Black MZ

[Dave T]

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My aging brain thinks it remembers reading here (Cas City Forums) that Alliant's new BP substitute Black MZ is just American Pioneer Powder repackaged under a new name. Now I can't find that comment and am asking if this is the case or, if not where Black MZ ranks among the various substitutes?

Dave

[Coffinmaker]

DT,

Black MZ joins Pinnacle,  Shocky's gold and several others as APP in a different package.  Made by the APP folks.  It is an excellent BP Substitute.  Very easy to clean up, not very corrosive and makes Beau Coup smoke.  Currently I have only seen it in a single granulation and I have not seen an "f" number applied to it.  I would treat it as ffg.  The granulation of all the APP type products is quite a bit larger than BP.

Like APP and APP Premium, it is loaded with NO compression.  Load until it just kisses the bottom of the projectile and a good crimp.  

[Dave T]

Thanks CM. In my part of the country (central AZ desert) I can't find APP anywhere. I was thinking this Alliant product might be more available and it would be a way to try this particular (APP type) black powder substitute.

Dave

[hellgate]

Sportsman's Warehouse has the best prices on it.
T

[Dave T]

Sportsman's Warehouse has the best prices on it.
T

I'm about a mile from them as the crow (or raven in our case) flies. I'll go there tomorrow and have a look see. Thanks for the tip.

Dave

[wildman1]

I called Alliant because I had a couple of questions about Black MZ.
 I was told that it likes compression. Do NOT use any lube with it. It is the same as APP 3f.
My wife uses it instead of real BP. It is less than $10 per lb. from Sportsmans Warehouse.
wM1

[Bibbyman]

I and others have found that BlackMZ is noticeably more powerful than real black.  I load about 2/3 the volume of real black in my Cowboy loads and still have a load with plenty of snap and smoke. Even the full case black powder shooters comment on how much smoke my BlackMZ loads produce.

I spoke with one guy that shoots BlackMZ loads in his 1911 45 Auto!  Full, compressed load is stout enough to cycle the action. 

I wouldn't recommend using BlackMZ in antique guns of questionable conditions. 

[Dave T]

LOL - Some say no compression, some say it likes compression. Some say treat it like FFg and another says treat it like FFFg. Since I bought a pound this morning I reckon I'll have to find out myself. (smile)

And by the way, what's this "no lube" business. Does that mean shoot unlubed cast alloy bullets with this stuff? That doesn't sound right!

Dave

[pony express]

They don't need to be lubed, but it's ok to shoot regular commercial smokeless lubed bullets with it.

[Bibbyman]

I use water to clean and when dry, use Thompson Bore Butter on a patch to protect bore, etc.  Lately, I've use a damp bore snake, followed by brush, then dry patch, then Bore Butter.

[Coffinmaker]

Dave T

Black MZ and APP based propellants REQUIRE no lube.  You can use lube, but you do not need to.  You can shoot bullets with smokeless lube, or you can shoot bullets "as cast."  Doesn't matter

The residue left behind after firing serves as a lubricant.  It also is not cumulative.  Each round fired removes the previous firing's residue.  At the end of a 6 stage match, there is no more residue in the bore than there was after the first stage.

BP and Subs are loaded by volume.  FFFg APP is loaded exactly like FFF Goex.  By volume.  Same same FFg.  If you scooping 1.3cc of FFFg you also scoop 1.3cc of FFg.  Your 1.3cc scoop will throw 1.3cc no matter what the "f" count is.  You can of course, play with your specific volume of powder depending on what you want to accomplish.  Dropping the amount of powder will require an amount of filler to make up for the reduced amount of powder so you still wind up with 1.3cc in the chamber (If that is where your seating your ball).

Ain't guns FUN!!!

[wildman1]

LOL - Some say no compression, some say it likes compression. Some say treat it like FFg and another says treat it like FFFg. Since I bought a pound this morning I reckon I'll have to find out myself. (smile)

And by the way, what's this "no lube" business. Does that mean shoot unlubed cast alloy bullets with this stuff? That doesn't sound right!

Dave

Before I would believe anything about it I would call the tech reps at Aliant.
 That's what I did.
OR read the loading instructions on the bottle.
Says "seat the bullet FIRMLY on the powder".
"Use NO lube".
wM1

[hellgate]

My impression of APP/Black MZ is that it has about the same UMPH as BP in my 357mag pistol loads. I usually shoot 777 which is snappier than any BP or other sub but I can't tell the difference in recoil between the other powders. To me, it is a soft shooting powder. It could be that the coarse grains put less weight per volume of powder in the small case and thus less energy.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I have not had the chance to use MKZ yet .
Just because I have so much APP on hand .
But I am going to give it a try the next time I need to buy some powder .
It sound good and at 1\2 the price of APP.

Rooster Ron Wayne

[Bibbyman]

I ran two tests with BlackMZ vs Grafs Reenactor and BlackMZ vs Goex FFg.   I shot 30 rounds each through a pair of Taylor's Smoke Wagons in 44WCF gunfighter style.

Here is a video of the BlackMZ vs Grafs Reenactor.

https://youtu.be/O9KqK1laIpw

Here is the video of BlackMZ vs Goex FFg.

https://youtu.be/3N33aSNLnCk

[Dave T]

Bibbyman,

Thanks for doing those videos and for posting them. Informative.

On the subject of Black MZ, has anyone shooting it chronographed their loads to see how it compares to BP in velocity (same bullet same volume of powder)?

Dave

[Dave T]

Well, to answer my own question, I chronographed two different Black MZ loads this morning behind 256g RNFP bullets from Montana Bullet Works. One load was from the 1.9cc dipper, the volume equivalent of 28g FFg or 30g FFFg. The second load was with the 2.2cc dipper and is the volume equivalent of 30g FFg or 35g FFFg. With this last one I was hoping to get the same performance I got 25 years ago shooting 35g-36g of FFFG behind a 255g bullet.

The 1.9cc load was pleasant to shoot but a bit disappointing in performance. From my 7.5" USFA I got an average of 842 fps. From a 5.5" USFA I got 749 fps for an average. And finally my 3" Sheriff's Model delivered 659 fps for 5 shots.

I was more hopeful with the 2.2cc loads and almost got it right. The 7.5" barrel averaged 916 fps, very close to what I used to get with 35g of FFFg. The 5.5" barrel was disappointing with only a 831 fps average. The 3" managed to break 700 but not by much with a 711 fps average.

One thing obvious with all the testing I did was the wide extreme spread I was getting. Over 50 fps with every load in every gun and the disappointing 5.5" test with the 2.2cc load had an extreme spread of 85 fps. This indicates to me my dipping technique needs some improvement, or I need to find a more accurate way to dispense Black MZ. Any suggestions from you all would be greatly appreciated.

Dave

[hellgate]

You might want to try a traditional powder flask and do the EXACT amount of shaking before letting up on the valve so you get the same agitation to settle the powder in the spout. I do that for when I load BMZ in the .357. The grains size onf the BMZ is pretty coarse and you may need to settle it when dispensing. Dipping doesn't allow much for settling.

As for using a powder measure like my Redding, I have found that some of the synthetics (APP, Black Mag3, Black Canyon) are corrosive to the iron drum and need cleaning out after every use in the rotating powder measure.
An electronic scale and a powder dribbler might work too. Dip a little less powder and finish the weight with a powder trickler then load into the case. That should smooth out the variable FPS findings.

[Bunk]

Yesterday I ran some Black MZ through my .44 "Coffinmaker" snubbies. Using a recommended 12.5 weighed grains and a round ball there was a big boom, plenty of smoke and a loud "Klang" with every hit on the the target.
Cleanup was a wonder with two patches wet with moose milk, a dry one and a patch wet with Ballistol and DONE!
I may start cleaning after shooting GOEX FFFg with a cylinder full of APP and save on cleaning time. If I was not well supplied with GOEX and the supply of APP is 100 mile round trip I would go with any one of the APP products no matter the name.
At least that was my experience YMMV
Hold Center
Bunk

[smokin6]

just got done making about 200 paper cartridges with it. Great stuff. Very easy to make as no need for lubes & stuff. works great.

[Coffinmaker]

Just to add a tiny little point.  Black MZ is manufactured by the APP folks.  It is of a slightly different formulation with all of the same APP easy to use properties.  Really GOOD stuff.

[Major 2]

just before Sportsman's Warehouse Gander Mountain went belly up here in Florida... I bought the remaining jars of Shockey’s  Gold they had (3)

I load on the press though a funnal & a lee dipper dribbling in  , as it will bridge if you just dump it ...
I fill the case just to light compression....

EDIT :  Brain fade I wrote Sportsman Warehouse    I meant Gander Mountain we don't have SW in Florida  DoH !

[Bibbyman]

just got done making about 200 paper cartridges with it. Great stuff. Very easy to make as no need for lubes & stuff. works great.

Might want to keep an eye on your cartridges if you're not shooting them up right away.  It draws humidity like a sponge and may turn into grease.

[Crow Choker]

OK, I'm going to pull what one of our beloved CAS members does from time to time (love it when he does it by the way) and enter a fray I have no bone in other than reading the posted comments. I have no time for any black powder subs, none, notta, zero. When I shoot, burn, use, any propellant in any of my percussion, metallic conversion, or muzzleloader it's good Ol' Real FF or FFF black powder, mostly GOEX.  Like the smell of it, the boom, any flash, and the nostalgia of the stuff. I've been around the wanna-be subs and they stink, don't care how much fan fare any of ya post about easy cleanup and they "ain't" original. Cleaning my percussion and conversions isn't much different than cleaning any of my smokeless guns, except the percussion ones in and around the nipple area of the cylinders. Real PITA, detest it every time but do it. Figured the clothes, firearms, and accessory Nazi's would be screaming about shooters using the subs (Ahha'- the "period correct" crowd).  Cleaning firearms and brass using real original black is part of the process of shooting, ya can't stay dry going swimming or not get yer hands dirty plantin yer garden. I did use a sub once as I was given a partial can by a fellow shooter-didn't see any advantage in the fowling or the firearm or any cleanup. Nothing but a sales promotion by the manufacturer IMO.

 Not tryin to ruffle any feathers or put anyone down, but when real black is available, can't see using the wanna-be's. If and if some Nazi/Commie bunch in Wash DC figure and deem we responsible shooters shouldn't have real black powder available to us and outlaw the sale to the public (sound familiar) AND only allow the sale and use of subs, well guess I don't shoot or will have to start using subs. I detest cottage cheese and unflavored yogurt, but if I had nothing else and was starving-would chow down. Then again I had high school and college chemistry, even made some black powder once in lab to the horror of the lab professor. (Told about that in my first ever post on this forum). Was some pretty good stuff after the 4th try or so at it. Not that complicated or hard to do, just a PITA doing any quantity IMO, but can be done. Some have posted here about making it-stay away from doing so-like to stay healthy, but it can be done. Well, I'll punch out, just postin my thoughts on the subject. I know some thoughts and possible rebuttal's may be "ya don't have to use it if ya don't like it, mind your own business, pound sand Crow Choker, who asked you C.C"., etc, etc. Just thought I'd post my opinion on the stuff and question of the day. Besides like our own beloved CAS CITY resident who I'd love to spend a day shootin and jawin' with often posts and states he was bored. I was to this early morning, its rainin out and I haven't wound up my ambition spring to do any thing else. "Guten Tag" my CAS CITY friends. 

[Dave T]

Since I started this thread I thought I might be the one to respond to ol' C.C. Back when I was shooting original, 1st Gen Colt SAAs, and dressing as accurately as I could, I shot GOEX exclusively, and did so for the better part of 10 years. Had to give up all that and sold the guns and stuff that went with them (long story).

I'm 25+ years older and all busted up and hurting from a vigorous life in my youth (lol). When I came back into Old West guns it was just to go shooting once in a while as I can no longer compete. I can't afford 1st Gen Colts anymore and barely afforded the USFAs I now have.

I've gone looking for BP and none of the retailers in my area carry it anymore. Too afraid of the liability, as I was told by the guy at Sportsman's Warehouse. All they carry are substitutes and Black MZ is about the cheapest @ $9.99/pound. All the reports I've read about it made it sound like a good alternative so I asked some questions. This isn't the only thread I've started on the subject and I'm learning as I go.

I've now progressed to shooting some loads and chronographing them to see what's going on. For the most part the Black MZ is performing satisfactorily, for my intended purpose and circumstances.

If that offends you Mr. CC I do apologize. However, I am not offended by your choice of propellent and wish you the very best, and good shooting. I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

Dave