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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: choices 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Bunk Stagnerg
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« on: November 26, 2017, 05:47:00 pm »


Hello the Camp
Since I am almost finished with my store of Du Pont FFFG the powder bunker needs a refill.

For Cowboy Action shooting in Frontier Cartridge category is Olde E. or Swiss worth the difference in price than the standard GOEX branded product? I know GOEX makes Old E. as a competitor for Swiss and is made in the USA.

I suspect not but curiosity makes me ask. Most of this goes powder through .45 Cowboy Special cases and .44 percussion revolvers.
 
A source for APP without the dreaded “hazmat” is a one-hundred-mile round trip and I can’t go that far for thirty-five or forty bucks
.
Someone said the only dumb question is the one not asked.

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Bunk
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greyhawk
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2017, 08:41:52 pm »

Hello the Camp
Since I am almost finished with my store of Du Pont FFFG the powder bunker needs a refill.

For Cowboy Action shooting in Frontier Cartridge category is Olde E. or Swiss worth the difference in price than the standard GOEX branded product? I know GOEX makes Old E. as a competitor for Swiss and is made in the USA.

I suspect not but curiosity makes me ask. Most of this goes powder through .45 Cowboy Special cases and .44 percussion revolvers.
 
A source for APP without the dreaded “hazmat” is a one-hundred-mile round trip and I can’t go that far for thirty-five or forty bucks
.
Someone said the only dumb question is the one not asked.

Respectfully submitted
Bunk


Bunk
I shot a lot of GOEX over the years - a friend had a contact in the Pyro business and he used to get a 50lb pack of GOEX 5FA ug ungraphited - we would take half each - he chrono tested about 12% increased velocity compared to regular FFF (equal weight charge) which would put it right up there beside swiss (I believe) - we got consistent velocity - I still have some of it that I have saved for my long range (sharps) -- however all of this came from the Moosic Pa plant before it blew - sometime in the 1990's ? - We have not seen GOEX downunder since (worse luck!!) - subsisted off of chinee pyro powder for some time, now we get the choice of Wano or Swiss -- Wano is so far behind that old Goex its no contest - Swiss is very spendy
Pyro powder is cheaper - we were sourcing it for close to half price of the one pound can rifle powder - for cheaper you get untidy - its not as well graded - was not a problem with 5FA goex - was a problem with 4FA chinese - easily taken care of with a set of screens tho. I decided to go the homebrew route - in your boots I would go goex - but If you inclined to accumulate a stash - think about a 50lb bag of 5FA ? The only thing will be different is the even ness of granulation - ifn they come out of the same plant the recipe will be the same. Dont know whether ya can do that - might be some pen pusher gets in the way ?
cheers   
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Lucky R. K.
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2017, 09:09:20 pm »


Bunk, for the pistols I would buy the cheapest real black powder you can find. If you use bullets with a large grease groove filled with a black powder lube you will have no problems. I use APP for shotgun only. I don't like for Pistol or rifle. There is no fouling but a residue that gums up everything.

Lucky

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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2017, 09:51:13 pm »

I've tried many and found Schuetzen black powder to be a fine bp for all my needs except long range.  For that I prefer OE or Swiss.

DD-MDA
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greyhawk
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2017, 10:45:06 pm »

I've tried many and found Schuetzen black powder to be a fine bp for all my needs except long range.  For that I prefer OE or Swiss.

DD-MDA

      Dick
Schutzen is Wano Huh
If so it needs to be a few clicks cheaper than goex to be equal value (nothing against Wano other than it lacks oooooph and is a little less clean burn than GOEX) ........ caveat .......talking about old GOEX so if 1) it got weaker in the last 20 years 2) or its got more dirtier in the last 20 years - then my comments mean nothing - lots of Wano shot out here - same comment about the long range would not find many of those guys loading it I think. Swiss is around a hundred $ per kilo -- Wano can be had for $65 - we need 35% more AU dollars to be equal yours so we proly not doin that bad. 
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wildman1
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2017, 07:10:44 am »

Schuetzen usually costs $2 a lb less than Goex.
OE costs about $2 a lb more than Goex;
The Schuetzen reenactor goes for about $5 a lb less than Goex.
I have started using SR in my pistol and shotgun loads.
I use Schuetzen in my rifle for CAS.
Old Eynsford has more moist fouling than Swiss or any of the other powders it would be the go to powder if you wanted to control fouling or shoot long strings with out fouling your gun badly, an excellent long range powder.
I shoot 50+ lbs of BP a year in FC.
Schuetzen is much cleaner burning than Goex and the fouling is softer.
wM1
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greyhawk
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2017, 08:31:24 am »

Schuetzen usually costs $2 a lb less than Goex.
OE costs about $2 a lb more than Goex;
The Schuetzen reenactor goes for about $5 a lb less than Goex.
I have started using SR in my pistol and shotgun loads.
I use Schuetzen in my rifle for CAS.
Old Eynsford has more moist fouling than Swiss or any of the other powders it would be the go to powder if you wanted to control fouling or shoot long strings with out fouling your gun badly, an excellent long range powder.
I shoot 50+ lbs of BP a year in FC.
Schuetzen is much cleaner burning than Goex and the fouling is softer.
wM1

Wildman
looks to me your update has rendered my thoughts on Goex null and void ! not to worry 1997 is a while ago
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2017, 10:00:56 am »

When the flag goes up, the ball drops or whatever, it's what you brought to the match and have on your gun cart that counts.  Fouling is a controllable issue now thanks to black powder bullets that haul enough lube to wet the muzzle.  Shot to shot consistency is your biggest concern and you can deal with that with good hand loading practices.

I really like the fact that we do have choices, and good ones, and that black powder and subs abound in  variety and available quantities.

DD-MDA 
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2017, 02:14:37 pm »


WHAT DDD Said.  PLUS ONE!!
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wildman1
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2017, 10:33:05 pm »

Those prices are from the Maine Powder House last summer.
 I will call them tomorrow and order another 25 lbs as I am getting low on powder and loaded rounds. I sometimes find myself using hard cast for my pistol loads if I am behind on casting. I will buy a couple thousand and melt the smokiless lube off of them in the oven and not relubed, then as the are loaded into my revolvers I will dip the end of the bullet into bore butter. Keeps the guns running very well and most of the fouling will wipe off with a paper towel when the match is over.
wM1
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WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2017, 04:21:19 pm »

Thanks pards
For the input. I just decided to go with GOEX because my far shot is 25 yards. GOEX is OK, available, will do the job, and the price is right.
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Bunk
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greyhawk
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2017, 05:51:04 pm »

Thanks pards
For the input. I just decided to go with GOEX because my far shot is 25 yards. GOEX is OK, available, will do the job, and the price is right.
Respectfully
Bunk

Bunk your original question led me to some entertaining reading on how NOT TO run a business - (specially a blackpowder plant) - this is a brief cut from the history of the Belin (Goex) plant up to 1997 --- its a classic of expediency over safety and economic corner cutting (easy to point the finger afterwards I guess - but I took this excercise in large part because of the comments I get about making powder - usually along the lines of -- u r an idjit ya gonna blow yrself up - then the references to stories like this one)

"In 1986 a packing/sifting house at the Belin Plant blew up.
While the building was destroyed, there was no injury to any of the workers.
A worker was detailed to change a light switch in a packing/sifting house. The worker removed the cover from the light switch box. Then attempted to remove the screws holding the wires to the switch. The screwdriver being used to loosen one of the connecting wire screws touched the side of the switch box. There was an arc. A spark consisting of a particle of heated metal landed on a building support that was covered in powder dust. The powder dust then began to burn like a slow fuse train. The worker quickly left the building and ran to get as far away from the building as possible. An
explosion followed that involved an estimated 1,000 pounds of black powder."

So this goose stuck his screwdriver in a LIVE light switch and blew the place up!!! It must be a very damp humid site for the powder dust to burn slow enough to let him run !!!

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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2017, 06:24:26 pm »

I use Old E in my 32's because it's cleaner and in my large bore hunting loads because it gives higher velocity. For most other CAS, re enacting, and cap and ball loads I use Schuetzen. Was using KIK but wasn't able to get it last time.
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wildman1
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2017, 06:35:56 pm »

I use Old E in my 32's because it's cleaner and in my large bore hunting loads because it gives higher velocity. For most other CAS, re enacting, and cap and ball loads I use Schuetzen. Was using KIK but wasn't able to get it last time.
Same thing I do.
My pocket pistol is more accurate with OE.
Schuetzen is cleaner than Goex and costs less, about $2 per lb.
wM1
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WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 05:33:00 am »

I was speaking of 32wcf in rifle barrels. Old E has much less fouling in the small bore with a 311008 bullet. Regular old Goex I would have to clean every stage and even then accuracy suffers.
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wildman1
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 07:01:00 am »

I have seen the excess fouling in 32-20 with regular black from a couple of shooters.
wM1
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 06:20:43 pm »

I have seen the excess fouling in 32-20 with regular black from a couple of shooters.
wM1

I had John Kort, w44wcf, design a new bullet for me and I have got a mold made just haven't gotten a chance to pour any and try them.

It's essentially the old Lyman 311008 with one large lube groove instead of the two and we added a crimp groove so it is the proper AOL in Starline brass for the 1873 rifles and should pack plenty of lube to shoot all day with Old E or any other clean shooting powder.
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Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 08:01:35 pm »

I have no doubt that fouling is a problem in smaller bores, but I shoot .44 or .45 caliber guns and there is more space and less problem.
I run a wet bore snake through my 1860 Henry every 3 stages and spritz the lifter with moose milk and it keeps on running.

Just for curiosity my 1860 Army went 70 rounds of consecutive firing using 25 grains of FFFg, a lube wad and ball with out cleaning and there was no problem until the cones got so foul that the cap would not seat and needed a second strike.

This powder is used in .45 CAS cases and in single action revolvers or loose powder in cap and ball revolvers at SASS distances so minute of long horn cow (a Texas thing) is all the accuracy I need.

If it was going to be a long distance (over 100 yards) most likely a different system of load management would be used, but this ain’t rocket science so I don’t over think it, IBM it, or have a symposium on loading. Just pour in the powder and let it rip.
 
The powder used in the revolver test was GOEX and some Du Pont with a lot number from 1975 and frankly except for a lot more graphite in the Du Pont powder I could tell no difference in performance.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk
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