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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: Using Lee Conicals bullets in Paper Cartridges 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Using Lee Conicals bullets in Paper Cartridges  (Read 1049 times)
Black River Smith
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« on: December 06, 2017, 10:05:46 am »


I initially posted this in the CAS reloading forum but decide to place it here.  Maybe will get more comments.


Some questions about these BP conicals.

I want to use the same bullet straight and make into paper cartridges.  I do not have a working brass mold for the 44 like I have for the 0.36.  I do have a limited quantity of cast bullets when the mold was working.  But, I am not paying $50+ for something that I once bought for $20 that was back then, called an inferior bullet quality.

So, using in a Pietta 44 cal 1860 with chambers measuring 0.444 to 0.446.  See info I have found and questions below and advise, please.  Just do not want to buy two molds just to find out what works best.

Most info states the use of Lee 450-200 mold for this type of firearm but most info states the use of a 0.454 ball for this firearm.  How does the Lee work sealing the chambers when it is advertised at only 450 diameter?  Also, I read that this bullet has three different diameters -- heel, first band and then bullet that is finally at 0.454.  What is correct?

Why not buy the Lee 456-220 mold then just size the bullet to 0.454 and start from there loading or making paper cartridges.

Thanks for sharing your learned experience.  I am still reading  read through the 6 pages of my search topic results (at the time of posting these question) for an answers to what to use for the Pietta 44 conical.  In the posting 'How to ruin a Pietta' I had stated that I altered my revolver to work with conicals.

BRS
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Black River Smith
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 05:19:44 pm »

I have used the Lee conical .44 mold before, but now believe that there are better molds out there- especially if you want to make paper cartridges.

Check out these:

http://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/johnston_and_dow__44_caliber.html

I just bought a one of those molds last Saturday at the CW show in Franklin, TN.  I haven't had a chance to mold any bullets with it yet, but look forward to it.
The mold above was designed to make a bullet that would be part of a combustible paper cartridge.  

Chris
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hellgate
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 06:16:26 pm »

My experience has been the LEE 200gr conical will not fit under the rammer in a Pietta. I have an older ASM Hartford model 1860 that, with some jiggling, I can get a 200gr conical into it. The original Colt's revolvers had far more room under the rammer for conicals. I have had no problem getting the LEE conical into Remingtons from Pietta, Euroarms, & Uberti. You would need to hog out quite a bit of metal from under the barrel. Take a good look at an original and then look at a repro and there is quite a bit of difference in the ram area.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 07:30:00 pm »

Yes- many of the repro. revolvers will have to be modified to be able to load the conicals.  I had to modify a Uberti Walker to be able to load the Lee bullet.  Below is a link to Mike Believeau's video on how he modified a '60 Army to accept bullets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyQAQnTjAac
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Black River Smith
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 09:59:16 pm »

Ala Bushwhacker and Hellgate,

Thanks for the comments but Please Read the Very Last Line of my posting and go to that posting here:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,60067.0.html

I have already done the work to make the Pietta a conical bullet acceptor.

What I need is -- Is the Lee 450 - 200 molded bullet 'really' a 0.450 diameter or 0.454 at the ogive body?   Also has anyone bought the Lee 456-220 and sized it to 0.454 without any issues or problems?


Just for added info the conical bullet that is molded from the old Colt style brass mold drops a bullet tha is 0.460 to 0.467 in diameter.

Thank you
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Black River Smith
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 10:28:14 pm »

The LEE 200gr conical has the proper reduced diameter driving bands to allow it to partially seat into the chamber without canting. A larger bullet like the 220 gr LEE will just sit on top of the smaller chamber mouth of the Pietta (probably ~.448"dia.) and maybe or maybe not go in straight. Also the larger diameter bullet base will result in a larger diameter powder section that may not seat down into the mouth unless severely tapered. A .454 diameter is too large to get good alignment with the chamber. The LEE 200gr self centers. The 220grainer won't.
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"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 11:03:45 pm »

I bought and use the MOLD D C 375-130-1R  ( for .36 navies) and MOLD D C 450-200-1R ( for .44 colt 1860's and reminggton 1858's )

The 220 gr Lee MOLD D C 456-220-1R  is suposed to be for the Ruger Old Army and any other pistols with "larger chambers"

BRS: I still haven't got the lead pot hot yet, sorry to say... but hang in there.
once I do I can send you some if you like.

yhs
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 08:30:42 pm »

Conicals have sure given me more trouble in my life, than they have added joy. Haha 

If you load "off" the gun, with fine form and intent, you can accomplish the task with good results. But the lee conical is not always a good fit. The bullet won't  just drop-in and square-up nicely into your cylinder. 

Trying to wrestle them under the rammer, with a (painstakingly made) paper cartridge attached to the bullets' backside is not fun or productive. I do find that the .36 is easier then the 45 (44aka) with conicals.

No way would you want a bullet sized to .454...that is just way to much lead to shave with your rammer on a full sized bullet. I use mostly .457rb's ..but that is different than a bullet with no rebated base.

It takes a little time to develop the skills and patterns require to produce a quality paper cartridge. It sure breaks your heart when the shells crumble and break on loading.

 I have gone to making my cartridges with Round Balls and have been so happy with them!!!  They are actually fun to make and they load and shoot flawlessly.

I even paint them with Water Glass now...I have submerged the shells in water, pulled them out and load them, with no effect from the water.

 Watching tv wouldn't be same for me if I wasn't rolling cartridges! Grin

Mine are made mostly like the way this guy makes them....and I even have a complete set of his boxes.

https://youtu.be/-2HUcfAyaaQ

Paper cartridges are fun...but conicals with paper can quickly be "not-fun".. try the Round Ball in your papers before you give up on cartridges. Cheesy


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Black River Smith
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 05:56:46 pm »

After reading and re-reading Mike Beliveaus' article on 'Conical Bullets' in the new 'Guns of the Old West' magazine, I have decided to use an old Dixie scissors mold.  The bullet from the mold has characteristics inbetween the brass Colt mold and the Johnston and Dow bullets.

The diameter is only 0.449 to 0.454; a weight of only 183 grains and an OAL of 0.560 to 0.565.  The only issue with the molded bullet is the heel.  It is very short but has a smaller diameter of 0.415 to 0.420.  Which means it may not be the easiest thing to line-up or start straight.   But we will see.

Professor Marvel,
Thanks for the offer of making and sending me some bullets but do not bother working to get the Lee bullets molded.  I am just going to pass on buying one of their molds.  It just seems to heavy for the use.


PS -- These bullets do fit in and under the Pietta 1858 rammer.  So that makes it better than the J&D bullet for use.
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Black River Smith
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2017, 01:26:54 am »

Greetings My Good Monsieur Smith -

It sounds like the dixie mold might just be the ticket for you! since it already fits your revolver, that is a major plus. also, with the  short heal no larger than ~ .420 the right papers might just fill out the space perfectly for a nice fit.


Professor Marvel,
Thanks for the offer of making and sending me some bullets but do not bother working to get the Lee bullets molded.  I am just going to pass on buying one of their molds.  It just seems to heavy for the use.
/quote]

You are certainly welcome, if you find you would like some to try later, just re-open to this thread :-)

happy holidays!
prof marvel
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2017, 05:56:56 pm »

Without hijacking this thread, I have a question.  Would either the EPP-UG or DD-ROA bullets work for paper cartridges, or would the rebate be too short?  I've never tried to load them in paper but this is a question that requires more experience than I have.

Thanks in advance.

DD-MDA
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2017, 06:09:07 pm »

Quote
Would either the EPP-UG or DD-ROA bullets work for paper cartridges,



I don't see why not
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