Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 17, 2018, 02:21:39 pm

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  USFA CSS (Moderator: Capt. John Fitzgerald)  |  Topic: USFA or Uberti? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: USFA or Uberti?  (Read 4901 times)
markg44
Active citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2018, 11:11:15 am »

Don't know if the internals were usa or not. The dealer thought it to be all usa ,I didn't bother to argue the point, I wasn't going to buy it anyway. The prices on these are crazy. Although we don't see many USFA in my area.
Logged
tabs
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2018, 12:40:48 am »

This is my first post on this Board, and I just had to make comment on this Thread about USFA's. I have been collecting a wide variety of this kind of stuff since late 1979. Out at the Shot Show in Vegas I stopped by to talk to the USFA crew I believe in 06 where they took some pictures of myself which even showed up on their website. At one time I owned an original Bisley Flattop that had been expertly restored, but I sold it in 08 partially thinking I wanted to shoot one and a USFA Bislley FT would be a better choice. Later I sold a no finish original Bisley and was going to use the money for the USFA. Imagine my surprised chagrin when I went looking for USFA, only to find they were in business no more (I even called Turnibill). Since then while not a top priority I have seen only one USFA Flattop Bisley and that was a long time ago at Amoskeag where my bid through Proxibid failed to register and the hammer dropped, sold to someone else. That did not make me happy and Jason Devine got ear full of unhappiness. A Bisley FT has remained on my bucket list and as such I saw a USFA FT SA in 45 go at Cordiers (along with a bunch of others, all selling at the same price as the SA FT) in late June of 18. I was the under bidder on that one as there is a line in the sand on stuff and that a Uberti Bisley FT in the box was on the Retta Pass auction list for July of 18. So I am the proud owner of a Uberti FT Bisley in 45 LC. I felt it was time to pony up to the table and fulfill a Bucket list want so I stepped up to the plate and went for it for better or worse, (as those Bisley FT's are not made by Uberti nor anyone else at the moment and God only knows when another one will show up?).

Now to be a little more on topic about Uberti made parts in USFA's and the ambiguity in determining all American made ones. While I really liked the quality of the USFA guns and thought I might like to acquire a couple of them.  After reading this Thread I have to say why bother trying to digest all of that information that only an advanced collector is going to become knowledgeable enough to separate the American from the Italian? If pricing is based upon that determination, it becomes a real big liability in having to learn all that stuff and possibly making a costly mistake. One suspects that sooner or later it will not really matter as a USFA will be a USFA. However my thinking after reading this Thread is why chase that rabbit down the hole, there are far better alternatives in the same price range as the USFA. Namely bonafide Colt SA 3rd Generations or even 2nd gens, you have a lot less hassle to contend with.  Then there is having a gussied up Uberti for a steep price when you can have the plain Jane Uberti for a lower price. So unless you want the specialty of an original style FT SA or Bisley why bother?
Logged
yahoody
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 915



« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2018, 01:09:53 am »

Quote from: tabs
......... One suspects that sooner or later it will not really matter as a USFA will be a USFA. …….. Namely bonafide Colt SA 3rd Generations or even 2nd gens, you have a lot less hassle to contend with. …...

If you don't know or want to take the time to find out the differences between a Uberti and a USFA USA made gun  might as well buy anything you want.  Good luck to you.  Some  it will make a difference to, others it won't.

Same issue with third Gen Colts.  Some are OK, others are better.  2nds are generally a safe bet.  But still not as good  as the later  USFA guns in some folks opinion.  USA made UsFA are the cream of the crop..Colt included there.

More recently the  current Uberti guns by any importer are dang nice guns.  One thing guaranteed...nothing ever stays the same.
Logged

"time leaves tombstones or dry bones"  SASS #2903
LonesomePigeon
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 368


« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2018, 11:26:51 am »

A 100% American made USFA's will always be more valuable than an Italian or mixed Italian/American USFA of the same model. The differences are too important and too many people know about them for them to ever be viewed as equal in value to an informed collector. I admit it can be confusing because USFA had so many different models and serial number ranges. It's hard to go wrong with a recent production Uberti, they are very good guns for the price.
Logged
Dave T
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 255


« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2018, 01:33:33 pm »

You said the quality of a USFA gun is no better than a 3rd Gen Colt. When talking about the late production USFAs with all US parts that is not true. Not even for the 2nd Generation. On that breed of USFA the fit and finish is on par with the 1st Generation Colt, the standard by which all things single action are judged.

Over on the Colt Forum a stunning 1913 1st Gen Colt was pictured and the asking price was over $16,000. Getting that kind of quality in a USFA for even $2000 is a bargain to someone who appreciates it. If you don't...order Italian take out.

Dave
Logged
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4787


« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2018, 03:43:10 pm »


I should probably leave this one alone, but I just can't help myself.  There is absolutely NO 1st gen Colt worth 16 Grand.  That is what is commonly called INSANE money for a lump of steel.  Not even if there was provenance it was owned by some incredibly renowned period Hero.  Of course, this is only my personal opinion.  It is also my personal opinion current USFA prices are artificially inflated by mindless "Collectors" who absolutely "must" have something.  We hear all the time .... buy a Colt.  Own a piece of History.  Horse Puckey.  Unless, again owned by some incredible famous individual, all it is ... just another Colt.  If it's a 3rd generation, it's also a Replicant.  There is nothing about a USFA that elevates it to "must be worship'd status."  It's just another Single Action.  Same same recent manufacture Colt.
Logged
yahoody
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 915



« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2018, 03:58:23 pm »

I agree with much of what you have said Coffinmaker, but not all.   Grin

Logged

"time leaves tombstones or dry bones"  SASS #2903
tabs
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2018, 04:22:38 pm »

The question becomes would a single Italian part effect the value of an otherwise all American parts gun? The apparent answer that I gather from this Thread is yes it would. Since it seems that there was no rhyme nor reason as to the mixing and matching of parts you would have to be knowledgeable about the differences in each of the parts and each gun would have to be individually evaluated. You might say USFA had no standard mfg process upon which to hang your hat. The complexity of the detail required to be knowledgeable about what you are doing is going to preclude a lot of people from being willing to pop a bunch of money for something because they just don't know. To a price point yes, after that no. The USFA's fall into being a niche market. In that the better alternative for the amount of detail and time required to be knowledgeable about USFA's would be better spent on learning about let's say for example Colt 1911's or First gen SA's. They have a broader appeal in the market place and thus a better price structure. Those are the realistic limitations on collecting USFA's, however if you love them and think they are the cat's meow it does not matter.

I think the quality of the USFA's regardless is outstanding, and I will still be keeping my eyes open for a Bisley FT, but I just won't be holding my breath anymore. Virtually nothing made post WW2 has the same quality as the pre WW2 stuff (that is the understatement of the day). Again the pre WW1 stuff is even better than post WW1, except perhaps in the metallurgy. The USFA's fall broadly into the semi custom maker kind of stuff where the detail of fit and finish was was paid attention to. The Uberti's are nice, but they are not up to the same snuff and they are a cheaper bang for the buck. They fill a void.  

BTW I have a first gen 1913 SA Frontier Six Shooter that is in very nice condition of having almost all of it's bluing intact.
Logged
tabs
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2018, 05:11:50 pm »

I should probably leave this one alone, but I just can't help myself.  There is absolutely NO 1st gen Colt worth 16 Grand.  That is what is commonly called INSANE money for a lump of steel.  Not even if there was provenance it was owned by some incredibly renowned period Hero.  Of course, this is only my personal opinion.  It is also my personal opinion current USFA prices are artificially inflated by mindless "Collectors" who absolutely "must" have something.  We hear all the time .... buy a Colt.  Own a piece of History.  Horse Puckey.  Unless, again owned by some incredible famous individual, all it is ... just another Colt.  If it's a 3rd generation, it's also a Replicant.  There is nothing about a USFA that elevates it to "must be worship'd status."  It's just another Single Action.  Same same recent manufacture Colt.

Now the door has been opened. The price escalation in recent years is due to too many dollars chasing too few really primo pieces. Why is that? In 1998 the Wall Street Journal published an article that said that antiques guns were a bonfide collectible on the par with art, coins, classic cars etc. Since then the price of collectible guns have never looked back, even in the midst of the crisis in 08 when the DOW was down by 1000 points that day, a Walker Colt sold at Julia's auction house for $975,000.00.

The question becomes why the healthy price appreciation in collectible guns in the midst of economic turmoil. The liquidity created with the FED's printing of money and government's debt creation has to go somewhere. Secondly with the uncertainty in  the economic future of the USD and the USA being insolvent people would rather have hard assets than cash as a hedge. That is the short answer.

I have been watching gun auctions across the country for nearly 30 years. You can expect more of the same going forward, for as long as the FED maintains credibility on Wall Street etall, with corporations and foreign USD holders (which means everybody). You might say as it turns out that guns are as good as gold...even better right now as they have a better ROI.
Logged
yahoody
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 915



« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2018, 05:13:34 pm »

hhahahahaha..

One has to wonder if USFA ever built a all USA made Bisley.  My guess is they didn't.
Logged

"time leaves tombstones or dry bones"  SASS #2903
LonesomePigeon
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 368


« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2018, 02:01:50 am »

 Yahoody, did you see the Bisley's that were in the big USFA aution on gunbroker by Diamond Firearms a few months ago? Serial #24777 is a Bisley .45 Colt 7 1/2" full nickel with black rubber grips. I can't say whether or not it's 100% USA but it is within the USA serial number range of over 23000* and it has a USA pattern front sight, USA patter ejector housing, USA pattern cylinder flutes and a USA pattern hand checkered hammer. The rear sight notch is wide, like the USA SAA's and the fit and finish looks impeccable.

There was also serial #26969 a gorgeous custom Bisley Flattop Target .45 Colt 5 1/2" dome blue/color case with fire blue appiontments and custom two piece wood grips. It has all the same USA features as the above, except the sights of course are different on a Flattop. The front sight blade is not the same design as the Uberti and front sight base is welded or soldered on, as opposed to the dovetailed Uberti Flattop.
Logged
tabs
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2018, 01:34:56 pm »

hhahahahaha..

One has to wonder if USFA ever built a all USA made Bisley.  My guess is they didn't.

I mean the USFA guns are beautiful whether they are Italian or USA. They are worth having. What I have wanted from USFA is the Bisley Flat Top, but if they are gussied up Italian are they worth a premium over the Uberti? I would say if that is the case why bother trying to hunt one down, the Uberti Flat Top is hard enough to find. It seems that no one is making them anymore. In the case of the standard Bisley the USFA evaluations are approaching that of very clean originals, so for a few dollars more why not buy an original.

From what is said here USFA made a number of the parts themselves or probably did? The question here is, are the Frames and Back straps Italian and the a sundry parts American? Any way you want to slice it the problem with USFA is that if a line is drawn in the sand over all American and or part Italian as to valuation there is no clear delineation that one can hang their hat upon.  Everything has to be evaluated upon it's own merits and then there are even questions about that. This fact make one very hesitant to step up to the plate and pay a premium.

I know a lot of people in the gun biz having dealt with them over the years. Few of them know very much of anything let alone the specifics of a USFA. All you have to do to figure that out is read the descriptions on Gun Broker etc, or read through auctions descriptions etc (I once had a discussion with Fijestde of Blue Book , where he didn't know his stuff). There are guys who are very knowledgeable about a specific range of things, but outside of that range their knowledge falls off. 
Logged
yahoody
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 915



« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2018, 02:09:26 pm »

Real problem with USFA and USPFA prior is they never told the truth from day one.  Now it is easy to document what guns are parts guns prior to USFA making at least a majority of the parts as they claimed.

This info has been documented for several years (basically since USFA shut down and any of us started to care)  and continues to be added to.

http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/uberti-or-usfa-or-parts-gun.html

The SAA version from USFA can be documented as USA built or Italian parts by serial number these days and have been for a while now.

But as you'll notice no Specific Bisley info posted there.  Serial numbers may not tell the entire story on a Bisley.  Only that the majority of the parts are USA made.  What makes a Bisley is a Bisley specific hammer (not aware USFA ever made any) the main spring and of course the backstrap, trigger guard and grips.   And the mating surface on the frame to back strap.   Everything else is a SAA part.  Easy enough to cut off and recut by hand the checkering on a hammer.   I'd also want to see the firing pin on any Bisley.  ut also enough to replace either way.  Makes no sense to make the back strap and trigger guard when they were so easy to source from Uberti.   Knowing USFA was never up front on  where their parts came from I'd bet there are no actual USA made Bisleys no matter the claim.

Uberti has been making the SAA and Bisley Flat top guns for years.  Seems no one noticed until USFA  made a few.   Either way the USA made USFA SAA guns are easy enough to figure out and worth the premium compared to a Uberti parts gun.
Logged

"time leaves tombstones or dry bones"  SASS #2903
Chance
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 294



« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2018, 03:16:38 pm »

hhahahahaha..

One has to wonder if USFA ever built a all USA made Bisley.  My guess is they didn't.

I guess it comes down to what your definition of "made" is. Does it mean manufactured or assembled?

Chance
Logged
LonesomePigeon
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 368


« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2018, 09:36:34 pm »

Did Uberti ever build a Bisley hammer that did not have the hammer block safety? To my knowledge Uberti never built a "no-safety" Bisley hammer. VTI Gunparts does not list a Uberti Bisley "no-safety" hammer, at least not that I could find. Of the two USFA Bisley's that I described above, the Flattop Bisley definitely has a "no-safety" hammer. The nickel one I can't say because the pictures don't show the back of the hammer.


Another thing about Bisley hammers. On all the Uberti Bisley's I have seen there is no significant contour to the back of the hammer. Same goes for the early USFA Bisley's that clearly use Italian parts. On several late model USFA Bisley's the back of the hammer is contoured to follow the lines of the recoil shields, just like original Colt's.
Logged
yahoody
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 915



« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2018, 10:16:24 pm »

Quote
Did Uberti ever build a Bisley hammer that did not have the hammer block safety

You realize that a blank hammer has to be milled and fitted with the safety right?   How one mills the cast part and hand finishes it  is up to the builder.   One can guess at what USFA did for the Bisley. 
Your guess is as good as mine.
Logged

"time leaves tombstones or dry bones"  SASS #2903
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4787


« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2018, 12:14:52 pm »


Well .... actually ..... a Replicant, with or without Lipstick, is still a Replicant.  Taking issue with were the parts came from at this point in time is Oxymoron.  It simply doesn't matter, unless one is a Rabid Collector of inanimate objects to stick up on some shelf and genuflect.
Logged
Buckaroo Lou
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 190



« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2018, 12:50:43 pm »

Don't know about the past Uberti Bisley, but I recently purchased a new Uberti Bisley and it does not have a hammer block safety.
Logged

A man's true measure is found not in what he says but in what he does.
LonesomePigeon
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 368


« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2018, 01:37:17 pm »

Buckaroo Lou, where did you purchase this Uberti Bisley? What is the datecode? Does it have any other type of safety? What caliber and barrel length? I would be very interested in a Uberti Bisley .44-40 with 4 3/4" barrel if the only safety device it had was the two-position cylinder pin. Really would like a .32-20 like that but I am fairly certain they don't make them in .32-20.
Logged
The Pathfinder
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 439


« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2018, 01:56:28 pm »

OK, just checked my Navy Arms Uberti Bisley 44-40 4 3/4", date code BS (2002) and it has both the two position pin and the hammer block safety. So Lou's has to be newer than that.
Logged
Buckaroo Lou
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 190



« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2018, 03:31:51 pm »

LonesomePigeon, Is the date code the two letters in the square stamped just above the serial number on the frame? If so it is CT. It does have the two position pin but does not have the little anvil on the hammer that I assume is the hammer block safety. I bought it online on GB about two weeks ago.

It is a 4 3/4" barrel in .357 caliber. I know .357 is not original but I have other single actions in .45 colt and I just wanted something different. Besides I can also shoot .38 special if I want to.

Here is a photo of the revolver. I have since removed the grips and hand rubbed the gloss finish with 0000 steel wool to remove the glossy look. I prefer a duller satin look to the grips instead of the gloss.

 


* DSC03200-1.JPG (86.6 KB, 668x349 - viewed 14 times.)
Logged

A man's true measure is found not in what he says but in what he does.
yahoody
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 915



« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2018, 03:45:14 pm »

Parts only matter if the price is appropriate for the gun.  Wrong parts and the value isn't there on the USFA guns....from my perspective.

Hammers and triggers are easily had and easier to replace.
Logged

"time leaves tombstones or dry bones"  SASS #2903
LonesomePigeon
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 368


« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2018, 06:45:49 pm »

BuckarooLou, yes that is the datecode. CT would mean it was made in 2018. The anvil thingy you described would be the hammer block safety. I am glad there exists ones without it. One more question, does yours have a Cimarron barrel address and/or does the grip medallion say Cimarron? Since I just put a Pedersoli Lightning rifle on Lay-a-way at Dixie it might be awhile bit I think my next purchase might be a Uberti Bisley.
Logged
Buckaroo Lou
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 190



« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2018, 07:25:41 pm »

LonesomePigeon, Yes it has the Cimarron barrel address and the grip medallions have the Cimarron logo.

Can you tell me where you acquire the information with regard to the date code. In other words can you give me a website that has the date codes and corresponding dates?
Logged

A man's true measure is found not in what he says but in what he does.
yahoody
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 915



« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2018, 07:40:18 pm »


date codes

https://gun-data.com/italiandatecodes2_arms.html
Logged

"time leaves tombstones or dry bones"  SASS #2903
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  USFA CSS (Moderator: Capt. John Fitzgerald)  |  Topic: USFA or Uberti? « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.066 seconds with 21 queries.