered the BP recipe. Mike Venturino first mentioned it in his book on BPCRs.

For smokeless, try 28 grs 5744 with the 450 gr Lyman 515141 or Rapine 375 gr bullet. The latter is out of print and you may have to hunt for an equivalent.

The 5744 load shoots to the same point of aim as the BP loads - with MY rifle. You get some unburned powder grs. Big deal.

Incidentally, the same powder 5744 charges work in the 45-70 with the Lyman 457193 420 gr RNFP and the RCBS 350 gr RNFP.
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"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne
Drydock
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« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 08:22:00 pm »

https://www.buffaloarms.com/brass-oak-drop-tube-for-black-powder-cartridge-droptube2

I would add, for any cartridge of greater than 40 grains capacity, I think a drop tube is vital.  Drop tube loads burn cleaner, and make possible single digit standard deviations.   I don't do much else in the way of precision loading, but I do use a drop tube.  It's the best way to consistently settle the powder.  And consistency is everything in the BP rifle cartridge.  Bullet, bullet lube, powder, powder settling, powder compression, primer, all need to be consistent for best results,  

A BP rifle cartridge need only be a proper BP lubed bullet, powder and primer.  But those 3 components need to be loaded as consistent as possible.  Do that, and 3 moa is easy.  That's all you need for combat/field use.  Especially if it's one of the straight cased American rounds.

The above is a nice one, and it also shows how easy it is to make one.
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Pitspitr
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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2018, 11:31:49 am »

You can make the loading of BPCR rounds in any calibre as labour intensive as you want. Simple is better, especially if you like shooting more than reloading.

A pal of mine (who no longer shoots due to failing eyesight and other health issues) used to go the whole nine yards - weighing/sorting  bullets, weighing charges, checking cases for concentricity, wall thickness, indexing bullets and cases, etc., etc. Because I had the guns, he wanted to drag me along this route.

I told him that I'd quit shooting first. Paper patching? It is to laugh ..... It's enough of a PITA to make up paper cartridges for my '63's.

I cast good bullets, anneal, trim, put cases thru' my RCBS case prep machine, weigh charges 'lectronically, taper crimp. That's all, folks.
Your recipe (not your friend's) pretty much sounds like my recipe except that I add that I drill out the flash holes. I started doing that because Wolf recommended it in his book. Then after doing it to a couple of batches of brass, I found that W-W brass has VERY inconsistent flash hole size and that by drilling it out they are going to be more consistent. And I don't weigh BP. I throw them by volume and drop tube them. Other guys will produce more accurate loads, but I don't shoot well enough to need any more accuracy than what my loads produce.
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2018, 10:19:09 pm »

Hey PJ, he's got a .45-70!  Grin

But its pretty much the same.  My load is the same Lee 4.0cc dipper of OE 3f, leveled with an old credit card, under the Lee 405 HB, OAL of 2.55".  I use a Winchester WLR primer, Starline brass, and uniform the primer holes.  Lube in the lube grooves, with the base empty and clean.  Powder slowly poured into the case with a Drop Tube.  This gives light compression with the bullet.    Do not use wads with a hollow base bullet, they can cock in the hollow and cause flyers.  Plain base bullets can be used, but they must be a Black Powder design, with generous lube capacity.  Adjust powder as needed to ensure light compression. (defined as no more than the depth of one driving band on the bullet) or use a card wad to achieve same.

I cast these hot, preheating the mold on a hot plate.  I keep only the ones that are fully filled out, any round edges are thrown back in the pot, or set aside for plinking/armidillo loads.  Frosted appearance does not bother me.

28 grains 5744 under this bullet works well.
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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2018, 12:36:26 pm »

28 grs of 5744 works well in the 45-70 as well with both 420 and 350 gr bullets.
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Drydock
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« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2018, 04:47:56 pm »

Back out to the farm again today (70 degrees!)  5 more rounds, same loading, one big hole in the paper plate at 50 yards.  It seems be on at 50, so now I engaged a 10" steel plate at 100 yards, holding at the bottom of the plate.  5 rounds, 5 hits.  Though you do have to wait a while for the wildly swinging target to stabilize.

Went looking for another armidillo.  They stayed hid today.

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« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2018, 05:24:52 pm »

Hi, will you get 60 shots with that load without cleaning?  That's one bad match's worth.

I drill the flash holes on all my reloads except the Hornady 30-40 looked to good to bother with. 

Later
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Drydock
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« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2018, 06:01:46 pm »

Well, so far the most I've put thru it is 11 rounds at one time.  The bore had well defined lands and grooves, and good shine all the way to the muzzle, no dry hard fouling, nice greasy muzzle.  The Lee 515450 (and Lymans 515141) is a duplicate of the original military bullet, and carries lots of lubricant.  Cleaning has been a tapwater patch, a dry patch, and a couple of Ballistol patchs.  

I usually run a wet patch down the bore between skirmish runs, so I don't think there will be any fouling problems with this load.  That's up in Nebraska, with really low humidity.  I might try shooting a whole match down here in MO without anything other than a few breaths down the barrel now and then.  I've done this with a Trapdoor carbine,  the 22" barrels are a lot easier to maintain than the 30"+ barrels.

You come down here in March, you'll get to see if it works.
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« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 07:29:58 pm »

One other thing:  In Croft Barkers book on the .50-70, he describes in the "Tuning" chapter, coating the lockwork in heavy automotive (Wheel bearing) grease for a significant improvement. I have some thick white biodegradable grease used for gears in electric trains, and decided to try packing the lock with that.  Tacky stuff, designed to stay put.

It made a perceptible improvement.  My Trapdoors and Spencer will be getting the same treatment.  I suspect it would not make much difference on the bolt actions, but for big hammer lockwork I think this makes a lot of sense.  Especially in actions where the lockwork is protected from any gas/fouling coming off the breech. 
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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2018, 07:17:08 am »

Hi, will you get 60 shots with that load without cleaning?  That's one bad match's worth.
You can run a rod through it in between stages.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2018, 05:44:42 pm »

A skinny funnel and a canteen work wonders!
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« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2018, 08:51:27 pm »

2 armadillos today!  A big one ran into a brush/leaf pile as I drew a bead on him.  Stood quiet for a while, then blew his head off when he poked it out.  (Only 8 paces or so). On the back ridge, disemboweled another with a stern shot from 30 paces.  Saw a 3rd one, rooting next to my truck (!) as I walked back.  I kept trying to quarter round to get a shot, but he finally took off.  Tried a running shot, dug dirt out from under him, must have cut some belly hair off the critter.  Got into the brush.

Its a target rich environment out there!
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« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2018, 06:36:24 pm »

While driving my route, I saw a girl out in her hard taking pictures of a big armadillo. Then she was throwing rocks at it, but from pretty far away. I guess nobody told her you can usually walk up within 20-30 feet of one pretty easily. Being on the job, I was unarmed Angry but I'm pretty sure I could get close enough to one to take it with my .380.
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« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2018, 06:53:03 pm »

2 armadillos today!  A big one ran into a brush/leaf pile as I drew a bead on him.  Stood quiet for a while, then blew his head off when he poked it out.  (Only 8 paces or so). On the back ridge, disemboweled another with a stern shot from 30 paces.  Saw a 3rd one, rooting next to my truck (!) as I walked back.  I kept trying to quarter round to get a shot, but he finally took off.  Tried a running shot, dug dirt out from under him, must have cut some belly hair off the critter.  Got into the brush.

Its a target rich environment out there!
Did you use the .50-70?  Good thing if you did.  You never know when they might charge!
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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2018, 08:00:41 pm »

With my wife on a walk one fine fall day, I took four Ruffed Grouse with my 50-70 Shiloh Military rifle using smokeless loads.

Three were head shots on treed birds, the fourth was a body shot. There was a .50 entry hole and a .50 exit flap hole.

Quite a step from the six point Mule deer and two large black bears, but that was all the game that showed up.

The 50-70 will do it all!
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I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks (Moderators: Delmonico, Pitspitr)  |  Topic: Chiappa Sharps M1863/1868 50-70 carbine (now with pictures) « previous next »
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