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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  NCOWS (Moderator: Will Ketchum)  |  Topic: Authenticity 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Authenticity  (Read 2471 times)
Templar
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Captain Quigley


« on: October 16, 2017, 10:17:12 am »


Captain Quigley here,

I have been a NCOWS member longer than I can remember. Joined even when the closest NCOWS shoot was a days drive from Colorado. Enjoyed what you(we) stood for and the magazine, even though I could not participate. BTW, I am also a SASS member, have been for decades. I have since moved to SC and have brought in 2 new members to NCOWS.

I would like to ask all the Territorial Congress members what providence they used to approve the Two Handed shooting method as being period correct. I read in every Shootist on how we pride ourselves on "Authenticity", "Old West Spirit", and Reenacting, per the black page of the Shootist. We frequently see on the front cover a member using a two handed grip. As a 20+ year veteran of Civil War and Indian wars cavalry, I am fairly well versed in period correct authencity and the historical research used to justify the equipment , and procedures we use. I have never seen or read a single incidence where a two handed revolver hold was taught or documented. Well, there was Mattie holding that horse pistol in True Grit, but a single incidence does not document common usage . Shocked

Now ya'll went and combined this "Creative Anachnorism" into the same class as the members who use a single handed hold as was done in the times we portray.

What has happened here? While you constantly berate SASS, you have allowed, no preferred, the same speed shooting method that the "Fastest" shooters use to win their Top Competitor competitions. There is no way the average duelist shooter can match the speed of a two handed shooting method. Were the two handed Gamers not winning enough awards to fuel their egos?

Yes, yes...you passed this change off as a method to reduce they number of classes.

Well, here is a suggestion. Eliminate the two handed shooting method, except for the young, weak or infirm. Eliminate this two handed anachronism from all shoots (except for Mattie) and  truly and authentically represent the Old West we claim to portray.

Just my humble opinions and suggestion from this life long cowboy, historian, and cavalry reenact.

Captain Quigley
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Books OToole
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Michael Tatham


« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 10:35:01 am »

[Bruce Dern used two hands to shoot John Wayne in the back in The Cowboys.]

But other than that..... Roll Eyes


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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 11:00:12 am »

Well Captain .....

I'm NOT a lifelong member of NCOWS although I soon will be a member of NCOWS and I take some exception to your dissertation.  Since you weren't personally there, do you really portend that enterprising folks did not nor never gripped their pistol with two hands??  Let us take note ..... the creator of all gave us TWO good hands with which to grasp our PISTOLS.  Why would those in the position of protecting life and limb NOT take advantage of that free hand??

I do understand, the thought of gripping your pistol with two hand is personally annoying to you, suggesting an entire shooting fraternity be subjected to your particular ideas seems somewhat self aggrandizing.  Especially considering, you weren't personally there in witness as it twer.
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Templar
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Captain Quigley


« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 12:02:21 pm »

Well Mr. Coffinmaker,

We are all allowed our opinion, thus is yours.

No none of us living presently were personally there. All we can do is look at the surviving photographs and read the documents (such as they are) to get a an idea of what was commonly done.

The cardinal run of authentic reenacting is that if you can't document what was used, how used, or commonly done, then it is inappropriate to do or use. That is the primary tenant of authentic reenacting. Just because they may have done it if they could, does not mean they did. I'm not saying, no one never ever held a revolver with two hands. I'm saying that it was not common and as such does not belong as major classification of shooters.

Since you don't know me, your use of the term "self aggrandizing" is not only totally ignorant, but also a ploy to shut down those who are different than you. These are the tactics employed by the folks who follow Saul Allensky.
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Will Ketchum
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Pete Ersland


« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 12:08:47 pm »

It can be argued that Bill Hickok used 2 hands when he shot Dave Tutt in Springfield, Missouri July 21 1865. The description of it said something about Wild Bill bracing his revolver with his left hand when he took the shot at something like 70 yards.  I didn't look up the exact account but that's close.
I personally prefer to shoot one handed and when I was in the Marines we had to qualify one handed in the early 60s but that changed before my hitch was up.

Will Ketchum
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Daniel Dodge
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2017, 12:29:52 pm »

If you were supposed to use two hands Sam Colt would have put two handles on them...   Grin
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 12:35:17 pm »

WOW    Shocked   Must have hit a Nerve   Roll Eyes

No intent at all to deny you your particular opine.  More than welcome to shoot one handed.  More than welcome to express your opinion.  On the other hand, suggesting everybody should be required to do it "your way" and accusing those whom find your position to be just a mite "High Handed" of being "Radicals" is akin to describing those who disagree as being Heretics.
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Major 2
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Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 01:13:25 pm »

A point of issue Sir...

You wrote.... " What has happened here? While you constantly berate SASS "

Where ? how ? does NCOWS  or  the membership at large berate SASS.... either   constantly or passively ?

I'm am NCOWS member, past Senator and National Judge , Mounted Reenactor for 30+ years , Past SASS member 1992-2003.

I'm not naive , know SASS & NCOWS are DIFFERENT ,,, that difference is what drew me to NCOWS ...but I don't believe  
anyone in NCOWS constantly berates SASS.

That is a mighty statement  Undecided


I shoot Duelist ,  I prefer it ,  I've shot two handed back in my early SASS years because I shot factory 45 Colt in 7.5 inch Old Model Vaquero's , seemed prudent to do so for control.


as to Maddie Ross & her Colt's Dragoon or nasty Bruce Derns dirty deed ...  
nether hold a candle to the Late great James Coburn's "Britt" in Magnificent 7

not saying it was period correct but it was Magnificent  Smiley


  


* the-magnificent-seven-5.jpg (74.88 KB, 640x272 - viewed 42 times.)
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Reverend P. Babcock Chase
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 01:15:13 pm »

Howdy all,

I'm not an NCOWS shooter, but I appreciate authenticity. I shoot one handed in sass in the one-handed classes. Rather than debate whether the old timers ever (never, always, often) shot with two hands (even though we know that two-handed was probably a rarity, typically for long, slow aimed shots), I would point out the basic unfairness of having one-handers compete against two-handers in the same class (if that's what they are doing). Even sass (known for being a little fast and loose with authenticity) separates the two styles.

Reverend Chase
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Major 2
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Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 01:17:42 pm »

Howdy all,

I'm not an NCOWS shooter,....

Reverend Chase

and there you have it  Wink
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Templar
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Captain Quigley


« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 05:06:35 pm »

Major 2. Howdy Sir.

Might I suggest that you read the back cover of nearly every Shootist magazine.

Are you saying that these comments are not directed at SASS:
1. "Tired of too close and too big:
2. "Tired of equipment race"
3. "Ready for more authenticity"
4. "Like real shooting competition"

Well sir. If those statements are not directed at SASS. I'll be a Dandy.

Now, I'm not defending SASS. They are a business that is in business to make money. Nothing wrong with that.

I still shoot with and belong to both groups.

Just think NCOWS should have higher standards.

IMHO
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Galen
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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 05:29:37 pm »

My grand father died in the 1960's at almost 90 years old. His only revolver was a top break .44 S&W. I remember him shooting his revolver always one handed with the elbow bent.
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Books OToole
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Michael Tatham


« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 05:47:27 pm »

Attached is a couple of turn of the 20th century photos of some of the top pistol shooting competitors.  I believe the guy in the middle of the second photo is E. E. Partridge:  I think he invented a target sight for pistols.

Books


* pistol shooters 2.jpg (7.14 KB, 318x158 - viewed 39 times.)

* pistol shooters.jpg (40.32 KB, 600x278 - viewed 39 times.)
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greyhawk
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 05:58:35 pm »

Well Captain .....

I'm NOT a lifelong member of NCOWS although I soon will be a member of NCOWS and I take some exception to your dissertation.  Since you weren't personally there, do you really portend that enterprising folks did not nor never gripped their pistol with two hands??  Let us take note ..... the creator of all gave us TWO good hands with which to grasp our PISTOLS.  Why would those in the position of protecting life and limb NOT take advantage of that free hand??

I do understand, the thought of gripping your pistol with two hand is personally annoying to you, suggesting an entire shooting fraternity be subjected to your particular ideas seems somewhat self aggrandizing.  Especially considering, you weren't personally there in witness as it twer.

Whats goin on here boys Huh two handed versus one handed ?? thats two separate classes / events surely ?? I plink at our local (Aussie) pistol club to keep meself legal with pistols - in normal competition if ya grip two handed ya is disqualified - when we shoot a full match and I get to the rapid fire part wid me little ruger single action the boys are ok wid me doin two hands cuz they all shootin semi autos wid orthopedic grips - but If I won they might change their minds and if I shot a good enough score to break grade I might want to disqualify that score myself -- I am an outsider to this argyment but -- two hands is open class - one hand is a special catygory - lettin two hands in a one hand category is BS - if that happened somebody just got screwed !!!!!
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River City John
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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 06:04:34 pm »

The solution to all of this is to give up caring whether someone shoots faster than you, regardless of hold style.

There is no rule that says you can't shoot one-handed if signed up for two-hand style. I like the option of being able to bring my offhand up to steady my aim when going after those pesky little knockdown cowboys at our range. If it's a larger pistol target, or a "dump" target, then I will get some practice in shooting duelist.

I'm just shy of two decades shooting NCOWS in matches hosted all across the country, but I can count on the digits of both hands and one foot, the number of members who are consistently totally authentic.

I am sure most of the new blood signing up for NCOWS membership are those who are escaping from the "race guns shot as fast as possible to be competitive"-bent, and not enticed by authenticity. No need to shame people who shoot how they've been introduced to the hobby and feel safer using two hands.
People's participation is more important than what handhold style they prefer. NCOWS will start hemorrhaging membership if we alienate two-handed shooters.
THAT we cannot afford to do.


RCJ    
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Reverend P. Babcock Chase
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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2017, 06:06:24 pm »

Thanks for the warm welcome Major,

Thought I had a point, but not being an NCOWS shooter, I should have saved my thought for some other part of the forum. Really makes me want to search out an NCOWS chapter in the Northeast.

Reverend Chase
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greyhawk
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 06:33:49 pm »

My grand father died in the 1960's at almost 90 years old. His only revolver was a top break .44 S&W. I remember him shooting his revolver always one handed with the elbow bent.

AHH  thanks for that !!! I shoot my cowboy pistols at the "proper pistol club" --- elbows bent -- I dont do so bad when I try - the guys used to coach me to shoot stiff arm - always resisted that - it was not comfortable with the standard colt grip - I had an EMF 44/40 that I had tuned up myself and was doing quite well with until little johhny arsehol er howards buyback claimed it - a couple weeks before the hand in I took it to the club and shot till I was tired of it (had a heap of ammo loaded for pistol) there were some spare targets up and mr club hotshot wandered in (the guy with his name on all the boards for winners - hes a good guy I hasten to add) have a shot - its goin to the crusher soon - ok - he picked up 3rounds - fill it up! - nah three is ok - I watched him load (unfamiliar gun so you watch) he fires one - ooh that kicks - nah dont kick - (how would a 44/40 with a standard pistol load kick?) - nuther shot - then another - he unloads caefully and hands it back safe - thanks - n off he goes --- now there is a kid watching all this (a young feller about 16 that liked ths look of my pistol) so we wander down range to take the targets down - as we approach we are both squinting at the clean target our friend shot at - looking for 44 callibre holes - cept they not there!! ---- our best club shooter has just clean missed the paper three times with my ole hogleg at 25 yards!!! my young mate has got this kinda bemused grin on him ---- well that is interesting - I said I guarantee if he hands me any of his guns the way he shoots em I will put it on paper - might not do well but .......... funny thing ..... the grip and stance coaching stopped right there!!
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2017, 06:34:41 pm »

I'll throw my floppy hat into the ring. I've only ever shot duelist in sass, Wild Bunch or WASA matches, period. My WASA club matches are so small, 15 or so shooters, that we only list scores with no categories. The WB club does the same thing as only a dozen of Pike's gang show up but if I was at a good sized sass match I would be very upset to be grouped with two handed shooters. I would be less upset being grouped with younger duelists than modern shooters my age. Maybe before I die I will get to a GAF or NCOWS match but if I do yer dern tootin I'll be shootin the 'correct' goldern way. IM dagnabbit O, you whippersnappers ( thought I'd get into my Gabby 'pression).


* image.jpeg (155.54 KB, 768x1024 - viewed 34 times.)
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bear tooth billy
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NCOWS Senator


« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2017, 07:07:58 pm »

As the name of this post is authenticity, I'd like to suggest our Originals class, I joined it for the
first time this year. It was very fun digging up history about my character, a buffalo hunter in 1875.
in this class you have to shoot 1 handed. We probably all realize that almost all pistol shooting in the
old west was 1 handed, but RCJ made a great point, that if we were to disallow 2 handed shooting
we could very well alienate a lot of our members. I have a smith & Wesson DA and a Merwin DA, that I
really don't feel comfortable/safe shooting 1 handed. Remember, we are a democratic organization, if
members don't like the rules WE can change them next March at the Congress meeting.

                        BTB  Senator
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Major 2
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Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2017, 07:30:27 pm »

Major 2. Howdy Sir.

Might I suggest that you read the back cover of nearly every Shootist magazine.

Are you saying that these comments are not directed at SASS:
1. "Tired of too close and too big:
2. "Tired of equipment race"
3. "Ready for more authenticity"
4. "Like real shooting competition"

Well sir. If those statements are not directed at SASS. I'll be a Dandy.

Now, I'm not defending SASS. They are a business that is in business to make money. Nothing wrong with that.

I still shoot with and belong to both groups.

Just think NCOWS should have higher standards.

IMHO

"Might I suggest that you read the back cover of nearly every Shootist magazine."


I do, and I often contribute articles ....


" Are you saying that these comments are not directed at SASS:
1. "Tired of too close and too big:
2. "Tired of equipment race"
3. "Ready for more authenticity"
4. "Like real shooting competition"


Never said anything of a sort ....Didn't write the ad nor do I think it was written to berate another discipline.

"I still shoot with and belong to both groups."  

that is cool ...


"Just think NCOWS should have higher standards  ."  

I agree ....
now having said that ....  I've mentioned I shoot duelist (single handed)
  
 but I do not cast aspersions on anyone who chooses to use both hands ....







 
 

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Major 2
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Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2017, 07:51:05 pm »

Thanks for the warm welcome Major,

Thought I had a point, but not being an NCOWS shooter, I should have saved my thought for some other part of the forum. Really makes me want to search out an NCOWS chapter in the Northeast.

Reverend Chase


Not sure I did ,  But I do now, I gladly offer your a warm welcome should you try NCOWS....

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Templar
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Captain Quigley


« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2017, 08:28:24 pm »

Major 2:

Ya'll missing my point here.

I don't give a hoot wether you shoot one handed or two.

The problem I am trying to elucidate on is the recent change to combine the two handed shooters with the one handed in the same category. . While you are concerned with offending the two handed shooters, you seem to be okay with brushing aside the duelist.

The most recent Shootist magazine is trying to gather support for the national and regional shoots. Why would any duelist pay to play with a group who is okay with handicapping them in the competition? The reality is that most of us "normal" folks do not stand a chance in a competition with a two handed shooter . Look, I shoot in SASS with two handed folks who routinely have stage times in the 15 to 20 seconds as two handed shooters, while during the same stage I shoot in the 35 to 40 seconds as a duelist. I don't care, they are in a different class. As a retiree on a fixed income, I would never attend an NCOWS match where I pay extra to play, have travel, hotel and meal expenses all for the pleasure of having no chance to compete equally.

All I'm saying is the recent change to combine the two hand grippers with the duelist shooters is unfair to the duelist. Will you not agree or will you still deny this impact on duelist shooters?

BTW: I seem to have read that the duelist "Black Powder" shooters still have their own category . Looks like this "Special Interest" group had enough LOBBYISTs' that they are unaffected by this most recent rule change. Funny how this mimics our own present politicians in Washington.
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Major 2
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Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2017, 09:42:21 pm »

I think you over stated your point , and at least to me , "Authenticity"  it seemed to reflect the historic accuracy aspect....

Now you are clearer, you do not care for the latest Rules structure ...

Frankly, you are not an "ISLAND" ..... many have expressed the same ... read the letters to the Ed. in our Shootist...

truth is , I shot Smokeless Duelist....   

" I seem to have read that the duelist "Black Powder" shooters  still have their own category "  you are correct

you say " I would never attend an NCOWS match where I pay extra to play, have travel, hotel and meal expenses all for the pleasure of having no chance to compete equally."

Better to join those that would write or support an amendment to correct Smokeless Duelist vs smokeless or BP two handed shooters.

I will, in the mean time shoot duelist "Black Powder".

join the movement , don't boycott  Smiley


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Professor Marvel
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life is too short to waste on stupid


« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2017, 11:45:45 pm »


join the movement , don't boycott  Smiley


I like that, sir.



yhs
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llanerosolitario
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2017, 03:53:15 am »

http://www.revolver1873.fr/1873-marine.php

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/world-firearms/547574d1375374460-webley-scott-455-1913-mki-n-navy-automatic-pistol-002.jpg?s=d232380007e2a46157b228d387fc3711

https://ospreypublishing.com/the-webley-service-revolver

Two handed shooting is not historically correct, period.


on the other side.... ISSF Rapid Fire shooters....one hand...5 shots in 4 seconds...25 meters....living proof that one hand shooting is probably faster and allways more accurate.. (if they dont hit the 10,  2" circle, then it is scored  as a "miss").

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=if-Iqv_FKaU





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