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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: New black powder convert had fun today! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: New black powder convert had fun today!  (Read 1814 times)
TomcatPC
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« on: April 23, 2018, 08:42:37 pm »


Hello
Got the first chance to take my Cimarron/Uberti Model-P/Cattleman .44 WCF to an outdoor range today.  I took 100 smokeless and 100 Black Powder cartridges and never did get around to shooting any of the smokeless cartridges.
Had too much fun with the black!!!  Yes it was dirty and I had to take it apart and clean up a bit, but well worth it.

I will save the smokeless for indoor ranges, where I got scolded for being a naughty lad and shooting a few black powder loads indoors...

These loads where a 2.2cc Lee Dipper (that size seems to work just perfect for me with a .44 WCF) of Goex FFG over a 200 grain bullet.
I think next time I buy gunpowder I might go with the FFFG?  I choose the FFG in case I got around loading for my Martini-Henry this century and for loading shotgun shells.  However I think I will be shooting more black powder so might as well accept it and get more!!!
Mark
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hellgate
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2018, 11:07:36 pm »

From what I've read, the FFg is about the grain size used in the 44 WCF original BP loads. I believe that Fg was what went into the musket loads. FFFg might give a little sharper recoil than the FFg loads. BP when confined to a cartridge is pretty easy to ignite so I'd go with the FFg loads if it were me.
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"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2018, 01:07:41 pm »

As a rule of thumb, anything 45 Cal and over gets FFg and anything 45 Cal and smaller gets FFFg.  In other words, 45 Cal is the crossover point and either granulation will give good performance.  For 44 Cal I use FFFg but I have no doubt that FFg would do just fine at SASS distances.  For Scattergun loads I prefer FFg and even shoot some Fg in my 10ga guns.

Make smoke and enjoy the company.  This ain't Dodge City.

DD-MDA
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TomcatPC
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2018, 10:02:02 pm »

I think the next time I am at a location that sells Black Powder I am going to buy some FFFG?  I shoot .38 S&W a bit and could see trying it out in it's original load.  Even if I don't own a .38 S&W Revolver that is meant for Black Powder, I can see finding one in the future.
Anyway, having fun with this.
Mark
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2018, 11:15:34 am »


You will find The True Powder, APP and Black MZ are addictive.  Resistance is Futile.  You will be Assimilated.   Grin
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TomcatPC
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2018, 09:32:55 pm »

Fine with me...
Mark
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TomcatPC
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2018, 08:04:03 pm »

I found a local source for real Black Powder today.  I picked up a pound of FFFG.  The next time I load .44 WCF I will use FFFG.
Think I might have created a monster!!!
Mark
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wildman1
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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2018, 02:37:11 pm »

With todays powders you can use whatever you want to achieve different results.
3f- a little sharper noise when fired not as much smoke.
2f- a little deeper boom than 3f a little more smoke.
reenactor or harzer powder- a lot more flame, a lot more smoke really great for nite shoots or if you just like being OBNOXIOUS, IT IS ALSO CONSIDERABLY LESS EXPENSIVE THAN THE OTHER GRADES OF POWDER.
wM1
you will note I did not mention 4f as it is for pan priming in flintlocks
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Lefty Dude
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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2018, 03:28:41 pm »

I hear that 4F is wonderful in 32's. Just a rumor you understand.

Any one tried 4F in a 36 cal C&B revolver ? I again here some do it.
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2018, 08:46:56 am »

Howdy Lefty,

Once upon a time I did try FFFFg in a ROA.  I filled the chambers with all the powder I could get in and still seat the ball deep enough that the cylinder could turn.  When I torched it off I noticed that the hammer was recocked and the cylinder rotated.  I pulled the trigger again and vwala! I had me a semi auto revolver.  After I emptied the gun I noticed blood running from my forehead.  The caps had come back thru the hammer port and hit me in the face.  Yes, I had glasses on.  Thus, I've learned that there are limits to what you can do with black powder.  Don't ever try this experiment without a full face shield.  In fact, don't try it at all.

DD-MDA
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hellgate
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2018, 11:13:20 am »

That's interesting DD, to say the least. I have a Lyman BP manual that lists all kinds of FFFFg loads for revolvers. (3 minute pause while I run downstairs). Yeah, Lyman Black Powder Handbook 10th printing 1992. It shows up to 41grs GOEX FFFFg for the ROA w/.457 RB @1036fps. Also there's a Curtis & Harvey 4F load of 41grs and 1021FPS. No pressures are mentioned for the ROA but multiple loads for the 1860 Army and Colt Navy with 4F are listed with Lead Units of Pressure (LUP) including 155gr cast bullets/conicals in the 44s. Max LUP load listed for the 44s was 8820 LUPs w/28grs +155gr bullet. 37grs FFFFg Goex +.451 ball gave 960 FPS @ 7420 LUP. Were you using hard lead?
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"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

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wildman1
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2018, 07:15:07 pm »

The manufacturers of BP specifically say that 4f is for flintlock priming only.
wM1
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medic15al
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2018, 05:37:54 pm »

BAAAAHH!  What do manufacturers know?!?      Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2018, 04:41:20 pm »

Howdy Hellgate,

I was chambering DD/ROA 45-210 bullets lube sized to .454.  The same load with RB wouldn't have developed as much pressure.  The pressure didn't hurt the ROA a bit but it did blow the caps off and back thru the hammer port.  The pressure was enough to cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder.  The cap came back and embedded itself in my forehead.  Blood ran.  I didn't repeat the load.

DD-MDA
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2018, 01:43:04 pm »

I don't know why anyone would want to use FFFF for loose powder loading in a C&B or in loading metallic cartridges when FF and FFF are available. Even if not readily available, using FFFF grade isn't a safe practice. You don't put diesel fuel in your gas powered vehicle or vice versa if one isn't available. From reports and written material available doesn't sound like a safe practice. Sure, you might do it and get away with it (for awhile), but you can also drive a vehicle a 100 mph down a gravel road and get away with it (for awhile), but disaster will catch up with you in the end. I did see the end result once of a idiot who did attempt to do 100 mph+ on a gravel road once while a LEO, didn't work out to good for him or his passengers.

The manufacturers of BP specifically say that 4f is for flintlock priming only.
wM1

Shooters take heed. "May not have a harmonious outcome" if ya try to use other than for priming. New shooters to using black don't take this post of using FFFF grade powder for loading as 'the thing to do'! Old time shooters and posters to this forum, IMO, suggesting or promoting using FFFF for loading black powder firearms or in those that may be strong enough to use either black or smokeless isn't a good idea-may give those who aren't aware of consequences, restrictions, etc, the idea to do so is OK. IMO suggesting to do so or the possibility to do so is irresponsible. Of course there may be or will be the tough tobacco chewing, 4-wheel drive, beer guzzling, macho, I can and will do anything types who will do it and decry anyone who says anything against it.

My 2 cents and sticking with it. CC
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TomcatPC
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2018, 05:28:31 pm »

I found a 70's era GOEX FFG tin at an antique shop for $10 today, best news is that it is almost full!
Mark
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2018, 10:00:44 pm »

Howdy Lefty,

Once upon a time I did try FFFFg in a ROA.  I filled the chambers with all the powder I could get in and still seat the ball deep enough that the cylinder could turn.  When I torched it off I noticed that the hammer was recocked and the cylinder rotated.  I pulled the trigger again and vwala! I had me a semi auto revolver.  After I emptied the gun I noticed blood running from my forehead.  The caps had come back thru the hammer port and hit me in the face.  Yes, I had glasses on.  Thus, I've learned that there are limits to what you can do with black powder.  Don't ever try this experiment without a full face shield.  In fact, don't try it at all.

DD-MDA

I tried a full house load of Swiss 4f pushing a 210g conical..........turned out to be a nothing burger.  Felt like I was shooting 38 spls.

For big kaBOOM with the OA, I found a 50/50 split of 4f/2f fueling that 210g conical worked best.  4f in first, topped off with 2f.  I found more kaBOOM with that then just using 3f.
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« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2018, 03:55:39 pm »

Or you could MIX the 4F and 2F to settle 4F grains between the 2Fs and get a denser load.
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"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

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Bunk
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« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2018, 06:14:23 pm »

Or you could just say "Bubba, hold my beer and watch this".
In my opinion this is not a forum for dangerous or stupid posts.
It is a forum where new shooters can clean good, safe. intelligent information.
I once flew an airplane through a tree top. Was it smart? NO!
Would I recommend it to any one. NO!
But I got away with it one time. note ONE TIME and ruined a perfectly new clean set of shorts in the process.

FFFFg powder is for priming rock lock guns and in very small (under .30 caliber) gums ONLY. To promote otherwise is, in my pinion, a wrongful use of this forum and misinforms new shooters. FFFg is the minimum granulation to use in anything under .45 caliber then move to FFg and that is that.
Gee whiz guys a modicum of intelligence here is badly needed.
Bunk
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2018, 10:24:12 am »

Ho Bunk,

My bowler hat's off to you.  No, we don't want to tease the dragon and this forum is NOT the place for macho or bravado.  I related my sad performance to illustrate a point and now I'm thinkn' it might be better campfire talk.

DD-MDA
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2018, 10:34:15 am »

@ Bunk and Dick- I'm going to say that Dick's tale was not intended to inspire anyone. Instead, it offers a glimpse at what can happen, when you try to use what you aren't supposed to.
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Bunk
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« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2018, 12:07:30 pm »

Capt Quirk,
Exactly correct and like DD says "don't tease the dragon".
Just burned a few rounds guns clean and put away. Great way to spend the morning.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Roger bacon said it best in 1242 and stand still today
"When the flame of powder toucheth the  soul of man, it burns exceeding deep"
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hellgate
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2018, 04:27:36 pm »

Well, Lyman had those loads in multiple printings  for 10+ years. I would have expected them to have caught hell over it if it were a consistent hazard. Their pressures were not excessive or they wouldn't have put those loads in their manual on BP. I guess everybody's mileage varies.
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"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

SASS#3302L
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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2018, 09:16:11 pm »

I think I tag along with DD and Bunk here ---"dont tease the dragon"

Just cuz it was once in a book dont make it automatically a good idea - if we go back 25 to 45 years some of the information (load dats) in some of those old reloading manuals was downright dangerous - and time has proved that. So the wheel turns, lawyers climb aboard the bandwagon, and now we maybe too far in tother direction - who knows ? (till its too late - that is after the kaboom)

Nuther thing with black powder is what is 3F ? what is 4f ?  .... there still is a lot of confusion about granulation and what actually is in there - what size grains make up the grade on the can ?
Black powder also not allasame - when I started out we could get Curtiss and Harveys and Goex -- the C&H was about 30% LESS pressure (and lose some velocity) for a given load than Goex (so Goex was HOT - velocity and pressure) these days we see similar differences in Wano versus Swiss - so 4F Wano in a pistol is gonna be like 3F or 2an half F  Swiss ---- they different!!!!

Some fellers are under the spell of the myth that says we cant generate enough pressure with blackpowder to cause any harm in a gun ---baloney !!    (I would say Bull$h#T but the word police proly delete it)   
The blackpowder dragon is a sleepy old dude but if we tease him enough - he wake up and when he does he breathe fire and smoke that can cause awesome results. 
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