Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 19, 2017, 05:35:21 am

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  NCOWS (Moderator: Will Ketchum)  |  Topic: Authenticity 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Authenticity  (Read 2377 times)
Will Ketchum
Chief of Detectives
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2713


Pete Ersland


« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2017, 12:05:28 pm »

Llanerosolitario, I must take exception with your statement that one hand shooting is more accurate at long range. If it were so metallic silhouette shooters would have shot one handed.  I never witnessed that in my years of participating in that sport.
Now with that said for me as in individual I shoot as well if not better with one hand vs two but it's probably because I am a classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter and feel constrained when shooting two handed. However when a precise shot is required I tend to use two hands.     

Will Ketchum
Logged

Will Ketchum's Rules of W&CAS: 1 Be Safe. 2 Have Fun. 3  Look Good Doin It!
F&AM, NRA Endowment Life, SASS Life 4222, NCOWS Life 133.  USMC for ever.
Madison, WI
Ol Gabe
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 651


« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2017, 01:09:02 pm »

Ah, geez, Pete,
Your jist a "classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter...", yup, a Bull Shooter fer sure and certain, said with pride that I am blessed to know such a stalwart Jarhead!
As one of the above-collectively-mentioned Shooters, I've fallen into and through most every category mentioned then falling knees-first into the handicapped zone. I feel it can all be summed up in a simple answer that may defy common sense and logic, to wit: you simply need to use your costume as a prop for the class, i.e., wear a sling on one arm and use that arm/hand as a brace for whichever format of holding the revolver works out the best for you. Simple, effective and chock-full of 'style points'!
And for those waddies above that may have forgotten the official NCOWS rules and regs, any individual party starting out in NCOWS as a new member has a full year to acquire any and all the gear he/she may need to fit in the segment of Western history they desire to assume at any 'official' NCOWS-sponsored event. This is a given, please look it up and refer to it when contemplating venting your collective spleens on what many seem to think are the alleged 'Thread Police' we support and maintain. BTW, they don't exist, PERIOD.
OK, now there may be some members that are overly zealous and want the sport/hobby to be as perfect as is humanly possible, they might excel in historically-correct wear and accoutrements such as leather wear, etc., and everyone attending MUST follow-through as they do but even they should be big enough and calm enough to smile and say to the newbie, "...here, let me show you how to make it work on a limited budget and what to strive for if you want to be the Top Dog in the field..."
Well, with that said and 'splained, I can only wish you all God speed and "...lay on McDuff!" if you want to pick me apart from the concepts only you can espouse.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925
P.S. Don't get out much anymore so I'll jist add, "Thanks for the memories!"

Logged
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4259


« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2017, 02:00:32 pm »

Greyhawk,

Yep.  Drafty can be a real problem.  Alaska is also a place where metal and synthetic window frames and such are prohibited by necessity to prevent Ice formation during the Winter months.  Building codes require wooden window frames to prevent said Ice from forming during the cold months (Everything except July and August).

Yessiree Bob.  Drafty just don't cut it.  Not one bit.
Logged
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4259


« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2017, 03:06:21 pm »


Just a couple of small points.  Citing the instruction of some wheezing Military General of the day is ludicrous.  In the time frame cited, the military didn't know what to do with a handgun.  A hand gun was seen as an absolute last resort.  Marksmanship with a handgun wasn't even taught.  Let us remember, those were the same folks whom opined a repeating rifle was a waste of ammunition and still believed in well ordered lines of solders opposite more well ordered lines, so they could shoot at one another as ducks in a shooting gallery.

If you ever bother to study some of the photographs of the men who lived by the gun in the era, there is one salient feature.  Their rifle.  Rough men carried rifles as their primary arm.  Pistols were included as an absolute last resort.  Law men of the era, carried Rifles and Shotguns.  Pistols were only seen to be of use in urban settings and more often to wallop some miscreant over the head.

Urban gunfights (mostly saloons) were historically carried out at something more like 7 FEET.  Or 3 feet across a card table.  One notable law man of the age was quoted "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you've done something terribly wrong."

I think NCOWS should legitimize "Gunfighter".   Gunfighter is one hand shooting.  Just the expedient of having a gun in EACH HAND.
Logged
greyhawk
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 196


« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2017, 04:30:35 pm »

Looks to me like this argyment has kinda gone off at a tangent ?? isnt the primary issue that a two hand shooter has a decided advantage over a one hander playing the SASS game?
1) he can go much faster - cocking with left thumb while he holds n triggers with right - some are slip hammering I bet - holding trigger down while working hammer wid other thumb
2) regardless of the evidence you guys present around military and target shooting - for most of us two handed is a much more secure and steadier aim - (not particularly relevant to the SASS game where speed counts) try doing two hands at a regular target pistol club in a match where scores matter - you get banished from the range or at least severely reprimanded soon as ya other mit touches - just like in bronc or bull ridin - use of the free hand to steady ya is a no go . you is  d - i - s - q - u- a - l - i -f  i - e - d ! ! ! !
It must make a serious difference or it would not cause such a ruckus .

I dont reckon this is about authenticity so much as its about fairness in the competition - tother argyments are distractions ---- just two bobs worth from down under   
Logged
llanerosolitario
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2017, 06:22:28 pm »

Llanerosolitario, I must take exception with your statement that one hand shooting is more accurate at long range. If it were so metallic silhouette shooters would have shot one handed.  I never witnessed that in my years of participating in that sport.
Now with that said for me as in individual I shoot as well if not better with one hand vs two but it's probably because I am a classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter and feel constrained when shooting two handed. However when a precise shot is required I tend to use two hands.    

Will Ketchum

Metallic cartridge is about hitting, not about getting scores.

If shooting two hands were more accurate, ISSF 50 meters pistol  shooters, who shoot 22 lr pistols one hand at 50 meters, would surely use 2 hands and as a consequence would demand a change in the rules to allow it. But they know that two hands shoting is, in fact, a drawbck when compiting againts an acomplished one hand shooter in pure accuracy matches.

these guys are able to put 60 rounds in the area of a small cup of tea at 50 meters, not only thanks to intensive training and excellent single shot pistols and selected ammo, but also because one hand shooting provides more eye relief to the sights, which means less angular mistakes, but also  allows the shooter to modify the grip to make the gun melt with the hand and arm  ( as well as having more trigger feeling and control). The fact that the shooting eye  is perfectly behind the sights without  any momentum or angle as in two hands shooting  is important too to avoid or minimize the pararell and horizontal mistake in sights aligment, in the long distance shooting.

 The sum of all those facts above  means  that, technically and practically,  shooting one hand is the most adequate position for maximum accuracy...at the price of more fatigue in the shooting arm after 30 rounds..( matches are 60 rounds). More demanding, but tecnically more rewarding too. This was well known in the old times and has also a military origin.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U6yc49uk5GY


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_dpE9OmcsU8

It is interesting to say that these disciplines are old, being most from the late XIX and widely practised with  modified centerfire revolvers in its time....interesting  also how little known they are,  outside Europe and Assia.


in my opinion, the revolver as a military tool in the USA had great importance. It was a key gun in the Mexican American war, specially againts armoured mexican lancers, and in the later indian wars, its 6 shots ( loading 5 is something  from modern times) capacity provided more chances to survive for the soldier or pionner at a time when repeating arms were not allways avaiable and the most common arm was the single shot.

I dont think that life in the Old West towns was specially violent. Everybody was well armed, so most people were polite. Just  a bad word to a decent woman could mean being linched or hanged, or, at least, being whipped. There was not a urban self  defense  culture or discipline in the Old West cities......the  main danger in the  Old West was far away from the city,  where the hostile savage attacked, ambushed and provoked terror. Or where army deserters,  or criminal gangs were active, attacking, destroying, creating havoc like in post  War times.

Gunfights in the West surely were few ...thats why some became famous.


note: the size of the black of the international  pistol target is about  2 mm from 50 meters. The world record is about 583....of 600 maximum for 60 shots.... it literally means at least 80 % of rounds in a dime area at 50 meters standing.



Logged
Professor Marvel
purveyor of useless items to the gentry
American Plainsmen Society
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1509


life is too short to waste on stupid


« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2017, 07:34:21 pm »

...
If shooting two hands were more accurate, ISSF 50 meters pistol  shooters, who shoot 22 lr pistols one hand at 50 meters, would surely use 2 hands and as a consequence would demand a change in the rules to allow it. But they know that two hands shoting is, in fact, a drawbck when compiting againts an acomplished one hand shooter in pure accuracy matches.
....

these guys are able to put 60 rounds in the area of a small cup of tea at 50 meters, not only thanks to intensive training and excellent single shot pistols and selected ammo, but also because one hand shooting provides more eye relief to the sights, which means less angular mistakes, but also  allows the shooter to modify the grip to make the gun melt with the hand and arm  ( as well as having more trigger feeling and control). The fact that the shooting eye  is perfectly behind the sights without  any momentum or angle as in two hands shooting  is important too to avoid or minimize the pararell and horizontal mistake in sights aligment, in the long distance shooting.

...
 The sum of all those facts above  means  that, technically and practically,  shooting one hand is the most adequate position for maximum accuracy...at the price of more fatigue in the shooting arm after 30 rounds..( matches are 60 rounds). More demanding, but tecnically more rewarding too. This was well known in the old times and has also a military origin.



Sorry Llanero, but this is all opinion and speculation, what you offer as "facts" are not facts. They are observations and then conjecture.

Whilst your historic doco is correct, your opinion is really not "fact" and you provide no supporting factual evidence.

Once again, you are using Euro-biased sports rules as if they were based in scientific fact, and spinning twisted speculation to support your opinion. Your example shooters shoot one-handed becasue those are the rules they have to follow.
Trying to change those rules in the EU is like trying to move a mountain.

I really have no time to spend to find and post facts to refute your false dreaming, bu I will suggest you search for
"Ed McGivern" "Elmer Keith" "Col Wesson" and "long distance handgun" where you will find fact-based doco regarding
all of their use of 2 hands, one hand and bent knee,  and other supports to provide pistol accuraccy at long ranges.

As previously posted by Will Ketchum, you have also completely ignored the achievements of long distance metallic silhouette shooters - the champions shoot two-handed or "freestyle".  

I would really like to see your shooters try to compete in metallic silhouette. Metallic Silhouette Standing pistol is the most difficult discipline; no one has shot a perfect 40x40.

prof marvel

PS - ok I lied I looked one up. this was too good to pass up:
In 1997 Rich Mishler set the world record and won hitting 34/40 Targets,
Slamming Down 9/10 Rams at 500 Meters.
This Was Open Sights, Handguns, 500 Meters Freestyle.

Freestyle includes some unusual positions, such as the Creedmoor position, which is shot lying on the back, legs bent and feet flat on the ground, with the pistol resting on the shooter's right leg. ie: NOT your EU 0ne-hand pistol stance.

at 500 meters I myself can hardly SEE the RAM target.

Logged

Professor Marvel's Traveling Apothecary and Fortune Telling Emporium
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods, and Picture Postcards
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4259


« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2017, 08:06:26 pm »


Pro M,

You also forgot to mention the referenced discipline as depicted in the provided moving pictures also has Custom Built, Recoil attenuated, .22 LR caliber, tailored to fit grip sets and a price tag to give apoplexy.  Which also have no practical application.

AloneRanger:
While your "expert" observations are .... interesting .... I'd like to point out ... an "Ex" is a has been and "Spert" is mearly a drip under pressure.  As noted by Pro M, your observations are somewhat suspect such as those of a Troll.
Logged
Will Ketchum
Chief of Detectives
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2713


Pete Ersland


« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2017, 08:29:50 pm »

I think we have exhausted this subject to it's final destination.   I was hoping Jim Hunt would find his citation to enlighten us so I kept this thread alive. I have decided to lock it. If Mr. hunt finds said citation he can PM me and I'll unlock it.

Will Ketchum
NCOWS Board Moderator
Logged

Will Ketchum's Rules of W&CAS: 1 Be Safe. 2 Have Fun. 3  Look Good Doin It!
F&AM, NRA Endowment Life, SASS Life 4222, NCOWS Life 133.  USMC for ever.
Madison, WI
Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  NCOWS (Moderator: Will Ketchum)  |  Topic: Authenticity « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.064 seconds with 22 queries.