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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  STORM (Moderators: RRio, Major 2)  |  Topic: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?  (Read 1849 times)
rbertalotto
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« on: December 01, 2017, 10:31:38 am »


Hi Mike,

Read your article in this months "Guns Of The Old West"....found the issue on paper cartridges intriguinging and ordered up a mold from Eras Gone Bullets and John Gurnee's book "How To Make Cap And Ball Revolver Cartridges and Packets". 

Turned a wrapping mandrel out of aluminum and made a bunch of cartridges. These turned out great!

When I went to load them in my revolvers there were issues.

The bullets drop from the mold at .463 to .465Ē

The chambers on two Piatta 44cal C&B revolvers are .442-.444

Near impossible to seat a bullet with this tight a chamber. Had to use my bench vice to get the bullet seated and it shaved off quite a bit of lead.

I have a Uberti Walker and a Dragoon and those chambers are .449 - .450

I have a cylinder reamer for the 45 Colt and I reamed the Piatta cylinders to .450. Still quite hard to load as these revolver have a 5" barrel and the loading lever is very short and not a lot of leverage. A 12"  piece of metal tubing slipped over the ram lever helped.

Am I doing something wrong?

Has anyone else run into this issue?

Thanks
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Roy B
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 06:10:55 pm »

Bullets need to be pure lead or close to it.

Mike (not that one)
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 07:34:59 pm »

I'm using 20-1 lead which isn'y too hard.

I loaded a few rounds and went to the range. They all went BANG and accuracy was outstanding!

There was a relative large amount of paper left in the chamber. I did not use nitrate paper and just used the paper I got from Buffalo Arms for paper-patching bullets. It might be too heavy.

Going to try it with cigarette paper.

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Roy B
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 07:49:52 pm »

Probably get better results with hair curling papers. And, they're cheap!!

Mike
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 08:04:29 pm »

I'll experiment with both....Thanks
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Roy B
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 09:01:35 pm »

Lemmie See Here.

You have a projectile "as cast" at .463 - .465

You were trying to stuff that projectile into a 442 - 444 hole (chamber).   Ah ... Think about that for a minute.

Now you are still trying to stuff a .463 projectile into a 450 hole (chamber).  Re:  Above.

Expecting to swage or shave this projectile down some are we??  Then shoot it through a .451 - 452 bore???

Getting some resistance at the rammer arm??  Surprised are we???

Not to be flip (yes I am) but ever think the chamber might see that projectile as an OBSTRUCTION??  If you had to use a BENCH VICE to seat the projectile ...... IT IS AN OBSTRUCTION!!  Cummon RB, yer smarter than that!!!  12 inch CHEATER BAR?Huh  Your not turning lug nuts here.  That particular projectile may not be intended for pistol use.  And ... How are you measuring your chamber dimension??
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rbertalotto
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 09:09:48 pm »

At this point I have a .450 bullet firing through a .. Pietta 44 cal bore of unknown dimension.

In my Kirst 1860 conversions, Iím firing a .452 bullet through these same Barrels Over 10,000 rounds and I can still count to 10.

Tonight I ordered a .452 and a .454 chucking readers.

Iíll slug the bore to see where I am in that regard.




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Roy B
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 11:51:08 pm »

Maybe instead of reaming the chambers, run the bullets through a .452 or .454 sizing die?
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 12:17:41 am »

Just saw the new GOTOW at the grocery store and sure enough,  hair curling papers. I don't load P.C.s (just the pretty brass ones!!) but know some folks that do and they all sware by the curling papers. That should take care of residual paper in the chambers.  Anyway, C.M. makes a good point (vage as it may be   Grin )  about the size difference of the bullet you are attempting to load in a much smaller chamber. Anyhow, I'm sure you'll figure that one out.

Mike
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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 02:34:37 am »

Using. A sizing die is s good idea. Think I might try this.
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Roy B
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2017, 05:14:31 am »

My Dear Roy -
whatever mold do you have that is dropping a conical at .463 - .465 ?

I am using the Lee MOLD D C 450-200-1R , drops a .450-.451 and it has a slightly rebated base.
works great in remingtons and colts,  whether loose or with cigaret paper cartridges.

yhs
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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2017, 06:18:59 am »

This is the special production mold that was featured in Mike Beliveauís article on Guns Of The Old West. This mold is designed to duplicate the paper cartridge bullets of the Civil War.
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Roy B
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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2017, 06:19:51 am »

C&B projectiles should be cast from PURE lead NOT 20-1 alloy or even 40-1 alloy.
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« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2017, 06:23:25 pm »

Greetings Ray -

BTW, Mike B. is "Bottom Dealin Mike" here, but he hasn't been online since April 04, 2017, 12:02:09 am

I see the mold you are using is from
http://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/johnston_and_dow__44_caliber.html



" The photo above shows an original Johnston & Dow .44 caliber bullet side by side with a new one cast from an Eras Gone bullet mold.  This original bullet was recovered from a cavalry camp near Lonoke Arkansas about 35 years ago.  Measurements taken from this bullet were used to design the Eras Gone Johnston & Dow bullet mold.


    The Eras Gone Johnston & Dow bullet weighs 217 grains, the band is .460 in diameter and the ogive just above the groove is .451.  The long heel is .428 and will fit easily into the chamber even if wrapped in cartridge paper for those who prefer to prepare combustable cartridges.  These bullets should be cast with pure, soft lead just as the originals were."

and per Mike's article,
"today's reproduction revovlers are not made to the same dimensions as the original 19th century revolvers."


so - to make this work, you will have to
- modify the revolvers chambers, "loading area", and "bullet seating ram" ( per mike's article)
- use pure lead as per the mold maker
- use the thinnest papers possible
- probably size the bullet down to fit your chamber mouths

to assist further, I would like to direct you to several threads covering paper cartridges on the CAS City forums:

pay special attention to the posts by SGT John Chapman - especially this one - One of the iconic and most referenced threads is the one by Sgt John Chapman wherein he details not only the manufacture and use of said paper cartridges (specifically for the Colt 1860) but in addition he makes hysterically correct "pullstring" catridges boxes!

You will also find threads addressing the manufacture of paper cartridges for the Rifled Musket and the Sharps Percussion breachloader.

ahhhh in fact (I had to go look) this is covered under the "Dark Arts"  "Child Board" here as a permanent sticky.
(of course, permanent is in the eyes of the beholder .... )

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9695.0.html
 
and these
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,57072.0.html

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,37269.25.html


hope this helps

prof marvel
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2017, 08:37:20 pm »

Prof, thank you very much for the advice on how to move forward with this project. Iíll review what you posted...  onward and forward
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Roy B
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 07:04:12 am »

Ok....hereís where I ended up.....

Chambers reamed to .450........ bullets sized to .452

Now they fit easily but tight enough to not move under recoil.

Looks like Iím good to go....

Thanks everyone for the advise
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Roy B
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 02:56:13 am »

My Good Roy -
Sounds like you are on a winning streak for replicating the original  conical loads.
According to The Ancient Sage Elmer Kieth , those pointy conicals had extreme penetration, which did not do
so well against 2 legged combatants but worked rather well against bears and such.

Please post your results and any photos! I am looking forward to following your efforts.

yhs
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2017, 08:58:34 pm »

I think I heard somewhere that BDM had so health issues.  I used to have his email, but can't find it.  Anyone else have it and can check with him?
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« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2017, 07:46:17 pm »

I really got my pistol shooting great. Reaming the cylinders and sizing the bullets works. But the best advice was using rolling papers. Rolling papers a cardboard wad in a greased cookie in the gun just runs and runs. Looks like Iím good to go for some paper cartridge shooting.
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Roy B
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« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2017, 10:31:29 pm »

Great news Roy!

I have tried newsprint, cigaret papers, typewriter paper, xerox copy paper, and the ancient "green bar printer paper".
I tried them "as is" and nitrated. My best results were with nitrated newsprint, a compromise between the too-thin
cigaret papers and "everything else" which was too thick. 

So I better get myself down to the beauty shoppe and pick up some of those rolling papers to try.

yhs
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2017, 03:35:52 pm »

Perffesser "M".

Your gonna look so good.  Make sure they use the BIG rollers.  Makes ya fluffy (I heard)
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