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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1892 (Moderator: Isom)  |  Topic: An interesting QUESTION !!! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: An interesting QUESTION !!!  (Read 1827 times)
Coffinmaker
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« on: September 01, 2017, 05:21:29 pm »



Anybody know if anyone has successfully modified a 45 Colt '92 to run with Cowboy 45 Special Cartridges??

Back before July 2010 I was working on the problem but an extended stay in Hospital killed the project.  The question has been brought up again.  I don't personally know of anyone who has successfully done it.

Or how about running 45 Schofield in a 45 Colt '92??

A curious but weak mind wants to know ........................................
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 01:07:46 pm »

Not even a "Nibble??"
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wildman1
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 05:36:40 am »

Alright.
I'll bite.
Just ta help ya out CM.
Nothing to add.
At least about 45 spl in 45 Colt 92's.
wM1
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greyhawk
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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 06:37:41 am »

Not even a "Nibble??"


I believe ya got it right the first time - a too short round in a 92 is gonna be seriously difficult
1) ifn ya block/pad the rear end of the carrier then it gets difficult to stop the round from flippin up skywards in mid cycle - when said carrier lifts - thats what the narrer rails at back behind the rim groove are for (you know that bit)
2) similar prblem at thee front end - feeding relies on boolit nose encountering roof of chamber to help bring the nether end up thru the grooves in the guide rails - so it is in line with nbore to chamber - this is why winchester originals feed just that bit better than fakes that use dead straigth wall cases (compaere a 38/40 to a 357 mag or a 44/40 vs 44mag - the winchester round wid its little bit of bottle neck just is slicker n quicker -)  -- back to th chase -----with a too short round the bolt is gonna push it forwards ok but the nose is gonna jam into the works above the chamber - its gonna miss the hole - cuz there nothin to turn its rocket like 45 degree forward travel into horizontal forward motion - gee that bit sounded technical didnt it !!!
This whole deal would be easy in a toggle link by comparison - ifn that is too hard - then a 92 is much closer to impossible  -- all this should be just aboot enough to get ya back to try again  Grin --- you the guy tole me I s wastin me time on them pistols - (that worked)  - this idee is a more waste of time project IMHO . of course when ya get it workin ya just done somethin almost impossible so thats payoff (if ya have time to spare an the degree of stubborness required)
All of the above is totally my surmise - I never tried it - see no reason to do so - have fooled with 92's a lot - but - always ya learn some new stuff.

heres a story for ya - discussin a 92 job with a mate this afternoon - he rebarrelled a 32/20 for one of our guys - fits the sites with a lil laser thingy hes got - at the range they put a nice group in the far left edge of target frame - near blew one leg off it - move the sites till they all skeyew in the dovetails n it olnly comes across aboot 2inches (this all at 50 yards) now that aint right ! 2 or 3 inches at 50 is a minor movement of iron sights - first thought was magazine interference but that were not it - so back to the shop and yank out the barl - whaddaya reckon??
Barrel maker has profiled the tube for him n took it a tad too small - shoulder is not bedding properly on the front of the action - wants to disappear inside the thread on one side but bedding enough on tother side -- so he makes a sleeve/bush thing so he ends up with like a washer between action and barl shoulder - all is good in the camp again - we in the black wid first shot .
Imagine the stresses in the steel of that barl !!!!all from a simple lil ooooops took too much off that last cut!!! 
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King Medallion
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 11:51:58 am »

All right, I'll say it. .45's don't belong in a 92. There, I said it.  Cheesy
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Scattered Thumbs
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 12:14:18 pm »

All right, I'll say it. .45's don't belong in a 92. There, I said it.  Cheesy

And you said it right. Grin

I'll sign under.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 12:33:41 pm »

HEY KM!!

In principal (Skule Suit dude) I must agree.  '92s should be 38-40 or 44-40.  However ... "Winter is Coming" (Stolen famous HBO series line) and I'm thinking about starting up the C45S in a '92 project again.  Just a little something to tide me over till Spring occurs again.  I run C45S or 45 Squirt in all my 45 Cal Toggle Link Rifles .... so .... Why not a '92.  It's already been done in the Fish. so .........

Besides, If I can get a 45 '92 to run C45S, then I have an excuse to chase down a 16 inch, '92 Trapper Take Down in 45.  Or ..... make one.   Cool
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Scattered Thumbs
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 03:25:14 pm »

HEY KM!!

In principal (Skule Suit dude) I must agree.  '92s should be 38-40, 44-40 or 32-20.  However ... "Winter is Coming" (Stolen famous HBO series line) and I'm thinking about starting up the C45S in a '92 project again.  Just a little something to tide me over till Spring occurs again.  I run C45S or 45 Squirt in all my 45 Cal Toggle Link Rifles .... so .... Why not a '92.  It's already been done in the Fish. so .........

Besides, If I can get a 45 '92 to run C45S, then I have an excuse to chase down a 16 inch, '92 Trapper Take Down in 45.  Or ..... make one.   Cool

There. Fixed it for you. Grin


PS. On second thoughts why not save youself some aggravation and get a .32-20 92 right out of the bat. Roll Eyes

PS 2. If you are looking for a Winter occupation you can try to go hunt a couple  of Kodiaks. Grin

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Dusty Boddams
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 06:11:43 pm »

Coffinmaker, I've kicked this idea around for a few years now with the only difference being 45 Acp. I've not tore up anything yet just a lot of measuring and looking. The c45s would mirror all the same issues. It occurs to me if someone could get there hands on a Winchester 92 already chambered and running 45 acp that were from South America could jump us light years ahead on building a working gun. The cartridge guides are so critical with the stubby short fat cartridge. It would be nice to take a detailed look!  Dusty Boddams
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greyhawk
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 09:12:46 pm »

HEY KM!!

In principal (Skule Suit dude) I must agree.  '92s should be 38-40 or 44-40.  However ... "Winter is Coming" (Stolen famous HBO series line) and I'm thinking about starting up the C45S in a '92 project again.  Just a little something to tide me over till Spring occurs again.  I run C45S or 45 Squirt in all my 45 Cal Toggle Link Rifles .... so .... Why not a '92.  It's already been done in the Fish. so .........

Besides, If I can get a 45 '92 to run C45S, then I have an excuse to chase down a 16 inch, '92 Trapper Take Down in 45.  Or ..... make one.   Cool

thought ya might like my 92 trapper/short rifle 44/40, 17" barl , incomplete project but it shoots real nice (most of my projects are incomplete - always in a hurry to get a few shots off - always go back to tidy up loose edges) comparison rifle is an original 32/20
ifn I wuz doin this again it would be half round half octagon instead of the heavy full octagon. 


* 92 trapper.jpeg (79.18 KB, 800x480 - viewed 51 times.)
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greyhawk
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2017, 07:08:01 pm »

Just a little progress report - I am partway through a '92 conversion from 32/20 to 44/40 - got deviated some - when I stripped my pattern gun (44/40) I found a busted firing pin so had to make one of those in the middle of it all -- this conversion is not a project for the faint hearted - every little cut and angle in the innards of these things is there for a specific purpose - there is absolutely zero room for error - change one dimension just a tiny bit and you end up with several other things that dont work!
I'll git er done but if ya were payin someone an hourly rate - the cost of this would be ridiculous.
So far
1) cut off and reprofile saddle ring fitting (this will be a 24" rifle) emery dress the reciever (shoulda done this last it will need a touch up after the work is done)
2) old barrel polished and reprofiled - recut crown - recut threads to fit - make a packing washer for threaded end (barl is from a 73 that was rebarrelled  - this might be temporary but if it shoots ok its there to stay)
3) scratch built new firing pin
4) cartridge lifter modified and fitted for 44/40
5) right hand side cartridge guide modified
6) frame bored for larger magazine tube 
7) in progress - hogging out the reciever behind the loading gate to take the larger case - I reckon when thats done we about halfway
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 07:51:54 pm »

Oh that's coming nicely.  Will it however ..... contain 10 rounds??
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 08:28:37 pm »

Just a general question, not trying to hijack anything but how close is the 1892 to the 1894 externally where the forend meets the recvr? Would 1894 forend wood go on an 1892? Naturally, a round bbl to a round bbl.Thanks

Thanks, Greyhawk
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greyhawk
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2017, 05:03:17 am »

Just a general question, not trying to hijack anything but how close is the 1892 to the 1894 externally where the forend meets the recvr? Would 1894 forend wood go on an 1892? Naturally, a round bbl to a round bbl.Thanks

identical -------just measured both to be sure
buttstock will interchange with some minor inletting internally too (they a little different where clearance for the mainspring is but is easy)
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greyhawk
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 06:09:31 am »

Oh that's coming nicely.  Will it however ..... contain 10 rounds??

Yeah its a rifle length 24"- gonna be half round half octagon so it will take 11 ok
I also have a little short rifle 18 inch - it takes 9 counting the carrier round - you MIGHT get ten in 18inches - gotta do three things
1) must have a hollow metal follower (mine is solid)
2) End plug neat and as short as possible
3) maybe wind a new magazine spring - finer wire and less turns (mine is 94 turns of .6mm wire @ almost 5 turns per inch) - a factory 32/20 spring is same turns per inch but .5mm wire
Even then you might not quite get it - and as always - going for that last little bit ? you get a tiny burr on a rim of the first cartridge in the mag or a grain of unburned smokeyless in there and a hang up - number ten wont feed - stuck in the mag!!!!

This project is trying me right out ! Every little cut and nick and angle in there is precise and specific and crucial for correct function - get one thing slightly wrong and its like a row of dominoes.
I shot it this afternoon to check function - put an old clapped out 44 barl on it and got everything ok except for the feed rails - had to steal the real ones from my short rifle - so back to the drawing board on those. Once thats done the rest is plain sailing - magazine, fit the proper barrel find some wood.     
 
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2017, 09:56:36 pm »

Greyhawk,

Oops.  I was inquiring 10 rounds in the unfinished 17inch rifle in your foto.  The bottom rifle.  But, with it being 17inch and an unsuccessful fit of 10 in an 18inch rifle, it's back to the C45S.

I had a similar problem when building my first 16inch Trapper Rifle (Octagional barrel).  Couldn't get 10 innit.  That little problem is what begat the "45 Squirt."  Also required a radically modified Carrier Block.  The super modified Carrier was eliminated by Adirondack Jack's unit with the spring loaded flipper cartridge stop.

Guns-R-Fun!!
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greyhawk
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2017, 01:10:28 am »

Greyhawk,

Oops.  I was inquiring 10 rounds in the unfinished 17inch rifle in your foto.  The bottom rifle.  But, with it being 17inch and an unsuccessful fit of 10 in an 18inch rifle, it's back to the C45S.

I had a similar problem when building my first 16inch Trapper Rifle (Octagional barrel).  Couldn't get 10 innit.  That little problem is what begat the "45 Squirt."  Also required a radically modified Carrier Block.  The super modified Carrier was eliminated by Adirondack Jack's unit with the spring loaded flipper cartridge stop.

Guns-R-Fun!!

Coffinmaker -
checked my measures and info - the unfinished project is 18inch - 17 inch was the old barrel out of it and would only take nine no matter what you did  - I made a proper follower and tested it just now - yes  an 18 inch rifle will take ten full length rounds - all my ammo is assembled to correct length for operation in toggle link guns - where some of this stuff goes skewy is a 92 will take ammo a decent bit over standard length and still function - particularly a 32/20 or 25/20 - -- you migtht noticed I cut about an inch off the stock of that project gun - was never that keen on the look of the trappers - they always looked sawed off to me - where a 20inch carbine just has nice proportions - I would like to turn the barrel down to half round instead of the full octagon, although the extra weight I think helps keep it on track shooting - and I dont wanna pull the barrel to turn it down
 I sure would enjoy a look at the innards of those two modifieds you describe - a lot of thought and clever work went into that
cheers
yeah guns are fun!!!
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Blackpowder Burn
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Smoke & Lightning


« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2017, 09:44:25 pm »

Not to hijack this, but I have a custom '92 built with the opposite goal.  It is chambered in 32-20, has a 28" octagonal barrel and holds 18 rounds of ammo.  A 19th century assault rifle!  Grin


* IMG_0567.jpg (215.24 KB, 1599x256 - viewed 39 times.)
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greyhawk
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2017, 11:26:06 pm »

Not to hijack this, but I have a custom '92 built with the opposite goal.  It is chambered in 32-20, has a 28" octagonal barrel and holds 18 rounds of ammo.  A 19th century assault rifle!  Grin



hmmmmmm --- nice!!
did you build that??
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Blackpowder Burn
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Smoke & Lightning


« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2017, 10:42:35 pm »

No, I bought it a couple of years ago from an old gentleman getting out of CAS for health reasons.  The action dates to 1898, but was never built into a rifle until 1995, along with a couple of others.  It was built by a now deceased gunsmith in Conroe, Texas.

I never really cared for '92's until I got this one.  Really slick, not to mention unique.
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greyhawk
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2017, 09:02:50 pm »

Greyhawk,

Oops.  I was inquiring 10 rounds in the unfinished 17inch rifle in your foto.  The bottom rifle.  But, with it being 17inch and an unsuccessful fit of 10 in an 18inch rifle, it's back to the C45S.

I had a similar problem when building my first 16inch Trapper Rifle (Octagional barrel).  Couldn't get 10 innit.  That little problem is what begat the "45 Squirt."  Also required a radically modified Carrier Block.  The super modified Carrier was eliminated by Adirondack Jack's unit with the spring loaded flipper cartridge stop.

Guns-R-Fun!!

Hey Coffinmaker
Thought you might be interested - project completed - all the old bits are back in the old gun - all the conversion bits work a treat - am in process of ordering a new barrel (mainly because I anticipate tightening of laws here and we gonna wake up one day and the new barrel through the mail deal is terminated) so -- from 32/20 to 38/40
* refurbished old 38-40 barrel from an 1873 - polished it out with steel wool and jewellers rouge as best I could - it shoots ten black loads quite ok but dirties up quicker than a new one would - a bit more load development might help there but -- live with it!
* internal work (theres a lotta work) changes to cartridge lifter including a new side plunger.
* refit cartridge guides for larger case
* made a new nose part (the cartridge stopper) for the near side guide
* bore out the frame for bigger magazine tube
* relieve the frame behind loading gate to clear the larger case
* cut stopper notch in near side of frame for lifter plunger
* open up bolt face
* open up ejector plunger
* fit new extractor or relieve the claw (I had a 94 bolt and extractor here from scrap so used that (exact same fit)
* made a new magazine tube , follower, stopper and screw (I used an old piece of electrical conduit but 16mm steel curtain rod from china is just right size inside - thinner wall but would work) 
*new magazine spring
I have a nice little short forend wood I made from local timber years ago, that takes a steel rifle nosecap - but need to cut two new dovetails and fill an old one in to fit it - still deciding what I want here - really like the look of BP Burns' - 28 inch rifle - with a short forend and my short stock (in the picture now) I think mine would look very similar - anyway - the good news is I got the action right - this thing is about as slick as a 92 comes - I made a couple of mistakes along the way - eyballing stuff I shoulda measured !
If you paid me any kind of menial wage for the time spent - there proly be enough money to buy two new brownings !!! but eaxtremely satisfying to get it done right . 
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2017, 09:25:51 pm »

Greyhawk, if you don't mind, where are you getting your barrel from? New or used? I'm trying to line up stuff for another possible musket project. Thinking that I might try a 93 or 94 Marlin musket. They do exist! Thanks, Ed
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greyhawk
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 09:06:38 am »

Greyhawk, if you don't mind, where are you getting your barrel from? New or used? I'm trying to line up stuff for another possible musket project. Thinking that I might try a 93 or 94 Marlin musket. They do exist! Thanks, Ed

Ed
The barrel I built this around was a tired barrel out of my sons '73 - longish story - friend of ours had taken on a rebarrel job for another club member and had a little senior moment - when they pulled the barrel outta the Rossi he eyeballed it and assumed the thread was same as winchester - close but - nearest metric equivalent I guess - got it over half way in and stuck - got it back out and almost stuffed the reciever thread in the process - tapped that out and got the rossi back together ok - left him with a spare barrel so he did a cheap job on the 73 to give the barrel a home - I looked long and hard at the old one - it slugged neat at .401 - bore rough - so I polished it out with steel wool and rouge - am getting better at that - took a little bit off it to get rid of a rust spot and recrowned it - (have rescued several ML barrels and even brought my 22/250 back to life) - anyway this was the first time I have done a calibre conversion on a 92 and got it done nice in the end - the old barrel shoots ok but I think not long in the future we will be banned from buying a spare so I intend to move now . Would like a Green Mountain barrel but dont know if I can get one into Aus - otherwise we can get a local "Sprinter" barrel - twist is a bit fast but they shoot ok - he will profile it and cut the flats on an octagonal for a price. I forgot the picture on my last post so hooking it on here 


* model 92 - 38-40project.jpeg (138.09 KB, 480x800 - viewed 39 times.)
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