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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: SAA Cap and ball??? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: SAA Cap and ball???  (Read 1099 times)
hatman
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« on: September 16, 2017, 01:30:10 pm »


A friend of mine ran across this on gunbroker.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/695546520

Anybody ever seen something like this before?
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 01:45:20 pm »

Says 44 Caliber.  Don't say cartridge of c&b.

DD-MDA
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Major 2
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2017, 02:51:01 pm »

Yes....they made for folks that live in Draconian law countries , there is another thread in which someone on Calif. bought one.

It is Cap & Ball ...you'll need a loading stand ( no rammer) ....$125 opening bid is more than I be willing to pay.

course I don't live in a Draconian society ......
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2017, 04:20:32 pm »


PLUS ONE to Major 2.

Designed and built for those European countries that don't allow anyone but Terrorists to own cartridge firearms.  Why someone decided to try importing them here is beyond me.  They are specifically VERBOTEN in NCOWS.  May be used in CAS EXCEPT in BP categories.  I would consider them to be somewhat overpriced paper weights.
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Abilene
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2017, 05:06:54 pm »

Yeah, but if you are a felon gangbanger, you can order one of these in the mail and use it to rob convenience stores.  Fire a round in the air and the smoke will block the security cam  Tongue
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hatman
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2017, 10:55:19 pm »

Thanks for the replies.
I would have guessed it was some kind of 3rd party parts gun.
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llanerosolitario
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2017, 08:11:28 am »

PLUS ONE to Major 2.

Designed and built for those European countries that don't allow anyone but Terrorists to own cartridge firearms.  Why someone decided to try importing them here is beyond me.  They are specifically VERBOTEN in NCOWS.  May be used in CAS EXCEPT in BP categories.  I would consider them to be somewhat overpriced paper weights.


not exactly so. As a matfer of fact, cartridge guns are legal in all Europe, rifles, shotguns ( and semiauto rifles for hunting are probably the most popular) and pistols. Only the UK and Ireland (maybe Greece too, but not sure. At least, not in Crete) forbid cartridge pistols and semiautomatic rifles.

In the rest, if you want a legal pistol, you get it. And if you defend yourself or your family at home with a gun, you wont go to prison..you'll probably  go to court, but wont go to prison under logical self defense circunstances.

In fact,  this revolver was created to be sold license free in two specific markets mainly, France and Belgium, where, according to local laws, all muzzleloaders are freely avaiable, with no purchase permit required. So there was a market for them with no restrictions.

then some unscrupulous individuals, began making illegal conversions from ML to cartridge, despite the revolver being specially designed to make  it difficult. As a result, the French changed the law in the 90s so that any license free ML replica " must be of a design previous to 1890".

the frame is not tempered and probably made with soft steel, as well as the barrel and cylinder.

A useless paper weigth, I agree.



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Major 2
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2017, 08:29:01 am »


not exactly so. As a matfer of fact, cartridge guns are legal in all Europe, specially rifles and shotguns ( and semiauto rifles for hunting are probably the most popular). Only the UK and Ireland (maybe Greece too, but not sure. At least, not in Crete) forbid cartridge pistols and semiautomatic rifles. In the rest, if you want a legal pistol, you get it.

In fact,  this revolver was created to be sold license free in two specific markets mainly, France and Belgium, where, according to local laws, all muzzleloaders are freely avaiable, with no purchase permit required. So there was a market for them with no restrictions.

then some unscrupulous individuals, began making illegal conversions from ML to cartridge, despite the revolver being specially designed to make  it difficult. As a result, the French changed the law in the 90s so that any license free ML replica " must be of a design previous to 1890".

the frame is not tempered and probably made with soft steel, as well as the barrel and cylinder,





Didn't say  "ALL of Europe "  I said " Draconian law Countries " and  "Draconian society"
 Coffin maker said.... " built for those European countries that don't allow anyone but Terrorists to own cartridge firearms. "

no country was singled out by either of us...that is for the researcher to do...  Undecided

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llanerosolitario
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 11:58:05 am »

there is no country in Europe where the law does not allow the average cotizen to own cartridge guns, period. I repeat, only 2 or 3 have pistols banned.

 sayin: "built for those  European countries that dont allow anyone but terrorist to own cartridge guns" is just not telling the truth....by the way..which countries?

in France, during the years that cap and ball SAAs were made, from the 80s to the 90s, all long guns, rifles or shotguns, except some military calibers, where license free, in other words, it was possible to buy a Winchester 94 in 30/30 with just your ID and money and filling a registration paper.   Also 22 lr single shot long barrel pistols were freely sold with ID and registration.

in Belgium, during those years, Luger 1900s, Luger 1906s, Swiss rifles, P14s, Winchesters 95s  etc in full working condition, were freely sold without any registration  or permit required.....and full auto guns were legal for collectors..., and all type of modern rifles, but semiautos, as well as shotguns, were freely avaiable with your ID and money.

the cap and balls revolvers didnt need, and still dont need, ID or registration in those two countries.  Compared to other countries, like the UK, France gun laws cannot be defined as " draconian", and if you  live in France, you still can be well armed legally.

these revolvers were not built for " Europeans countries..etc etc".. as cartridge guns are legal and avaiable in all Europe, specially long guns.   bur they were built for people who wanted to own a Colt Saa look alike without going through the legal process of obtaining a target shooting or collector license for a handgun.



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Major 2
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 01:16:53 pm »

The discussion was about a C&B SAA ...a revolver ( not a shotgun not long guns )

Well I suppose it's semantics then

you say....
" built for people who wanted to own a Colt Saa look alike without going through the legal process of obtaining a target shooting or collector license for a handgun. "   

I say " Draconian laws, government actions, etc. are extremely severe, or go further than what is right or necessary:"  (Cambridge Dictionary )

 again I said " Draconian law countries " I said NADA about Europe  Smiley 

And BTW ....

" in France, during the years that cap and ball SAAs were made, from the 80s to the 90s "

according to the other thread these C&B SAA are still made .... as you say then,  "for people who wanted to own a Colt Saa look alike without going through the legal process of obtaining a target shooting or collector license for a handgun"
That would suggest to me there is a market in such countries.

no argument from me....  I own several Colt C&B revolvers they were designed as C&B in the day.
I do not desire to own a C&B SAA .....

Hatman asked a question ....we covered it well I believe ....later
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llanerosolitario
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2017, 02:26:23 pm »

they are no longer being made.

As far as I know,  there were two makers doing them: Uberti and Armi Jager. They didnt sell well, as they were more expensive, and harder to load than traditional cap and balls in the french market, the market they were mainly created for,where you could buy them by mail.

it is interesting that despite being the swiss law more relaxed than the french, modern muzzleloading revolvers  require a purchase permit and are registered in that country...while in France  they  are  freely sold in hardware stores.

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Abilene
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2017, 02:57:15 pm »

Maybe Uberti stopped making them and started again.  Maybe they just stopped selling them in Europe.  But they are making them now.  Cimarron has started importing them in the last year or two (as I asked in another thread: "why?") but obviously some people buy them.  Perhaps as a novelty?  Easy to get by mail (avoiding our draconian laws, eh Major 2?   Grin ) .  The ones that were sold by Cabelas and others years ago had a millenium finish.  The new ones I've seen are blue/cc.  Anyway, the guns are not on Cimarron's website, but the last inventory I saw showed four in stock, MP458.
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Major 2
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2017, 02:59:36 pm »

"As far as I know,  there were two makers doing them: Uberti and Armi Jager"

FYI   the gun in question (see the link to Gunbroker by the OP )

that one is a Pietta ....  say's so and is so roll stamped on the right side of the barrel pictured ....

I too was under the impression they were no longer made....however Abilene ( whom is an associate at Cimarron ) states they are still imported again as of 2016 and in stock...he also freely admits they don't sell well , go figure ....but there it is.

We've beat the dead horse well and good ....  end of subject   Smiley  
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Abilene
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2017, 03:13:31 pm »

A quick check shows Pietta still makes it and EMF sells them:
http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/1873-Percussion-Revolver-c551.htm

BTW, Major 2, I'm not sure what an assonate is, but I hope it means associate.  Smiley

And I didn't say they don't sell well.  I wouldn't expect them to, but I actually do not know how many they sell.
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Lefty Dude
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2017, 03:35:41 pm »

Abilene;
The minute I saw you I said to my self, he is an "assonate"!  LOL, LOL
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Abilene
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2017, 04:49:14 pm »

 Grin  Grin
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Major 2
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2017, 05:01:55 pm »

A quick check shows Pietta still makes it and EMF sells them:
http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/1873-Percussion-Revolver-c551.htm

BTW, Major 2, I'm not sure what an assonate is, but I hope it means associate.  Smiley

And I didn't say they don't sell well.  I wouldn't expect them to, but I actually do not know how many they sell.

yep   associate......typo
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llanerosolitario
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2017, 06:10:58 pm »

interesting, as I have no seen them for sale in Europe since the 1990s when the two only models avaiable ceased to be made....
 today they are not legal for sale  as freely avaiable cap and ball revolvers in most european countries as they were not originally muzzleloading guns.

and it was this same revolver  (Uberti) the one who inspiredd the change in the law in France aroun 1998 and the illegal conversions some people were doing of a freely avaiable revolver back then.

you can freely buy a Colt Dragoon in France, but you cannot freely buy a Ruger Old Army, a modern design.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2017, 04:49:22 pm »


OK.  The original question was quite simple.  Had anybody seen one.  Simple answer ...... Yes some of us have seen one. 

Then everyone managed to turn the discussion to what was "legal" and available, where, when and even drifted into discussion of other guns that have no bearing on the subject in question.  And some of the information provided was in error.

I find, it is most beneficial, when contemplating poking your fingers in someone's eye, to first make sure your right.  Then, if the direction your going in waste's everyones time, consider skipping it.  It still boils down to the original inception, to provide a legal representation of the SAA, where the ownership and possession of a cartridge pistol is difficult or prohibited.  If there are those countries that allow the possession and use of the cartridge version ...... WHO CARES!!  Immaterial.  We just wanted to answer "Why."
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Abilene
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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2017, 06:00:58 pm »

... We just wanted to answer "Why."

Hey, I got another reason!  This is a quote from the EMF ad: "It would be a great addition to your Black Powder collection!"

So, you see, if you have everything else in your collection, you certainly need one of these!  It's sort of like Colt collectors nowadays need to have a Colt Cowboy in their collection for it to be complete.  Otherwise who would want it?  Smiley
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Major 2
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« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2017, 06:20:24 pm »

THIS HORSE ....Dead & buried is well & truly beaten.....

The subject is now   Kiss   moot
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