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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Powder Room - CAS reloading (Moderator: Professor Marvel)  |  Topic: Pyrodex loading data 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Pyrodex loading data  (Read 1469 times)
Doug.38PR
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2017, 02:18:08 pm »

Doug ......mate ......
I went to the Hogdon site
a little window in the loading chart says for pyrodex says  ""SET YOUR MEASURE on 30 grains"" (or whatever number)
down at the bottom (in red no less) is this - Note : Measure all powder charges by volume not weight

So again this is BS volume grains - there aint no sich thing but that didnt stop em!!!!
 A measure set at 30 will go easily in a 45 colt or 44/40 load - is it 30 grains weight ? Pyrodex = no way, real powder = maybe, or maybe its 29, or maybe its 31, ...... so Hogdon is talking Volumetric measure - number 30 on the measure roughly corresponds to 30 grains weight of commercial blackpowder with the normal bulkdensity - whatever that is???     

Is there something wrong if I say: "I'm confused".   Like you say, there is no such thing.   Why are they estimating volume based on the weight of a completely different compound of powder?    That's confusing and dangerous.

"Confused" and "reloading" should never be used in the same sentence, in my mind.  But I've been muzzle loading my Pietta Navy .36 for over 15 years now and typically load it up to the rim, as told in the store, pack it down with a wad to prevent "chainfire" and then drive the ball down into the cylinder.  Ready to go.   This is using Cleanshot and American Pioneer.   Pyrodex is another BP sub.   Never had a failure or a KABOOM in this way.

To my understanding, for simple plain ordinary layman terms, for cartridge loading, you load the case to the point just above where the base of the bullet is going to be so as to allow a reasonable amount of compression to the powder (sub or black), seat and crimp the bullet and viola, you have a round.  You have the proper volume that takes up the case.   In this case it amounts to, roughly, 25 grains (weight), of Pyrodex.    Is this correct or not?
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greyhawk
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2017, 08:07:29 pm »

Is there something wrong if I say: "I'm confused".   Like you say, there is no such thing.   Why are they estimating volume based on the weight of a completely different compound of powder?    That's confusing and dangerous.

"Confused" and "reloading" should never be used in the same sentence, in my mind.  But I've been muzzle loading my Pietta Navy .36 for over 15 years now and typically load it up to the rim, as told in the store, pack it down with a wad to prevent "chainfire" and then drive the ball down into the cylinder.  Ready to go.   This is using Cleanshot and American Pioneer.   Pyrodex is another BP sub.   Never had a failure or a KABOOM in this way.

To my understanding, for simple plain ordinary layman terms, for cartridge loading, you load the case to the point just above where the base of the bullet is going to be so as to allow a reasonable amount of compression to the powder (sub or black), seat and crimp the bullet and viola, you have a round.  You have the proper volume that takes up the case.   In this case it amounts to, roughly, 25 grains (weight), of Pyrodex.    Is this correct or not?

What u r doin is fine - how it was supposed to work
Think simple --- think of this as a marketing excercise - they got a new product (1947 or whenever it was invented)
they gotta sell it to guys that dont need it - they haveta displace whatever those guys are already using - blackpowder
So number one they tell this story - it burns cleaner - ya dont haveta clean yr gun soon as ya finish shootin - attractive argument werent it ? we found out later it was a bunch of pony poop - and the stuff is actually more corrosive - yr gun is harder to clean - and its more likely to turn into a rusted out sewer pipe than using blackpowder init .
number two - dont have to change a thing with yr loading - just pour Pyrodex into the same measure you was already usin for blackpowder - simple eh!

So where did grains weight come from ??
more marketing maybe? 25 grains weight of pyrodex does the same velocity as 35 of blackpowder? really proves our new stuff is waybetter than that old fangled stuff you been usin
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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2017, 09:00:51 am »

Thanks for the assurance.  That pryro sure is powerful

Speaking of cleaning pyrodex, i just overdid it.  I was cleaning one chamber thatbhad “lead” or pyro residue in it and instead of itgetting darker like the otger chambers, it was getting whiter.  Turned out I was taking bluing off tge inside of the chamber.  I was using Hopps Powder Solvent and vinegar.    So I have one chamber with the front that is kind of grayish white on the inside now.  Not a big deal, the rest of the gun has a lot of holster wear and I got it for a knock down drag out outdoor gun. 
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Abilene
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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2017, 12:37:08 pm »

The problem is that "grains" can mean weight or volume.  There are volumetric powder measures that are marked in "grains".  I think if they had from the beginning marked those with "CC's" then there would be less confusion.  But they didn't.

Greyhawk, may I make a suggestion?  I tend not to read some of your responses on various threads when you reply inside the quote box.  It is difficult to tell what you wrote versus what the quoted person says.  If you do respond inside the box, if you change your text to a different color and/or bold, it would help a lot.  Thanks!
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2017, 01:19:51 pm »

 Ya Greyhawk, Straighten up will ya!!  Roll Eyes    Fly upside down like the rest of us  Shocked

No ..... really ...... it is hard to read.  Sorta like translating pyroglyphics into zerbokroaton.  Or Something.  Grin
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2017, 08:47:10 pm »

Abilene nailed it -
these days for pistols and ML at least, the convention is to measure BP and subs "by volume".
If we stuck to CC's as the new Lee scoops are measured it would be easier, but hey ....

Doug - just FYI "in general"  Pyro has 10-20 % more "oomph" than BP . and Triple 7 has a bit more than that.

And you do not need to use vinegar to clean the pyro residue, just lots of water and maybe some soap.
the perchlorate salts dissolve in water, but not vinegar or chemical solvents. It is important to wash away the salts with
water even before squirting with 10w40 or any oil since the oil can trap the ick and allow it to continue corroding.

I happen to use hot water from the tap because it works fine and doesn't freeze my hands off.
Scrub a dub, brass brush, water, a little soap, patches. Thank Gawd It ain't rocket surgery .

yhs
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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2017, 09:34:02 pm »

10-20%?!   Wow.  And safe to use in a SAA or clone or Toggle link lever action. 

As far as cleaning goes, i guess i get a little overly concerned.  All these years of cleaning black subs off my 1851 Navy, putting it tge safe for a few months and taking it out with rust and junk on it even though i thought i cleaned it thorough of Cleanshot
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2017, 04:15:35 am »

10-20%?!   Wow.  And safe to use in a SAA or clone or Toggle link lever action. 

As far as cleaning goes, i guess i get a little overly concerned.  All these years of cleaning black subs off my 1851 Navy, putting it tge safe for a few months and taking it out with rust and junk on it even though i thought i cleaned it thorough of Cleanshot

Yuppers. totally safe. The entire trick is the "pressure curve" plus "max pressure".
The subs are essentially a "modified gunpowder recipe" that still use charcoal and closely mimick BP's pressure curve.
This is possible since there are no nitro-based components, which make up the bulk of smokeless.
The nitro-based powders ( even or especially the ancient guncotton and other forms of nitrocellulose) conflagrate so rapidly the pressure spike will overstress lesser firearms designs.

so the basic rules with Pyro are
- measure load by volume - same volume as Black Powder.
- since it is less dense than BP you do not need to worry about it.
- clean thoroughly with water ( ie scrub with water, brass brush, patches, more brass brush, more patches.
       Soap helps, Vinegar doesn't)
- dry thoroughly well
- apply oil of choice
-check next day with clean patches. clean again if req'd

- do not use any modern fancy solvents - they do not dissolve the perchlorate salts and often just put a layer of oil over them
  so the salts can continue toattack the steel from underneath.

now, just for fun, here is the SDS (safety data sheet) for Pyro and 777 - note that 777 includes Dicyaniamide, so don't go wiffing the fumes - on burning that releases cyanide gas....

Pyro:
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/pyrodex-sds-sheet-2017.pdf

Triple-7
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/triple-seven-sds-sheet-2017.pdf

yhs
prof marvel
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Powder Room - CAS reloading (Moderator: Professor Marvel)  |  Topic: Pyrodex loading data « previous next »
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